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Post by emy on Jul 17, 2015 21:04:32 GMT -5
k Because the cross is the power of God to those who are saved. 1 Cor 1:18 "Foolishness to those who perish but the power of God to those who are saved. " This might be picking nits, but the verse you mention does not exactly say THE CROSS is the power of God. Here it is from KJV For the preaching (many versions say 'message') of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 22:43:44 GMT -5
So the Cross is not the power of God, only preaching it is? Why preach something you do not believe in? Is the message of the Cross power to those who are saved or not? I have a message for you but do not believe it? Time to come home but do not come home? can you see the difference?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 23:39:34 GMT -5
Ratz When the crown of thorns were placed on the head of Jesus he would have begun to bleed. When his hands were pierced with nails and his feet more blood would have been shed. Carrying the cross on his back possibly caused abrasions and cuts. My point is I doubt no blood was shed prior to the piercing in his side. Furthermore, Bubbles, to claim there was no bloodshed in His scourging, leaving Him too weak to even carry His cross, indicates to me just how little people really know of the record of His death. There was a bloodshed reason why He died before the others that day.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 0:46:12 GMT -5
Ratz When the crown of thorns were placed on the head of Jesus he would have begun to bleed. When his hands were pierced with nails and his feet more blood would have been shed. Carrying the cross on his back possibly caused abrasions and cuts. My point is I doubt no blood was shed prior to the piercing in his side. Furthermore, Bubbles, to claim there was no bloodshed in His scourging, leaving Him too weak to even carry His cross, indicates to me just how little people really know of the record of His death. There was a bloodshed reason why He died before the others that day.historical whip (someone) as a punishment. "our people did scourge him severely" synonyms: flog, whip, beat, horsewhip, lash, flagellate, flail, strap, birch, cane, thrash, belt, leather i would say that more likely there would have been blood drawn at the first stroke
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 1:13:35 GMT -5
why would anyone like what happened on the cross? God didn't like it so why should we? Absolutely nothing to like about it naturally - to the human mind it represents death and defeat. Absolutely everything to like about it spiritually - to the spiritual mind it represents life and victory - forever. Bert had a good point, i don't know if the f&w wear crosses on their necks, but we don't, we see it as wrong. Anyway I know many Christians do wear the cross around their necks, if it's not so important, why wear it? I think it's wrong. Not only to wear the murder weapon of Jesus around your neck, but making it of gold, sometimes crystals, sometimes even having Jesus hanging on it. People kiss their cross, pray to the cross, worship the cross by bowing down to it make the cross holy. In fact, the cross is an idol. I see that to do these things as an abomination to God! So you can't say that to many Christians, the actual cross isn't important, I think it is!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 2:27:09 GMT -5
Absolutely nothing to like about it naturally - to the human mind it represents death and defeat. Absolutely everything to like about it spiritually - to the spiritual mind it represents life and victory - forever. Bert had a good point, i don't know if the f&w wear crosses on their necks, but we don't, we see it as wrong. Anyway I know many Christians do wear the cross around their necks, if it's not so important, why wear it? I think it's wrong. Not only to wear the murder weapon of Jesus around your neck, but making it of gold, sometimes crystals, sometimes even having Jesus hanging on it. People kiss their cross, pray to the cross, worship the cross by bowing down to it make the cross holy. In fact, the cross is an idol. I see that to do these things as an abomination to God! So you can't say that to many Christians, the actual cross isn't important, I think it is! it was the cruelest death possible, the cross on which Jesus was hung was the instrument of cruelty we also don't wear a man made image of the cross of cruelty
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 2:29:18 GMT -5
Bert had a good point, i don't know if the f&w wear crosses on their necks, but we don't, we see it as wrong. Anyway I know many Christians do wear the cross around their necks, if it's not so important, why wear it? I think it's wrong. Not only to wear the murder weapon of Jesus around your neck, but making it of gold, sometimes crystals, sometimes even having Jesus hanging on it. People kiss their cross, pray to the cross, worship the cross by bowing down to it make the cross holy. In fact, the cross is an idol. I see that to do these things as an abomination to God! So you can't say that to many Christians, the actual cross isn't important, I think it is! it was the cruelest death possible, the cross on which Jesus was hung was the instrument of cruelty we also don't wear a man made image of the cross of cruelty Virgo, that's great . Nor do we, and I totally agree with you!
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Post by Mary on Jul 18, 2015 3:11:50 GMT -5
People wear the empty Cross to symbolize He is risen. Catholics wear one with Jesus on. I don't like that but don't mind people wearing the empty Cross but not my thing tho.
Why have bread and wine each Sunday, if you don't like remembering His death on the Cross?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 3:45:55 GMT -5
People wear the empty Cross to symbolize He is risen. Catholics wear one with Jesus on. I don't like that but don't mind people wearing the empty Cross but not my thing tho. Why have bread and wine each Sunday, if you don't like remembering His death on the Cross? do one's need an empty idol around the neck to remember His death on the Cross?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 4:12:05 GMT -5
People wear the empty Cross to symbolize He is risen. Catholics wear one with Jesus on. I don't like that but don't mind people wearing the empty Cross but not my thing tho. Why have bread and wine each Sunday, if you don't like remembering His death on the Cross? I think wearing a cross is wrong, it's a murder weapon! The bread and wine to us symbolises his life not his death! As Jesus said to take it in remembrance of him, not of his death on the cross! 1 Corinthians 11 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drinkit, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. We have to take in his life and his word and live it and speak it out. Showing his death till he comes. Which is death to self. Denying the flesh and the world!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 4:18:07 GMT -5
And so it goes...
Saying what is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, for another, does not make it so. If something is an idol to you, certainly you should not have one! If it is a symbol of one's Lord and His resurrection as constant reminder to another, why in the world would any of you so bent on not judging, ever want to do so for another believer, if not to shove your opinion off on them? No, those of you so adamant such a thing is wrong, are not trampling on my toes!
Nonetheless, I Make these comments merely to point out what anyone is doing by making such comments regarding such a custom. Surely, making such adament judgement for another not understanding why they might chose it, and then to condemn them for it and thus them as being "wrong" "wrong" "wrong" should cause the ones making such assertions, to go look in a mirror! Let those be until you can understand the meaning it has for them! Some have explained it to me, and I do understand what it might mean and represent to them.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 4:24:51 GMT -5
And so it goes...
Saying what is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, for another, does not make it so. If something is an idol to you, certainly you should not have one! If it is a symbol of one's Lord and His resurrection as constant reminder to another, why in the world would any of you so bent on not judging, ever want to do so for another believer, if not to shove your opinion off on them? No, those of you so adamant such a thing is wrong, are not trampling on my toes!
Nonetheless, I Make these comments merely to point out what anyone are doing regarding such a custom. Surely, making such judgement for another not understanding why they might chose it, and condemn them it and thus them as being "wrong" "wrong" "wrong" should cause the ones making such assertions, to go look in a mirror! Let those be until you can understand the meaning it has for them! Some have explained it to me, and I do understand what it might mean and represent to them. Dennis I believe it's wrong to wear a cross, others believe it's right. I see as a murder weapon. Others see it as holy. I'm not judging anyone's heart. I'm just saying I don't believe in wearing a cross. If you do, then that's your beliefs. But I have my beliefs also! By the way, the reason I wrote it in the first place is because Ross said the wooden cross isn't important. I'm just showing that to many people it is!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 4:31:17 GMT -5
Okay.
Please consider you also may be wrong about it, and not be so hasty to condemn others. Indeed, If it is wrong for you, then it is wrong for you!
Nonetheless, That does NOT make such wrong for another!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 4:45:40 GMT -5
Okay.
Please consider you also may be wrong about it, and not be so hasty to condemn others. Indeed, If it is wrong for you, then it is wrong for you!
Nonetheless, That does NOT make such wrong for another! I haven't condemned anyone, I believe it's wrong in my heart to wear a cross, because Jesus was murdered on it. That's my beliefs. But regardless of wearing a cross or not, God looks at the heart. I'm just saying that some people do worship the cross by bowing down to it, and praying to it! I just believe there's too much emphasis on the cross and not enough on Jesus' life and what we have to do to follow him, it does say to worship God and worship him alone! And I'm definitely not saying anything personal about you! We have to go with what's right in our own hearts, that's what is right in mine!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 5:12:18 GMT -5
The verses you have Maryhig clearly say that the bread and wine symbolize Jesus broken body and blood - clearly his death on the Cross. No i believe it's clearly his suffering in the flesh, death to self! Denying Satan and the world! Taking all temptations and denying them. He said it before he went on the cross!
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Post by Mary on Jul 18, 2015 5:13:50 GMT -5
I'm not sure that any one wearing a cross around their neck would use it as an idol any more than the bread and wine is an idol.
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Post by Mary on Jul 18, 2015 5:20:18 GMT -5
As the verse you quoted above Maryhig as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you show/ remember the Lord's death until He comes.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 5:21:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure that any one wearing a cross around their neck would use it as an idol any more than the bread and wine is an idol. You reckon? What about when they're made of gold and diamonds, or bowed down to and worshipped, or made central to a shrine covered in flowers etc, or when it's revered, would that not then be seen as an idol? As for Jesus' suffering, 1 Peter 4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin. And as Peter said, we have to suffer also, which is taking up our cross and denying sin!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 5:25:52 GMT -5
As the verse you quoted above Maryhig as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you show/ remember the Lord's death until He comes. No it says show (not remember) the lords death till he comes, we have to show it not remember it, it says in the bible to remember Jesus when you break the bread and drink from the cup and that's his whole life. He didn't say take this in rememberance of my death in the cross, He said in rememberance of me!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 5:56:27 GMT -5
You don't like the Cross. To me it is central to salvation. I cannot give my life for the sins of the world. Jesus poured his life out on the Cross for us. If it was not God's plan then God messed up and is not all powerful. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Of course we suffer, everyone suffers, it is part of being human. The Bible is clear. The problem comes when you try and make it say something it doesn't by trying to find some other meaning. Every Christian has got it wrong according to you. Any one can follow a man. Follow Ghandi if you like but for Christians that does not give salvation nor does trying to live a good life save us. We cannot save ourselves. For Christians Christ saved us by going to the Cross and shedding his blood so we can be forgiven. Not our own works lest any man should boast but what Christ has done. Break the bread and drink the cup is his death. Muslims do not have assurance of salvation until they die. If they work hard enough they might make it. Christians on the other hand know they are saved because Jesus died to save them. He paid the price by going to the Cross but the grave could not contain him and he is risen. I will not post about this again. I don't believe as you do, and the suffering isn't the same suffering as everyone else, it's self denial, it's denying sin. You can think of me as you like, but I'm not saying that you're all wrong, I just don't believe that the cross is the be all and end all to Jesus. It's his whole life that's important to me. And he didn't do it all, we have to follow him by taking up our cross also. And I keep saying it's not our works, but the work of God in our hearts, our works are believing and living out what God has put into our hearts and following Jesus. But for some reason our own works keep getting brought up! And the bible is clear, and it clearly says it was wicked hands that crucified Jesus and that it was wrong! Just like Peter, Paul and Jesus himself said, they all said that it was wrong to kill him! Gods plan was perfect, and Jesus came to bring the truth and show us the way and deny sin, and in doing this he overcame Satan. And i agree, there's no point in going on.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 18, 2015 6:15:28 GMT -5
If it was just his life then there would be no forgiveness of sin. I agree that is one part of the Gospel but without that there would be no forgiveness which is the central theme of Christianity. I know it would have been better if God had made us all perfect to start with. No pain, no suffering, no bad but all good. Paradise on earth. Did I say I wasn't going to post anymore on it. I forgot but I remember now. Mary, I hope you know I'm not getting personal with you, I'm stating my beliefs, just as you are.? I believe we have to endure to the end to be saved, our past sins I believe are forgiven when we take Christ into our hearts. But I also believe from then on, we turn away from sin, and Christ gives us the strength to overcome if we truly believe and keep our faith.
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Post by snow on Jul 18, 2015 12:45:36 GMT -5
Why do you need to be saved from a loving God anyway? That's something I have never understood. If God is all knowing, all loving, all merciful, all powerful and all forgiving, he wouldn't hurt anyone in the first place. He would never allow anyone to be sent to hell. So all this talk about sinning and needing to have a blood sacrifice to have someone else's sins forgiven doesn't make sense to me at all. And, if Jesus is God, why would he die on the Cross so Christians can be saved from his own wrath when all he had to do was forgive them? There was absolutely no reason for his death for salvation when he had a whole bunch of other options. The only reason is the pagan ritual of blood sacrifice to appease an angry God. It's very obvious but no one seems to understand that once they've bought into being told they are sinners that can displease God and being sent to hell. That is a great way to stir up peoples guilt and shame and fear. Lots of control in getting people to fear for their eternal afterlife. Hell isn't a place that has always been believed in. But it sure does the trick to get people to worry about it. The Trinity group have kind of got around that by saying they are saved by grace and it is very easy to see why that particular mindset won. No one like to not be assured of something as critical as a good afterlife. But it was not the belief of the early church and there were lots of Christian groups that definitely didn't believe Jesus was God. That is a Catholic thing that some Protestant denominations carried over into their belief systems. A lot of blood was shed on this particular subject, lots of priests and bishops within the church excommunicated and/or executed to try and get this belief mainstream. As an outsider looking in I wonder how people can't see this? Never bothered to research the history of the early churches possibly? However, when I see groups arguing about who is right and who is wrong I can't help but think, leave each other alone to believe whatever comforts them. That's what religion is all about anyway, believing in something that brings them a sense of security and comfort. From where I'm standing it doesn't matter what religions believe because imo none of it is right anyway, so allow others to believe what they want if it brings them peace of mind. In the end it doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. With all the religions in this world the likelihood of being in the only right one isn't good odds. However, it's important to those who do believe in a God to have some peace of mind that comes from them feeling assured that they have it right. Fighting over doctrine seems like fighting over whether white is black or purple. It's pointless and just causes hard feelings.
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Post by emy on Jul 18, 2015 20:13:20 GMT -5
... I know it would have been better if God had made us all perfect to start with. No pain, no suffering, no bad but all good. Paradise on earth. ... Well... I think He did, didn't he?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 20:22:00 GMT -5
And so it goes...
Saying what is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, for another, does not make it so. If something is an idol to you, certainly you should not have one! If it is a symbol of one's Lord and His resurrection as constant reminder to another, why in the world would any of you so bent on not judging, ever want to do so for another believer, if not to shove your opinion off on them? No, those of you so adamant such a thing is wrong, are not trampling on my toes!
Nonetheless, I Make these comments merely to point out what anyone is doing by making such comments regarding such a custom. Surely, making such adament judgement for another not understanding why they might chose it, and then to condemn them for it and thus them as being "wrong" "wrong" "wrong" should cause the ones making such assertions, to go look in a mirror! Let those be until you can understand the meaning it has for them! Some have explained it to me, and I do understand what it might mean and represent to them. i think the point should be, is it wrong in Gods eyes but also saying it is right, right, right, for another, does not make it so either. so it puts the wrongers and the righters in the same park of judgement also don't you think then that pointing out as what you believe as wrong about what others think is right, is also a judgement?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 20:24:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure that any one wearing a cross around their neck would use it as an idol any more than the bread and wine is an idol. the bread and wine were a commandment of Jesus, the cross was definitely not
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Post by Mary on Jul 18, 2015 20:27:56 GMT -5
We were told to take up our Cross - and follow him. Note: Take up our Cross is a command.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 21:44:49 GMT -5
Where did I make a judgement and say something was "Right?" Is it fair to try to put words in anyone else's mouth, then attack that? Committs more than one fallacy of logic to my understanding.
Now, the Lord, it records, knew people's hearts. Surely we do not.
Please people, don't also commit the fallacy of too few options, black and white, wrong or right. Not how our Lord taught us to live, is it? Except for ourselves. Yes I know the religious examples you have had for decades could not care less about such concepts. So, if that is how you believe should act, think, preach here, by all means, do so. Easy enough to see where such concepts are based upon something false, when they are put forward as basic rules by which another should live.
Now for me, there is no need to further address this issue. Another either comprehends what I have tried to express, or they do not, and that is likely due to my lack of clarity on the topic. Nothing could be further from my mind, thoughts, intentions, than for anyone to think I am advising them to go out, buy some kind of cross and hang it around their neck! Still, if they do, and are not worshipping such a symbol, surely none have any right, spiritual or otherwise to condemn them for doing so, and that IS what I perceived some were attempting to do by the content of the sermons they were preaching here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 21:58:59 GMT -5
We were told to take up our Cross - and follow him. Note: Take up our Cross is a command. now that is different, it is not a solid object what do understand as taking up our cross to mean?
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