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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2015 15:52:02 GMT -5
Jesus had NEVER attended any Bible Training Institute/school in his days so William Irvine couldn't have learned that from him. Jesus NEVER did sent his sheep to join any sect or religious group of their choice after they became his disciples, like when William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher from 1895-1900. Jesus never rode in a car or train. He didn't ride a bicycle or wear a business suit. He didn't read the Bible or speak English.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 23, 2015 16:07:04 GMT -5
Not sure which university you people all study through, or college, but most won't accept wiki references, why because they can be changed by anyone, wasn't that long ago that someone commented that they couldn't find Irvine on wiki......and along he came. Sorry about your grandparents, my great grandmother learnt to read after she professed by reading the bible and remained professing even after learning to read and being told all those 'lies'......... No doubt many people learned to read after they professed. I don't know if my grandmother did or not
I was responding to your post, "Remembering too that not all were educated, not all could rwad or write,"
As to wiki, -I am aware that it hasn't the end all for references but it does give a place to start .
I also know that the **TRUTH** certainly did divide many families!
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Post by shipwreckedsailor on Jul 23, 2015 16:50:14 GMT -5
I also know that the **TRUTH** certainly did divide many families!
...and sadly continues to do so.
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Post by howitis on Jul 23, 2015 22:37:16 GMT -5
And maybe whilst we're looking at Paul, was he not breathing out threatenings.....and then he saw the light.......he went on to do what? Breathe out threatenings either on those he used to persecute or those of his old faith?.....no it is my belief he went forth embracing his new faith and telling it to others. And yes I would say at times he was a pretty fierce preacher!
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Post by Mary on Jul 24, 2015 2:12:56 GMT -5
I'm guessing they would likely have had religious instruction in schools like middle east countries still do today.
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Post by fred on Jul 24, 2015 2:16:44 GMT -5
Well of course not, Nathan! Such inane statements do nothing for a person's credibility. hahaha... Let me put it another way... Jesus and most of his apostles didn't attend any Rabbi school or religious training, except for Saul/Paul, when he was a Pharisee.Nathan, have you ever researched how Jewish boys were trained in the traditions in those days?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2015 8:27:07 GMT -5
Why would Doug's permission be needed to reprint something that was first published over sixty years ago? I don't know, the bolded quote is from TTT. It is strange ilylo would have permission but Cherie not, especially since ilylo is the TTT webmaster. I noticed this comment in Alfred's comments about Doug's publication; "Here are some of the things Doug’s unclothing of us might do: " Alfred uses the word "us" in 1956 as if he was still part of the fellowship. He was "reportedly excommunicated" (TTT et al) in 1919 by George Walker. If he was "reportedly excommunicated" in 1919 why would he use the word "us" in 1956?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2015 8:33:06 GMT -5
...and sadly continues to do so. Did you note Alfred's response to that comment from Doug? Politics and religion sometimes has that effect, it's NOT unique and specific to the friends and workers fellowship. I know of people practically ostracized and disowned by their families for "marrying outside" their parent's faith, they weren't in the fellowship.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 24, 2015 9:54:44 GMT -5
Note on Alfred Magowan:
My father, who had been in the work in the late 1920's, had a very small (4 3/4' x 3") bible with an inscription: "to John with love from Alfie" March 1900 John 5-24
Between the OT & NT is the printed name John S. Jackson
Thinking the "Alfie" might have been Alfred Magowan, I got in touch with his son. who was living at that time, maybe 15 - 20 years ago. He said that his father, Alfred Magowan, never signed his name as "Alfie."
The reason that I had thought it could have been Alfred Magowan, was because he had been in the work in Kentucky and my father had also been in the work in Kentucky.
So my mystery remained unsolved.
I would really like to hear from anyone that has any ideas about who those two people were. Here on the board or PM me
PS:
The handwriting is beautiful, as it often was for those times The print is so small, I wonder how anyone could read it and especially with the kind of lighting they had at that time, -kerosene lamps.
The workers referred to Alfred Magowan as Alphie - I've seen it in numerous letters and heard it used verbally also. He's mentioned a number of times in Wm Irvine's letters from Jerusalem as Alphie. The only other Alfie I know of was Alfie Trotter of Ireland, who was a later generation. You can read what I have collected about Alfie on TTT here: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/magowanalfred.phpJohn Samuel Jackson was called Jack. Here's his testimony: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/jackson_jack.phpI havent confirmed this for certain, but I think he professed through Wm Irvine.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 24, 2015 10:07:33 GMT -5
Why would Doug's permission be needed to reprint something that was first published over sixty years ago? Exactly. For a time, I distributed copies of this doc. And then I put it on TTT. When Doug discovered this, he demanded I remove it. It isnt copyrighted, but out of respect for Doug, and our on going working relationship, I removed it. However, I do intend to post it on TTT in the near future. I figured he would rather have the information transmitted with the attitude he used in the Secret Sect--which as noted is vastly different from the young man who had recently discovered he had been deceived and felt betrayed. I feel it highly likely that Doug's motive is like mine: To do to others as we WISH had been done to us...
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2015 11:24:15 GMT -5
Why would Doug's permission be needed to reprint something that was first published over sixty years ago? Exactly. For a time, I distributed copies of this doc. And then I put it on TTT. When Doug discovered this, he demanded I remove it. It isnt copyrighted, but out of respect for Doug, and our on going working relationship, I removed it. However, I do intend to post it on TTT in the near future. I figured he would rather have the information transmitted with the attitude he used in the Secret Sect--which as noted is vastly different from the young man who had recently discovered he had been deceived and felt betrayed. I feel it highly likely that Doug's motive is like mine: To do to others as we WISH had been done to us...Doug demanded you remove it? Interesting. Cherie do you know if Doug ever openly or publically repented or expressed remorse for the harsh, highly exclusive, judgmental, statements and broad brush misrepresentations he published in 1954? I've been wondering about that, especially since Magowan's and Kerr's rebuttals outlining the flaws in Doug's Spiritual Fraud Exposed have been recently posted. Magowan actually called one flaw a "fatal defect". I can see why anyone who read and remembered the 1954 document would have automatically had a very low opinion of The Secret Sect. In a sense The Secret Sect was poisoned by " A Spritual Fraud Exposed". It would be nice to know if he ever felt bad about any of the things he said in 1954 and/or the way he said them.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 24, 2015 11:58:22 GMT -5
Jesse: What are you referring to that has been recently posted by Kerr? Posted where, when, by whom?
My dealings with Doug were not of a personal nature. I wrote him when I was trying to confirm various information--to see if he could give me some direction. For example, the last time I wrote him, I was trying to find out who Jack Jackson professed through...
He usually ended his short handwritten letters wishing me well in my endeavors/book, but rarely provided any supporting information.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2015 12:19:59 GMT -5
Jesse: What are you referring to that has been recently posted by Kerr? Posted where, when, by whom? My dealings with Doug were not of a personal nature. I wrote him when I was trying to confirm various information--to see if he could give me some direction. For example, the last time I wrote him, I was trying to find out who Jack Jackson professed through... He usually ended his short handwritten letters wishing me well in my endeavors/book, but rarely provided any supporting information. Kerr; professing.proboards.com/post/655693/threadMagowan; professing.proboards.com/post/655513/threadI hadn't read any either of those or Doug Parker's A Spiritual Fraud Exposed until this week. It would be very nice to know if he had any regrets about A Spiritual Fraud Exposed. Considering what Magowan and Kerr wrote, he should.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 24, 2015 12:47:32 GMT -5
Oh - recently posted on TMB.
I first saw both of these at least 25 years ago. They have been widely circulated among the ex2x2s for quite some time.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2015 13:02:31 GMT -5
Oh - recently posted on TMB. I first saw both of these at least 25 years ago. They have been widely circulated among the ex2x2s for quite some time. Since they were widely circulated what was did exes think of Magowan's and Kerr's comments about Parker's Spiritual Fraud Exposed? Some of what Magowan wrote is pretty critical, and on point. For instance, what were exe's thoughts on what Magowan said here; Or here;
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Post by Mary on Jul 24, 2015 13:12:58 GMT -5
hahaha... Let me put it another way... Jesus and most of his apostles didn't attend any Rabbi school or religious training, except for Saul/Paul, when he was a Pharisee. Nathan, have you ever researched how Jewish boys were trained in the traditions in those days? Nathan you need to read the article in the link you posted again. They learned about their religion in schools. Of course parents would have reinforced these instructions but they were schooled in the Torah in school.
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Post by Mary on Jul 24, 2015 13:28:47 GMT -5
I don't see the refrutal on Doug's work much of a refrutal at all. A lot of words but not a lot of substance. I agree Doug's Spiritual Fraud paper was a bit heavy.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 24, 2015 14:05:25 GMT -5
Jesse: What are you referring to that has been recently posted by Kerr? Posted where, when, by whom? My dealings with Doug were not of a personal nature. I wrote him when I was trying to confirm various information--to see if he could give me some direction. For example, the last time I wrote him, I was trying to find out who Jack Jackson professed through... He usually ended his short handwritten letters wishing me well in my endeavors/book, but rarely provided any supporting information. Kerr; professing.proboards.com/post/655693/threadMagowan; professing.proboards.com/post/655513/threadI hadn't read any either of those or Doug Parker's A Spiritual Fraud Exposed until this week. It would be very nice to know if he had any regrets about A Spiritual Fraud Exposed. Considering what Magowan and Kerr wrote, he should. Well, I sometimes think that we all say things, write things, do things, that with a little perspective, we probably wouldn't have done it quite that way. I know I have, and despite my best intentions, I continue to do it. The best remedy for it, is the recognition and acceptance of, as Maja Angelou famously told Oprah, "You did then what you knew how to do; now you know better, you do better." This helps you shoulder responsibility for anything you've done in the past, AND gives you a way to move forward. Very powerful. Whether Doug ever felt this way, who knows? I also don't think it matters if he did or if he didn't.
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Post by fixit on Jul 24, 2015 15:03:25 GMT -5
Why would Doug's permission be needed to reprint something that was first published over sixty years ago? I don't know, the bolded quote is from TTT. It is strange ilylo would have permission but Cherie not, especially since ilylo is the TTT webmaster. I noticed this comment in Alfred's comments about Doug's publication; "Here are some of the things Doug’s unclothing of us might do: " Alfred uses the word "us" in 1956 as if he was still part of the fellowship. He was "reportedly excommunicated" (TTT et al) in 1919 by George Walker. If he was "reportedly excommunicated" in 1919 why would he use the word "us" in 1956? Probably for the same reason other exes use the word "us" when referring to the fellowship. The fellowship had been Alfred's life for many years. That doesn't simply disappear when someone stops attending meetings.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 24, 2015 15:34:04 GMT -5
Many exes are filled with indignation when they find out they've been deliberately deceived by those they trusted to tell them the truth, who ironically, preached in the name of "The Truth." They felt they were played the fool, disrespected, sold a lemon, taken advantage of, etc. They are filled with righteous indignation.
Wikipedia: Righteous anger is typically a reactive emotion of anger over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice. In some Christian doctrines, righteous anger is considered the only form of anger which is not sinful, e.g., when Jesus drove the money lenders out of the temple (Gospel of Matthew 21).
The agony of deceit is/was crushing and extremely painful, like a rug had been pulled out from under one wherein the the foundation crumbled. It hurt all the more more because we had been deliberately tricked and betrayed! We felt robbed, ripped off, swindled, gypped, hoodwinked and cheated. We had been intentionally deceived by those we trusted above all others—the Workers! It hurt us deeply and we grieved, and we showed it in various ways. Especially after making this discovery, people often attack, lambast and act out without tact and disregarding feelings of others. WHen someone hits you, it is normal to feel the urge--or to act on it--to hit back. This is a normal reaction when deceit and betrayal are involved in most any situation.
Sometimes/often, the way the ex2x2s express their resentment, whether verbally or in writing, changes over the years. I know that my writing style has changed since I wrote my first pieces. I used the word lie a lot when I first found out about WmI, which I later tempered to falsehoods and untruths. I found using slanted, volatile words, loaded language, etc. turned readers off and caused some to not finish reading what I wrote. Likely Doug figured this out also between 1954 and 1982. People go through stages after they leave meetings...Doug was in the first stage, the anger stage, when he wrote A Spiritual Fraud Exposed.
I suspect most angry 2x2s feel justified in their feelings, although they may temper their feelings over the years. Jesus said: Be ye angry and sin not...How is telling the truth a sin?
As to Parker regretting things he wrote--probably every writer has things they regret or would change if they could do it over again--after it goes to print and its too late to change them. For example, when I challenged Dr. Jaenen about something in his book, he told me it was an and regretted including it. He also told me of something he wished he had included.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 24, 2015 16:00:18 GMT -5
Alfred uses the word "us" in 1956 as if he was still part of the fellowship. He was "reportedly excommunicated" (TTT et al) in 1919 by George Walker. If he was "reportedly excommunicated" in 1919 why would he use the word "us" in 1956? People who are excommunicated generally continue in the same mind/way without attending meetings; OR like Dennis, absolutely cut all ties with meetings. For example, John Starkweather and Truitt Oyler act no different from when they were speaking in mtgs. Cooney's followers considered themselves "The Outcasts," and continued to follow the same way, same hymnbook, etc. with a few modifications. Alfie and wife preached in Cooneys movement some. On the other hand, Irvine's Omega followers were a total different group; us vs them; Alpha vs Omega.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 24, 2015 16:09:23 GMT -5
People who are excommunicated generally continue in the same mind/way without attending meetings; OR like Dennis, absolutely cut all ties with meetings. For example, John Starkweather and Truitt Oyler act no different from when they were speaking in mtgs. Cooney's followers considered themselves "The Outcasts," and continued to follow the same way, same hymnbook, etc. with a few modifications. Alfie and wife preached in Cooneys movement some. On the other hand, Irvine's Omega followers were a total different group; us vs them; Alpha vs Omega. Cherie, can you give us some examples of Irvine's Omega followers believed? Thanks. Who are us and who are them? or Alpha and Omega?It's all detailed in my book Nate. I'm not spoon feeding you. Not to mention discussing that would be hijacking this thread. www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/index.php
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Post by Mary on Jul 24, 2015 16:20:03 GMT -5
Starting at chapter 21 in the book Link Cherie gave seems to answer your question Nathan.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 25, 2015 4:20:04 GMT -5
How is it that someone won't respond to any of my posts?
I guess that's just how it is.
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Post by Mary on Jul 25, 2015 5:02:56 GMT -5
Elizabeth, I notice you have mostly asked Howitis, Maryhig and Bert questions.
I'd answer you but you haven't asked me any questions. I'm offended. Well, that's life I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 5:17:46 GMT -5
Smile, Elizabeth, I agree with your posts! Feel badly I have not indicated that!
Little comment on my posts regarding the outrageous claims made about something else asserted, except by the one making those claims, either. Like you say, that's just the way it is here. I'm sure people will respond more to your posts (and mine) with time. If it means anything to you, I rate your posts right along side of Cherie's and Edgar Massey's of days gone by, and Alvin's and others who post here, even those of some who view things far differently than I.
Now, I am awake at the moment alerted by my service dog of falling blood sugar in my sleep. Have dealt with it, tired, going back to sleep...
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 25, 2015 5:21:00 GMT -5
How is it that someone won't respond to any of my posts? I guess that's just how it is. Read between the lines. Or, remove the spaces.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 8:02:46 GMT -5
How is it that someone won't respond to any of my posts? I guess that's just how it is. I understand how you feel. This happens to me a lot. So much so that I now wear it as a badge of honour. My conclusion is that people who refuse to respond often do so to prevent the folly of their position being exposed. Matt10
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