|
Post by maryhig on Jul 14, 2015 14:29:02 GMT -5
He shed his blood on the Cross. That is what we remember each time we take the emblems which they took just before He went to the Cross. How often do we sing, we remember calvary. So what does it mean when the deciples had to drink from the cup?
|
|
hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
|
Post by hberry on Jul 14, 2015 14:40:05 GMT -5
He shed his blood on the Cross. That is what we remember each time we take the emblems which they took just before He went to the Cross. How often do we sing, we remember calvary. Yes and yes We who are thankful for Jesus's death on the cross as our atonement for sin are seeking daily to die to self through the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells within. We do 'take up our cross and follow Him' and we are thankful that His blood was shed for the remission of sin. Anyway, I love the words to Calvary. And the words are from someone within the F&W based on the C* "See Him led outside the city, bruised and bearing all our sin, Cruel was the death He suffered, heaven's joy for us to win. Unto to Him who loved and washed us, from our sins in His own blood, We would render thanks and plead for, Grace to love Him as we should." Chorus: "In the bread Thy broken body, in the wine Thy blood we see." I usually tear up and have trouble finish singing it.
|
|
hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
|
Post by hberry on Jul 14, 2015 14:51:57 GMT -5
My Jewish friends assure me that drinking from a cup is part of a very ancient, pre-Jesus tradition of the Passover meal. And here's an article written by a believing Jew about the symbolism of the Passover cup.
"The Passover cup is one of the central symbols of this holiday known as the Feast of Redemption. Yet the original Passover story makes no mention whatsoever of a cup. In fact, the only biblical mention of a cup in connection with Passover is in the New Testament. When Jesus celebrated this feast with His disciples He raised a cup at least twice during the meal to make important statements about Himself (Luke 22:17,20). What is the significance of the cup Jesus uses during His Passover observance?
Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures the cup is often used as a symbol of God's judgment. For example, the cup of fury, the cup of judgment, the cup of trembling and the cup of horror and desolation appear throughout the Old Testament. Yet we also find the Psalmist crying out, I will take up the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord" (Psalm 116:13). So the symbol of the cup carries with it pictures of both wrath and redemption, of judgment and blessing.
None of these references mentions the Passover. Yet, the themes of judgment and salvation are woven together beautifully in the Passover story. God poured out His judgment on the Egyptians, but spared the Israelites who obeyed Him by placing the blood of a lamb on the doorposts of their homes. Each year Jewish families retell these events through the seder, the ceremonial meal that commemorates Passover.
Yet, how the cup became a Passover symbol remains a mystery. We do know that by the time Jesus observed the Passover, drinking a cup during the meal was an official part of the observance. In fact, an ancient rabbinic source, the Mishnah, instructs those celebrating to drink from the cup four times during the Passover seder (Pesahim 10:1). That tradition remains to this day.
Each time the cup is filled, it has a different name. Opinions vary as to what certain cups actually symbolize. Most agree that the first cup is the Kiddush, which means sanctification. With this cup, we begin the Passover seder. The second cup is called the cup of plagues. The third cup is referred to as either the cup of redemption or the cup of blessing. The fourth cup is often called hallel which means praise, though some traditions call it the cup of acceptance while still others use it as the cup of Elijah. The latter combine the second cup (plagues) with hallel—because we praise God for the plagues He used to bring us out of Egypt.
Jewish tradition says little else about the cups—though we're told they should be filled with red wine to remind us of the blood of the Passover lamb.
The New Testament names one of the cups—the cup taken after supper, which is traditionally the third cup. Jesus calls this cup "the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20). The Apostle Paul calls it, "the cup of blessing which we bless," as well as "the cup of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 10:16,21).
Both Jesus and Paul draw on something from Jewish tradition to provide insights not previously understood. By calling the cup "the new covenant in my blood," Jesus makes a direct reference to the promise of Jeremiah 31. God had declared that He would make a new covenant because the previous covenant had become "broken" (Jeremiah 31:32). To violate a covenant agreement with God would surely incur His wrath and judgment—a terrible cup! But instead, God promised a new covenant of grace and salvation.
Jesus declared that this new covenant would be poured from the cup of salvation in His blood. The cup of redemption stood for more than the Hebrews' escape from Egypt; it stood for the plan and purpose of God for all the ages. Judgment and salvation, wrath and redemption are brought together in the mystery of one cup, explained by the Messiah in that upper room. Jesus was not speaking of the cup in a purely symbolic manner. He was describing events that would soon occur in His own life.
Later that evening in the garden of Gethsemane He cried out to the Lord in anguished prayer, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done" (Luke 22:42). In His humanity, Jesus could wish that this cup of judgment—the one that everyone except Him deserved for breaking of God's covenant—would pass over Him. Yet, as the obedient Son of God, Jesus knew that the cup of blessing could only be poured out for the salvation of many if He would first drink the cup of God's judgment on all humanity.
Despite the agony of separation from the Father, our Lord was willing to drink this cup, to bear this judgment, to suffer this horror and death that we might be free and forgiven. No wonder the Apostle Paul calls this "the cup of blessing which we bless." What greater blessing can there be than that which Messiah purchased for us in His death, burial and resurrection?
In calling this the cup of blessing as it was known in the Jewish Passover, the Apostle Paul points out the powerful connection between Passover and Holy Communion. The roots of this sacrament are sunk deep in the eternal plan of God, which is unfolded through the pages of Scripture, as well as in the traditions of God's chosen people, the Jews."
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 14, 2015 14:53:40 GMT -5
My Jewish friends assure me that drinking from a cup is part of the tradition of the Passover meal. And here's an article written by a believing Jew about the symbolism of the Passover cup. "The Passover cup is one of the central symbols of this holiday known as the Feast of Redemption. Yet the original Passover story makes no mention whatsoever of a cup. In fact, the only biblical mention of a cup in connection with Passover is in the New Testament. When Jesus celebrated this feast with His disciples He raised a cup at least twice during the meal to make important statements about Himself (Luke 22:17,20). What is the significance of the cup Jesus uses during His Passover observance? Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures the cup is often used as a symbol of God's judgment. For example, the cup of fury, the cup of judgment, the cup of trembling and the cup of horror and desolation appear throughout the Old Testament. Yet we also find the Psalmist crying out, I will take up the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord" (Psalm 116:13). So the symbol of the cup carries with it pictures of both wrath and redemption, of judgment and blessing. None of these references mentions the Passover. Yet, the themes of judgment and salvation are woven together beautifully in the Passover story. God poured out His judgment on the Egyptians, but spared the Israelites who obeyed Him by placing the blood of a lamb on the doorposts of their homes. Each year Jewish families retell these events through the seder, the ceremonial meal that commemorates Passover. Yet, how the cup became a Passover symbol remains a mystery. We do know that by the time Jesus observed the Passover, drinking a cup during the meal was an official part of the observance. In fact, an ancient rabbinic source, the Mishnah, instructs those celebrating to drink from the cup four times during the Passover seder (Pesahim 10:1). That tradition remains to this day. Each time the cup is filled, it has a different name. Opinions vary as to what certain cups actually symbolize. Most agree that the first cup is the Kiddush, which means sanctification. With this cup, we begin the Passover seder. The second cup is called the cup of plagues. The third cup is referred to as either the cup of redemption or the cup of blessing. The fourth cup is often called hallel which means praise, though some traditions call it the cup of acceptance while still others use it as the cup of Elijah. The latter combine the second cup (plagues) with hallel—because we praise God for the plagues He used to bring us out of Egypt. Jewish tradition says little else about the cups—though we're told they should be filled with red wine to remind us of the blood of the Passover lamb. The New Testament names one of the cups—the cup taken after supper, which is traditionally the third cup. Jesus calls this cup "the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20). The Apostle Paul calls it, "the cup of blessing which we bless," as well as "the cup of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 10:16,21). Both Jesus and Paul draw on something from Jewish tradition to provide insights not previously understood. By calling the cup "the new covenant in my blood," Jesus makes a direct reference to the promise of Jeremiah 31. God had declared that He would make a new covenant because the previous covenant had become "broken" (Jeremiah 31:32). To violate a covenant agreement with God would surely incur His wrath and judgment—a terrible cup! But instead, God promised a new covenant of grace and salvation. Jesus declared that this new covenant would be poured from the cup of salvation in His blood. The cup of redemption stood for more than the Hebrews' escape from Egypt; it stood for the plan and purpose of God for all the ages. Judgment and salvation, wrath and redemption are brought together in the mystery of one cup, explained by the Messiah in that upper room. Jesus was not speaking of the cup in a purely symbolic manner. He was describing events that would soon occur in His own life. Later that evening in the garden of Gethsemane He cried out to the Lord in anguished prayer, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done" (Luke 22:42). In His humanity, Jesus could wish that this cup of judgment—the one that everyone except Him deserved for breaking of God's covenant—would pass over Him. Yet, as the obedient Son of God, Jesus knew that the cup of blessing could only be poured out for the salvation of many if He would first drink the cup of God's judgment on all humanity. Despite the agony of separation from the Father, our Lord was willing to drink this cup, to bear this judgment, to suffer this horror and death that we might be free and forgiven. No wonder the Apostle Paul calls this "the cup of blessing which we bless." What greater blessing can there be than that which Messiah purchased for us in His death, burial and resurrection? In calling this the cup of blessing as it was known in the Jewish Passover, the Apostle Paul points out the powerful connection between Passover and Holy Communion. The roots of this sacrament are sunk deep in the eternal plan of God, which is unfolded through the pages of Scripture, as well as in the traditions of God's chosen people, the Jews." Blimey that will take me a while to get through, I will read it later, when I have more time
|
|
hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
|
Post by hberry on Jul 14, 2015 14:55:50 GMT -5
Blimey that will take me a while to get through, I will read it later, when I have more time Especially if you are reading it on a phone!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 14, 2015 14:59:04 GMT -5
Blimey that will take me a while to get through, I will read it later, when I have more time Especially if you are reading it on a phone! Yes I am, ha ha. It will take me a while to get through it all, I'll wait till I go to bed.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 16, 2015 1:01:51 GMT -5
My Jewish friends assure me that drinking from a cup is part of a very ancient, pre-Jesus tradition of the Passover meal. And here's an article written by a believing Jew about the symbolism of the Passover cup. "The Passover cup is one of the central symbols of this holiday known as the Feast of Redemption. Yet the original Passover story makes no mention whatsoever of a cup. In fact, the only biblical mention of a cup in connection with Passover is in the New Testament. When Jesus celebrated this feast with His disciples He raised a cup at least twice during the meal to make important statements about Himself (Luke 22:17,20). What is the significance of the cup Jesus uses during His Passover observance? Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures the cup is often used as a symbol of God's judgment. For example, the cup of fury, the cup of judgment, the cup of trembling and the cup of horror and desolation appear throughout the Old Testament. Yet we also find the Psalmist crying out, I will take up the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord" (Psalm 116:13). So the symbol of the cup carries with it pictures of both wrath and redemption, of judgment and blessing. None of these references mentions the Passover. Yet, the themes of judgment and salvation are woven together beautifully in the Passover story. God poured out His judgment on the Egyptians, but spared the Israelites who obeyed Him by placing the blood of a lamb on the doorposts of their homes. Each year Jewish families retell these events through the seder, the ceremonial meal that commemorates Passover. Yet, how the cup became a Passover symbol remains a mystery. We do know that by the time Jesus observed the Passover, drinking a cup during the meal was an official part of the observance. In fact, an ancient rabbinic source, the Mishnah, instructs those celebrating to drink from the cup four times during the Passover seder (Pesahim 10:1). That tradition remains to this day. Each time the cup is filled, it has a different name. Opinions vary as to what certain cups actually symbolize. Most agree that the first cup is the Kiddush, which means sanctification. With this cup, we begin the Passover seder. The second cup is called the cup of plagues. The third cup is referred to as either the cup of redemption or the cup of blessing. The fourth cup is often called hallel which means praise, though some traditions call it the cup of acceptance while still others use it as the cup of Elijah. The latter combine the second cup (plagues) with hallel—because we praise God for the plagues He used to bring us out of Egypt. Jewish tradition says little else about the cups—though we're told they should be filled with red wine to remind us of the blood of the Passover lamb. The New Testament names one of the cups—the cup taken after supper, which is traditionally the third cup. Jesus calls this cup "the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20). The Apostle Paul calls it, "the cup of blessing which we bless," as well as "the cup of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 10:16,21). Both Jesus and Paul draw on something from Jewish tradition to provide insights not previously understood. By calling the cup "the new covenant in my blood," Jesus makes a direct reference to the promise of Jeremiah 31. God had declared that He would make a new covenant because the previous covenant had become "broken" (Jeremiah 31:32). To violate a covenant agreement with God would surely incur His wrath and judgment—a terrible cup! But instead, God promised a new covenant of grace and salvation. Jesus declared that this new covenant would be poured from the cup of salvation in His blood. The cup of redemption stood for more than the Hebrews' escape from Egypt; it stood for the plan and purpose of God for all the ages. Judgment and salvation, wrath and redemption are brought together in the mystery of one cup, explained by the Messiah in that upper room. Jesus was not speaking of the cup in a purely symbolic manner. He was describing events that would soon occur in His own life. Later that evening in the garden of Gethsemane He cried out to the Lord in anguished prayer, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done" (Luke 22:42). In His humanity, Jesus could wish that this cup of judgment—the one that everyone except Him deserved for breaking of God's covenant—would pass over Him. Yet, as the obedient Son of God, Jesus knew that the cup of blessing could only be poured out for the salvation of many if He would first drink the cup of God's judgment on all humanity. Despite the agony of separation from the Father, our Lord was willing to drink this cup, to bear this judgment, to suffer this horror and death that we might be free and forgiven. No wonder the Apostle Paul calls this "the cup of blessing which we bless." What greater blessing can there be than that which Messiah purchased for us in His death, burial and resurrection? In calling this the cup of blessing as it was known in the Jewish Passover, the Apostle Paul points out the powerful connection between Passover and Holy Communion. The roots of this sacrament are sunk deep in the eternal plan of God, which is unfolded through the pages of Scripture, as well as in the traditions of God's chosen people, the Jews." Firstly, that was really interesting. Especially about the Jewish traditions with the cups. Thank you for taking your time to write all that. Regarding the cup of the new testament. I see that as Jesus pouring out his life (living it) and bringing us the way, the truth and the life. It's a new covenant between us and God. And we have to take his life in. Which is drinking from the cup. Once we do this, we then enter into the covenant with God. And if we enter into Gods covenant, we then have to follow Jesus, and take up our cross and deny ourselves which is our flesh and the world because within his life, Jesus suffered, he fought Satan on his own ground, won, and overcame him. And if we drink from the cup, although we will also suffer(denial of the flesh and world) Christ will give us the strength to do so. If we keep our faith, he will help us overcome Satan in our hearts and fill us with the holy spirit of our father. Giving us the strength through Gods grace and mercy, not only to overcome sin within our own hearts, but give us the strength to live his word out. Showing love, mercy, kindness and forgiveness taking whatever is thrown at us and replacing it with love and sharing the gospel, serving God and showing the heart of Christ and our holy father to others, replacing our old man with a new man, which is Christ in the heart. Hoping they will take in the word and have a hope of salvation. We must be doers of the word, not just hearers. It's not just believing, but believing and doing the work that God has given us to do. Which is loving him with all our heart soul mind and strength and our neighbours as ourselves and taking up our cross and denying sin within our hearts remaining humble, thus following Jesus, and sharing the gospel with others. And Christ will give is the strength to do all this, because he has power over all flesh because he has overcome the world!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 16, 2015 10:24:56 GMT -5
I think that should be, without the shedding of blood, there would be no forgivness of sins! Not the cross. The Cross was where Jesus shed His blood for remission of sins. The bread is His broken body and the wine His blood which we remember every time we have the emblems. Where else do you think He shed His blood if not on the Cross? Hematohidrosis in the Garden of Gesthemane? What makes you think he shed his blood on the cross? Death from crucifixion does not result from the loss of blood but most likely from hypovolemic shock coupled with asphyxia. The Cross was where Jesus was deprived of oxygen for remission of sins.or The Cross was where Jesus suffered heart failure for remission of sins.Doesn't have the same ring nor evoke the bloody images.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 12:56:52 GMT -5
Many of us simply believe what is recorded in John 19:34 that when soldiers saw he was dead, they pierced his side from which flowed water and blood.
Don't have to argue the point as it stands on its own. Numerous explanations as to why "water and blood."
Plenty of blood in His crucifixion on the cross for those who read and believe the Bible. Naturally it must be dismissed by and for those who do not.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 16, 2015 15:45:34 GMT -5
Many of us simply believe what is recorded in John 19:34 that when soldiers saw he was dead, they pierced his side from which flowed water and blood.
Don't have to argue the point as it stands on its own. Numerous explanations as to why "water and blood."
Plenty of blood in His crucifixion on the cross for those who read and believe the Bible. Naturally it must be dismissed by and for those who do not. But not a blood sacrifice. Is blood from a dead entity acceptable as a sacrifice? Isn't the point that the blood letting is the cause of death? If your lamb gets killed by an ox-cart you can't bring the dead lamb and say it is a blood offering. Remember, even up to the time of Jesus people believed that blood was alive. That it was life. (Seems like the creator would have know this was wrong.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 16:04:57 GMT -5
Rational, not wanting to argue my point.
How many animals have you personally slaughtered for human consumption? How did you do it? Did you follow the Korean practice of beating a dog to death so the blood would remain in the tissue? Do you know all of that country's beliefs about life, blood, sacrifice? I don't, although I do know a bit.
You see, you fight for every possible way to make what you believe true, even in ths matter regarding blood sacrifice, and the need for a literal understanding of it. Fine, that is what you need to confirm what you believe true.
For me, Yahu'shuah died on the cross, in doing so He made sacrifice for me through HIS blood shed there, no mater how it left His earthly body.
Am I trying to convince you what to believe as you attempt to do me? Not at all. Nor can I ever hope to explain to anyone else all that I believe, perceive about this subject, nor all the reasons I believe it, nor how to do so in any manner that makes sense to you.
Smile, sure, now and then I try, but it just doesn't work!
Always, all the best to you, my friend.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jul 16, 2015 17:03:01 GMT -5
Rational, not wanting to argue my point.
How many animals have you personally slaughtered for human consumption? How did you do it? Did you follow the Korean practice of beating a dog to death so the blood would remain in the tissue? Do you know all of that country's beliefs about life, blood, sacrifice? I don't, although I do know a bit.
You see, you fight for every possible way to make what you believe true, even in ths matter regarding blood sacrifice, and the need for a literal understanding of it. Fine, that is what you need to confirm what you believe true.
For me, Yahu'shuah died on the cross, in doing so He made sacrifice for me through HIS blood shed there, no mater how it left His earthly body.
Am I trying to convince you what to believe as you attempt to do me? Not at all. Nor can I ever hope to explain to anyone else all that I believe, perceive about this subject, nor all the reasons I believe it, nor how to do so in any manner that makes sense to you.
Smile, sure, now and then I try, but it just doesn't work!
Always, all the best to you, my friend. Dennis, you yourself gave the John 19:32 verse English Standard Version (ESV)
32 "So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35 He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe.
So, Jesus was already dead when the soldier pierced his side and the blood & water came out.
I understand that you don't want or need any literal understanding of the subject, -yet you & others do want to believe that indeed Jesus made sacrifice through HIS blood shed there, - you seem to think that the rest of us shouldn't discuss the particulars.
Of course we know why the soldiers "broke the legs" of those on crosses. It further hindered the person's ability to raise themselves a bit in order to breathe so they died quicker.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 17:31:59 GMT -5
In no way am I denying He had died by then. Are you denying h His blood poured out then? Dispute away!
You have no belief in Yahu'shuah. Fine! I DO!
He died in my place! If anyone cannot see bloodshed in that, it certainly isn't my place to try to convince them otherwise, and certainly not people I consider friends! Why not just let me (and others) believe what we believe as I do you guys? What difference is it going to make? I know the relationship I have with my God, and why I have it. No, none so far not believing in Him have even come close to being able to say they once believed as I believe. No, Not even close!
Do you think I condemn you for not believing as I? Absolutely not! Only words expressed which are true will condemn in the "last day."
That is the teaching of Yahu'shuah and I believe it. He went to the cross loving all in opposition to Him, His beliefs, and teachings. That was for humanity of all time, and others followed Him because of their acceptance and love for their God. Recanting would have been easy. Yeah, many were crucified not believing, but merely recanting, would that have saved them? Believers die for Him, believing in a better resurrection!
Smile! That's all, folks, I'm run down!
|
|
|
Post by christiansburg on Jul 16, 2015 18:10:07 GMT -5
Which is the correct meaning of: "...I say unto you, this day you shall be with me in paradise OR "...I say unto you this day, you shall be with me in paradise. Many people take it as meaning the former but I have read that it is more likely the latter because there were no punctuations used in Hebrew writings. I am not sure the controversy over this has yet been settled. Either way we are caused to believe there is paradise beyond this life. I suppose you can pick and choose some verses to support it either way also.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 18:49:36 GMT -5
Which is the correct meaning of: "...I say unto you, this day you shall be with me in paradise OR "...I say unto you this day, you shall be with me in paradise. Many people take it as meaning the former but I have read that it is more likely the latter because there were no punctuations used in Hebrew writings. I am not sure the controversy over this has yet been settled. Either way we are caused to believe there is paradise beyond this life. I suppose you can pick and choose some verses to support it either way also. Friend, scholastically, I find a Greek phrase repeated often in Luke. Translated to English it is this: "Verily verily I say unto you..."
Since nowhere else is "today" part of that translation, I would hold it is part of a separate thought in this quotation.
Some do believe that Christ did not come into His kingdom until after His resurrection, going immediately into Hades, preaching to those there.
About that thought/concept all I have to go by is this immediacy of reference to what was about to occur. Others might have a much greater understandim and be willing th share it here...?
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 17, 2015 0:39:54 GMT -5
Rational, not wanting to argue my point.
How many animals have you personally slaughtered for human consumption? How did you do it? I grew up in the country so a fair number. For calves it was usually with an air powered captive bolt stun gun. For pigs close range .22 rifle. For larger cattle it was a penetrating bolt stun gun. For wild game (deer), since most of the hunting was in brush, I liked the 'clearing' power of a .35 Remington. I helped some with the butchering of the domestic animals but most was left to the professionals. I wished I had learned more from them! Since there was not always someone else nearby the field dressing of the deer was usually the task of the hunter. My grandfather showed me how to dress the animal the first time and then I was on my own.No, I live in the US and have hunted only in the US. The few times dog was on the menu I found it to be stringy and with a strong taste I did not care for. I never bothered to learn or practice the Korean customs for slaughtering, butchering, and cooking dog.Having been raised in the US and only having visited Korea a dozen times or so, No, I do not know all of their customs. But knowing a little about their native beliefs I am guessing any reference to a blood sacrifice was imported by christians. Blood sacrifice is not a major point for Buddhists and the majority of the rest of the people don't follow a formal religion.OK. If I posted something that was not true why not ask me about it directly? I am not fighting to make what I believe true I am looking at the available data and using that to form my beliefs. The blunt question is whether you think road kill would be acceptable as a blood sacrifice according to the rules in the OT?This has little to do with what I believe but more to do with determining the meaning of a blood sacrifice. I don't recall any place in the bible that called for a long and protracted death, primarily due to a lack of oxygen, as a procedure for a blood sacrifice. OK. What makes you think I am trying to convince you or that I even care what you believe? I simply posted what was recorded and questioned whether if the sacrificial entity did not die from exsanguination could it be considered a blood sacrifice.Nope.Well, as I am sure you know @dennisj, beliefs do not depend on logical or material support. Like so many other beliefs, if you forgo reason it can make sense. I appreciate the effort. But I must admit, if the paragraph regarding Korea was an attempt at an explanation it went over my head!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 1:22:23 GMT -5
Dmmichgood, you eat plants? Do you know the main difference between a plant and animal is that an animal can move out of harms way (or into it) but a plant cannot? We now know plants have a rudimentary reasoning capability. Plants can calculate. Plants recognize kin. Plants can warn other plants. In fact we know that one plant, which sharply closes its leafs when touched, quickly adapted to human touch when it was obvious humans weren't harming it. So... if you DO eat vegetables... how could you?
What we need to do is simply work out our dietary needs in terms of chemistry, ie carbon, phosphorus, copper etc.. and consume these chemicals direct, instead of through living, innocent creatures.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 17, 2015 1:41:00 GMT -5
Dmmichgood, you eat plants? Do you know the main difference between a plant and animal is that an animal can move out of harms way (or into it) but a plant cannot? We now know plants have a rudimentary reasoning capability. Plants can calculate. Plants recognize kin. Plants can warn other plants. In fact we know that one plant, which sharply closes its leafs when touched, quickly adapted to human touch when it was obvious humans weren't harming it. So... if you DO eat vegetables... how could you?
What we need to do is simply work out our dietary needs in terms of chemistry, ie carbon, phosphorus, copper etc.. and consume these chemicals direct, instead of through living, innocent creatures. Do you have any references to share?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 2:12:24 GMT -5
References? I just Googled plant intelligence dropped and got a lot...Mimosa pudica, also called the “sensitive plant,” is that rare plant species with a behavior so speedy and visible that animals can observe it; the Venus flytrap is another. When the fernlike leaves of the mimosa are touched, they instantly fold up, presumably to frighten insects. The mimosa also collapses its leaves when the plant is dropped or jostled. Gagliano potted fifty-six mimosa plants and rigged a system to drop them from a height of fifteen centimetres every five seconds. Each “training session” involved sixty drops. She reported that some of the mimosas started to reopen their leaves after just four, five, or six drops, as if they had concluded that the stimulus could be safely ignored. “By the end, they were completely open,” Gagliano said to the audience. “They couldn’t care less anymore... Even after twenty-eight days, the lesson had not been forgotten. She reminded her colleagues that, in similar experiments with bees, the insects forgot what they had learned after just forty-eight hours. Gagliano concluded by suggesting that “brains and neurons are a sophisticated solution but not a necessary requirement for learning,” and that there is “some unifying mechanism across living systems that can process information and learn.” www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-intelligent-plant
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 17, 2015 3:59:33 GMT -5
Regarding the cup of the new testament. I see that as Jesus pouring out his life (living it) and bringing us the way, the truth and the life. It's a new covenant between us and God. And we have to take his life in. Which is drinking from the cup. Once we do this, we then enter into the covenant with God. And if we enter into Gods covenant, we then have to follow Jesus, and take up our cross and deny ourselves which is our flesh and the world because within his life, Jesus suffered, he fought Satan on his own ground, won, and overcame him. And if we drink from the cup, although we will also suffer(denial of the flesh and world) Christ will give us the strength to do so. ....I'm getting the impression that you don't like what happened on the cross Everything in the Bible before it points to it....and everything in the Bible after it points back to it. It's well....kind of central. Everything in the bible before and after points to the coming and the life of Jesus, not just the crucifixion. And yes you're right, I didn't like what happened on the cross, it was barbaric
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 4:57:02 GMT -5
Regarding the cup of the new testament. I see that as Jesus pouring out his life (living it) and bringing us the way, the truth and the life. It's a new covenant between us and God. And we have to take his life in. Which is drinking from the cup. Once we do this, we then enter into the covenant with God. And if we enter into Gods covenant, we then have to follow Jesus, and take up our cross and deny ourselves which is our flesh and the world because within his life, Jesus suffered, he fought Satan on his own ground, won, and overcame him. And if we drink from the cup, although we will also suffer(denial of the flesh and world) Christ will give us the strength to do so. ....I'm getting the impression that you don't like what happened on the cross Everything in the Bible before it points to it....and everything in the Bible after it points back to it. It's well....kind of central. why would anyone like what happened on the cross? God didn't like it so why should we?
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 17, 2015 6:12:12 GMT -5
Because the cross is the power of God to those who are saved. 1 Cor 1:18 "Foolishness to those who perish but the power of God to those who are saved. " So what about your cross that you have to bare, do you have to be literally crucified, to follow Jesus? And was Paul literally crucified with Christ? Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. And what does this mean Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Galatians 5 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Above Paul is talking about death to self, which is denial of the flesh and the world, and becoming alive to God through Christ. If it was so holy to crucify Jesus. Why would Paul have said this? But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. And Peter, also said it was wrong, and so did Jesus himself in John 7 and 8! Acts 3 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Peter in acts 3 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 1 Thessalonians 2 For ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; There was nothing holy about the murder of Jesus. It was done at the hands of Satan. And its all too easy to use the crucifixion as a covering for all sins, and taking the emphasis off the fact that we have to take up our own cross and deny ourselves also and follow him. And endure to the end to be saved!
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Jul 17, 2015 6:56:53 GMT -5
Ratz When the crown of thorns were placed on the head of Jesus he would have begun to bleed. When his hands were pierced with nails and his feet more blood would have been shed. Carrying the cross on his back possibly caused abrasions and cuts. My point is I doubt no blood was shed prior to the piercing in his side.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jul 17, 2015 7:28:44 GMT -5
The Cross is the power of God to those who are saved which is talking about Jesus death on the Cross. You quoted verses that show how important the Cross is. If Jesus did not die on the Cross those verses would not be there. They show how central Jesus death on the Cross is for us. We don't die on the Cross, but Jesus did. Mary, my heart tells me that to crucify Jesus was a sin before God. Seeing as God said thou shalt not kill. And its even worse to say that all our sins are covered, past present and future because of his crucifixion. Our sins are covered by his resurrection within our hearts! And we have to put our hand to it. We have to do the works of God, once we drink from the cup and we have to let Christ into our hearts and show the works of God outwardly by following Jesus. By taking up our cross, denying ourselves and following Jesus. Enduring, which is suffering to the end if our lives. Denying flesh and the world is to suffer! To turn away from worldly lusts. And the sins of our hearts. It says we have to follow Jesus, so that means that he also took up his cross and denied himself to please God! So must we. It isn't just believing, is doing! It's not going to church and then living our life because Jesus did it all. It's denial daily of our flesh. It's a continual fight, it's dying daily. And because Jesus overcame, once he's resurrected within our hearts he can help is overcome thus saving us from Satan and sin! This flesh is the dust that Satan crawls through. It's what he feeds on, the wickedness within our hearts. And its what has to go. And if we love God more than our own lives, then we will let Christ into our hearts and let Gods holy spirit do his work and put our flesh to death and the things of this world will mean nothing to us, because our love for God is stronger! Mary you might think I'm foolish and perishing and not saved for not believing that the be all and end all is the crucifixion. But I know that I feel Gods spirit in my heart, I feel him rise up in my heart when I have to speak out, I feel him move me to where I'm needed and I hear him condemn me when I've sinned. And like a flash of light he opens my understanding with revelation, which is a gift and a blessing. I see God everywhere and in everything that has been made by his hands. And I feel his love within my heart, which overpowers all the hardness and wickedness that is in my flesh. And makes me a better person. Alive with Christ a new me. And I love God with all my heart. No matter how lost or unsaved people here think others are. Remember it was the good and bad, the people by the wayside, the prostitute's and tax collectors. And people that others see as unsaved, they are the ones that were going in before the people thinking they were saved! So we can never judge. Never look down on anyone and never ever call people unsaved. Because we don't know the mind of God. And one day, they could be higher in heaven than we are. That is if by the grace of God we get in!
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 17, 2015 11:57:10 GMT -5
As I've said before, blood sacrifice is ancient and it's necessar,y in man's belief anyway, that it somehow appeases an unpredictable, wrathful God or Gods. We have been doing this for a very long time and Jesus was just one of many that have been sacrificed to make things better for others. In his case it was to forgive sins. There is really no logic to it if you really look at it. Especially if you believe in the trinity doctrine. He is God sacrificed to God/himself to save people from the wrath of God/himself. It makes no sense because God could have just chosen to forgive without a blood sacrifice. So you know that it's the belief that a blood sacrifice is necessary to appease God that was still a dominant belief in early Christians. It is very pagan in origin. When Jesus got crucified by the Romans for treason, it was a good spin by those left behind because he failed to free the Jewish people from Roman captivity so in order to still make him important, they just rewrote the story to look like he didn't fail. Maryhig's idea about it being his life that was the important part and not the crucifixion makes more sense unless you believe blood must be shed to save souls.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 17:53:41 GMT -5
Because the cross is the power of God to those who are saved. 1 Cor 1:18 "Foolishness to those who perish but the power of God to those who are saved. " the cross that Jesus hung on is not the power of God to those who are saved, how can wood be the power of God? across the will of nature is the power of God to those who are saved
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 18:43:47 GMT -5
Some think of the cross as the instrument of death and others think of it as a trinket to wear around your neck. But Jesus said WE must all bear the cross.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 19:09:38 GMT -5
Not sure if there IS a Plan B with our lives. We either love God and allow Him to work in our lives, or we don't.
|
|