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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 23, 2015 22:10:51 GMT -5
Oh those stories ! Of course God couldn't just speak to her he needed the workers ! And of course God couldn't just speak to the witch doctor ! Makes you wonder what will happen to all those people that lived & died in Australia before the workers came !
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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2015 22:22:12 GMT -5
Fixit, Reminds me of the story I was told of a witch doctor, he sent his daughter off to the city, where they had relations, to earn a living as he was getting old and felt he may not be able to provide for her. On her departure he told her one day two people will come to you and tell you about God, please send them to me.........so how did this man know, no bible, no workers, no professing people in his life.........ah the absolute wonder of the Lord God Himself....especially if our spirit would be willing and our flesh maybe not so weak!!!! How about this one...
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Post by howitis on Jul 23, 2015 22:24:23 GMT -5
And why not God Himself, does not the word gospel mean.....God Speaks!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 22:31:05 GMT -5
Quote - "We read that Timothy, his mother and his grandmother had faith in them. You seem to be twisting the scripture to claim that they "were in the faith"."
On the balance of probabilities, yes, we can be sure that Timothy's mother and Grandmother belonged to his faith. If they were a part of an apostate church then Timothy, like many men of the cloth today, would speak "another Gospel."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 22:45:34 GMT -5
Bert don't forget it is Friday, tonight is the night to get on the plonk. See Dan Murphy's has a special on Waterford, either Shiraz or Cabernet, $4.90 a bottle. Might be worth a try.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 24, 2015 9:03:03 GMT -5
I agree with you on the meaning of the verse. However, not everyone does, so it's incorrect to say that the LWD is not Biblically based. It's also not certain what kind of legs the LWD had among the friends. Well I do know that my parents thought I was 'lost' when I quit professing. That didn't change even though they loved me and thought I was a good person. Unless I was professing in their religion I was lost for eternity. They never changed that view point ever. I don't know who started that belief that only those in the Truth were saved, but some certainly believed it. I believe Nathan is another one that openly claims that. He has said it to me several times on here and I respect his honesty about that (it's not a complaint). I'm not sure how that relates to my post about the LWD. Ros is saying that the doctrine was "invented" by the friends, while I'm saying it has Biblical support. If it didn't have Biblical support there wouldn't be so many groups that think they are the only ones saved, and that you need to hear the Gospel from their preachers.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 24, 2015 9:07:03 GMT -5
I heard once in a convention in NSW that when there is no messenger to send, 'the Lord God speaks Himself...', can't remember it ever being said that people must hear it from the workers. Know of a lady many years ago, whose brother was attending Gospel meetings, after each meeting he went home and wrote her a letter of what was said, she attended convention and made her choice there, she'd never been to a gospel meeting, never met a worker until then! If God's messengers in 1905 were William Irvine, Edward Cooney, Jack Carrol, George Walker et al... Then who were God's messengers in 1895? Do you think that question never crossed the mind of Joe Kerr and William Irvine? Of course it did. The essential idea is that William Irvine received a revelation from God, e.g. he was a modern day prophet, and then through the LWD the Gospel or whatever Irvine called it, the "Testimony" I think, is passed on to others. Irvine's later writings are full of this kind of thinking. With Irvine booted out of the fellowship the LWD lost whatever currency it had and was gradually supplanted by often highly romantic ideas of succession.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2015 11:00:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure Kerr made a mistake in his first interpretation. Interesting thought that "the preacher to whom Paul was referring" is "the firmament of heaven". There is no doubt that the firmament of heaven is an effective and real preacher but I really have to wonder if that is what Paul meant. If you look at Romans 10:14 in context the preacher to whom Paul was referring could hardly be "the firmament of heaven" because the phrases; "a preacher" "how "shall they preach", "they be sent", "are the feet of them" , and "that preach the gospel" all clearly refer to a human beings not "the firmament of heaven". Those phrases are Blue Letter Bible links to the original greek, and to other places the phrases are used in the NT. Click them and check it out for yourself. The place and importance of the human preacher in those verses, and referenced verses where the same greek phrase was used, are very hard to "explain away". Generally people are pretty careful about concluding they mean something other than what they actually say. Kerr comments further; I can agree with this, but would leave what Paul says in Romans 10:14-15 as something I don't fully understand, that I see though a glass darkly, instead of running the risk of giving it a meaning it really doesn't have. Not understanding how those verses fully fit in the big picture is a pretty good reason to not judge others based on them.
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Post by snow on Jul 24, 2015 11:08:07 GMT -5
Fixit, Reminds me of the story I was told of a witch doctor, he sent his daughter off to the city, where they had relations, to earn a living as he was getting old and felt he may not be able to provide for her. On her departure he told her one day two people will come to you and tell you about God, please send them to me.........so how did this man know, no bible, no workers, no professing people in his life.........ah the absolute wonder of the Lord God Himself....especially if our spirit would be willing and our flesh maybe not so weak!!!! He didn't. That's why they are called 'stories'. You can't sit in meetings listening to the various ways these stories are told by individual workers and not know what they are.
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Post by snow on Jul 24, 2015 11:12:16 GMT -5
Well I do know that my parents thought I was 'lost' when I quit professing. That didn't change even though they loved me and thought I was a good person. Unless I was professing in their religion I was lost for eternity. They never changed that view point ever. I don't know who started that belief that only those in the Truth were saved, but some certainly believed it. I believe Nathan is another one that openly claims that. He has said it to me several times on here and I respect his honesty about that (it's not a complaint). I'm not sure how that relates to my post about the LWD. Ros is saying that the doctrine was "invented" by the friends, while I'm saying it has Biblical support. If it didn't have Biblical support there wouldn't be so many groups that think they are the only ones saved, and that you need to hear the Gospel from their preachers. Oh, okay, I misunderstood you. I thought you were questioning if it existed and I was replying that the only true way theory was alive and well in my parents. Sorry. I agree with you that just about every religion has some aspect of the LWD not just the friends.
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Post by fixit on Jul 24, 2015 15:25:31 GMT -5
Quote - "We read that Timothy, his mother and his grandmother had faith in them. You seem to be twisting the scripture to claim that they "were in the faith"." On the balance of probabilities, yes, we can be sure that Timothy's mother and Grandmother belonged to his faith. If they were a part of an apostate church then Timothy, like many men of the cloth today, would speak "another Gospel."I see. It's now "probable" that Timothy and his mother and grandmother were 2x2ers. The bible says they had faith within them, and you say they were within the 2x2 church. No doubt a Catholic would say they were within the Catholic Church. And on it goes.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 24, 2015 22:20:25 GMT -5
Quote - "We read that Timothy, his mother and his grandmother had faith in them. You seem to be twisting the scripture to claim that they "were in the faith"." On the balance of probabilities, yes, we can be sure that Timothy's mother and Grandmother belonged to his faith. If they were a part of an apostate church then Timothy, like many men of the cloth today, would speak "another Gospel."I see. It's now "probable" that Timothy and his mother and grandmother were 2x2ers. The bible says they had faith within them, and you say they were within the 2x2 church. No doubt a Catholic would say they were within the Catholic Church. And on it goes. Great post Fixit, that is exactly how it goes ! Very subtle, but in time it is changed to mean something totally different !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 22:38:32 GMT -5
Fixit, Reminds me of the story I was told of a witch doctor, he sent his daughter off to the city, where they had relations, to earn a living as he was getting old and felt he may not be able to provide for her. On her departure he told her one day two people will come to you and tell you about God, please send them to me.........so how did this man know, no bible, no workers, no professing people in his life.........ah the absolute wonder of the Lord God Himself....especially if our spirit would be willing and our flesh maybe not so weak!!!! How about this one... wow
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 23:01:33 GMT -5
The LWD is true. It might not be exclusively given to the workers, but it's none-the-less true. A person has to hear the gospel to be saved. If you believe in the bible, it's not a matter of whether the LWD is true or not. The question is "Can a person be saved apart from the workers?" In the fellowship there, some think you can be saved apart form a worker, others think you can't. Even workers have different opinions on this. To give my 2 cents worth on the original post by Bert: there have clearly been numerous movements working apart from Orthodoxy since the time of Christ. There have always been small groups of people meeting in homes, preaching freely, claiming to have 'the only way' and attempting to follow the biblical pattern of the Church. This did not begin in the late 1800s. This 'faith' has been around since the time of Christ. If anyone is interested, purchase a copy of MARTYR'S MIRROR or THE BLOODY THEATRE, an old Anabaptist book. It documents martyrdom and so-called heretics since the time of Christ in great detail. Is there a continuation from group to group. Probably. This fellowship is a continuation of the New Testament, whether it can be proved or not. I don't think the fellowship is into proving anything to anyone. It's faith-based. However, if one wants proof, educate yourself by reading true, historical books such as MARTYR'S MIRROR. Here's a URL to the actual book, which you can read online. It goes from CENTURY TO CENTURY showing that a remnant has always existed. homecomers.org/mirror/well said nightshift...
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Post by Mary on Jul 25, 2015 23:04:04 GMT -5
A remnant have always existed but these remnant were nothing to do with the workers and vice versa. The workers broke away from mainstream churches. Anyone would say there have always been those who didn't join with the Catholic church but they don't claim they were one of the remnant. The workers weren't either.
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Post by Mary on Jul 25, 2015 23:16:33 GMT -5
As you know Nathan the martyrs did not come from your church. Your church was formed after the martyrs.
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Post by Mary on Jul 25, 2015 23:24:22 GMT -5
As I said your church is a break away from other mainstream protestant churches not from the remnant.
Workers are Just another protestant church
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Post by Mary on Jul 25, 2015 23:41:36 GMT -5
They didn't perfect the Faith Mission. It still exists today. The workers formed another protestant church. The article in the link is Christian history. Can't you see there have always been Christians since Jesus day, nothing to do with the Catholic Church and long before the workers started out on their own.
Why you try to claim it for your own i don't know. The workers claim anyone before them and besides them are not saved.
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Post by matisse on Jul 26, 2015 13:13:43 GMT -5
A few workers will grudgingly accept that you could be saved in a different church, but you'll find the fellowship eventually if that's the case. I personally don't know of a single worker who doesn't believe you are lost once you leave the fellowship. There might be some, I just don't happen to know any. My folks were clear on that also: not in, not saved. You might not be saved while in, of course, but you couldn't be while out. Simple really. I'm sure a few other churches believe that also, but they wouldn't call it the LWD....just the old 'we're right and everyone else is wrong' doctrine. It must have a Latin phrase, but I just can't call it to mind at the moment. Nos rightus, Vos wrongus doesn't sound quite right. I agree. When I was in the 2x2's it was always my understanding the you are lost if you aren't in the fellowship.
I had not heard of the Living Witness Doctrine by that name, but we certainly knew we couldn't be "saved" by any "false preachers" in any outside "false church."I'll pile on here...I heard the same message from Workers and Friends growing up. I also appreciate Nathan's honesty. A professing loved one of mine denied that she had ever heard any one ever say anything like it before. I was trying to answer her question about why it had seemed like I didn"t want to be around the friends after I first left meetings. I wish she could have acknowledged the judgemental message and how that cold be off-putting...or say that she personally does't believe it even if others do. Funny thing is that she otherwise presents herself as someone who is exceedingly - even excruciatingly honest.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2015 16:53:38 GMT -5
I agree. When I was in the 2x2's it was always my understanding the you are lost if you aren't in the fellowship.
I had not heard of the Living Witness Doctrine by that name, but we certainly knew we couldn't be "saved" by any "false preachers" in any outside "false church." I'll pile on here...I heard the same message from Workers and Friends growing up. I also appreciate Nathan's honesty. A professing loved one of mine denied that she had ever heard any one ever say anything like it before. I was trying to answer her question about why it had seemed like I didn"t want to be around the friends after I first left meetings. I wish she could have acknowledged the judgemental message and how that cold be off-putting...or say that she personally does't believe it even if others do. Funny thing is that she otherwise presents herself as someone who is exceedingly - even excruciatingly honest. Mattisse, it seems that people just don't see the inconsistencies within their own groups. It's much easier it seems to see it in another group though. Xna sent me a book the God Virus by Darrel W. Rey and he points this out and I agree with that. Christians point out all the strange and impossible things that Islam believes, but they are not able to see or acknowledge the strange and impossible thing they believe. She probably totally believed what she told you. Things she heard she likely interpreted totally differently from what you, I or dmg might have heard and interpreted.
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Post by matisse on Jul 26, 2015 17:16:33 GMT -5
I'll pile on here...I heard the same message from Workers and Friends growing up. I also appreciate Nathan's honesty. A professing loved one of mine denied that she had ever heard any one ever say anything like it before. I was trying to answer her question about why it had seemed like I didn"t want to be around the friends after I first left meetings. I wish she could have acknowledged the judgemental message and how that cold be off-putting...or say that she personally does't believe it even if others do. Funny thing is that she otherwise presents herself as someone who is exceedingly - even excruciatingly honest. Mattisse, it seems that people just don't see the inconsistencies within their own groups. It's much easier it seems to see it in another group though. Xna sent me a book the God Virus by Darrel W. Rey and he points this out and I agree with that. Christians point out all the strange and impossible things that Islam believes, but they are not able to see or acknowledge the strange and impossible thing they believe. She probably totally believed what she told you. Things she heard she likely interpreted totally differently from what you, I or dmg might have heard and interpreted. You may be right....though I cannot figure out how a person could sit through some of the Sat pm Convention meetings we sat through together and miss the message!
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Post by jondough on Jul 26, 2015 17:18:40 GMT -5
All the Friends know and acknoledge that the "Truth" was brought to the US in 1905.
Prior to that I guess everyone in the US was doomed to Hell?
Can someone please explain so I can quit worrying about my great great great grandpa...
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2015 17:58:43 GMT -5
Mattisse, it seems that people just don't see the inconsistencies within their own groups. It's much easier it seems to see it in another group though. Xna sent me a book the God Virus by Darrel W. Rey and he points this out and I agree with that. Christians point out all the strange and impossible things that Islam believes, but they are not able to see or acknowledge the strange and impossible thing they believe. She probably totally believed what she told you. Things she heard she likely interpreted totally differently from what you, I or dmg might have heard and interpreted. You may be right....though I cannot figure out how a person could sit through some of the Sat pm Convention meetings we sat through together and miss the message! I don't know how either. But it's fairly obvious some just don't hear it or block it or interpret it differently, who knows.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 19:39:24 GMT -5
All the Friends know and acknoledge that the "Truth" was brought to the US in 1905. Prior to that I guess everyone in the US was doomed to Hell? Can someone please explain so I can quite worrying about my great great great grandpa... that's seems to be the gist of it so start worrying
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 21:37:34 GMT -5
Two of my family were attending home based church services in LA in the 1880's. They belonged to a church who's name they never divulged - just called "meetings." I have been trying for years to find out what this group was.
Probably not the same, probably not different either. Some of these groups could have merged with the Irish ministry. Others did.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2015 8:13:28 GMT -5
All the Friends know and acknoledge that the "Truth" was brought to the US in 1905. Prior to that I guess everyone in the US was doomed to Hell? Can someone please explain so I can quite worrying about my great great great grandpa... that's seems to be the gist of it so start worrying
So no other answers to this other than everyone in the USA was doomed to Hell prior to 1905? Hmmm Not good.
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Post by jondough on Jul 27, 2015 8:33:49 GMT -5
Two of my family were attending home based church services in LA in the 1880's. They belonged to a church who's name they never divulged - just called "meetings." I have been trying for years to find out what this group was.
Probably not the same, probably not different either. Some of these groups could have merged with the Irish ministry. Others did. Nathan lays claims to the Waldensians, and one other, Why not claim these guys; en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_(Anderson,_Indiana)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 20:51:10 GMT -5
All the Friends know and acknoledge that the "Truth" was brought to the US in 1905. Prior to that I guess everyone in the US was doomed to Hell? Can someone please explain so I can quit worrying about my great great great grandpa... Yes, the friends all know that the truth was brought to the US in 1905. No question about that. When I say "The Truth" I mean the group I belong to. Of course your great great great grandpa could have been saved, if he acknowledge God, the bible, Jesus and all that Jesus stood for. Part of believing in Jesus is to leave false religion, and separate yourself from Babylon and her daughters (the RC Church and the Protestant churches). This has happened many times over the past 2,000 years; in many lands; and it probably going on right now in various places.... apart from 'the Truth.' God isn't limited to the friends and workers.
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