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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 9:02:52 GMT -5
I have run into a brick wall, banged my head badly and now I find I have no understanding of Christianity what so ever. I need a constructive tutorial on what the Christian message was really all about. I will start with several quick questions.
Why do most religious conversations persist in their obsession with sin? Why are religious practices enmeshed is rules, dogma and parsed doctrine?
If there is a "God", was all of "His" handiwork really directed toward a collection of sycophants who are constantly worried about his mercy and grace and forgiveness for sins real and imagined and who spend hours talking about being saved while all about there are those who might benefit from a simple gesture of sincere love and compassion? Why isn't the equation inverted, why don't we spend most of our time talking about how to show love and mercy toward our fellowman and let all of the angst about whether or not we or someone else is saved and will be going to heaven remain quietly somewhere in the background?
I have meandered through several of our threads and it is tough to find posts of people "joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world". Why is that. Why are we more captivated by the symbolic meaning of the crucifixion than the resurrection?
When I get up in the morning and take a stroll through the garden and back into the forest, I don't think about all of the flora and fauna that had to die in order to have this rich soil that supports new growth. Nope, I think, "Wow, look at that little sprout, I didn't see that yesterday, somehow it just sprung-up to play it's little role in the infinite web of existence. I wonder how I can best play out my role, today? And then, I walk on!"
I am not a conspiracy theorist (I don't think), but I have a bad feeling about all of this. Somehow, I think that all of the focus on sin and original sin and rules and dogma has more to do with providing somebody (or somebodies) with power and control over me and my fellow. Strikes me that "overlords" can't control if they can't convince their followers of their weaknesses and failures. Religions seem to have proven the case, they have succeeded in amassing power and control and convincing their flock of their sins and errors requiring endless forgiveness. All the while we casually walk among the unnoticed masses of our neighbors in need, wondering if WE have been saved! Is that really the message that Jesus intended us to hear?
Just focusing on the gospels, aren't most of those homilies and parables about loving our neighbor? (And not about obsessive atonement for sin?) I am not asking about where Paul and St. Augustine and rest led the flock afterwards, I am just confused by how I so totally missed the point of it all. For me it is more about the opening up to new life, the resurrection if you will, and not the constant groveling for things I did and didn't do.
Hey I am as sinful as the next guy, probably more so than most, but I ain't helpin' no one if that is all I think about all day long.
Let the tutorial begin! Anxious pupil awaits.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 25, 2015 12:14:30 GMT -5
Read Romans 7 across to Romans 8. As one of our older workers said Romans 7 is Saul, and Romans 8 is Paul. It's hard to step back enough form Romans to see a big picture but the key seems to be Romans 8:1. I don't have time for more now but I've been reading through Romans and can post about what some of it meant to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 12:28:10 GMT -5
I have run into a brick wall, banged my head badly and now I find I have no understanding of Christianity what so ever. I need a constructive tutorial on what the Christian message was really all about. I will start with several quick questions. Why do most religious conversations persist in their obsession with sin? Why are religious practices enmeshed is rules, dogma and parsed doctrine? If there is a "God", was all of "His" handiwork really directed toward a collection of sycophants who are constantly worried about his mercy and grace and forgiveness for sins real and imagined and who spend hours talking about being saved while all about there are those who might benefit from a simple gesture of sincere love and compassion? Why isn't the equation inverted, why don't we spend most of our time talking about how to show love and mercy toward our fellowman and let all of the angst about whether or not we or someone else is saved and will be going to heaven remain quietly somewhere in the background? I have meandered through several of our threads and it is tough to find posts of people "joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world". Why is that. Why are we more captivated by the symbolic meaning of the crucifixion than the resurrection? When I get up in the morning and take a stroll through the garden and back into the forest, I don't think about all of the flora and fauna that had to die in order to have this rich soil that supports new growth. Nope, I think, "Wow, look at that little sprout, I didn't see that yesterday, somehow it just sprung-up to play it's little role in the infinite web of existence. I wonder how I can best play out my role, today? And then, I walk on!" I am not a conspiracy theorist (I don't think), but I have a bad feeling about all of this. Somehow, I think that all of the focus on sin and original sin and rules and dogma has more to do with providing somebody (or somebodies) with power and control over me and my fellow. Strikes me that "overlords" can't control if they can't convince their followers of their weaknesses and failures. Religions seem to have proven the case, they have succeeded in amassing power and control and convincing their flock of their sins and errors requiring endless forgiveness. All the while we casually walk among the unnoticed masses of our neighbors in need, wondering if WE have been saved! Is that really the message that Jesus intended us to hear? Just focusing on the gospels, aren't most of those homilies and parables about loving our neighbor? (And not about obsessive atonement for sin?) I am not asking about where Paul and St. Augustine and rest led the flock afterwards, I am just confused by how I so totally missed the point of it all. For me it is more about the opening up to new life, the resurrection if you will, and not the constant groveling for things I did and didn't do. Hey I am as sinful as the next guy, probably more so than most, but I ain't helpin' no one if that is all I think about all day long. Let the tutorial begin! Anxious pupil awaits. your best answer is to re-read the new testament that's where the answer lies...
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 12:37:53 GMT -5
your best answer is to re-read the new testament that's where the answer lies... Thanks. I forgot, we are on summer recess.
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 12:42:52 GMT -5
Read Romans 7 across to Romans 8. As one of our older workers said Romans 7 is Saul, and Romans 8 is Paul. It's hard to step back enough form Romans to see a big picture but the key seems to be Romans 8:1. I don't have time for more now but I've been reading through Romans and can post about what some of it meant to me. Thanks Jesse, I will take a glance at Romans 7&8 and look forward to your thoughts when you have more time.
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 15:19:18 GMT -5
Read Romans 7 across to Romans 8. As one of our older workers said Romans 7 is Saul, and Romans 8 is Paul. It's hard to step back enough form Romans to see a big picture but the key seems to be Romans 8:1. I don't have time for more now but I've been reading through Romans and can post about what some of it meant to me. Hey Jesse, as Ricky Ricardo once said, "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do." I did my homework, chapters 7 and 8. By the end of Chapter 7, I could hear the death rattles of my own impending death from sin. I literally allowed myself to just imagine sitting with a few of my friends and listening to Paul's analysis. I have no doubt that by the end of Chapter 7, I too would have been convinced that I was a "wretched man" (strange I felt pretty good coming into the meeting, I say to myself). So I ask myself, who is the real benefactor of Paul's (Saul's) analysis. Is "God" going to benefit from having yet another soul lashed to the ground for having tried to do what was right as he had been taught all of this life?. Are the listeners going to benefit, having been tongue lashed into a state of submission such that any hope of stepping out of the meeting and being truly compassionate to an unfortunate neighbor is rather unlikely? How about Paul? Might not a few of the listeners say to themselves, "Whoa this fellow speaks with such passion and conviction, maybe we ought to follow what he says, because then we will be saved." I am not trying to be disrespectful of other beliefs, I am just trying to get down to foundational concepts. Just Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, what do they record for us that Jesus actually said, believed and preached? We can deal with all of the interpretive overlay in the second half of the tutorial. But right now, as we think of Jesus on the Mount, or by the sea, or walking the dusty roads of Galilee what was it that he was trying to get those who followed him to understand? Many of the folk here on TMB know, love and live by the NT scriptures. That's cool. Unfortunately, I have no ability to quote scripture. I only know what I feel and I must admit to you that when I read or think about the Sermon on the Mount or when I think about that Samaritan coming down the road, I am not thinking about what a "wretched man" I am. Sorry, but I feel uplifted and impelled to higher aspirations. I guess what I feel is blastphemy to most of the faithful. I just can't get over there from here. If my choices are to spend my life in perpetual atonement because a couple of gardeners cracked the seal on the Book of Good and Evil in the dark recesses of human history or to do the little I can do for those who suffer around me today, I will choose the later. By most lights here on TMB, I guess that means that I have already packed by bags for a long, long stay in Hell. If that is the judgment, so be it, at least it was a choice made with sincerity. And strangely enough, I too feel that the choice is guided and informed by an awareness greater than self.
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Post by emy on Jul 25, 2015 15:29:09 GMT -5
Yknot, you didn't mention how you felt after ch 8.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 25, 2015 15:59:08 GMT -5
I have run into a brick wall, banged my head badly and now I find I have no understanding of Christianity what so ever. I need a constructive tutorial on what the Christian message was really all about. I will start with several quick questions. Why do most religious conversations persist in their obsession with sin? Why are religious practices enmeshed is rules, dogma and parsed doctrine? If there is a "God", was all of "His" handiwork really directed toward a collection of sycophants who are constantly worried about his mercy and grace and forgiveness for sins real and imagined and who spend hours talking about being saved while all about there are those who might benefit from a simple gesture of sincere love and compassion? Why isn't the equation inverted, why don't we spend most of our time talking about how to show love and mercy toward our fellowman and let all of the angst about whether or not we or someone else is saved and will be going to heaven remain quietly somewhere in the background? I have meandered through several of our threads and it is tough to find posts of people "joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world". Why is that. Why are we more captivated by the symbolic meaning of the crucifixion than the resurrection? When I get up in the morning and take a stroll through the garden and back into the forest, I don't think about all of the flora and fauna that had to die in order to have this rich soil that supports new growth. Nope, I think, "Wow, look at that little sprout, I didn't see that yesterday, somehow it just sprung-up to play it's little role in the infinite web of existence. I wonder how I can best play out my role, today? And then, I walk on!" I am not a conspiracy theorist (I don't think), but I have a bad feeling about all of this. Somehow, I think that all of the focus on sin and original sin and rules and dogma has more to do with providing somebody (or somebodies) with power and control over me and my fellow.
Strikes me that "overlords" can't control if they can't convince their followers of their weaknesses and failures.
Religions seem to have proven the case, they have succeeded in amassing power and control and convincing their flock of their sins and errors requiring endless forgiveness.
All the while we casually walk among the unnoticed masses of our neighbors in need, wondering if WE have been saved! Is that really the message that Jesus intended us to hear? Just focusing on the gospels, aren't most of those homilies and parables about loving our neighbor? (And not about obsessive atonement for sin?) I am not asking about where Paul and St. Augustine and rest led the flock afterwards, I am just confused by how I so totally missed the point of it all. For me it is more about the opening up to new life, the resurrection if you will, and not the constant groveling for things I did and didn't do. Hey I am as sinful as the next guy, probably more so than most, but I ain't helpin' no one if that is all I think about all day long. Let the tutorial begin! Anxious pupil awaits.
Thank You, yknot
"Somehow, I think that all of the focus on sin and original sin and rules and dogma has more to do with providing somebody (or somebodies) with power and control over me and my fellow. Strikes me that "overlords" can't control if they can't convince their followers of their weaknesses and failures. Religions seem to have proven the case, they have succeeded in amassing power and control and convincing their flock of their sins and errors requiring endless forgiveness. All the while we casually walk among the unnoticed masses of our neighbors in need, wondering if WE have been saved! " This is what all religions do & have done since time immemorial. It isn't about Jesus or Christianity, it is what all religions do.
It has been ongoing ever since human-kind began to realize that certain things happened for which that they did understand the cause.
It didn't take much for a shaman, witch-doctor, priest;( -whatever you want to call them) to have enough perception of how he/she could use that lack of knowledge & concern of the people to provide food & material necessities for themselves by convincing the people that they had sinned.
It really didn't take a lot of perception on the part of someone in the group to understand this. That person became the leader. The priest could intercede for them if they would give him/her material necessities.
Look it happened with the animal sacrifices in the OT of the bible! The priest ate the sacrificed animal!
So it has been throughout the ages!
Still does today!
The people who support the material needs of the Workers still do so today .
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 25, 2015 17:18:58 GMT -5
Romans 7 is man under the OT law, don't stop at the end of Roman 7! Keep reading! The turning point is Romans 8:1 which is man under the NT. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
No condemnation.
God made man with free will, and I think, with the hope he would use that free will to choose what is right and good. There was only one rule in the Garden, "do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Adam and Eve chose to disobey. Then Cain murdered Abel. Not a good start for man. Gen 6:5 "GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." So man got some guidance in the form of the ten commandments and the Levitical laws.
Law is inanimate, when a law is broken the person breaking is found guilty and punishment is automatic. It is on their record, and never goes away. That is the way the OT dealt with breaking the laws. Now check out Romans 4:8 "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin". How is that possible? Paul talks about the faith of Abraham; Romans 4:22 "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." 4:23 "Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Justification there means "the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him". That is Romans 8:1. No condemnation. It's as if the record keeper of our life uses white out on the entry - it's gone, and we are not held guilty. There is a transformation of our hearts and minds. When we're there we can live a life that bears the fruits of repentance, be at peace, and truly be free to live the commandment to love our neighbor (those closest to us at any given moment) as our self. Because we are not condemned all of our condemnation towards others can melt away, and we can truly live the golden rule and love our neighbors as they are.
The last verses of Romans 8 are wonderful;
Who is he that condemeth, indeed. Good words for TMB.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 25, 2015 17:28:59 GMT -5
And remember, you were a sinner upon taking your first breath. The salesman created a need for his product.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 18:11:06 GMT -5
I have run into a brick wall, banged my head badly and now I find I have no understanding of Christianity what so ever. I need a constructive tutorial on what the Christian message was really all about. I will start with several quick questions. Why do most religious conversations persist in their obsession with sin? Why are religious practices enmeshed is rules, dogma and parsed doctrine? If there is a "God", was all of "His" handiwork really directed toward a collection of sycophants who are constantly worried about his mercy and grace and forgiveness for sins real and imagined and who spend hours talking about being saved while all about there are those who might benefit from a simple gesture of sincere love and compassion? Why isn't the equation inverted, why don't we spend most of our time talking about how to show love and mercy toward our fellowman and let all of the angst about whether or not we or someone else is saved and will be going to heaven remain quietly somewhere in the background? I have meandered through several of our threads and it is tough to find posts of people "joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world". Why is that. Why are we more captivated by the symbolic meaning of the crucifixion than the resurrection? When I get up in the morning and take a stroll through the garden and back into the forest, I don't think about all of the flora and fauna that had to die in order to have this rich soil that supports new growth. Nope, I think, "Wow, look at that little sprout, I didn't see that yesterday, somehow it just sprung-up to play it's little role in the infinite web of existence. I wonder how I can best play out my role, today? And then, I walk on!" I am not a conspiracy theorist (I don't think), but I have a bad feeling about all of this. Somehow, I think that all of the focus on sin and original sin and rules and dogma has more to do with providing somebody (or somebodies) with power and control over me and my fellow. Strikes me that "overlords" can't control if they can't convince their followers of their weaknesses and failures. Religions seem to have proven the case, they have succeeded in amassing power and control and convincing their flock of their sins and errors requiring endless forgiveness. All the while we casually walk among the unnoticed masses of our neighbors in need, wondering if WE have been saved! Is that really the message that Jesus intended us to hear? Just focusing on the gospels, aren't most of those homilies and parables about loving our neighbor? (And not about obsessive atonement for sin?) I am not asking about where Paul and St. Augustine and rest led the flock afterwards, I am just confused by how I so totally missed the point of it all. For me it is more about the opening up to new life, the resurrection if you will, and not the constant groveling for things I did and didn't do. Hey I am as sinful as the next guy, probably more so than most, but I ain't helpin' no one if that is all I think about all day long. Let the tutorial begin! Anxious pupil awaits. and you will never know or have an understanding of true Christianity if you only accept God as an if [If there is a "God"] God is a spirit and unless that spirit abides in you will be totally unknowing of Him or His Christ anyone can read all the Bible, know it from front to back recite every passage and could even take you to any place you wish them to but still not come to the knowledge of the Father and the Son, without them the Bible has no real value spiritually
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Post by bubbles on Jul 25, 2015 18:27:44 GMT -5
I have run into a brick wall, banged my head badly and now I find I have no understanding of Christianity what so ever. I need a constructive tutorial on what the Christian message was really all about. I will start with several quick questions. Yknot I can understand why one would feel this way on TMB. NONE of my christian friends support me coming here. Why do most religious conversations persist in their obsession with sin? Why are religious practices enmeshed is rules, dogma and parsed doctrine? Yknot Conversations turn and twist in real life. Especially if your brain dances like mine does. Hmm I dislike rules. To be fair we try to comprehend through knowing/understanding the word of God how it all fits together. For me christianity has to work filtering through my daily choices and decisions and trying to live my life guided by scripture. Most of the time. I rely heavily on the conviction of the holy spirit/inner witness if I make mistakes. Its not a question of god what cereal should I eat? Its more about trying to be kind show compassion understanding, be a listening ear. Living with my conscience. If there is a "God", was all of "His" handiwork really directed toward a collection of sycophants who are constantly worried about his mercy and grace and forgiveness for sins real and imagined and who spend hours talking about being saved while all about there are those who might benefit from a simple gesture of sincere love and compassion? Why isn't the equation inverted, why don't we spend most of our time talking about how to show love and mercy toward our fellowman and let all of the angst about whether or not we or someone else is saved and will be going to heaven remain quietly somewhere in the background? Yknot Probably because we are responding to posts and questions. There are many fascinating topics that I just wont begin to discuss because of the nature of TMB. In my life im surrounded by non believers whom I love. I can never speak of who I am as believer and it doesnt matter. I enjoy them as fellow human beings. I enjoy their company. They or some are colorful personalities. Gods handiwork was spread abroad his creation. All. I have meandered through several of our threads and it is tough to find posts of people "joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world". Why is that. Why are we more captivated by the symbolic meaning of the crucifixion than the resurrection? Yknot By Joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world. Do you mean helping the poor clothing the naked feeding the hungry? My answer is yes I try to understand wisdom calling out in the streets and responding to that. In fact it is a governing factor of my existense or has become that. When I get up in the morning and take a stroll through the garden and back into the forest, I don't think about all of the flora and fauna that had to die in order to have this rich soil that supports new growth. Nope, I think, "Wow, look at that little sprout, I didn't see that yesterday, somehow it just sprung-up to play it's little role in the infinite web of existence. I wonder how I can best play out my role, today? And then, I walk on!" Yknot ..I love to watch my veg and flowers sprout the black bird and thrush tracking through the plot searching for worms. My heart bursts with affection towards them when little dove wanders about on her own looking for seeds or my well fed cat soon to be invaded by a pup studies the birdlife all day while not sleeping from different spots around the house. I am not a conspiracy theorist (I don't think), but I have a bad feeling about all of this. Somehow, I think that all of the focus on sin and original sin and rules and dogma has more to do with providing somebody (or somebodies) with power and control over me and my fellow. Strikes me that "overlords" can't control if they can't convince their followers of their weaknesses and failures. Religions seem to have proven the case, they have succeeded in amassing power and control and convincing their flock of their sins and errors requiring endless forgiveness. All the while we casually walk among the unnoticed masses of our neighbors in need, wondering if WE have been saved! Is that really the message that Jesus intended us to hear? Yknot The message of Jesus is love. Just focusing on the gospels, aren't most of those homilies and parables about loving our neighbor? (And not about obsessive atonement for sin?) I am not asking about where Paul and St. Augustine and rest led the flock afterwards, I am just confused by how I so totally missed the point of it all. For me it is more about the opening up to new life, the resurrection if you will, and not the constant groveling for things I did and didn't do. Yknot If I can achieve and grasp what love really means I think I would have achieved what I was placed here for. Hey I am as sinful as the next guy, probably more so than most, but I ain't helpin' no one if that is all I think about all day long. Yknot Ditto its true. Let the tutorial begin! Anxious pupil awaits. As always yknot you ask thought provoking questions. I always love reading your posts. I hear you. I chose to break up the sentances. Copying and pasting difficult on phone The bible in its entirety is complex to say the least.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 18:42:38 GMT -5
Read Romans 7 across to Romans 8. As one of our older workers said Romans 7 is Saul, and Romans 8 is Paul. It's hard to step back enough form Romans to see a big picture but the key seems to be Romans 8:1. I don't have time for more now but I've been reading through Romans and can post about what some of it meant to me. Hey Jesse, as Ricky Ricardo once said, "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do." I did my homework, chapters 7 and 8. By the end of Chapter 7, I could hear the death rattles of my own impending death from sin. I literally allowed myself to just imagine sitting with a few of my friends and listening to Paul's analysis. I have no doubt that by the end of Chapter 7, I too would have been convinced that I was a "wretched man" (strange I felt pretty good coming into the meeting, I say to myself). So I ask myself, who is the real benefactor of Paul's (Saul's) analysis. Is "God" going to benefit from having yet another soul lashed to the ground for having tried to do what was right as he had been taught all of this life?. Are the listeners going to benefit, having been tongue lashed into a state of submission such that any hope of stepping out of the meeting and being truly compassionate to an unfortunate neighbor is rather unlikely? How about Paul? Might not a few of the listeners say to themselves, "Whoa this fellow speaks with such passion and conviction, maybe we ought to follow what he says, because then we will be saved." I am not trying to be disrespectful of other beliefs, I am just trying to get down to foundational concepts. Just Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, what do they record for us that Jesus actually said, believed and preached? We can deal with all of the interpretive overlay in the second half of the tutorial. But right now, as we think of Jesus on the Mount, or by the sea, or walking the dusty roads of Galilee what was it that he was trying to get those who followed him to understand? Many of the folk here on TMB know, love and live by the NT scriptures. That's cool. Unfortunately, I have no ability to quote scripture. I only know what I feel and I must admit to you that when I read or think about the Sermon on the Mount or when I think about that Samaritan coming down the road, I am not thinking about what a "wretched man" I am. Sorry, but I feel uplifted and impelled to higher aspirations. I guess what I feel is blastphemy to most of the faithful. I just can't get over there from here. If my choices are to spend my life in perpetual atonement because a couple of gardeners cracked the seal on the Book of Good and Evil in the dark recesses of human history or to do the little I can do for those who suffer around me today, I will choose the later. By most lights here on TMB, I guess that means that I have already packed by bags for a long, long stay in Hell. If that is the judgment, so be it, at least it was a choice made with sincerity. And strangely enough, I too feel that the choice is guided and informed by an awareness greater than self. foundational concepts?
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
as to being resigned to hell don't worry its a dry heat...
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 18:44:58 GMT -5
This is what all religions do & have done since time immemorial. It isn't about Jesus or Christianity, it is what all religions do.
It has been ongoing ever since human-kind began to realize that certain things happened for which that they did understand the cause.
It didn't take much for a shaman, witch-doctor, priest;( -whatever you want to call them) to have enough perception of how he/she could use that lack of knowledge & concern of the people to provide food & material necessities for themselves by convincing the people that they had sinned.
It really didn't take a lot of perception on the part of someone in the group to understand this. That person became the leader. The priest could intercede for them if they would give him/her material necessities.
Look it happened with the animal sacrifices in the OT of the bible! The priest ate the sacrificed animal!
So it has been throughout the ages!
Still does today!
The people who support the material needs of the Workers still do so today . Good evening DMG. As we have noticed in previous conversations with each other, we tend to color our respective rhetorical styles with significantly different brushes. I tend to use smaller bristled brushes with a narrower profile. I am uncomfortable with broad brushes that color all of a topic mono-chromatically. I cannot speak of all religions, because I am not in possession of data regarding all religions. I am unable to speak of time immemorial, records of the human experience become spotty the further back you go. I do not support the hypothesis that being "unable to know" is a harbinger of bad behavior. I do believe in awe and the reality of phenomena beyond the comprehension of our species. Rather, it has been my experience that it is much too easy to embrace the beliefs of others without critical reflection and it is much too easy to dismiss the beliefs of others if they do not accord with our own experiences. As I look at things, it is the ease with which we can be trapped in these intellectual dead-ends that enables others to exploit our insecurities. It has been my experience that religion is not the only realm of human endeavor where such malefactors lurk. There are those capable/willing to exploit no matter what the endeavor. My comments reflect the dismay I feel that personal-engagement beyond self should be so manipulated, in my view, we all suffer as a consequence. [/quote]
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 18:46:06 GMT -5
Hey Jesse, as Ricky Ricardo once said, "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do." I did my homework, chapters 7 and 8. By the end of Chapter 7, I could hear the death rattles of my own impending death from sin. I literally allowed myself to just imagine sitting with a few of my friends and listening to Paul's analysis. I have no doubt that by the end of Chapter 7, I too would have been convinced that I was a "wretched man" (strange I felt pretty good coming into the meeting, I say to myself). So I ask myself, who is the real benefactor of Paul's (Saul's) analysis. Is "God" going to benefit from having yet another soul lashed to the ground for having tried to do what was right as he had been taught all of this life?. Are the listeners going to benefit, having been tongue lashed into a state of submission such that any hope of stepping out of the meeting and being truly compassionate to an unfortunate neighbor is rather unlikely? How about Paul? Might not a few of the listeners say to themselves, "Whoa this fellow speaks with such passion and conviction, maybe we ought to follow what he says, because then we will be saved." I am not trying to be disrespectful of other beliefs, I am just trying to get down to foundational concepts. Just Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, what do they record for us that Jesus actually said, believed and preached? We can deal with all of the interpretive overlay in the second half of the tutorial. But right now, as we think of Jesus on the Mount, or by the sea, or walking the dusty roads of Galilee what was it that he was trying to get those who followed him to understand? Many of the folk here on TMB know, love and live by the NT scriptures. That's cool. Unfortunately, I have no ability to quote scripture. I only know what I feel and I must admit to you that when I read or think about the Sermon on the Mount or when I think about that Samaritan coming down the road, I am not thinking about what a "wretched man" I am. Sorry, but I feel uplifted and impelled to higher aspirations. I guess what I feel is blastphemy to most of the faithful. I just can't get over there from here. If my choices are to spend my life in perpetual atonement because a couple of gardeners cracked the seal on the Book of Good and Evil in the dark recesses of human history or to do the little I can do for those who suffer around me today, I will choose the later. By most lights here on TMB, I guess that means that I have already packed by bags for a long, long stay in Hell. If that is the judgment, so be it, at least it was a choice made with sincerity. And strangely enough, I too feel that the choice is guided and informed by an awareness greater than self. foundational concepts?
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
as to being resigned to hell don't worry its a dry heat...
i have highlighted what is paramount before anything
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 18:47:47 GMT -5
And remember, you were a sinner upon taking your first breath. The salesman created a need for his product. Actually, I reject the assertion that I was a sinner from first breath.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 25, 2015 18:51:18 GMT -5
And remember, you were a sinner upon taking your first breath. The salesman created a need for his product. Actually, I reject the assertion that I was a sinner from first breath. I don't buy the concept of "original sin" either.
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 19:14:29 GMT -5
and you will never know or have an understanding of true Christianity if you only accept God as an if [If there is a "God"] God is a spirit and unless that spirit abides in you will be totally unknowing of Him or His Christ anyone can read all the Bible, know it from front to back recite every passage and could even take you to any place you wish them to but still not come to the knowledge of the Father and the Son, without them the Bible has no real value spiritually Virgo, I understand and accept your comment. But honesty and sincerity are also important to me at this stage of my life and on this search for deeper understanding that I pursue. I have tried to make it clear in prior posts on other threads that I am an agnostic, unable to truly know that which lies beyond. The comment "If there is a "God" is not intended to be disrespectful but rather an accurate reflection of my own spiritual development. Please do not be offended, I certainly accept and respect your faith and spiritual development. To ask oneself, what do I know, what can I learn, what should I accept on faith do not appear to me to be prima facie irreverent. If, in fact, "He walks with me and He talks with me" I would hope "He" would have enough respect for my sincerity to indulge my uncertainty. If the converse is true such that I shall be condemned to eternal damnation for failing to prostrate myself in blind obedience, then I accept that verdict as well. Quid pro quo is a human game, I would like my faith to transcend those tethers.
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 19:27:36 GMT -5
foundational concepts?
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
as to being resigned to hell don't worry its a dry heat...
Wally and Virgo, these verses resonate with my understanding of the intended message. My impression is that it is difficult enough to actually integrate these few messages into one's daily life that it could take a lifetime of habitual practice just to make a little progress toward that "Golden Mean" (not too much, not too little). Sorry but with such a clear, meaningful and sacred message, I can't imagine why we would weight ourselves down with self-imagery of the "wretched man" and distract ourselves with angst about our own salvation. Counter-intuitive to me, but as I said on another thread, I like being "Peculiar".
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 19:40:23 GMT -5
Yknot, you didn't mention how you felt after ch 8. Jesse and Emy, I don't have the spiritual maturity to really comprehend Romans 8. I think I understand verses 1 and 2 and they seem to resonate with my own feelings that there is something more importatn than being all bound up in the rules and dogma and missing the central point of our purpose. Part of my struggle with actually "feeling" Romans 8 is the struggle I have with the medieval personification of that which is transcendent. Lord, Master and similar personifications are difficult for me to process as I reflect on the transcendent. It's tough, I lack a meaningful vocabulary which is very isolating. I need a little time to reflect on your comments, Jesse and the reference you sent Emy. Thanks for the your thoughtful and personal thoughts and insight.
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 20:09:09 GMT -5
Yknot If I can achieve and grasp what love really means I think I would have achieved what I was placed here for. Hey bubbles, thanks for the comments: Bubbles said: Its not a question of god what cereal should I eat? Its more about trying to be kind show compassion understanding, be a listening ear. Living with my conscience.I am completely with you on this point, particularly the “listening ear”. Don’t we all, at one time or another just crave someone to listen. We are not always looking for an answer sometimes we only want a sounding board to hear our own thoughts. Bubles said: By Joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world. Do you mean helping the poor clothing the naked feeding the hungry? My answer is yes I try to understand wisdom calling out in the streets and responding to that. In fact it is a governing factor of my existense or has become thatNo not necessarily, bubbles. I am not talking about solving world hunger necessarily. I am thinking more of that simple touch on the shoulder that says “I am here if you need me.” Or that little bemused wink that says “I understand what you are feeling.” Or that comment to the grocery clerk, “I like your haircut. “ The simple acknowledgement, “you are not alone” could alleviate an enormous amount of suffering in our world and how joyful it is be to make those simple yet meaningful connections? Bubbles said: The message of Jesus is love.That was what I learned growing up as well bubbles. Somehow the message seems to be lost in a cacophony of disagreement and misunderstanding even among those who say they remain faithful. I wonder why. Was Jean-Paul Satre correct? Is there truly “No Exit”? Bubbles said: If I can achieve and grasp what love really means I think I would have achieved what I was placed here for.You and me, baby, there ain’t much else.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:16:08 GMT -5
and you will never know or have an understanding of true Christianity if you only accept God as an if [If there is a "God"] God is a spirit and unless that spirit abides in you will be totally unknowing of Him or His Christ anyone can read all the Bible, know it from front to back recite every passage and could even take you to any place you wish them to but still not come to the knowledge of the Father and the Son, without them the Bible has no real value spiritually Virgo, I understand and accept your comment. But honesty and sincerity are also important to me at this stage of my life and on this search for deeper understanding that I pursue. I have tried to make it clear in prior posts on other threads that I am an agnostic, unable to truly know that which lies beyond. The comment "If there is a "God" is not intended to be disrespectful but rather an accurate reflection of my own spiritual development. Please do not be offended, I certainly accept and respect your faith and spiritual development. To ask oneself, what do I know, what can I learn, what should I accept on faith do not appear to me to be prima facie irreverent. If, in fact, "He walks with me and He talks with me" I would hope "He" would have enough respect for my sincerity to indulge my uncertainty. If the converse is true such that I shall be condemned to eternal damnation for failing to prostrate myself in blind obedience, then I accept that verdict as well. Quid pro quo is a human game, I would like my faith to transcend those tethers. "I" or our thoughts regarding what do I know, what can I learn, what should I accept on faith need to be thrown out the window, what we know means nothing to God but what He can do for us, we must put ourselves aside for Him to enter and teach and change us, it is all His work and we must have the faith to let Him do so to go deeper in our experience/understanding can only happen in a spiritual sense can only happen if we let God take us there
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Post by placid-void on Jul 25, 2015 20:38:48 GMT -5
"I" or our thoughts regarding what do I know, what can I learn, what should I accept on faith need to be thrown out the window, what we know means nothing to God but what He can do for us, we must put ourselves aside for Him to enter and teach and change us, it is all His work and we must have the faith to let Him do so to go deeper in our experience/understanding can only happen in a spiritual sense can only happen if we let God take us there On this point, Virgo, we must remain in disagreement. I accept your perspective, but I do not share that same perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:26:18 GMT -5
On this point, Virgo, we must remain in disagreement. I accept your perspective, but I do not share that same perspective. all the best in your journey
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Post by What Hat on Jul 25, 2015 21:34:14 GMT -5
Thanks, Jesse, for the recommendation of Romans 7 and 8, which I've just finished reading. I find some correspondence to the Tao Te Ching, which I just began reading today for some fun. all the world knows good but if that becomes good this becomes bad .... sages therefore perform effortless deeds and teach wordless lessons they don't look after all the things that arise or depend on them as they develop or claim them when they reach perfection and because they don't claim them they are never without them Today I read 10 of the 80 or so verses that constitute the Tao Te Ching. I'm just scratching the surface of course. The above is from the second verse, and the idea is that if you attempt to formulate what is good, then something else must be bad. The implication: they are bad for no really good reason. Sin and Spirit, the subjects of Romans 7 and 8, are not opposites, not one instead of the other. The opposite of Sin (or inherent evil) is to do good. To follow Spirit is to forget about the definition of bad and good, the difference between them, do's and don'ts, rules, and so on. "The mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace". Righteousness is still a product of life and peace, but it's not a formulaic righteousness. Yknot, in terms of your OP, the Spirit is about generosity, not about any great concern in being overly consumed with Sin. The Spirit is not an antidote to Sin, but an antidote to the struggle and wretchedness that comes from a preoccupation with Sin. Here are some verses to consider. It's good that you think the Spirit of generosity and concern for one's neighbour is what Christianity should be, because in that, the Bible agrees. www.openbible.info/topics/generosity
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Post by What Hat on Jul 25, 2015 21:47:16 GMT -5
Whenever the topic of Sin comes up I often remember my late father's favourite joke. Most people do not find this joke at all funny, but it fits right in with the theme, and who knows, someone might get a smile out of it.
A little boy named Johnny was much distracted during the preacher's sermon, so afterwards his father asked him what the preacher had spoken about. Ummm, Johnny paused for a bit, but then came the reply, "he preached about Sin", which the preacher always did do. Father was not so easily placated. "And what did the preacher say about Sin, Johnny"? "Well" came the answer, "it seems that he was against it."
In my mind's eye I can still see my Dad laughing and slapping his knee.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:50:24 GMT -5
Ynot, your alias reminds of that hymn "Why not, why not, yield all to Him who can bless you..."
What many people have done throughout the generations is to simply read the Gospels. And if this creates in you a love of the Savior then God can do a work in your life.
I recall Steve Jobs, Apple CEO famously saying that he didn't care what a job application knew - it's what applicant loved that mattered. It's easy to teach someone who loves the subject.
Jesus didn't bring any tutorial. No manual. No law book. He calls people in that grand mystery.
You don't have to understand Greek translations, or history, or famous Theologians - just love the man who died for you. This will put in your heart a desire to be like Him - and have faith that God can do the rest.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 25, 2015 22:24:33 GMT -5
And remember, you were a sinner upon taking your first breath. The salesman created a need for his product. Actually, I reject the assertion that I was a sinner from first breath. But that is the premise upon which all the rest of Christianity rests. That's why the rest of Christianity isn't going to add up.
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