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Post by emy on Jul 22, 2015 21:18:15 GMT -5
Oh, and activist ex and apostate are vile names? Not even close to what Parker and others designated.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 22, 2015 21:26:07 GMT -5
Note- reminder to self , in post. . I forget, what are we arguing about ? Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 21:35:31 GMT -5
Here's "slander" about Jesus:
There is no evidence "Jesus of Nazareth" existed. Jesus didn't tick a single box of what the Jews understand to be the Messiah. Many the things which Jesus is said to have done are physically impossible. Jesus wrote nothing down. What we know was written as late as a century later. "Sons of God" are common in other cultures. Jesus' own brother (who knew him the most) was marginalized by other factions of the early church.
EVERY STATEMENT IS A FACT. BUT ARE 'FACTS' TRUTH?
NO.
To say you support "truth" on the TMB is like holding Goliath’s spit bucket
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Post by fixit on Jul 22, 2015 21:37:19 GMT -5
Note- reminder to self , in post. . I forget, what are we arguing about ? Alvin We don't argue on TMB... We simply discuss matters of mutual interest!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 22, 2015 21:53:52 GMT -5
How does publishing the words of a man, who even published them himself, qualify as slander?? Exactly. People who publish things like what I've quoted demonize, slander and assassinate their own character.
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Post by fixit on Jul 22, 2015 22:19:32 GMT -5
Alfred Magowan was an early worker who parted ways with the fellowship.
On January 13th 1956 he wrote the following about Doug Parker's work ...
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 22, 2015 23:06:54 GMT -5
So who will be the first to accuse Alfred Magowan of attacking, slandering, demonizing, and assassinating the character of Doug Parker??
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Post by emy on Jul 22, 2015 23:23:15 GMT -5
Those of you who are wholehearted supporters of Doug Parker, after reading this (written by Doug), do you have any hope that if we are still in this fellowship we are saved?
"Any belief that requires domination, cruelty, deliberate lies and fraud in order that it may be preserved, IS NOT OF GOD, and the sooner it is dissolved the better." "No religious craze of modern times was so unscriptural, so unnatural, so revolting and so unholy."
However, none of those claims are true. Our belief does not REQUIRE those things. Have they happened? No doubt, but it isn't the norm. It is not unscriptural or revolting. Maybe some aspects could be called unnatural. (Take up your cross; across the will of nature, etc.) I believe that the Holy Spirit within makes the "unnatural" completely possible. I don't understand "unholy." What group can claim to be holy?
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Post by emy on Jul 22, 2015 23:42:16 GMT -5
I was curious about A Magowan's status when he wrote this so I checked TTT. I found he was 'reportedly' excommunicated by G. Walker in 1919 (some years didn't add up, however - maybe was 1924). So this article would have been written long after he was no longer in the f&w fellowship?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 22, 2015 23:52:48 GMT -5
Ross I asked that question because I noted and commented on some of the exact same things Alfred noted commented on from Doug's 1954 document: "No religious craze of modern times was so unscriptural, so unnatural, so revolting. and so unholy." I was accused of slander, demonizing, and character assassination.
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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2015 0:03:12 GMT -5
I was curious about A Magowan's status when he wrote this so I checked TTT. I found he was 'reportedly' excommunicated by G. Walker in 1919 (some years didn't add up, however - maybe was 1924). So this article would have been written long after he was no longer in the f&w fellowship? I think the fact that Alfred had long ago parted ways with the fellowship, along with the fact that he was a fellow worker of the men condemned by Doug, gives weight to his words.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 0:08:32 GMT -5
I recall a minister mocking a simple parishioner for believing in the story of Adam and Eve. The way he spoke made me think of that verse about what would become of the churches "A cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Nearly half of all Anglican clergy don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus, for example.
It's not good to attack other churches. I don't recall many Workers doing it (at least in sermons.)
Having said that the churches today are in far worse shape than they were in the 1950's - in numbers, in money, in political influence, in social esteem and in doctrine.
Quote from Magowan of Parker, "... it was A GREAT EXPERIENCE; but he leaves that out. He said my life had been wrecked by the experiment; but he ought to have let me say so; and I never have, and never will."
Ah, the sins of omission....
Parker - a man of "facts"? Which facts?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 23, 2015 0:21:58 GMT -5
Those of you who are wholehearted supporters of Doug Parker, after reading this (written by Doug), do you have any hope that if we are still in this fellowship we are saved? "Any belief that requires domination, cruelty, deliberate lies and fraud in order that it may be preserved, IS NOT OF GOD, and the sooner it is dissolved the better." "No religious craze of modern times was so unscriptural, so unnatural, so revolting and so unholy."However, none of those claims are true. Our belief does not REQUIRE those things. Have they happened? No doubt, but it isn't the norm. It is not unscriptural or revolting. Maybe some aspects could be called unnatural. (Take up your cross; across the will of nature, etc.) I believe that the Holy Spirit within makes the "unnatural" completely possible. I don't understand "unholy." What group can claim to be holy? To understand Doug's statement I think you need to understand the climate and context in NSW in the 1950's and what was said between Doug and John Hardie - I've commented on this in another post. I think ex-members have answered the question "will people in the fellowship be saved" many, many times and the answer is always Yes. When a person realises the extent of God's work in the world, the last thing they want to do is limit the work of God again. However, it's true that most ex-members believe that the teaching of the 2x2 church, in a number of areas, does not line up with Scripture. But I think this might have been preceded by a long history of workers railing against false churches - remember the early convention when only Eddie Cooney and John Pattison stood against the throng of other workers to defend Wesley as a Christian. When you leave and you are told in the process that you have blasphemed and are now eating at Satan's table (ie in a false church) it might give an insight into why some ex-members are a little critical of workers' teaching and in some cases behaviour I agree Ross, the things I have been told about John Hardie line up with what you have said, things like people being told at the Guilford Convention when Doug turned up that he was a bad man and "Of the Devil"
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 23, 2015 0:24:31 GMT -5
I recall a minister mocking a simple parishioner for believing in the story of Adam and Eve. The way he spoke made me think of that verse about what would become of the churches "A cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Nearly half of all Anglican clergy don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus, for example.
It's not good to attack other churches. I don't. I don't recall many Workers doing it either (at least in sermons.) (And I attend Orthodox, some Catholic and the occasional Anglican due to circumstances.) Having said that the churches today are in far worse shape than they were in the 1950's - in numbers, in money, in political influence, in social esteem and in doctrine.
Quote from Magowan of Parker, "... it was A GREAT EXPERIENCE; but he leaves that out. He said my life had been wrecked by the experiment; but he ought to have let me say so; and I never have, and never will."
Ah, the sins of omission....
Parker - a man of "facts"? Which facts? Bert, were you at Guliford Convention in the 50's ? Did you know John Hardie ? Did you know Doug Parker ?
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Post by Mary on Jul 23, 2015 0:34:28 GMT -5
How does publishing the words of a man, who even published them himself, qualify as slander?? Exactly. People who publish things like what I've quoted demonize, slander and assassinate their own character. And you are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing. Makes you no better than the people you are accusing. You assassinate your own character.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 23, 2015 0:52:39 GMT -5
Exactly. People who publish things like what I've quoted demonize, slander and assassinate their own character. And you are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing. Makes you no better than the people you are accusing. You assassinate your oqn character. I assassinate my character by quoting Doug Parker? I guess Alfred Magowan and I are in the same boat. We both killed our own character by quoting Doug Parker.
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Post by Mary on Jul 23, 2015 0:55:52 GMT -5
By calling people names.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 0:59:39 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert, were you at Guliford Convention in the 50's ? Did you know John Hardie ? Did you know Doug Parker ?"
I have never been to Guliford. I can't remember these two - I might have met one. Why do you ask?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 23, 2015 1:06:59 GMT -5
What names? "Activist exe"? That is exactly what Doug was. He was an exe that was actively working against the friends and workers fellowship and said so himself " and the sooner it is dissolved the better." Like I've already said me saying Doug was an activist exe is not even close to the same as Doug saying " No religious craze of modern times was so unscriptural, so unnatural, so revolting and so unholy." I see Alfred had some very specific comments about that too, and lots more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 1:16:45 GMT -5
He was Anglican, right? If so his own church might be dissolved before ours!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 23, 2015 1:18:48 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert, were you at Guliford Convention in the 50's ? Did you know John Hardie ? Did you know Doug Parker ?" I have never been to Guliford. I can't remember these two - I might have met one. Why do you ask?Bert, I seriously am beginning to wonder where you have been for the last 50 years ! (I am guessing you are at least 50). If you have lived in NSW, Vic or QLD and were B&R you would know who John Hardie was !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 1:27:53 GMT -5
Yes, heard of him. But can't remember if I met him. Not that it matters - and my memory is going on me. Sigh...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 23, 2015 1:30:05 GMT -5
Yes, heard of him. But can't remember if I met him. Not that it matters - and my memory is going on me. Sigh... Funny how the memory goes isn't it ! But of course you can remember what Doug say against the F&W Church !
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 23, 2015 1:30:49 GMT -5
It's not good to attack other churches. I don't recall many Workers doing it (at least in sermons.)
Bert, Maybe you don't ''recall many workers doing it, (attacking other churches)" because you are a Newbie and haven't the 2x2's history that some of the rest of us have.
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Post by magpie on Jul 23, 2015 1:31:57 GMT -5
Dear Jesse Lackman. Exclusivism is a judgemental heresy,is that from God,or Satin?. Are any of us given a right to say someome is not worthy of eternal life? MMM what would have thought of the salvation chances of thief on the cross,if you were in the crowd. Judging others is a Judgemental risk we take before God.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 23, 2015 2:08:55 GMT -5
Note on Alfred Magowan:
My father, who had been in the work in the late 1920's, had a very small (4 3/4' x 3") bible with an inscription: "to John with love from Alfie" March 1900 John 5-24
Between the OT & NT is the printed name John S. Jackson
Thinking the "Alfie" might have been Alfred Magowan, I got in touch with his son. who was living at that time, maybe 15 - 20 years ago. He said that his father, Alfred Magowan, never signed his name as "Alfie."
The reason that I had thought it could have been Alfred Magowan, was because he had been in the work in Kentucky and my father had also been in the work in Kentucky.
So my mystery remained unsolved.
I would really like to hear from anyone that has any ideas about who those two people were. Here on the board or PM me
PS:
The handwriting is beautiful, as it often was for those times The print is so small, I wonder how anyone could read it and especially with the kind of lighting they had at that time, -kerosene lamps.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 2:11:32 GMT -5
It's not good to attack other churches. I don't recall many Workers doing it (at least in sermons.) Bert, Maybe you don't ''recall many workers doing it, (attacking other churches)" because you are a Newbie and haven't the 2x2's history that some of the rest of us have. I quote Parker because he's on the Internet and he wrote a book. I just can't recall anything Hardie said. Workers generally don't attack other churches. Many churches don't even claim to be God's church anymore because they don't believe in God. However - I attack other churches, sometimes, even if I attend them.
But a question if I may - what exactly did Parker say about destroying our church?
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Post by howitis on Jul 23, 2015 2:21:51 GMT -5
So sorry if you Ross and others feel my questions were loaded, I did not feel that way and have just reread them and still don't feel that way. Why is it that its ok to question the workers but not ok to question the motives of one who wrote such things about the workers? I feel that with some here asking any questions about Doug are taboo and you'd be penalised! The portrayal of the church dividing families etc was not my experience nor was it imparted to me by my parents of John Hardie being such an unjust man......I'm not saying certain things did not occur what I'm saying is it was not the experience of all!! Should we wish to look into any church I think you'll find that most ministers were reasonably strict. We need to remember too that most people brought out the goid linen, china etc for their guests, this may be seen as 'worker worship', but it was really the normal treatment for most guests (if your guests happen to be workers well thats what happened). In regards to the origin of the early church something came to me recently as I watched an elderly lady burn letters from her 'worker' relative, her words 'I don't want just anyone reading them'. Remembering too that not all were educated, not all could rwad or write, those following beliefs either religious or medical often burnt the evidence to not arouse suspicion and often to save their lives......persecution was rife and it still is today. The other thought is many if the older generation were so devoted to this way that it may well have been their thoughts about 'this being the only way ' etc, perhaps much of the 'worker worship' came from them not the platform. Yes much does come down to fact and opinion, but here we obviously err without direction from our heavenly Father...did not Pilate himself write..'...Jesus king if the jews...'?? Was it written? Yes! Fact, Was it true? Technically yes, but because they rejected him No........fact or opinion people?
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