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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 19:20:11 GMT -5
Have you ever seen graphs of Christian church attendance? Those going back to the 1800's are particularly instructive. The decline has been gradual and persistent.
Some people hold that if the churches "modernize" they won't decline. If churches are "inclusive" or "transparent" etc. they might actually grow. I have noticed this strand of thought on the TMB as well.
But the graph for the Roman Catholic Church is especially interesting. The ups and downs of the church, to the secular eye, have not budged the overall downward trend. Try to find Vatican II or CSA in that graph and you won't.
Vatican II was a real game changer for the RCC. It was about modernizing an essentialy Medieval church. Many thought it would stop the rot, but it didn't. Some blamed Vatican II for a continual decline in numbers but that isn't correct either.
The overall church figure is about one percent decline per year. Doesn't sound much but over a generation about a quarter of the church vanishes (and that includes my church as well.)
In Australia one of the most "progessive" churches, the Uniting Church (an algamation of various old denominations)has suffered a two percent loss. That's double the rate of more traditional churches.
Some churches have grown or stabilized by offering people things not related to Christianity. In a sense this is just fudging the figures.
Will the decline end? I doubt it.
Back in Paul's time some thought the Messiah would come again to his generation. He warned them that He would not come until there was a "falling away." John in Revelations said the church would fall "in a single day." Historically the fall we see is very fast. Jesus said much the same. The sign He gave for this was the Jews returning to Israel when the Gentiles time was "fulfilled." And Jesus asked the question - would he find faith in the earth when He did return.
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Post by withlove on Jul 7, 2015 19:49:18 GMT -5
Have you ever seen graphs of Christian church attendance? Those going back to the 1800's are particularly instructive. The decline has been gradual and persistent.
Some people hold that if the churches "modernize" they won't decline. If churches are "inclusive" or "transparent" etc. they might actually grow. I have noticed this strand of thought on the TMB as well.
But the graph for the Roman Catholic Church is especially interesting. The ups and downs of the church, to the secular eye, have not budged the overall downward trend. Try to find Vatican II or CSA in that graph and you won't.
Vatican II was a real game changer for the RCC. It was about modernizing an essentialy Medieval church. Many thought it would stop the rot, but it didn't. Some blamed Vatican II for a continual decline in numbers but that isn't correct either.
The overall church figure is about one percent decline per year. Doesn't sound much but over a generation about a quarter of the church vanishes (and that includes my church as well.)
In Australia one of the most "progessive" churches, the Uniting Church (an algamation of various old denominations)has suffered a two percent loss. That's double the rate of more traditional churches.
Some churches have grown or stabilized by offering people things not related to Christianity. In a sense this is just fudging the figures.
Will the decline end? I doubt it.
Back in Paul's time some thought the Messiah would come again to his generation. He warned them that He would not come until there was a "falling away." John in Revelations said the church would fall "in a single day." Historically the fall we see is very fast. Jesus said much the same. The sign He gave for this was the Jews returning to Israel when the Gentiles time was "fulfilled." And Jesus asked the question - would he find faith in the earth when He did return. Thanks, Bert- this is an interesting post. I agree that decline in Christianity is probably across the board and inevitable, and Jesus told us to expect it. The reasons for the church to be transparent should be...moral ones, maybe is the right term. Even if the workers thought that would cause them to lose members. In order for the exclusive doctrine to change, people need to believe differently, so that isn't even a possible choice until belief change. It would be nice to read the minds of the overseers on that topic--do any believe that there are other churches on the right path? If they genuinely don't, then they are preaching what is right in their minds on that point, which is hard to condemn. If the changes don't work, like in your example, that is another bridge to cross, or maybe it can be prevented somewhat by learning from other churches' mistakes. It shouldn't be an excuse to not try to be more accountable and transparent, etc. Just my thoughts.
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Post by Greg on Jul 7, 2015 20:08:52 GMT -5
I heard one preacher say the mega-churches are feeding the goats and neglecting the sheep.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 20:36:30 GMT -5
Bert, old mate, do agree with what you say. Interesting that you mentioned the Uniting Church, and as you know I had contact with them as a Treasurer. A number that I know left because of ordination of homosexuals. So the age old problem of human behaviour has an influence.
I also think the advance of science has had an effect. Improved technology does change things. The result can be both good and bad for humans.
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Post by learning on Jul 7, 2015 20:49:45 GMT -5
Have you ever seen graphs of Christian church attendance? Those going back to the 1800's are particularly instructive. The decline has been gradual and persistent.
Some people hold that if the churches "modernize" they won't decline. If churches are "inclusive" or "transparent" etc. they might actually grow. I have noticed this strand of thought on the TMB as well.
But the graph for the Roman Catholic Church is especially interesting. The ups and downs of the church, to the secular eye, have not budged the overall downward trend. Try to find Vatican II or CSA in that graph and you won't.
Vatican II was a real game changer for the RCC. It was about modernizing an essentialy Medieval church. Many thought it would stop the rot, but it didn't. Some blamed Vatican II for a continual decline in numbers but that isn't correct either.
The overall church figure is about one percent decline per year. Doesn't sound much but over a generation about a quarter of the church vanishes (and that includes my church as well.)
In Australia one of the most "progessive" churches, the Uniting Church (an algamation of various old denominations)has suffered a two percent loss. That's double the rate of more traditional churches.
Some churches have grown or stabilized by offering people things not related to Christianity. In a sense this is just fudging the figures.
Will the decline end? I doubt it.
Back in Paul's time some thought the Messiah would come again to his generation. He warned them that He would not come until there was a "falling away." John in Revelations said the church would fall "in a single day." Historically the fall we see is very fast. Jesus said much the same. The sign He gave for this was the Jews returning to Israel when the Gentiles time was "fulfilled." And Jesus asked the question - would he find faith in the earth when He did return. I too find this topic on my thoughts. I agree that the decline will probably not end until or if there is some global trauma that shocks and drives people back towards faith based beliefs. While I don't broadly agree with his letter, the author of the letter in the "LL" post recently referenced something like an 'age of increasing acceptance' (contrary to rather static beliefs inherent to some faith based beliefs), which is clearly true in America, anyway. I think he was on to something there as it pertains to your post here. I heard recently that residents of France may live their whole life without having been taught about God. It just isn't a part of their culture. I don't want to be an alarmist, but at the rate America is going, people with traditional Christian beliefs will soon be nothing more than bigots and one could argue that our future with respect to perception and authority of a Godhead won't be that much different than France's is currently.
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