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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 14:43:47 GMT -5
Emy, since every older worker I knew from my youth up taught me and believed as I do regarding God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and many continue to believe this way until today, are you saying they lied, or believed something from Satan? Just doesn't compute for me.
A couple of years ago, I happened to be on a family news letter, mentioned a thought which I then discovered conflicted with other members who insisted upon your beliefs. When my Cousin, still a "worker", now in another country, offered a supporting view to my own, a number, including him and myself left over the insuing ruckus, for which I was blamed because of the thought I was dumb enough to share. If you would honestly like to know what I believe and why from my study in several languages, you can pm me and ask. I will tell you with the absolute provision you do not remove even one sentence from context.
Once I wrote someone something in pm privately. It was taken entirely from its context, published openly here making me out to be something I am not, and expressing something entirely different by removing from context, with their spin upon it. Others in this forum quickly jumped on that bandwagon, also attempting to make me look bad from that taken from context, for whatever reason of their own. Yes I lost respect for the person who did that. I just took it, learned from it, and purposed in the future never to allow such to happen to me again.
In absolutely everything since my excommunication I have attempted to put in writing, with kept copies so I could refute those who took things from context. Still, people do, as was done here. None doing so have ever asked ME for clarification on what was intended by what was written. Huge sigh! Live and learn!
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Post by snow on Jul 22, 2015 15:53:01 GMT -5
Right.
I think that most all biblical scholars agree that it was Paul that made Jesus into the "Christ."
Well if that's the case, then I feel that most biblical scholars are wrong, Paul was of God, and you can tell from his teachings that he had the spirit of God in his heart. Anyone with the spirit in their hearts will know this, and they will also see Christ through Paul. And I believe it was God who revealed that Jesus was the Christ to Pauls heart. As he did to Peters. Matthew 16 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven So Jesus was revealed as the Christ to Peter well before Paul came along. So Paul didn't "make" Jesus into the Christ at all! Like those of us who truly believe, we know Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Not just some good man speaking good things like many seem to believe! And Paul was teaching exactly this, that Jesus is the Christ, and that he is the way, the truth and the life. And Paul showed that the only way to God, is through following Jesus. People make all kinds of statements but most of the time they have never studied other religions, what they believed and what happened before Jesus became a Christ. Yet they feel they have the right to say that the scholars that have done the studies, are wrong? There are a lot of things in Christianity which were already beliefs in older religions. They dying/rising Godman is not unique and Jesus was not the first. It is based on older religious beliefs. Have a look at some of the similarities. listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 22, 2015 16:03:01 GMT -5
There's endless numerous threads on it, emy, now you want another one !! There are books written on the subject, all speaking to the same verses used over and over by folks here, both pro and con....buy a book I say and be done with it here
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Post by xna on Jul 22, 2015 16:14:26 GMT -5
There's endless numerous threads on it, emy, now you want another one !! There are books written on the subject, all speaking to the same verses used over and over by folks here, both pro and con....buy a book I say and be done with it here I always found it interesting that the workers, in my day didn't want you to read anything but the bible, as that was enough, preaching on Rev 22: 18"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" yet www.christianbook.com offers 547,275 different Christian books!
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 22, 2015 16:25:01 GMT -5
There are books written on the subject, all speaking to the same verses used over and over by folks here, both pro and con....buy a book I say and be done with it here I always found it interesting that the workers, in my day didn't want you to read anything but the bible, as that was enough, preaching on Rev 22: 18"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" yet www.christianbook.com offers 547,275 different Christian books! I don't think the workers' view on that has changed much--at least books about scripture are still frowned on in my neck of the woods.
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Post by snow on Jul 22, 2015 17:19:36 GMT -5
I always found it interesting that the workers, in my day didn't want you to read anything but the bible, as that was enough, preaching on Rev 22: 18"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" yet www.christianbook.com offers 547,275 different Christian books! I don't think the workers' view on that has changed much--at least books about scripture are still frowned on in my neck of the woods. It isn't much wonder how some groups are kept in the dark if they aren't supposed to study how their religion started, what happened over the years or what other religions believe and what they are like. Catholics also have a list of books they aren't supposed to read. Me, I'd probably start at book one and read read read lol...
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Post by xna on Jul 22, 2015 17:44:29 GMT -5
I don't think the workers' view on that has changed much--at least books about scripture are still frowned on in my neck of the woods. It isn't much wonder how some groups are kept in the dark if they aren't supposed to study how their religion started, what happened over the years or what other religions believe and what they are like. Catholics also have a list of books they aren't supposed to read. Me, I'd probably start at book one and read read read lol... Controlling what books you can read should be a big red flag.
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Post by emy on Jul 22, 2015 20:16:45 GMT -5
There's endless numerous threads on it, emy, now you want another one !! If someone keeps suggesting it to me (Ross) I will keep professing what I believe. As I told Ross, I have seen the Trinity scripture argument. What I wanted to know was about the requirement that Jesus must be God to make his sacrifice for sins acceptable. AND if it was a God sacrifice required, why did a man need to come to this earth?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 0:29:03 GMT -5
There are books written on the subject, all speaking to the same verses used over and over by folks here, both pro and con....buy a book I say and be done with it here No, we don't want another Trinity thread... An excellent book about the character of God (probably the best I have read) is by Broughton Knox - a wonderful man and teacher - called "The Everlasting God". Link to matthias media here (Aussie based site) but I'm sure is available on Amazon/Book Depository etc. www.matthiasmedia.com.au/the-everlasting-godAn excellent book about the character of God, is the bible. (Probably the best I've read)
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Post by Mary on Jul 23, 2015 1:00:16 GMT -5
It seems some don't understand the character of God by reading the Bible. If everyone did there would not a disagreement over it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 23, 2015 2:14:49 GMT -5
Right.
I think that most all biblical scholars agree that it was Paul that made Jesus into the "Christ."
Well if that's the case, then I feel that most biblical scholars are wrong, Paul was of God, and you can tell from his teachings that he had the spirit of God in his heart. Anyone with the spirit in their hearts will know this, and they will also see Christ through Paul. And I believe it was God who revealed that Jesus was the Christ to Pauls heart. As he did to Peters. Matthew 16 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven So Jesus was revealed as the Christ to Peter well before Paul came along. So Paul didn't "make" Jesus into the Christ at all! Like those of us who truly believe, we know Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Not just some good man speaking good things like many seem to believe! And Paul was teaching exactly this, that Jesus is the Christ, and that he is the way, the truth and the life. And Paul showed that the only way to God, is through following Jesus. Well, Maryhig, -a lot of people don't like to have their own beliefs questioned by biblical scholars!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 5:00:42 GMT -5
Well if that's the case, then I feel that most biblical scholars are wrong, Paul was of God, and you can tell from his teachings that he had the spirit of God in his heart. Anyone with the spirit in their hearts will know this, and they will also see Christ through Paul. And I believe it was God who revealed that Jesus was the Christ to Pauls heart. As he did to Peters. Matthew 16 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven So Jesus was revealed as the Christ to Peter well before Paul came along. So Paul didn't "make" Jesus into the Christ at all! Like those of us who truly believe, we know Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Not just some good man speaking good things like many seem to believe! And Paul was teaching exactly this, that Jesus is the Christ, and that he is the way, the truth and the life. And Paul showed that the only way to God, is through following Jesus. Well, Maryhig, -a lot of people don't like to have their own beliefs questioned by biblical scholars! I don't mind my beliefs being questioned at all, as you've probably seen on here as it happens often enough, I just don't think it's right to dismiss such a strong man of God like Paul. And anyone who does this, hasn't Got the spirit, and they don't know what they are talking about. And if a biblical scholar believes this and they believe in God, then they're in the wrong job!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 10:14:47 GMT -5
Well, this "Bible Scholar" of over 60 years knows about Hebrew/Aramaic ha-Meshiach and it's Greek synonym ""Christos" (biblical words used over 500 times) many reportedly recorded even before Paul was on the scene. And yes, I know of and can find every place so used.
Not really ha-Meshiach? Amazing! Wonderful scholarship! Will I continue to believe what I know, or change to what someone else has reportedly said? Yes, I've read who, what, where and when a number of those so trusted Bible scholars assert. Amazing to me, usually accompanied by assertions like no proof of KIng David having ever lived, etc. People, unknowing, just drink it up like a favorite beverage. Well, after years of study, in multiple languages, I do not! I answer for what I believe, and why, not what others believe, nor why they believe it!
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2015 13:37:05 GMT -5
An excellent book about the character of God, is the bible. (Probably the best I've read) :) And the best thing is that it is so unambiguous that everyone who reads it gets the same understanding!
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 23, 2015 13:49:55 GMT -5
An excellent book about the character of God, is the bible. (Probably the best I've read) And the best thing is that it is so unambiguous that everyone who reads it gets the same understanding! Ha! A little Gibran comes to mind: “No man can reveal to you aught but that which already lies half asleep in the dawning of your knowledge. The teacher who walks in the shadow of the temple, among his followers, gives not of his wisdom but rather of his faith and his lovingness. If he is indeed wise he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind.” I think this is the point of of any "teacher" in life, including the Bible. That might be hard for a "rational" mind to grasp, much less accept!
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2015 13:54:09 GMT -5
Matthew 16 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven So Jesus was revealed as the Christ to Peter well before Paul came along. So Paul didn't "make" Jesus into the Christ at all! Like those of us who truly believe, we know Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Not just some good man speaking good things like many seem to believe! And Paul was teaching exactly this, that Jesus is the Christ, and that he is the way, the truth and the life. And Paul showed that the only way to God, is through following Jesus. The reliability of the timing of when Matthew was written is not on solid ground. There is no way to determine whether Paul wrote first or second. Having Jesus mention taking up a cross seems a little out of place when he had not yet experienced the cross.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 17:10:46 GMT -5
Matthew 16 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven So Jesus was revealed as the Christ to Peter well before Paul came along. So Paul didn't "make" Jesus into the Christ at all! Like those of us who truly believe, we know Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Not just some good man speaking good things like many seem to believe! And Paul was teaching exactly this, that Jesus is the Christ, and that he is the way, the truth and the life. And Paul showed that the only way to God, is through following Jesus. The reliability of the timing of when Matthew was written is not on solid ground. There is no way to determine whether Paul wrote first or second. Having Jesus mention taking up a cross seems a little out of place when he had not yet experienced the cross. Hiya Rational, He's talking about his body the cross.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 23, 2015 17:33:49 GMT -5
Well, Maryhig, -a lot of people don't like to have their own beliefs questioned by biblical scholars! I don't mind my beliefs being questioned at all, as you've probably seen on here as it happens often enough, I just don't think it's right to dismiss such a strong man of God like Paul. And anyone who does this, hasn't Got the spirit, and they don't know what they are talking about. And if a biblical scholar believes this and they believe in God, then they're in the wrong job! I don't believe that I said that Biblical Scholars "dismissed" Paul.
The very opposite if anything! -they more or less believe that had not Paul spread his own belief in Jesus as the Christ, that the whole Christian movement would have not have gone very far!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 23, 2015 17:49:57 GMT -5
I don't mind my beliefs being questioned at all, as you've probably seen on here as it happens often enough, I just don't think it's right to dismiss such a strong man of God like Paul. And anyone who does this, hasn't Got the spirit, and they don't know what they are talking about. And if a biblical scholar believes this and they believe in God, then they're in the wrong job! I don't believe that I said that Biblical Scholars "dismissed" Paul.
The very opposite if anything! -they more or less believe that had not Paul spread his own belief in Jesus as the Christ, that the whole Christian movement would have not have gone very far!Ah right, but Paul didn't spread his own belief that Jesus is Christ. God revealed this to Peter whilst Jesus was still alive, Paul didn't follow Jesus until after Jesus had died and risen. So Peter heard this from God way before Paul preached it.
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2015 20:37:03 GMT -5
The reliability of the timing of when Matthew was written is not on solid ground. There is no way to determine whether Paul wrote first or second. Having Jesus mention taking up a cross seems a little out of place when he had not yet experienced the cross. Hiya Rational, He's talking about his body the cross. I don't think so. He is talking about the implement on which he died - warning his followers of the possible ending they could face. A good indication of the fact that Matthew was written following the death of Jesus. If not - why would anyone mention a cross?
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Post by snow on Jul 23, 2015 20:39:09 GMT -5
Well, Maryhig, -a lot of people don't like to have their own beliefs questioned by biblical scholars! I don't mind my beliefs being questioned at all, as you've probably seen on here as it happens often enough, I just don't think it's right to dismiss such a strong man of God like Paul. And anyone who does this, hasn't Got the spirit, and they don't know what they are talking about. And if a biblical scholar believes this and they believe in God, then they're in the wrong job! I guess that would be me then, because reading about Paul and understanding the history behind Paul certainly leads me to dismiss Paul as an apostle. However I do believe that Christianity as we know it definitely was formed by Paul and not Jesus. I believe Jesus would have been appalled by Paul... Of course I don't have the spirit of God so I probably can be dismissed also. But I have done a lot of reading and research if that counts.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 25, 2015 9:28:37 GMT -5
Hiya Rational, He's talking about his body the cross. I don't think so. He is talking about the implement on which he died - warning his followers of the possible ending they could face. A good indication of the fact that Matthew was written following the death of Jesus. If not - why would anyone mention a cross? Do you think? The only thing us he tells us to take up our cross, and deny ourselves and follow him, and i can't see that being a wooden cross. And for us to be crucified literally.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 25, 2015 11:24:52 GMT -5
I don't mind my beliefs being questioned at all, as you've probably seen on here as it happens often enough, I just don't think it's right to dismiss such a strong man of God like Paul. And anyone who does this, hasn't Got the spirit, and they don't know what they are talking about. And if a biblical scholar believes this and they believe in God, then they're in the wrong job! I guess that would be me then, because reading about Paul and understanding the history behind Paul certainly leads me to dismiss Paul as an apostle. However I do believe that Christianity as we know it definitely was formed by Paul and not Jesus. I believe Jesus would have been appalled by Paul... Of course I don't have the spirit of God so I probably can be dismissed also. But I have done a lot of reading and research if that counts. Hi snow, no, I was talking about biblical scholars who profess to know God and say they believe, because if they truly knew God, then they would know that Paul's teachings were of God by the things he was saying. You can hear Christ through Paul. What is it you have read that makes you feel that Jesus would have been appalled by Paul? If you don't mind me asking. And I wouldn't dismiss you at all. I'm interested in why you think this?
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Post by snow on Jul 25, 2015 12:47:15 GMT -5
I guess that would be me then, because reading about Paul and understanding the history behind Paul certainly leads me to dismiss Paul as an apostle. However I do believe that Christianity as we know it definitely was formed by Paul and not Jesus. I believe Jesus would have been appalled by Paul... Of course I don't have the spirit of God so I probably can be dismissed also. But I have done a lot of reading and research if that counts. Hi snow, no, I was talking about biblical scholars who profess to know God and say they believe, because if they truly knew God, then they would know that Paul's teachings were of God by the things he was saying. You can hear Christ through Paul. What is it you have read that makes you feel that Jesus would have been appalled by Paul? If you don't mind me asking. And I wouldn't dismiss you at all. I'm interested in why you think this? Just quickly because I need to go babysit grandkids. Paul doesn't seem to like women, but Jesus always stuck up for them. Jesus believed in the Jewish Law and in fact felt it needed to be taken even further. Paul allowed the gentiles which I think Jesus would not have approved. I know everyone believes Paul saw Jesus in a vision, but that doesn't wash with me of course. Paul was at odds with the original apostles and on one visit James had to hide him and he made him go through a ritual of repentance so people wouldn't attack Paul. These are just a few things I see as big difference between the Gospel of Jesus and the Gospel of Paul. I do think Christianity survived and reflects Pauls love for rules and dislike of women. Sorry gotta run. Ttyl.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 26, 2015 18:18:18 GMT -5
Hi snow, no, I was talking about biblical scholars who profess to know God and say they believe, because if they truly knew God, then they would know that Paul's teachings were of God by the things he was saying. You can hear Christ through Paul. What is it you have read that makes you feel that Jesus would have been appalled by Paul? If you don't mind me asking. And I wouldn't dismiss you at all. I'm interested in why you think this? Just quickly because I need to go babysit grandkids. Paul doesn't seem to like women, but Jesus always stuck up for them. Jesus believed in the Jewish Law and in fact felt it needed to be taken even further. Paul allowed the gentiles which I think Jesus would not have approved. I know everyone believes Paul saw Jesus in a vision, but that doesn't wash with me of course. Paul was at odds with the original apostles and on one visit James had to hide him and he made him go through a ritual of repentance so people wouldn't attack Paul. These are just a few things I see as big difference between the Gospel of Jesus and the Gospel of Paul. I do think Christianity survived and reflects Pauls love for rules and dislike of women. Sorry gotta run. Ttyl. Hi again Paul didn't like women? why would you think that? I wouldn't have thought he was like that. In Galatians 3 Paul says clearly that men and women are equal Galatians 3 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And I believe Jesus did come to save the gentiles also, when Jesus was born, Simeon said a prophesy and a blessing and he said this. Luke 2 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. So it wasn't just Paul who said Jesus had come for the gentiles, Simeon also said it. Then Jesus himself said in the parable of the wicked tenants Luke 20 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. The husbandmen are the Jews at the time who rejected him, and the others I believe are the gentiles. Also in the parable of the wedding feast, in Matthew 22. Jesus said in the parable that when the original chosen ones were called by the king, they were too busy within there own lives to come. And they were not worthy. So he told his servants to go out into the highways and the byways and bring in the good and the bad. I believe that these are the gentiles. And also in Matthew 21 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. I believe these are also the gentiles, but those gentiles once they accept Christ and become his, they then, through following him receive the holy spirit of God and through him the circumcision of the heart. Which is the removal of our sins in our hearts cleaning us from within so others see it outwardly, and our sins are replaced with love. And we can be a guide to others, showing them Christ in our hearts through our lives. Through love, mercy and kindness humbleness and forgiveness. And finally when Jesus sent his deciples to preach, he said to preach to all the world and to everyone! Not just the Jews. Mark 16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 26, 2015 18:42:58 GMT -5
I don't believe that I said that Biblical Scholars "dismissed" Paul.
The very opposite if anything! -they more or less believe that had not Paul spread his own belief in Jesus as the Christ, that the whole Christian movement would have not have gone very far! Ah right, but Paul didn't spread his own belief that Jesus is Christ. God revealed this to Peter whilst Jesus was still alive, Paul didn't follow Jesus until after Jesus had died and risen. So Peter heard this from God way before Paul preached it. You are missing the point about Paul. It isn't even about to the timing of Peter or Paul.
It is that Paul was quite a learned man, a scholar. Peter was not. Had Christianity been dependent on being spread by Peter or the other apostles, -it would have looked different today & may NOT have even survived as the religion that it is.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2015 21:13:33 GMT -5
Maryhig, the reason why I think Paul wasn't all that keen on women was some of the things he made as rules for them. One of them was saying they couldn't talk in church. But there were others too that have led me to believe he wasn't someone who held women in high esteem like Jesus did. Also, when Jesus sent his apostles out, he told them to not go to the gentiles. Paul is the one that vetoed that decision and did go to the gentiles and decided circumcision etc wasn't needed. We really only have Paul's word on all these changes coming to him from Jesus. I don't believe it myself. He was a Hellenistic Jew with a bundle of very different ideas from the Jerusalem Jews. That is why he was at odds with them and in the few times he did go visit them Peter and James were really the only ones that bothered to see him and on at least one occasion he had to undergo some of the purification rituals so the people didn't attack him. Even then his life was in danger because of his stance within the new religion. For me, Jesus and Paul were so far apart in beliefs and attitude there was really no comparison. I do believe the current brand of Christianity did come from Paul and not Jesus. The early Jewish Christians held very different beliefs from what Christians do today. Jesus welcomed women into the church and in fairness Paul did have some with him too, but it quickly changed when the Romans entered the Christianity equation. The Gnostics did believe in equality between men and women as far as church leaders went and they also didn't believe Jesus was God. However, the RCC did a pretty good number on getting rid of most of their writings and scripture. If they hadn't found what is referred to as the Nag Hammadi Library, we still wouldn't know a whole lot about what they believed. These are my thoughts on the issue from what I have read and the bible also.
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Post by snow on Jul 26, 2015 21:15:14 GMT -5
Ah right, but Paul didn't spread his own belief that Jesus is Christ. God revealed this to Peter whilst Jesus was still alive, Paul didn't follow Jesus until after Jesus had died and risen. So Peter heard this from God way before Paul preached it. You are missing the point about Paul. It isn't even about to the timing of Peter or Paul.
It is that Paul was quite a learned man, a scholar. Peter was not. Had Christianity been dependent on being spread by Peter or the other apostles, -it would have looked different today & may NOT have even survived as the religion that it is.I pretty much agree with this. It would never have evolved past the Jewish people if Paul hadn't gone that route. It likely wouldn't have ever interested the Romans either. It would have just remained a small Jewish sect which may or may not have made it.
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