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Post by rational on Jul 5, 2015 14:26:04 GMT -5
As far as children who were disobedient in the OT, parents were supposed to stone them. That's pretty drastic I think. Hmmm. After being in a car for 3+ hours with a 3 year old who didn't want to be there... Drastic is a word that could have flexible meanings.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2015 14:42:16 GMT -5
As far as children who were disobedient in the OT, parents were supposed to stone them. That's pretty drastic I think. Hmmm. After being in a car for 3+ hours with a 3 year old who didn't want to be there... Drastic is a word that could have flexible meanings. Been there. However, I must say 'stoning them' never even crossed my mind. The God of the OT seems to have punishments for people that are not very equal to the offence imo.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 18:13:44 GMT -5
Roselyn, I think what Virgo is attempting to convey is that domestic violence is NOT a mark of Christ, therefor, your upbringing which included domestic violence could not be classified as a "strict professing" upbringing because "strict professing" would have included nothing that was not of Christ. thank you appreciate that
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 20:22:49 GMT -5
It was asked here what do we do with cases of domestic violence. Firstly, "domestic violence" wasn't defined. Secondly, it is the duty of any person in the church to attend to personal issues they might have with someone deemed to be offending. Ok Bert, define Domestic Violence. You have indicated what you don't see as domestic violence below : "The second one is the definition of 'domestic violence', some feminists suggest this could even be a man yelling at a woman. Some here might think it's denying children the things most other children enjoy." So please define what you see as domestic violence.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 20:37:26 GMT -5
Roselyn, I think what Virgo is attempting to convey is that domestic violence is NOT a mark of Christ, therefor, your upbringing which included domestic violence could not be classified as a "strict professing" upbringing because "strict professing" would have included nothing that was not of Christ. Except that isn't correct. A "strict professing" upbringing and a "mark of Christ" upbringing aren't the same thing. You may well argue that they should be the same thing. But in practice they're not. The Bible even tells us of the perfection that is in Christ, and that we can't attain perfection. And further it argues for constant self-examination and re-evaluation of what we do and why we do it. What I'm saying is that domestic violence is not a mark of Christ, but in addition to that, everything else that we do is marred by human imperfection and that certainly includes a "strict professing" upbringing. The marks of Christ are not a form or recipe to adhere to, but rather a positive expression of love within an imperfect world, an imperfect church, and a sinful life. A lot of it is just what we make of it as we go along. Anyway, I digress. The main point is that much more can be done to prevent and deal with abuse in the context of a Christian community, and in the context of a "strict professing" upbringing, than traditionally has been done. So a "mark of Christ" would be to do those things. Thanks again Whathat ! Some people don't seem to realise that men who abuse their wives are able to put on a "good front" to others, people would never has suspected what was really happening in my family because outwardly it looked wonderful ! "Do as I say, not as I do " are the words that come to mind. So again I will say I had a "strict professing upbringing". Virgo would you like a list of things that I was not allowed to do growing up ? No denim skirts, not allowed to get my hair cut/trimmed at all, no school formals, no movies, no playing sport, no swimming on Sunday .....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 22:59:03 GMT -5
Except that isn't correct. A "strict professing" upbringing and a "mark of Christ" upbringing aren't the same thing. You may well argue that they should be the same thing. But in practice they're not. The Bible even tells us of the perfection that is in Christ, and that we can't attain perfection. And further it argues for constant self-examination and re-evaluation of what we do and why we do it. What I'm saying is that domestic violence is not a mark of Christ, but in addition to that, everything else that we do is marred by human imperfection and that certainly includes a "strict professing" upbringing. The marks of Christ are not a form or recipe to adhere to, but rather a positive expression of love within an imperfect world, an imperfect church, and a sinful life. A lot of it is just what we make of it as we go along. Anyway, I digress. The main point is that much more can be done to prevent and deal with abuse in the context of a Christian community, and in the context of a "strict professing" upbringing, than traditionally has been done. So a "mark of Christ" would be to do those things. Thanks again Whathat ! Some people don't seem to realise that men who abuse their wives are able to put on a "good front" to others, people would never has suspected what was really happening in my family because outwardly it looked wonderful ! "Do as I say, not as I do " are the words that come to mind. So again I will say I had a "strict professing upbringing". Virgo would you like a list of things that I was not allowed to do growing up ? No denim skirts, not allowed to get my hair cut/trimmed at all, no school formals, no movies, no playing sport, no swimming on Sunday ..... is that the extent of your of your "strict professing upbringing", domestic violence?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 23:47:51 GMT -5
Thanks again Whathat ! Some people don't seem to realise that men who abuse their wives are able to put on a "good front" to others, people would never has suspected what was really happening in my family because outwardly it looked wonderful ! "Do as I say, not as I do " are the words that come to mind. So again I will say I had a "strict professing upbringing". Virgo would you like a list of things that I was not allowed to do growing up ? No denim skirts, not allowed to get my hair cut/trimmed at all, no school formals, no movies, no playing sport, no swimming on Sunday ..... is that the extent of your of your "strict professing upbringing", domestic violence? Virgo, I have stated what I was not allowed to do & compared to some people as Ross has said, I did have a strict professing upbringing. As to the domestic violence that is a whole other issue, you seem to think that I don't know what domestic violence is Virgo ?
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Post by rational on Jul 6, 2015 0:02:35 GMT -5
is that the extent of your of your "strict professing upbringing", domestic violence? Virgo, I was stated what I was not allowed to do & compared to some people as Ross has said, I did have a strict professing upbringing. As to the domestic violence that is a whole other issue, you seem to think that I don't know what domestic violence is Virgo ? Like Roselyn T I had a strict professing upbringing. We didn't swim on Sunday nor even play board games. Shopping was out of the question. Perhaps a walk. I don't think Roselyn T was linking the violence to the upbringing but was setting the stage - the environment in which she was brought up strictly followed the written and unwritten rules of professing people and within this environment she also observed domestic violence. I don't believe she was saying that the strict professing upbringing caused the violence.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 0:07:06 GMT -5
is that the extent of your of your "strict professing upbringing", domestic violence? Virgo, I was stated what I was not allowed to do & compared to some people as Ross has said, I did have a strict professing upbringing. As to the domestic violence that is a whole other issue, you seem to think that I don't know what domestic violence is Virgo ? what makes you think that i think you don't know what domestic violence is?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 0:09:00 GMT -5
Virgo, I was stated what I was not allowed to do & compared to some people as Ross has said, I did have a strict professing upbringing. As to the domestic violence that is a whole other issue, you seem to think that I don't know what domestic violence is Virgo ? Like Roselyn T I had a strict professing upbringing. We didn't swim on Sunday nor even play board games. Shopping was out of the question. Perhaps a walk. I don't think Roselyn T was linking the violence to the upbringing but was setting the stage - the environment in which she was brought up strictly followed the written and unwritten rules of professing people and within this environment she also observed domestic violence. I don't believe she was saying that the strict professing upbringing caused the violence. what other things did you do in the time your activities were curtailed?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 6, 2015 0:27:20 GMT -5
Virgo, I was stated what I was not allowed to do & compared to some people as Ross has said, I did have a strict professing upbringing. As to the domestic violence that is a whole other issue, you seem to think that I don't know what domestic violence is Virgo ? Like Roselyn T I had a strict professing upbringing. We didn't swim on Sunday nor even play board games. Shopping was out of the question. Perhaps a walk. I don't think Roselyn T was linking the violence to the upbringing but was setting the stage - the environment in which she was brought up strictly followed the written and unwritten rules of professing people and within this environment she also observed domestic violence. I don't believe she was saying that the strict professing upbringing caused the violence. Thanks Rational ! I seem to have a hard time explaining what I mean ! You have summed it up. I suppose what I am trying to say is outwardly everything looked ok, people looking on would have though we has a wonderful childhood because the dark side was well hidden.
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Post by rational on Jul 6, 2015 0:29:49 GMT -5
what other things did you do in the time your activities were curtailed? I daydreamed of a time when people could share their views worldwide once the ARPANET matured. And, of course, the livestock were not aware it was Sunday.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 6, 2015 0:29:56 GMT -5
Like Roselyn T I had a strict professing upbringing. We didn't swim on Sunday nor even play board games. Shopping was out of the question. Perhaps a walk. I don't think Roselyn T was linking the violence to the upbringing but was setting the stage - the environment in which she was brought up strictly followed the written and unwritten rules of professing people and within this environment she also observed domestic violence. I don't believe she was saying that the strict professing upbringing caused the violence. what other things did you do in the time your activities were curtailed? Work ! I started work as a "Checkout Chick" when I was 13 years old, left school at the end of year 10 & worker fulltime for the next 4 years, then got married !
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Post by emerald on Jul 6, 2015 1:02:55 GMT -5
Like Roselyn T I had a strict professing upbringing. We didn't swim on Sunday nor even play board games. Shopping was out of the question. Perhaps a walk. I don't think Roselyn T was linking the violence to the upbringing but was setting the stage - the environment in which she was brought up strictly followed the written and unwritten rules of professing people and within this environment she also observed domestic violence. I don't believe she was saying that the strict professing upbringing caused the violence. Thanks Rational ! I seem to have a hard time explaining what I mean ! You have summed it up. I suppose what I am trying to say is outwardly everything looked ok, people looking on would have though we has a wonderful childhood because the dark side was well hidden. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a link though. I often remember restless kids being taken out of the meeting/mission/convention and walloped. A lot of my friends talk of being walloped too and their parents would say it was encouraged by the older workers. One even says she and a couple of siblings were up to high jinks that annoyed an older sister worker who complained to her parents and stood and watched as they were given a good hiding. I think the younger workers now are not so "blood thirsty"!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 6, 2015 1:12:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 1:15:20 GMT -5
what other things did you do in the time your activities were curtailed? Work ! I started work as a "Checkout Chick" when I was 13 years old, left school at the end of year 10 & worker fulltime for the next 4 years, then got married ! i mean when you were not allowed to do because it was Sunday as a child
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 1:17:13 GMT -5
Virgo, I was stated what I was not allowed to do & compared to some people as Ross has said, I did have a strict professing upbringing. As to the domestic violence that is a whole other issue, you seem to think that I don't know what domestic violence is Virgo ? what makes you think that i think you don't know what domestic violence is?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 6, 2015 1:19:07 GMT -5
Work ! I started work as a "Checkout Chick" when I was 13 years old, left school at the end of year 10 & worker fulltime for the next 4 years, then got married ! i mean when you were not allowed to do because it was Sunday as a child Stay inside & read a book !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 6, 2015 1:20:06 GMT -5
what makes you think that i think you don't know what domestic violence is? is that the extent of your of your "strict professing upbringing", domestic violence?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 2:06:52 GMT -5
i mean when you were not allowed to do because it was Sunday as a child Stay inside & read a book ! and what was wrong with that? or is the case you didn't like being told by your parents what to do?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 2:09:14 GMT -5
is that the extent of your of your "strict professing upbringing", domestic violence? and that says that i don't know that you know what domestic violence is
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 6, 2015 2:17:13 GMT -5
Stay inside & read a book ! and what was wrong with that? or is the case you didn't like being told by your parents what to do? Virgo, it has got nothing to do with me not liking being told what to do by my father ! I was not game enough to NOT do what I was told ! Its about the rules that we had to abide by that a lot of other kids in the F&W didn't, therefore I believe I was raised strict !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 6, 2015 2:21:40 GMT -5
Thanks again Whathat ! Some people don't seem to realise that men who abuse their wives are able to put on a "good front" to others, people would never has suspected what was really happening in my family because outwardly it looked wonderful ! "Do as I say, not as I do " are the words that come to mind. So again I will say I had a "strict professing upbringing". Virgo would you like a list of things that I was not allowed to do growing up ? No denim skirts, not allowed to get my hair cut/trimmed at all, no school formals, no movies, no playing sport, no swimming on Sunday ..... is that the extent of your of your "strict professing upbringing", domestic violence? Virgo, if I have misunderstood what you mean here I am sorry, but the way it comes across to me is you are questioning the extent of my "strict professing upbringing" and the fact that I witnessed domestic violence. I think we have already established that some of these "rules" were strict.
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 6, 2015 2:30:00 GMT -5
and what was wrong with that? or is the case you didn't like being told by your parents what to do? Virgo, it has got nothing to do with me not liking being told what to do by my father ! I was not game enough to NOT do what I was told ! Its about the rules that we had to abide by that a lot of other kids in the F&W didn't, therefore I believe I was raised strict ! Virgo is either A) A bit thick B) channeling his mate across the ditch from us C) yanking your chain Nobody in their right mind could possibly be that unclear about what you're saying Ros. I'd end the Virgo conversation before you get a big lump on your head from banging your head against that brick wall. FYI I think the answer is a mixture of C & D.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 6, 2015 2:45:28 GMT -5
Thanks Whyisitso ! I was beginning to think I was really not explaining what I meant !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 5:13:16 GMT -5
Virgo, it has got nothing to do with me not liking being told what to do by my father ! I was not game enough to NOT do what I was told ! Its about the rules that we had to abide by that a lot of other kids in the F&W didn't, therefore I believe I was raised strict ! Virgo is either A) A bit thick B) channeling his mate across the ditch from us C) yanking your chain Nobody in their right mind could possibly be that unclear about what you're saying Ros. I'd end the Virgo conversation before you get a big lump on your head from banging your head against that brick wall. FYI I think the answer is a mixture of C & D. here and i thought you were nice
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 6, 2015 6:28:52 GMT -5
Virgo is either A) A bit thick B) channeling his mate across the ditch from us C) yanking your chain Nobody in their right mind could possibly be that unclear about what you're saying Ros. I'd end the Virgo conversation before you get a big lump on your head from banging your head against that brick wall. FYI I think the answer is a mixture of C & D. here and i thought you were nice I try to be I just didn't think there was anything else she could possibly say to help you understand what she was saying... Unless of course if you exchange phone numbers and pick up the phone for a chat
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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2015 10:53:59 GMT -5
Thanks Rational ! I seem to have a hard time explaining what I mean ! You have summed it up. I suppose what I am trying to say is outwardly everything looked ok, people looking on would have though we has a wonderful childhood because the dark side was well hidden. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a link though. I often remember restless kids being taken out of the meeting/mission/convention and walloped. A lot of my friends talk of being walloped too and their parents would say it was encouraged by the older workers. One even says she and a couple of siblings were up to high jinks that annoyed an older sister worker who complained to her parents and stood and watched as they were given a good hiding. I think the younger workers now are not so "blood thirsty"! I tend to agree that there is a link. I'm not sure that the incidents you describe constitute abuse, although they may. And I definitely believe that the majority of the group abhorred the kind of brutal punishment that constitutes child abuse. And a significant number of our contemporaries believed in seldom or never spanking their kids. On the other hand, I have also heard colloquially of some extreme incidents that definitely constitute abuse from a legal perspective, none of which happened more recently than 50 years ago. The problem is that a culture that does promote "not sparing the rod" tends to be dismissive of actual abuse, and does not have either the resources or the wherewithal to deal with abuse.
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