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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 1:04:17 GMT -5
i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family There's plenty of 'professing' people who hide behind the 'professing' tag and do illegal things Virgo. and there is billions who aren't professing who do illegal things
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 1:08:38 GMT -5
i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family The bible does say you shouldn't spare the rod doesn't it? In any case many verses in the bible have been used to justify the disciplining of children to extremes. What I couldn't understand was no one said anything and didn't stand for the child they knew was being abused. it say's spare the rod spoil the child, doesn't say beat the living daylights out of them what we also can't understand why those walked past the wounded man in the good samaritan why we can't understand today why ones walk past those in dire need
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 5, 2015 1:21:43 GMT -5
Quote - "But is domestic violence that does happen in the F&W looked at the same as CSA by the workers ? Is it something that has been brushed under the mat ?" On the farm a little boy brought home a puppy. His father, the elder of that church, dispatched it to the hereafter with a shovel. I heard someone else in the church had a few words with that man - more for the sake of the boy than the dog! What is that supposed to indicate Bert?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 1:38:47 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family Virgo, when you say anyone who loves Christ would deal the same love on their families, what do you mean ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 1:41:17 GMT -5
Quote - "But is domestic violence that does happen in the F&W looked at the same as CSA by the workers ? Is it something that has been brushed under the mat ?" On the farm a little boy brought home a puppy. His father, the elder of that church, dispatched it to the hereafter with a shovel. I heard someone else in the church had a few words with that man - more for the sake of the boy than the dog! Bert, how does that have anything to do with Domestic Violence ! To me that is animal cruelty !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 1:44:09 GMT -5
Hey Virgo, I didn't realise that you lived my childhood ! what do you mean? You said you don't see how it can be termed a "strict professing upbringing" ? So I was wondering if you had lived my childhood, otherwise how could you say it wasn't strict ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 1:46:34 GMT -5
i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family Virgo, when you say anyone who loves Christ would deal the same love on their families, what do you mean ? it explains it's self if one loves Christ they would have the same love for their families, simple
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 1:48:11 GMT -5
Virgo, when you say anyone who loves Christ would deal the same love on their families, what do you mean ? it explains it's self if one loves Christ they would have the same love for their families, simple who said it wasn't strict? O_oread again what i wrote and don't add things to it
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 1:53:51 GMT -5
Virgo, when you say anyone who loves Christ would deal the same love on their families, what do you mean ? it explains it's self if one loves Christ they would have the same love for their families, simple Virgo I think you should go back & read the OP ! I stated that I had a "strict professing upbringing" I also stated that domestic violence was the norm in my family and that I seen things as a child that no child should see. So I am confused by exactly what you mean ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 1:55:12 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family Here is what you said.
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 5, 2015 2:18:47 GMT -5
There's plenty of 'professing' people who hide behind the 'professing' tag and do illegal things Virgo. and there is billions who aren't professing who do illegal things Yes, of course. But that's not who we're talking about here is it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 2:48:23 GMT -5
it explains it's self if one loves Christ they would have the same love for their families, simple Virgo I think you should go back & read the OP ! I stated that I had a "strict professing upbringing" I also stated that domestic violence was the norm in my family and that I seen things as a child that no child should see. So I am confused by exactly what you mean ? i'm not going over it again, it is very simple
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 2:48:57 GMT -5
and there is billions who aren't professing who do illegal things Yes, of course. But that's not who we're talking about here is it? it's what i'm talking about
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 2:53:09 GMT -5
Quote - "What is that supposed to indicate Bert?"
It indicates that if someone has an issue with how another person in the church treats someone else, then it's up to that person to approach the offender and speak to them. Even if it's the offender's child. It won't be on the internet because it's between the complainant and the accused.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 3:28:14 GMT -5
Quote - "What is that supposed to indicate Bert?" It indicates that if someone has an issue with how another person in the church treats someone else, then it's up to that person to approach the offender and speak to them. Even if it's the offender's child. It won't be on the internet because it's between the complainant and the accused.Bert, I am talking about domestic violence as in a parent abusing their partner & the children seeing that happen. The question was how do the workers deal with this situation ? Do they treat it the same way they treat CSA ? If you knew a women was being beaten by her husband what would you do ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 3:31:45 GMT -5
Virgo I think you should go back & read the OP ! I stated that I had a "strict professing upbringing" I also stated that domestic violence was the norm in my family and that I seen things as a child that no child should see. So I am confused by exactly what you mean ? i'm not going over it again, it is very simple Virgo, you seem to think its very simple ! So are you saying that if a child witnesses domestic violence its no big issue ? You have stated that you don't believe my strict upbringing was indeed strict, yet did you live my childhood ? NO you didn't so DON"T try to tell me that my childhood was NOT strict, because you have no idea what you are talking about !
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 5, 2015 3:36:43 GMT -5
Quote - "What is that supposed to indicate Bert?" It indicates that if someone has an issue with how another person in the church treats someone else, then it's up to that person to approach the offender and speak to them.
Even if it's the offender's child. It won't be on the internet because it's between the complainant and the accused. Bert, Domestic violence and child abuse are crimes.
How can you think that they are just issues that "someone in the church can address?"
PS: What has the internet got to do with it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 3:44:55 GMT -5
It was asked here what do we do with cases of domestic violence. Firstly, "domestic violence" wasn't defined. Secondly, it is the duty of any person in the church to attend to personal issues they might have with someone deemed to be offending.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 5:16:08 GMT -5
It was asked here what do we do with cases of domestic violence. Firstly, "domestic violence" wasn't defined. Secondly, it is the duty of any person in the church to attend to personal issues they might have with someone deemed to be offending. Ok Bert, define Domestic Violence. You have indicated what you don't see as domestic violence below : "The second one is the definition of 'domestic violence', some feminists suggest this could even be a man yelling at a woman. Some here might think it's denying children the things most other children enjoy." So please define what you see as domestic violence.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 5, 2015 5:36:22 GMT -5
Rose, I have never thanked you publicly for all the support you have given me in this forum. I do so now!
Also, please just consider the source when anyone attacks you for a perfectly innocent comment you have made here. I wish now with everything within me that is what I had done. It was wrong of/for me to have done anything otherwise, and I grieve over not having done so. It is the course I intend to take in the future! It could be an attack or it could be an opportunity to increase awareness of a serious problem.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 5:48:20 GMT -5
Rose, I have never thanked you publicly for all the support you have given me in this forum. I do so now!
Also, please just consider the source when anyone attacks you for a perfectly innocent comment you have made here. I wish now with everything within me that is what I had done. It was wrong of/for me to have done anything otherwise, and I grieve over not having done so. It is the course I intend to take in the future! It could be an attack or it could be an opportunity to increase awareness of a serious problem. Whathat, it is not an attack, it is an issue that I feel needs to be talked about and how it is handled amongst the F&W.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 5, 2015 5:50:05 GMT -5
i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family The bible does say you shouldn't spare the rod doesn't it? In any case many verses in the bible have been used to justify the disciplining of children to extremes. What I couldn't understand was no one said anything and didn't stand for the child they knew was being abused. This is exactly the problem in a Christian home. The community abhors extreme domestic violence but a certain amount of 'the rod' is considered acceptable. And a blind eye is turned to what is beyond acceptable. Regarding the amount of Amish versus domestic violence in the inner city, I think it is a tough call. In Christian families, domestic abuse is unseen and can go on for many years. In a secular family, a 'cease and desist' order is much more likely to go out, the marriage end, and there are protective measures to which the family can resort. That won't happen in a traditional, conservative Christian family.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 6:00:13 GMT -5
I agree What-Hat, a certain amount of "the rod" is considered acceptable in some cases. As long as everything looks ok to the outside world it seems in some families to continue.
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Post by dano on Jul 5, 2015 8:58:05 GMT -5
Roselyn, I think what Virgo is attempting to convey is that domestic violence is NOT a mark of Christ, therefor, your upbringing which included domestic violence could not be classified as a "strict professing" upbringing because "strict professing" would have included nothing that was not of Christ.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 5, 2015 10:21:23 GMT -5
I agree What-Hat, a certain amount of "the rod" is considered acceptable in some cases. As long as everything looks ok to the outside world it seems in some families to continue. My main point is that because a certain amount is allowed, and women are supposed to be subject to the husband, et cetera, the traditional community has no resources or mechanism to deal properly with abuse. To some extent, the family of an abused woman might administer frontier justice, but pity the woman on the margins without family or married in from outside or from another country or distant state. Even at the best of times a woman might encounter skepticism and responses like "what's his side of the story", "it takes two" and comments about a "woman's place". There is resistance at every step: saying something in the first place, being believed in the second, taking action in the third. So abused women in a traditional faith community often find themselves trapped. And, there is far more abuse than people think. A man can be abusive and not even his own family know. And that's just wife abuse; children have even less agency.
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Post by rational on Jul 5, 2015 10:41:41 GMT -5
Quote - "But is domestic violence that does happen in the F&W looked at the same as CSA by the workers ? Is it something that has been brushed under the mat ?" On the farm a little boy brought home a puppy. His father, the elder of that church, dispatched it to the hereafter with a shovel. I heard someone else in the church had a few words with that man - more for the sake of the boy than the dog! :P Bert, how does that have anything to do with Domestic Violence ! To me that is animal cruelty ! People kill animals for many reasons. Food, because they are a an unnecessary burden, because they have multiplied too quickly, because they are just not liked. The reason why the dog was killed was not given. Would the same concern be given for a mouse caught in a trap? What is it about cats and dogs that makes people take leave of their senses?
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Post by What Hat on Jul 5, 2015 12:11:20 GMT -5
Roselyn, I think what Virgo is attempting to convey is that domestic violence is NOT a mark of Christ, therefor, your upbringing which included domestic violence could not be classified as a "strict professing" upbringing because "strict professing" would have included nothing that was not of Christ. Except that isn't correct. A "strict professing" upbringing and a "mark of Christ" upbringing aren't the same thing. You may well argue that they should be the same thing. But in practice they're not. The Bible even tells us of the perfection that is in Christ, and that we can't attain perfection. And further it argues for constant self-examination and re-evaluation of what we do and why we do it. What I'm saying is that domestic violence is not a mark of Christ, but in addition to that, everything else that we do is marred by human imperfection and that certainly includes a "strict professing" upbringing. The marks of Christ are not a form or recipe to adhere to, but rather a positive expression of love within an imperfect world, an imperfect church, and a sinful life. A lot of it is just what we make of it as we go along. Anyway, I digress. The main point is that much more can be done to prevent and deal with abuse in the context of a Christian community, and in the context of a "strict professing" upbringing, than traditionally has been done. So a "mark of Christ" would be to do those things.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2015 13:20:13 GMT -5
The bible does say you shouldn't spare the rod doesn't it? In any case many verses in the bible have been used to justify the disciplining of children to extremes. What I couldn't understand was no one said anything and didn't stand for the child they knew was being abused. it say's spare the rod spoil the child, doesn't say beat the living daylights out of them what we also can't understand why those walked past the wounded man in the good samaritan why we can't understand today why ones walk past those in dire need As far as children who were disobedient in the OT, parents were supposed to stone them. That's pretty drastic I think. But I agree with you that there is no understanding of how people can turn their backs on those that need help if they can help.
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