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Post by withlove on Jul 21, 2015 8:41:55 GMT -5
No one can prevent you from accepting what Jesus offers you. No one is better than you. No living person holds the keys to heaven or your salvation.
If you feel called to testify what you read about or experience with you savior, Father, and the Holy Spirit, and you are restricted from doing so, find out the reasons and consider if you are in an appropriate and healthy environment.
If you feel drawn to participate in the bread and wine ritual and are told you don't qualify, who is more correct? The person telling you that or the Spirit drawing you?
If you are being restricted from testifying or taking the bread and wine, consider: is that is fair treatment for your situation?
No one has a monopoly on sincerity, zeal, or conviction. Search out whether the convictions are right.
Is a trial period necessary to prove your commitment, repentance, or worthiness? Isn't that what all life before heaven is for?
Have you given legitimate reasons for people to distrust you? Are you accepting shame? Are you letting someone else's perceptions shape your perception about yourself? Do you feel guilty for something you have repented and been forgiven for?
Are you getting fulfilling fellowship?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 8:48:50 GMT -5
So what is your situation, WithLove?
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Post by withlove on Jul 21, 2015 8:55:26 GMT -5
So what is your situation, WithLove? I have not been restricted from any of the above.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 9:15:48 GMT -5
Quote - "If you feel called to testify what you read about or experience with you savior, Father, and the Holy Spirit, and you are restricted from doing so, find out the reasons and consider if you are in an appropriate and healthy environment.
If you feel drawn to participate in the bread and wine ritual and are told you don't qualify, who is more correct? The person telling you that or the Spirit drawing you?"
You are free to do whatever you want, but not within an organization. Any organization, really. People come together with common needs, goals and beliefs - and define these with boundaries.
Within our own church this issue would be a personal one between the person and their elder, Worker or even general community. I wouldn't be able to comment on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 9:18:30 GMT -5
Bert, I thought professing was between you and God. I have misunderstood that all these years. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 9:31:04 GMT -5
Bert, I thought professing was between you and God. I have misunderstood that all these years. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Yes, that's fine and proper. There's the private life and the public one. In the public sphere you express your private religious thoughts, but in doing so you agree to the norms of your church. Ignoring these norms is a sure sign of arrogance and even contempt for authority.
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Post by withlove on Jul 21, 2015 9:34:57 GMT -5
Quote - "If you feel called to testify what you read about or experience with you savior, Father, and the Holy Spirit, and you are restricted from doing so, find out the reasons and consider if you are in an appropriate and healthy environment. If you feel drawn to participate in the bread and wine ritual and are told you don't qualify, who is more correct? The person telling you that or the Spirit drawing you?" You are free to do whatever you want, but not within an organization. Any organization, really. People come together with common needs, goals and beliefs - and define these with boundaries.
Within our own church this issue would be a personal one between the person and their elder, Worker or even general community. I wouldn't be able to comment on that.I appreciate your honesty. My hope is that people who are restricted are also encouraged to find a place where they would be able to participate more fully. Or that they can come to that conclusion through revelation, have peace, and find fellowship.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 9:36:07 GMT -5
I see. Disregard for God's authority?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 9:41:51 GMT -5
I see. Disregard for God's authority? If you join a given church it is implied that you believe in that church. And also that your church speaks with God's voice.
So there's something quixotic in the idea that you want to join a church, but not live by its God given rules.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 9:42:27 GMT -5
So if I understand this right, meetings and conventions are held on the authority of man.
There is no direction of the spirit then???
I guess that is why there is so much confusion on this board because I was lead to believe that workers and friends followed the direction of God.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 21, 2015 9:46:10 GMT -5
Quote - "If you feel called to testify what you read about or experience with you savior, Father, and the Holy Spirit, and you are restricted from doing so, find out the reasons and consider if you are in an appropriate and healthy environment. If you feel drawn to participate in the bread and wine ritual and are told you don't qualify, who is more correct? The person telling you that or the Spirit drawing you?" You are free to do whatever you want, but not within an organization. Any organization, really. People come together with common needs, goals and beliefs - and define these with boundaries.
Within our own church this issue would be a personal one between the person and their elder, Worker or even general community. I wouldn't be able to comment on that. I think those are fair statements , Bert, although makes me feel kinda sad. An organization, like the f&w church , can and does restrict membership , and membership can be revoked by the organizations "owners". Some organizations have a democratic process to challenge or question leadership decisions to safeguard the members. I think the f&w organization is not set up that way, and the leaders more or less decide amongst themselves who and what and where anything happens, or does not. Like you say, if you don't like our rules and our "government", don't join our organization. The REALLY hurtful part is that people truly believe that if your organization does not accept them, they are bound for hell. It would be helpful , if your members could somehow communicate to them, this is not the case, and that you merely like the rules and disciplines of being a part of this particular group, but it is OK if others don't , and let's be friends and love and encourage each other anyhow, in the bigger picture, the kingdom of heaven, within each other's hearts and lives. Alvin Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 10:03:49 GMT -5
Question - do you really believe the New Testament church was "democratic"? Read Paul, James and Peter - they had a lot of authority, and showed it when they had.
Here's the problem for modern churches. Secularism.
Secular authorities are pushing churches to be secular. Churches have to be "inclusive", or gay and lesbian friendly for instance. Churches are being told the rules for marriages. Churches can't offend anyone. Membership and ordination are attracting attention too. Then there's dietary issues, and the killing of animals. etc. etc. etc..
By doing this secular groups can crack open very old churches. These groups do not want to be members of these churches of course, they just can't stand the thought they still exist.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 10:08:38 GMT -5
So if I understand this right, meetings and conventions are held on the authority of man. There is no direction of the spirit then??? I guess that is why there is so much confusion on this board because I was lead to believe that workers and friends followed the direction of God. When Paul said he was led of the spirit, and provided leadership to his church, was he being contrary?
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2015 12:54:29 GMT -5
If you are being led by the spirit and it's a personal relationship with God then why is there a need for a church with rules? I do understand that people who share the same love for their God might want to meet and fellowship together and talk about what their relationship with God means to them, but it doesn't make sense that there should be someone who makes rules in that sense. It should just be a gathering of like minded people shouldn't it? Maryhig's group seems to be more like that without the hierarchy that messes up so many people and makes some people appear more 'Godly' (workers, priests etc) than others. Since everyone seems to have a different relationship with their God, why is it okay for some people to say their understanding of God is the one everyone else has to follow? Get together, talk about your relationship with God, encourage each other etc. and agree to disagree if there are differences in personal relationships with God. After all, wouldn't God know best what is right for each and every one of his children and because you are all different that would mean different things for each one also?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 13:05:49 GMT -5
I often remember hearing that "God's way is NOT a democracy"!
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Post by emy on Jul 21, 2015 16:08:07 GMT -5
I often remember hearing that "God's way is NOT a democracy"! Right. It's a benevolent and perfect monarchy.
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Post by jondough on Jul 21, 2015 18:23:10 GMT -5
I like to think that we are a part of a "family" or "Body" where Christ is the head.
What is the "Gospel"? It's the Good News that Christ died for all of us so we could all be a part of this great family. That is Great news! So then Christ sent out the Apostles to spread this "Great news". The hard part is dying to self, and living for it. Why? Because we so easily forget it, and begin living for temporal things again....So then, people met together to encourage each other to remember the Great News, and encourage each other to live for something beyond here. They met together and did this. Paul tried giving guidlines during those time to help with the remembering and even showing others.
Non of this was about an organization. It was always about Christ, and the Good News! The Gospel story.
It should be the same today.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 18:38:05 GMT -5
If you can't take part, profess or be baptised by definition you can't be dealing with a church whose leaders are part of the body of Christ. Have I missed something? Yes you have. John decided who to baptize. Paul decided who was a member. Jesus selected those for the Ministry
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Post by withlove on Jul 21, 2015 18:53:49 GMT -5
Bert, I thought professing was between you and God. I have misunderstood that all these years. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Yes, that's fine and proper. There's the private life and the public one. In the public sphere you express your private religious thoughts, but in doing so you agree to the norms of your church. Ignoring these norms is a sure sign of arrogance and even contempt for authority.I wasn't suggesting bucking authority. Merely getting clarity on what the offense was, sorting out any misunderstanding, and if the restriction stands, possibly moving on to a church that doesn't have a rule restricting participation. Divorced and remarried people who want to join the church, for example, and are told that they can't participate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 20:07:33 GMT -5
The lack of clarity and consistency with regards to these unwritten rules is a big issue for some.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 21, 2015 21:36:03 GMT -5
Great post Ross ! Yes, how man loves to controls others and if they don't comply with their rules well they are lost.
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2015 22:36:46 GMT -5
Methinks It's done largely because man loves to control others. Isn't that the whole idea behind religion, control of the masses through teaching them they are sinners, telling them they can go to hell then offering to teach them what they must do so that won't happen?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 1:15:09 GMT -5
Great post Ross ! Yes, how man loves to controls others and if they don't comply with their rules well they are lost. I take it you guys don't REALLY read your bible, do you? Authority, obeying, master and servant, older and younger, parents and children, government, king, prince etc etc etc must account for a substantial part of the scripture. We are told that if we can't obey natural authority we will never obey heavenly authority.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 22, 2015 1:22:35 GMT -5
So if I understand this right, meetings and conventions are held on the authority of man. There is no direction of the spirit then??? I guess that is why there is so much confusion on this board because I was lead to believe that workers and friends followed the direction of God. When Paul said he was led of the spirit, and provided leadership to his church, was he being contrary? NO, Paul wasn't being contrary, -just arrogant! ehum.., a bit like someone else who posts here!
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 22, 2015 1:25:32 GMT -5
Great post Ross ! Yes, how man loves to controls others and if they don't comply with their rules well they are lost. I take it you guys don't REALLY read your bible, do you? Authority, obeying, master and servant, older and younger, parents and children, government, king, prince etc etc etc must account for a substantial part of the scripture. We are told that if we can't obey natural authority we will never obey heavenly authority. Another Newbie who has read his bible more than all of the rest of us put together!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 22, 2015 1:31:49 GMT -5
Great post Ross ! Yes, how man loves to controls others and if they don't comply with their rules well they are lost. I take it you guys don't REALLY read your bible, do you? Authority, obeying, master and servant, older and younger, parents and children, government, king, prince etc etc etc must account for a substantial part of the scripture. We are told that if we can't obey natural authority we will never obey heavenly authority.Which Bible would that be Bert ? The one that has been translated how many times, the one that King James had translated for "The Church Of England" ? Hebrew, Greek or do you have a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 1:39:27 GMT -5
Great post Ross ! Yes, how man loves to controls others and if they don't comply with their rules well they are lost. I take it you guys don't REALLY read your bible, do you? Authority, obeying, master and servant, older and younger, parents and children, government, king, prince etc etc etc must account for a substantial part of the scripture. We are told that if we can't obey natural authority we will never obey heavenly authority.By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 1:43:36 GMT -5
What, do I have to trawl through the entire New Testament again, just to make a point?
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