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Post by matisse on Aug 1, 2015 19:52:44 GMT -5
Yes, because he is the ONLY few people who sees it so clearly... Another one is Nightshift.
The Living Witness Doctrine is true. It might not be exclusively given to the workers, but it's none-the-less true. A person has to hear the gospel to be saved. If you believe in the bible, it's not a matter of whether the LWD is true or not. The question is "Can a person be saved apart from the workers?" In the fellowship there, some think you can be saved apart form a worker, others think you can't. Even workers have different opinions on this. To give my 2 cents worth on the original post by Bert: there have clearly been numerous movements working apart from Orthodoxy since the time of Christ. There have always been small groups of people meeting in homes, preaching freely, claiming to have 'the only way' and attempting to follow the biblical pattern of the Church. This did not begin in the late 1800s. This 'faith' has been around since the time of Christ.
If anyone is interested, purchase a copy of MARTYR'S MIRROR or THE BLOODY THEATRE, an old Anabaptist book. It documents martyrdom and so-called heretics since the time of Christ in great detail. Is there a continuation from group to group. Probably.
This fellowship (2x2) is a continuation of the New Testament, whether it can be proved or not. I don't think the fellowship is into proving anything to anyone. It's faith-based. However, if one wants proof, educate yourself by reading true, historical books such as MARTYR'S MIRROR. Here's a URL to the actual book, which you can read online. It goes from CENTURY TO CENTURY showing that a remnant has always existed. homecomers.org/mirror/
I guess see it as an attempt at self-justification and as an attempt to "escape" from being at all related to the Roman Catholic Church!
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Post by matisse on Aug 1, 2015 20:05:48 GMT -5
I guess see it as an attempt at self-justification and as an attempt to "escape" from being at all related to the Roman Catholic Church! True believers of Christ LEFT and FLED the church of Rome in the 3rd century... RCC mixing Church and State of Rome, Pagans rituals with the Old and New teaching of Jesus in ONE bag. [snip]My view is more like this: (This is not an endorsement of this particular image, just an example that is closer to the way I see things.)
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Post by matisse on Aug 1, 2015 20:23:05 GMT -5
Jesus Christ KNEW about your view Matisse AND of all types of religions were and ARE out there.... So, He said this, "I am the Way, the Truth and Life, no MAN comes unto the Father but through me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye KNOW Him, and have seen Him." (John 14:6)
Jesus said, "Let NOT your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also IN me." John 14:1
Paul wrote in Philippians. 4:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Too bad he didn't get around to saying that sooner....look at the chart I posted and think of how many people across cultures and across time would have no chance based on your model! Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 21:11:26 GMT -5
The Hebrews God/Elohim created ALL things, beings, homo Sapiens, animals, fish, birds, etc.. therefore The Eternal Elohim/God of the Hebrews are the Oldest than all of the gods, which men have come up with through the centuries. You do know that story originated in the Sumerian religion not with the Hebrew people? So it's more likely Anu is the original if you base it on that. Or, did the Sumerians and the Hebrews BOTH get it from somewhere else? Perhaps, in the early days of humanity, there was one religion, based upon truth, and this truth eventually was warped into myths, sects, etc. I think it's pretty difficult to simply say "that story originated in the Sumerian religion."
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2015 22:27:58 GMT -5
You do know that story originated in the Sumerian religion not with the Hebrew people? So it's more likely Anu is the original if you base it on that. Or, did the Sumerians and the Hebrews BOTH get it from somewhere else? Perhaps, in the early days of humanity, there was one religion, based upon truth, and this truth eventually was warped into myths, sects, etc. I think it's pretty difficult to simply say "that story originated in the Sumerian religion." Seeing as though they were the first settled civilization that recorded pretty much everything, created laws etc. it is a very good possibility that it originated with them, at least that particular myth. There are, of course, many older myths and creation stories world wide. All of humanity seems to have their own creation story.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 1, 2015 22:33:44 GMT -5
What hat's conclusion is Very Good....Interestingly, in this book there is a picture of all the Faith Mission pilgrims as of 1892, standing in four rows like a worker picture, and at their feet is a banner that says "holiness to the Lord". The Holiness Movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are not sanctified at that point; you are not yet holy. Some denominations within the Holiness Movement speak of a second rebirth when you are sanctified, but I believe that with the friends you spend your life working toward being sanctified. This idea was quite common in Methodist circles of the late 19th century. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as a center of the Holiness Movement. Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, but who was actually an Anglican, was the first to spread the Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later his book titled "Christian Perfection". "Christian Perfection" is the same idea as Holiness, that you are "born again" once but then become perfected in Christ over time. I have read Wesley's book, but his distinction between perfected Christians who don't sin, but do make mistakes, versus unperfected Christians who aren't quite there yet, is quite a fine line if you ask me. But the essential idea of spiritual progress throughout life is a compelling one, all the same. So, this is from wiki - It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers. Wesley was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality rooted in pietism. At one point in the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast off the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experience led Wesley to believe that the Moravians possessed an inner strength which he lacked.[8] The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influenced Wesley's theology of Methodism.[9] And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravian church, I'll quote wiki, "is reputed to have received the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensian Church, but the historicity of this is disputed." I personally doubt that, but most ideas in Christianity, like that of Holiness, have very deep roots. Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Paul the apostle-> Vaudois/Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's journal and b) learned more on the socio-historical background that informed the decision making of Irvine and the other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movements, as well as the Holiness doctrine. Before that I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Now I see Irvine, Long and the other first workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement that was going on in Ireland and Scotland in the late 19th century, one which culminated in schism because the main denominations would not accept the Holiness doctrine. The f&w were not the only ones going through this transformation. Here is a list of other Holiness denominations in the UK and America that began during or around that time. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make Irvine the first leader/ overseer/ head worker of the movement. Founder? I've just never liked that word in connection with the f&w movement. Nathan's selection of posts in the early part of this thread shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, IMO. Now, for Nathan's benefit, Holiness began with John Wesley's work and preaching on Christian Perfection, and Wesley's ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area by the Moravian church which is a movement that was influenced by the Waldensians/ Vaudois. To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909 ~~ Edward Cooney (1898 2x2 worker) said, "We did NOT start this Jesus Way... It was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men." ~~ Edward Cooney: There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart Gods spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus. (Reprinted from Edward Cooney's Testimony reprinted in Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960, by Patricia Roberts, Pages 43-45) ~~ Edward Cooney: Undoubtedly God called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning; and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people for God's name was William Irvine who, at the time of his being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is the Rock alone on which Jesus Christ would build his church, and that the gates of Hades should not prevail against it. (Letter by Edward Cooney to My dear Sister dated May, 1930 Reprinted from: Selected Letters, Hymns, and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867- 1960 by Patricia Roberts) ~~ Ed Cooney stated in his letter to Alice Flett: "I traveled for my father's business and preached inside and outside, as occasion offered, with some persecution. Whilst doing so, I met William Irvine through whom George Walker, Jack Carroll, William Carroll, Willie Gill and a number of the present leaders professed, including James Jardine. William Irvine and I were drawn together as brothers in Christ, each of us claiming liberty to follow Jesus as we received progressive light from God by the Spirit. [/quote I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly, but any person who truly believes that the 2x2 church is the one and only HISTORICALY, directly connected church from the apostles onward , would be foolish if they were not a member of that particular church, and would surely make it their business to do anything to be accepted by the workers , so they could be a part of this group. - the 2x2's. Alvin
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Aug 2, 2015 4:13:46 GMT -5
JD.. Jesus claimed he is equal with God... and Heavenly Father is His Father.... So that make Jesus What? God the Son, and the Son of God or Both?
What is Trinity? One? two? or three beings?
The term Trinity and God the Son terminologies came from the 2nd century apostles. The Books in the New Testament were included only the 4 gospels, many of the epistles from the 1st century! apostles. The 2nd century apostles writings, belief and teaching were NOT included in the New Testament Bible. The terminologies "Trinity and God the Son" came from the 2nd century apostles, and that's why it wasn't used in the New Testament because the second part of the Bible which ended in 1st century apostles.
So the terms "Trinity" or "God the Son" are not in OUR bible. The bible that the F&W use and believe. Nor is the word "Bible". The term Trinity was developed to represent a clear concept in the Bible. Jesus is referred to as God in many places in the Bible. He accepts worship, honour and praise. If He wasn't God he would be committing blasphemy to accept worship and praise that was only due to God. The term "God the Son" is simply a way of explaining that the one God is wholly represented in three person - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I think if you asked most workers whether Jesus, the Son of God, was God, they would say definitely No. Some would answer in the affirmative. I've never met a Christian outside of the 2x2 church who would answer "No" to this question. It comes down to how key Christian concepts such as who God is, how we are saved, the grace of God, what happened on the cross, what does it mean to be justified etc are taught. In my experience, they were not taught well at all. It doesn't mean that this is the only church that these things are not taught well - there's quite a mix of churches out there! But you generally find that Christians who leave the 2x2 church settle into a church where the Bible is taught very clearly.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 2, 2015 8:26:09 GMT -5
Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.
Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him
Luke 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Revelation 4:8-9 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME." And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,
Understanding that only God is to be worshiped, it is interesting , that Jesus was WORSHIPPED ,even as a baby. Who is John speaking about that is being worshiped in Revelations, "who WAS, and who IS and who is to come?" Alvin
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 2, 2015 9:44:13 GMT -5
Yes, because he is the ONLY few people who sees it so clearly... Another one is Nightshift.
Nate, a person can know God and turn to him by reading the Bible. They can also hear it preached. The words that give life are God's words. There have clearly been faithful people since the day of Christ who have taught the Bible clearly and faithfully. There are today - but they are not necessarily in the 2x2 church. If the ministers of the 2x2 church taught the Bible clearly and faithfully they would be clear about who Jesus is and they would not teach that it is only possible to have a relationship with Jesus through them. It has been such a joy for hubby and I to hear clear teaching from the bible, verse by verse. We didn't realize how hungry we were for such teaching until we heard it for the first time. For us, such teaching has changed us from the inside out and we love being renewed through the preaching of the Word. For those who feel that way about the fellowship, that's fine; I'm just speaking to my own spiritual needs that related to Jesus.
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Post by jondough on Aug 2, 2015 10:36:35 GMT -5
So the terms "Trinity" or "God the Son" are not in OUR bible. The bible that the F&W use and believe. Nor is the word "Bible". The term Trinity was developed to represent a clear concept in the Bible. Jesus is referred to as God in many places in the Bible. He accepts worship, honour and praise. If He wasn't God he would be committing blasphemy to accept worship and praise that was only due to God. The term "God the Son" is simply a way of explaining that the one God is wholly represented in three person - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I think if you asked most workers whether Jesus, the Son of God, was God, they would say definitely No. Some would answer in the affirmative. I've never met a Christian outside of the 2x2 church who would answer "No" to this question. It comes down to how key Christian concepts such as who God is, how we are saved, the grace of God, what happened on the cross, what does it mean to be justified etc are taught. In my experience, they were not taught well at all. It doesn't mean that this is the only church that these things are not taught well - there's quite a mix of churches out there! But you generally find that Christians who leave the 2x2 church settle into a church where the Bible is taught very clearly. I was wondering where you were . Like I said earlier, the more I understand the Trinity Doctrine, the more I really think the difference between the F&W belief is mainly terminology. They obviously believe in the Father, Son, and HP. They believe that the 3 are one in the same way my wife came together and became one. We are now Mr and Mrs Dough . We are united. We read in the bible that we are made one through God. I believe the only difference in belief are two things; 1. The F&W believe that the word God refers to our Heavenly Father only. 2. The F&W believe that our Heavenly Father is head over it all. Jesus in perfect subjection to his Father - not equal. The HS the same. Not a whole lot of difference, and I really think its not a deal breaker for anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 10:31:08 GMT -5
Or, did the Sumerians and the Hebrews BOTH get it from somewhere else? Perhaps, in the early days of humanity, there was one religion, based upon truth, and this truth eventually was warped into myths, sects, etc. I think it's pretty difficult to simply say "that story originated in the Sumerian religion." Seeing as though they were the first settled civilization that recorded pretty much everything, created laws etc. it is a very good possibility that it originated with them, at least that particular myth. There are, of course, many older myths and creation stories world wide. All of humanity seems to have their own creation story. Many of the creation stories are unique; many are very similar. The similarities may not be from copying one another, but perhaps the similarities are because they stem from a common truth.
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Post by snow on Aug 3, 2015 11:23:03 GMT -5
Seeing as though they were the first settled civilization that recorded pretty much everything, created laws etc. it is a very good possibility that it originated with them, at least that particular myth. There are, of course, many older myths and creation stories world wide. All of humanity seems to have their own creation story. Many of the creation stories are unique; many are very similar. The similarities may not be from copying one another, but perhaps the similarities are because they stem from a common truth.
Maybe. However, the challenge would be determining which ones stem from a 'common truth'?
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Post by rational on Aug 3, 2015 12:06:41 GMT -5
Many of the creation stories are unique; many are very similar. The similarities may not be from copying one another, but perhaps the similarities are because they stem from a common truth.
Does beg the question of who the observer was and why there would be multiple versions if it was from a single source.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 15:32:53 GMT -5
Many of the creation stories are unique; many are very similar. The similarities may not be from copying one another, but perhaps the similarities are because they stem from a common truth.
Maybe. However, the challenge would be determining which ones stem from a 'common truth'? I agree. And I think that the answer is lost in antiquity.
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Post by rational on Aug 3, 2015 16:09:32 GMT -5
Maybe. However, the challenge would be determining which ones stem from a 'common truth'? I agree. And I think that the answer is lost in antiquity. Obviously it is the story that can be verified by available data. Maybe someday a story will come to light that does fit the facts. Oh wait, there is one!
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