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Post by Greg on Jul 4, 2015 5:46:23 GMT -5
There's this old saying,"Nationalism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." I often think that could be applied to academia. So if someone inpugns your standard of behavior you can say to them (or even yourself) for instance, "You are telling ME what is right or wrong? ME who has a Masters in Aramaic and did a Ph.D. in the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls?" I have met people like that. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time. However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism. For more of Samuel Johnson's thoughts on patriotism in general, go to the patriotism page. For a discussion on a possible false patriot who Johnson might have been thinking of, see this discussion. - samueljohnson.com/refuge.html
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 4, 2015 6:14:39 GMT -5
I was in the mood before redback's thread >> Let There Be Peace. << I changed my mind, am I allowed to do that? If you really need proof look around here on TMB, on the WF&E board, on TLT or VOT, I think you are honest and smart enough to figure it out. You just don't get it, Jessie.
You keep saying that people say things that are "not true."
Often they are stating their feelings.
There needs to be some "serious self-reflection" by you & others as to why some people feel this way instead of just saying that it isn't true what they are saying.
You also talk about "responsibility." Some of the "responsibility" lies with those that remain within the **TRUTH** (as we called it) as why some people feel as they do.
You keep saying, << Let There Be Peace, >> like some kind of at mantra but it won't work by just saying it.I've pointed out specific lies and misrepresentations way too many times. bert has a huge lists of lies and misrepresentations - one list is of lie and misrepresentations that directly contradict each other. It's pretty amazing. Check it out or put your cursor over this and click! >> Let There Be Peace. <<
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Post by Greg on Jul 4, 2015 6:36:43 GMT -5
I've pointed out specific lies and misrepresentations way too many times. bert has a huge lists of lies and misrepresentations - one list is of lie and misrepresentations that directly contradict each other. It's pretty amazing. Check it out or put your cursor over this and click! >> Let There Be Peace. << I think I have read a few lines of Bert's list. "Few" being 5 o 6 or so, as best I can remember. Without getting into specifics, hard to know or identify what are the alleged lies and misrepresentations. Perhaps some statements are generalized and some are just about a person's experience. As for misrepresentation, is that intentional or accidental? Someone thinks there has always been workers - as in the workers of the friends and workers - worker-to-worker, preaching "the truth". As in the unbroken chain. Someone knows that the first workers of the friends and workers came from Ireland about 1900, but does not correct the others thinking/belief. Is there misrepresentation? The first being accidental and the second being intentional?
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Post by rational on Jul 4, 2015 6:43:43 GMT -5
I've pointed out specific lies and misrepresentations way too many times. bert has a huge lists of lies and misrepresentations - one list is of lie and misrepresentations that directly contradict each other. It's pretty amazing. Check it out or put your cursor over this and click! >> Let There Be Peace. << I think I have read a few lines of Bert's list. "Few" being 5 o 6 or so, as best I can remember. Without getting into specifics, hard to know or identify what are the alleged lies and misrepresentations. Perhaps some statements are generalized and some are just about a person's experience. As for misrepresentation, is that intentional or accidental? Someone thinks there has always been workers - as in the workers of the friends and workers - worker-to-worker, preaching "the truth". As in the unbroken chain. Someone knows that the first workers of the friends and workers came from Ireland about 1900, but does not correct the others thinking/belief. Is there misrepresentation? The first being accidental and the second being intentional? Or is it the difference between a claimed fact supported by verifiable facts of a belief supported by faith?
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Post by Greg on Jul 4, 2015 6:45:22 GMT -5
I think I have read a few lines of Bert's list. "Few" being 5 o 6 or so, as best I can remember. Without getting into specifics, hard to know or identify what are the alleged lies and misrepresentations. Perhaps some statements are generalized and some are just about a person's experience. As for misrepresentation, is that intentional or accidental? Someone thinks there has always been workers - as in the workers of the friends and workers - worker-to-worker, preaching "the truth". As in the unbroken chain. Someone knows that the first workers of the friends and workers came from Ireland about 1900, but does not correct the others thinking/belief. Is there misrepresentation? The first being accidental and the second being intentional? Or is it the difference between a claimed fact supported by verifiable facts of a belief supported by faith? Could be.
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Post by snow on Jul 4, 2015 12:44:58 GMT -5
I think I have read a few lines of Bert's list. "Few" being 5 o 6 or so, as best I can remember. Without getting into specifics, hard to know or identify what are the alleged lies and misrepresentations. Perhaps some statements are generalized and some are just about a person's experience. As for misrepresentation, is that intentional or accidental? Someone thinks there has always been workers - as in the workers of the friends and workers - worker-to-worker, preaching "the truth". As in the unbroken chain. Someone knows that the first workers of the friends and workers came from Ireland about 1900, but does not correct the others thinking/belief. Is there misrepresentation? The first being accidental and the second being intentional? Or is it the difference between a claimed fact supported by verifiable facts of a belief supported by faith? I think it's much easier to pull off misrepresentations and outright lies with people of faith because people are very proud of being able to believe things that have no proof if they are of the spiritual nature. More susceptible to belief because belief is important along with a good dose of faith.
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Post by rational on Jul 4, 2015 13:45:40 GMT -5
I think it's much easier to pull off misrepresentations and outright lies with people of faith because people are very proud of being able to believe things that have no proof if they are of the spiritual nature. More susceptible to belief because belief is important along with a good dose of faith. And a number of posters have pointed out to me that god provides the proof of his/her existence to those who choose to believe. God will not, from what I can tell, prove his/her existence to me unless/until I believe there is a god. I, of course, will believe as soon as god provided the proof. I guess it is a standoff between an unbeliever and a claimed entity that only provides proof to those who do not require such proof.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 5, 2015 1:14:01 GMT -5
You just don't get it, Jessie.
You keep saying that people say things that are "not true."
Often they are stating their feelings.
There needs to be some "serious self-reflection" by you & others as to why some people feel this way instead of just saying that it isn't true what they are saying.
You also talk about "responsibility." Some of the "responsibility" lies with those that remain within the **TRUTH** (as we called it) as why some people feel as they do.
You keep saying, << Let There Be Peace, >> like some kind of at mantra but it won't work by just saying it. I've pointed out specific lies and misrepresentations way too many times. bert has a huge lists of lies and misrepresentations - one list is of lie and misrepresentations that directly contradict each other. It's pretty amazing. Check it out or put your cursor over this and click! >> Let There Be Peace. <<
I've seen Bert's list. As is per Bert's usual way, his list does NOT give any references as to who ever states those things.
Bert just states his posts with NO references as to how authentic they are. Over & over again, Bert does that!
He just seems to think that because HE, BERT, states something that we should take what he states as true! He will give no back up references at all.
As for as your suggestion that I "check it out or put your cursor over this and click! >> Let There Be Peace. <<.
Do you think that I am posting you about it and not have already read it? Please give me credit that I don't post about something that I am not aware of.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 5, 2015 21:14:17 GMT -5
It was more the tone Review, than the words. I appreciate it is often difficult to express in type, how you can speak using intonation and volume. Maybe I mis-interpreted your words, but it did seem as though you weren't holding theologians and scholars in high esteem.
It was also the tone of some of the other posts I have seen, that made me wonder with respect to your motives. Some people (exes) on this board, including Dennis, obviously have been wronged, and some very badly wronged by workers and or friends. To suggest that they just let it go and forgive (my words), is not quite right. If a church holds to the doctrine of exclusivity and then asks those that leave to exercise the workings of the Spirit (forgive etc) which it denies that they still have, seems a bit of a reverse logic side step. I would have thought acknowledging that they were wronged, expressing some sort of sympathy that it happened, and letting people know you were trying help address the wrongs so that they don't happen again, would have been a better option.
In saying that, though, I think it is good that you have contributed to the board, which is a bridge building exercise in itself, and not just lurked, and reported back to seniors who you think certain suspects might be, as has happened to some in the past. Well, I assume you don't.
As for a coffee with Dennis. Irrespective of the conditions he was putting on you, as one representing the church that still espouses a doctrine of being God's only true way, (albeit somewhat diluted these days), it surely would have been a worthwhile bridge-building exercise. You just don't know what benefit might have arisen. In senior management, when it comes to problem resolution, we always operate on the "never say no" and work through the pre-conditions, step by step, and it usually works towards a favourable outcome. And face to face changes things dramatically.
I hardly ever contribute to this forum, as I cannot be bothered with the tedium, nor the pedantic and argumentative way many write. I am too busy to have that in my life But when I saw these to and fro posts, and understood who was who, and what was what, I felt I needed to say something about bringing the best out of each other, and not the worst.
May God bless
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 5, 2015 22:07:34 GMT -5
It was more the tone Review, than the words. I appreciate it is often difficult to express in type, how you can speak using intonation and volume. Maybe I mis-interpreted your words, but it did seem as though you weren't holding theologians and scholars in high esteem. It was also the tone of some of the other posts I have seen, that made me wonder with respect to your motives. Some people (exes) on this board, including Dennis, obviously have been wronged, and some very badly wronged by workers and or friends. To suggest that they just let it go and forgive (my words), is not quite right. If a church holds to the doctrine of exclusivity and then asks those that leave to exercise the workings of the Spirit (forgive etc) which it denies that they still have, seems a bit of a reverse logic side step. I would have thought acknowledging that they were wronged, expressing some sort of sympathy that it happened, and letting people know you were trying help address the wrongs so that they don't happen again, would have been a better option. In saying that, though, I think it is good that you have contributed to the board, which is a bridge building exercise in itself, and not just lurked, and reported back to seniors who you think certain suspects might be, as has happened to some in the past. Well, I assume you don't. As for a coffee with Dennis. Irrespective of the conditions he was putting on you, as one representing the church that still espouses a doctrine of being God's only true way, (albeit somewhat diluted these days), it surely would have been a worthwhile bridge-building exercise. You just don't know what benefit might have arisen. In senior management, when it comes to problem resolution, we always operate on the "never say no" and work through the pre-conditions, step by step, and it usually works towards a favourable outcome. And face to face changes things dramatically. I hardly ever contribute to this forum, as I cannot be bothered with the tedium, nor the pedantic and argumentative way many write. I am too busy to have that in my life But when I saw these to and fro posts, and understood who was who, and what was what, I felt I needed to say something about bringing the best out of each other, and not the worst. May God bless Quote of the week
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kj
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Post by kj on Jul 5, 2015 22:22:08 GMT -5
If I understand this correctly Dennis J is being blamed for another's request to relate more details about how a vague someone believes from an event 30-some years ago. Some of those details required supporting information from his memories of his childhood with parents and sister dead. He declined to bring it all up again, but, record was found of it by another, which he acknowledged was what he had expressed a decade ago. And now some think his conduct in this bringing it all up again is HIS fault! Either partially or entirely, and it is basically a "worker" who is attempting to slant this account in a manner that discredits Dennis. Is this correct, or is it not, and if not what is not correct?
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 6, 2015 2:43:43 GMT -5
1) Your question Did You? The Answer is yes, and I have known of Dennis' situation for many years. While there are two sides to a story, I heard the other from a Worker in Europe at the time, who died at my parents home, and he felt that Dennis had been treated very poorly.
2) You made a criticism on either this thread or another about Dennis bringing up his past from decades ago. If that was not implying or suggesting he should forget and forgive, what is? I can't be bothered to go and find it, as the Server is very slow and I have deadlines to meet. If it wasn't what you meant, then I will withdraw it, otherwise it stands.
3) I am genuine in my statement about bridge building, by being on here. That is not patronising, but showing appreciation.
4) If the workers had some genuine people management skills and training, there would not be half the messes that there are. I have seen some pretty big messes in my time caused by lack of people skills in workers, and over-bearing elders
5) The doctrine of exclusivity is a stumbling stone for many, especially in my country where it was addressed by a number of workers recently, with our head worker addressing it also in Europe.
6) Because the right procedure has been followed in instances that you know of, there are many where it hasn't, and people are genuinely hurting. And there are some on this board.
7) I am certainly not out for a bit of fun. I am sincere and genuine. I would not treat God's gift of Salvation in that manner.
I have said my piece now, and will go back to lurking, as I am about to be travelling for some time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 6:20:45 GMT -5
Quote - "I've seen Bert's list. As is per Bert's usual way, his list does NOT give any references as to who ever states those things.
Bert just states his posts with NO references as to how authentic they are. Over & over again, Bert does that!
He just seems to think that because HE, BERT, states something that we should take what he states as true! He will give no back up references at all."
Dmmichgood, I used to have this "Weekly Quotes" thread. I would compile all the interesting ones and post them each week, with a prize for the best one. Took a lot of work, and it inflamed people. I was accused of "taking things out of context" which I didn't. No need to, really. When these were posted they had the author's name or alias attached. Later I stripped these when they were in my general register - no need for them. We understand the spirit by which they were written.
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Strong's
Jul 6, 2015 6:23:42 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Mary on Jul 6, 2015 6:23:42 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit do you mean Bert?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 7:14:28 GMT -5
Quote - 'The Holy Spirit do you mean Bert?'
It's a spirit for sure, maybe a confused, drunk or schizoid, but certainly, a vicious one.
For example:
They can’t agree on anything. They all think the same.
Believe they are the only ones saved. They can’t tell if they are saved.
Obsessed with works Morally lazy.
Live like royalty and never lift a finger Work themselves to the bone for nothing
Most of them have TV’s. Shun those who have TV’s.
Will not survive beyond the next ten years (written 2007) The church is becoming another Megachurch
Workers don’t speak long enough in meetings Workers speak too long in meetings
The Secret Sect book put the kybosh on the "Shores of Galilee" claim. After the Secret Sect published the overseers pushed the "Shores of Galilee" confusion.
Turn Workers graves into shrines. Neglect Workers graves.
Enforce a dress code. Don't bother to enforce a dress code.
Their doctrine varies from one place to the next. ...the system won't change in one area and not the rest of the world.....they all want to be "unified."
Initiated the “quietness program” before the start of meetings in the 1960’s or 1970’s. The quietness before the meetings came from Victorian attitudes towards respect. Invented the quietness program out of reverence because people in meetings in the preceding time zone would, at that moment, be partaking of the emblems.
Early Christians didn't meet in homes Early Christians met in homes for fear of the Jews
Jesus is not mentioned at funerals except in hymns. Don’t talk about the deceased at funerals, only Jesus.
Conventions don’t have proper amenities Some conventions now have elaborate amenities
Conventions have become sacred sites You would think the convention grounds were just farms.
Stand at gospel mission exits to gain handouts Stand at gospel mission exits to turn exes away
They are blinded by their feelings of self importance. Too taken up with personal humility.
Workers don’t care about the problems of the friends Workers spend too much time in the personal lives/business of the friends.
Friends don't visit former members who are dying Friends visit former members in hospital to save their own dirty conscience
Can’t get outsiders to attend missions. They have strict rules to keep outsiders away.
Too organized and too authoritative Can't organize themselves in a fit.
Too much focus upon Paul and not enough on Jesus Too much on Jesus and not enough on God
They dress like they are stuck in the morass of dowdiness. Their girls show bare legs and cleavage which Christians of any denomination should not approve of.
Spit on the divorce and remarriage in every meeting as part of worship, as is officially written into their doctrine. Men Workers like to stay with attractive divorced women.
Workers act as confidants instead of wise counsel or directing them to a marriage counsellor, mental health professional or financial planner. Don’t spend time with the sick
Workers don’t accept alternative sexual ideas The Work is a natural gravitating point for homosexuals
Workers flee from adversity Workers tell about their sacrifices
Worker’s preaching is too simplistic Workers have made the gospel too complicated.
Believe good works don't count towards salvation. They believe they are saved through good works.
Nothing ever changes They change all the time
Workers don’t preach anything outside the bible Workers tell too many personal stories
They can’t live without their Workers Most people enjoy times when the Workers are out of town
They are indoctrinated by the Workers. Most indoctrination is done through mothers rather than Workers.
Men are chauvinistic woman-haters because they offer thanks for emblems Women are spiritually lazy for not offering thanks for emblems
They suffer from loneliness 2x2s have ready made friends without exertion.
They join the fellowship to have happy marriages. They fake happy marriages.
People repeat themselves in meetings. People are pressured to have something new in the meeting.
Young friends marry young to avoid the Work. Young people join the Work to gain Worker approval.
Don’t read their bible. Refuse any reading material other than their bible.
They are not allowed to swim on Saturdays. They are not allowed to swim on Sundays
The “friend" is the attractor, and the "Worker" is the preacher. Friends serve to repulse, rather than attract.
Friends reject the internet They preach on the Internet.
Parents upset about their children going into the Work. Parents pressure children into the Work.
Professing men look at women top down because they are used to long skirts. The men FIRST looked all the way up her pretty short-skirt legs BEFORE they developed a frown of disapproval on their faces.
Friends shun those who leave Friends try to make exes feel guilty by continuing grace towards them.
Worker control keeps the Truth from falling apart Worker control is the reason the Truth is falling apart
Become obese because eating is the one physical pleasure that is allowed by the Leadership. Stay slim to have that certain "professing" image
Irvine was Communistic Irvine put the fear of Communism into people to convert them
Membership started falling in the 1960’s Membership started falling with the internet in the late 1990’s
Meetings don’t mention Jesus All they do is talk about Jesus
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 7:18:56 GMT -5
Dmmichgood, here was the last posted Weekly Quote April 2013. Authorship was not only noted, but often, eagerly sought.
Here are a few new quotes from April. I thought to get them out quickly because my register was filling up fast! I included Ram's " Irvinism is idolatry" because many of us are accused here of not knowing the man, yet Irvine (Chief Exe) seems to be the Most Honored Guest right here on the TMB. I wish to add that I don't necessarily disbelieve everything written - it's just that they can sound so funny.
Most hilarious quote.
Funniest quotes.
Best Missing-The-Point quote.
Most interesting quotes.
Best cognitive dissonance quote.
Best unsubstantiated quotes
Funniest winners to date: • brothers worker and sisters workers replacing glasses with contacts. • Many of these old folks mean well. They are nearing the end of the journey and fear a "lost eternity" if they think too deep about their sacred beliefs. • ... convention workers flee to their quarters. • The workers have their version of the KJ Bible but unlike the JWs they are afraid to print it. • Workers salt slugs. • The F&W church is not a registered entity for tax compliance. • I've stopped believing in a pass/fail system. • Male workers apparently have to wear gold-toe socks. It's like one of those unwritten rules I think. • The Truth fellowship meetings originated from England in the late 1800s and seems to be stuck in the traditions of that era. From the quiet room, handshake after meeting, to the dress code, black bible cases and dark suites… • Folks make sure the beer bottles in the fridge are concealed when the workers come. • One of the justifications that the workers will use is that the workers not having a home are cheaper to maintain. • One worker stated … if you read funny papers from the newspaper on Sunday after fellowship meetings you were DEAD • The only thing that the "J-O-Y" sermon produces, if taken to heart, is a bunch of dejected, self deprecating people trying to compete for last position. It is difficult to detect the joyful glint in that setup. • Perhaps in the next 50 years, machine sheds will be history, and people will be saying, "Free at last, free at last." • … the first workers begin to realize "hey, we're going to need to make some of our new converts into supporters for us." And thus the lower level of "friends or saints" was formed. • There have been a number of death threats recorded (by the Workers) but no evidence that murder has yet taken place. • … the norm in the meetings -Watching TV programs outside electrical shopfronts so that you can pretend you have a TV at school/work. • One of the tenets of one organization is "get the new inductee to do something illegal, no matter how minor, and they are yours." This is basically how it works in the work. • Workers ally themselves with sycophantic princes and princesses. The princes and princesses lord it over the peasants and have no care and no mercy towards them. • (There are) certain diets, vitamins, and health practices used among the friends and workers. These are done so that professing folks stay slim and have that certain "professing" image. • Moral assassinations are generally malicious gossip produced when competition is perceived for a professing privilege, and one professing person REALLY wants to win. • There are more rules/pressures for professing females than for professing males. This could be due to there being more females than males - the bigger the group, the more competition to be noticed by others. • Faith Mission was started by the founder being highly influenced by the Holiness movement. It's not surprising, with the Irvine using Faith Mission's style, that 2x2 women resemble Holiness women. Sort of a parent/child resemblance. • My folks are comfortably off but weren't rich enough to be considered good enough to be associated with (the 2x2’s) • I knew of workers who would visit friends' homes (including elders homes) when no one was home and go through closets and drawers and then later confront them with their findings. • The arrogant, evil workers are not trash from the past.... They are a very real and present danger. • … now that the workers have amassed lots of money, the friends are expendable. • The term "this way" has become popular in recent years. • I even heard somebody give a testimony about the "diverse temptations" being mermaids. Figure that one out. • Some old school workers and friends still preach and teach that being happy is a sign of something wrong in your service to the Lord. • Mr. Wm. Irvine is the Standard • "Preaching of the cross?" Few workers do that and even those who do hardly touch on the subject. • (There are) many indirect references to Jesus in meetings - that I found strange because why the avoidance of using his actual name. • Try to convince an outsider that workers don't really have homes when they spend so much time on the convention grounds • I don't think our particular form of doing church is anywhere to be found in Acts. • Last big change in U.S. that I heard was no more praying into the chairs. • (re definition of the “narrow way”) A narrow way, so narrow every person must walk it one at a time. No loving God would decree that people be stoned for any reason. • The F&Ws have all the latest devices so they no longer have a "competitive advantage" on the supposed holiness that comes from not having a TV. • It looks like people like to still have a sort of priesthood. That is an old notion that has stayed with us. A notion likely, again, preserved by the Catholic Church and handed to the protestants. So the workers hung on to it also. • (re ownership of a TV) … inspired jealousy in those who did not possess such things. Jealousy, the green eyed monster is what needed preaching against and not every novel item of technology. IMO. • It would seem in the Christian dimension there are workaholics, and there are graceaholics. The workaholics work themselves to death and then receive their reward, the graceaholics chill by the pool with a cold one, and receive the same reward. • Try to get a worker or much less an overseer to leave conventions to go and help one person. I have tried. I get the same response with several overseers. "Too busy" • When a senior worker asserted that King James English is "honorific English" it seemed best to leave him in his ignorance • I think one thing I did not learn while in the fellowship and that was the desperate need to pray that God would increase my faith in Jesus Christ • A worker once said to me "our usefulness is in fitting in". That could be said for any dictatorship. • The Joe average six pack worker lives a double life. • Most 2x2s wouldn't stop to help like the Samaritan did -- it would make them late for gospel meeting • 2x2 sister workers are too homely to attract mates • Workers asked us to trade bedrooms because they felt ours was warmer than theirs. • It's unfortunate that we have to rely on the hymns to keep Jesus in the meetings. • What God has preserved in our Bible hardly compares to what a few people have researched about the church history • Peasants in South America who brought bread in from the fields to meetings, which was far richer and more wholesome than the workers got from their (King James's) bibles • I get frustrated when I hear preachers begging for money to support themselves and the missions abroad • Newsflash! Jesus was God; the word made flesh. Workers are just, well...workers. • Workers over here back in the 60's believed they were Jesus in the 20th century. After all, he was only a man....and well...so are we! • Seems like I remember there is a worker that owns some oil wells in Texas. • The fact that the original 12 didn't go out 2x2 probably explains why there is no evidence that 2x2 was part of the Acts of the Apostles. • I submit they (workers) are referring to their choice to be celibate ministers is what gives them their alleged special revelation and authority. • I would imagine that skipping gospel meetings is sending a pretty strong message to some of the workers. If people aren't willing to go listen to the same ol' same ol', it won't be long before the homes open to them becomes fewer also. • … facing one's fear with positive views/input is the way to overcome the false guilt that the professing woman's uniform has instilled in many women. • It seems to me that the friends steer clear of scriptural discussions as they subconsciously realise that they will be out of their depth… • We have heard different accounts of how dogs wouldn't bark when saints enter the meeting home • I have personally attended many, hundreds, of gospel meetings where Christ was not mentioned at all. • I know some women who wouldn’t shave under their arms without asking the workers permission first. • Forcing children to eat is considered part of breaking their wills and teaching them to submit to parental authority. If they refuse or cannot, the workers view it as rebellion. • They (the women) submit to the men of the group who tend to wear dark-colored clothes and carry black-covered King James Versions of the Bible. • I think that fear of reprisal is a big reason for the turnout (at convention) • Wasn't Willie Irvine a coal miner before he found the mother lode in the pockets of his followers? • Yes, the 2x2's will continue. But in the end.....one will be left, the other taken. • Workers drown cats. • The 2x2 copy and paste bible is not in my library anymore. • The fact is the more I focus on Christ, the less I go to the gospel meetings because I really don't hear about Him there. The more I focus on Jesus the less I want to go to Sunday AM meeting because He isn't the focus He needs to be. • I suggested (to a worker) that you can never go wrong preaching about salvation. He looked at me like I had 3 eyeballs and said "that's a subject that would REALLY get me in trouble". • In our town those who had the intention to get baptized used to get a list of do's and don’ts before they qualify • (re workers) The friend's bedrooms are safer and more comfortable than the ghettos. • freedom at last..........no workers peeking in the windows at my TV, or novel, or radio, or curling iron, etc • The 2x2 church which I became a member of was an organisation. It had an HQ and a mailing address and produced a little book of member's names and telephone numbers • (Workers live with) those who "open their homes", violating the trust, sanctity, sacred intimacy, and the sacred father and the sacred mother figure. • After much prayer and meditation, it seemed to me that the one doing the baptism was God. The workers simply held my head in the creek. • In the 1960’s or 1970’s the workers initiated the “quietness program” before the start of meetings. • 70-something years old elder's wife quipped to our overseer, "Oh - pish! Do you think we women can't tell when a man has a hard-on through his jeans? Where is the modesty there?" • Professing ladies' buns fall down in car accidents. • Professing people deceive and advocate deceit when they pretend they drink alcohol by carrying round a half empty glass. • New people coming to gospel meetings who endure off-key mournful singing are hardly going to view that "difference" as Godly, perhaps the opposite • One person wasn't accepted into the work because of his teeth. • 84 year old lady upset in confrontation with a worker for having family pictures instead of worker pictures on her piano. • As a kid it embarrassed me that men carried their bibles and hymn books in handbags to Sunday meetings. • Some are groomed to be workers because they may not be able to get real jobs or are too ugly to find a mate. • Workers criticize clergy for wearing clerical garb but we see so many brother workers wearing tight, grey cardigans. • In the olden days, the workers would have crashed a party on Saturday night. • Professing boy streaked at the football game • The workers do not claim to be "penniless." They were to get their money out of the "mouths of the fish they caught." • I wanted to rip my clothes off and go outside to enjoy the day that God gave than sit in dressy clothes around a dining room table talking about workers. • These days Workers delay baptizing teenagers to show the youth who is boss. • Workers don’t raise the dead. • In my 2x2 childhood cracking your knuckles was pure evil. • A 2x2 child was told that black people are the curse of Ham for looking at Noah • A Worker or Overseer said some ladies leaving a church wearing pant suits were surely going to hell • Membership of the 2x2 way has increased only slightly or started to decline because God only requires 144,000 souls. • Workers have cell phones. Jesus doesn't have a phone. You can just talk right to Him anytime, any place. • George Peterson said Mary wrapped Jesus in swaddling clothing to deprive him of his human nature. • Friend was told to pray for his former wife’s death rather than bother the workers with requests to remarry • If you only need a building just once a year then your church is not very blessed by God. • In recent times TV is okay by all accounts and watched in holes by workers. • Professing lady stepped over her husband's body (not professing) to go to Sunday meeting • Workers prevent people from bursting forth in the Holy Spirit by restricting their time to give testimonies.
Best cognitive dissonance quotes to date: • I'll just stick to the facts and read the books on the 2x2s. Happy Feet (re conversation about the many books demonstrating Paul was the originator of Christianity) • I think some workers and some friends are a bit naive as to the dangers that can befall human beings. This could be because they are a bit sheltered from the world and the realities of the world • Yes, all the individual churches are one church. • One way to enhance the value of an object is to make it a limited edition (or distribution, in this case). Perhaps that is the reason. (re “Why are convention speaking lists so “secretive”) • The fellowship needs to encourage young people to enter by thanking workers when they leave. • … exclusivity amongst the overseers is probably not an elephant in the room because it is the sacred cow. • They never told me that the truth fellowship went back to the shores of Galilee. Of course it can be argued that they never told me it didn't, so therefore perpetuated a lie. • the abomination is not in what they wear. It says what they do is the abomination. • No Godly spirit has a spirit of criticism. • The church in the home, and the preacher without a home" is not what saves us. Salvation is knowing God the Father and his son Jesus Christ, hearing and obeying God's word. • "The true church" is not in the Bible. • I don't care for Bert's lists very much because it seems like he uses them to degrade people. • William Irvine founded the F&W's sect upon the Matthew 10 principle. Some other Christian churches are founded upon the chief corner stone, Jesus Christ • The vast majority of what you see as contradictions are not. They are merely two separate true statements sitting side by side. • If workers preached Jesus only then it wouldn't matter about the history (of Irvine). • And there is a lot of bare leg and cleavage. Young women are quite sexy, which I don't think Christians of any denomination would approve of. • It was Paul and not the BIBLE who said what he said about woman's subjection and several other things related to women. • It's amazing how many people will try to live solely by the bible, and ignore what's been written on our hearts. • (Regards copying the example of the New Testament church) A copy is a counterfeit. I prefer the real thing. • (In reply to “Workers often ask the friends to have brief testimonies”) and this is another way workers show they are more important than everyone else because they don't have to condense their thoughts to fit into 1 or 2 minutes. • The same fear that keeps so many young folks from going into the work often keeps workers from leaving the work. • There was a high level of sell about going into the work. Single people were targeted with the message of considering the noblest thing in life… To not consider going into the work, if you were young and single, was almost tantamount to going against God's will for your life… A quite subtle recruiting campaign … • The only way that the worker way cares about the inside of a person is that they have to make themselves meek, child-like, willing, with a soft heart, all of which means being open to conforming to the worker rules and then they call this conforming the work of God on a person's life. • God does not do religion • God wants me to look like the world except modest to show a difference by His Spirit, not by outward appearance. • Just because a pastor gets paid doesn't make him a hireling. • Workers should never talk about what is wasting time if they are not prepared to offer lots of activities that makes time productive. • With a Sunday meeting, a Wednesday meeting and two gospel meetings the friends don't have a chance to let the spirit of Christ work. • I sometimes spoke about my disbelief in the trinity in the meeting. The workers warned me to believe in the trinity or go, so I went. • Convention buildings and land belong to the workers. But it is not on a deed so therefore there is no tracing of it. • They are stupid in wanting proof for what is clearly hearsay against them. • Being ignorant of secret happenings within 2x2ism is a form of evidence there is something secret going on. • Every member is aware of the suppression system, but part of being 'faithful', is denying that you are aware of it. • The Bible says few find eternal life and this lead some of the 2x2’s to believe they are in the “narrow way” because they are few in number.
Most revealing quotes. • can't even imagine relying on TMB for a helpful therapeutic experience! Granted, it is cheap--but you are likely getting what you pay for --very little that will assist or uplift most people here. • I'm hearing the "Will of God" preached a lot from workers holding gospel meetings. Anybody have an idea what this means? • Paul's writings are FOR THE MOST PART compassionate and helpful. • I see little in the sheep nature which is commendable. • Seems Paul is the ruler of Christianity, eh? Everthing in Christian denominations gets measured by Paul's thoughts and commands. • The history of the church has been recorded by those who are no longer members. South-by-Southwest. • Irvine founded the organization, not the method. • The preaching of the workers was entertainment. These days, TV and movies are more entertaining • Perhaps Jesus erred in pushing the Messiah idea...or perhaps his disciples so admired him that they erred in pushing the Messiah title upon him. • If you take your doctrine only from the New Testament, your doctrine is going to be incomplete. • There are lots of examples of Luke's imagination gone wild, but I confess it's the crazy impossibilities of Acts that taints my view of Luke as much as anything. • Paul's invention, I think we can agree, was more radical than Irvine's. • Anything that diminishes love is ungodly and deceitful -- including the hopeless religious attempts of bible-toter's to build and maintain love on the foundation of a marriage certificate • God in the Old Testament did not have a great track record with the physical side of things. • Several books of the bible seem to have been written under the influence of some sort of hallucinogenic. • The flawed premise states that the 1st century church is the perfect pattern which is to be emulated in all details for all time. This is one of the primary fundamentals of the F&W church. • 2x2's can be as wicked as they want to be when they get on the internet boards and don’t have to show respect.
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Post by rational on Jul 6, 2015 8:24:49 GMT -5
1) Your question Did You? The Answer is yes, and I have known of Dennis' situation for many years. While there are two sides to a story, I heard the other from a Worker in Europe at the time, who died at my parents home, and he felt that Dennis had been treated very poorly. He may well have been treated poorly. Hazarding a guess, it probably has to do less with being a worker than interpersonal skills of the participants. For whatever reason, @dennisj did post at least two events from his past highlighting the wrong doings of other workers. I believe that the reason given for posting them was because of topics brought up by @review005. Perhaps @denisj could expand on that. Perhaps the doctrine of exclusivity also explains why people are moving away from christianity. The F&W might just be reflecting the general migration.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 6, 2015 10:00:32 GMT -5
It was more the tone Review, than the words. I appreciate it is often difficult to express in type, how you can speak using intonation and volume. Maybe I mis-interpreted your words, but it did seem as though you weren't holding theologians and scholars in high esteem. It was also the tone of some of the other posts I have seen, that made me wonder with respect to your motives. Some people (exes) on this board, including Dennis, obviously have been wronged, and some very badly wronged by workers and or friends. To suggest that they just let it go and forgive (my words), is not quite right. If a church holds to the doctrine of exclusivity and then asks those that leave to exercise the workings of the Spirit (forgive etc) which it denies that they still have, seems a bit of a reverse logic side step. I would have thought acknowledging that they were wronged, expressing some sort of sympathy that it happened, and letting people know you were trying help address the wrongs so that they don't happen again, would have been a better option. In saying that, though, I think it is good that you have contributed to the board, which is a bridge building exercise in itself, and not just lurked, and reported back to seniors who you think certain suspects might be, as has happened to some in the past. Well, I assume you don't. As for a coffee with Dennis. Irrespective of the conditions he was putting on you, as one representing the church that still espouses a doctrine of being God's only true way, (albeit somewhat diluted these days), it surely would have been a worthwhile bridge-building exercise. You just don't know what benefit might have arisen. In senior management, when it comes to problem resolution, we always operate on the "never say no" and work through the pre-conditions, step by step, and it usually works towards a favourable outcome. And face to face changes things dramatically. I hardly ever contribute to this forum, as I cannot be bothered with the tedium, nor the pedantic and argumentative way many write. I am too busy to have that in my life But when I saw these to and fro posts, and understood who was who, and what was what, I felt I needed to say something about bringing the best out of each other, and not the worst. May God bless I see exactly what Review is talking about. Everyone's posts have a tone - including exe's posts. Review isn't talking about specific incidents in the past - but about a tone which was set by incidents in the past and continues in present day posts. It's like the negative incidents in the past (which no one outright denies), continue to define the tone of present day posts - and subsequently end up defining the poster. I think even Dennis would understand what I'm talking about here, he knows his posts sometimes sound a tone even he doesn't want them to sound.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 10:15:24 GMT -5
I will say it again. Most of you would never have the guts to say in person what you say on this board. Should that not tell you something. Why are you so mean and nasty to one and other. Is life not hard enough for all of us???
PLEASE STOP AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE POSTING!! YOUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN MAY ONE DAY BE READING YOUR POST.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 6, 2015 10:28:21 GMT -5
Exactly marie! Reading through bert's old lists I can't believe people actually posted those comments, especially the ones that directly contradict each other.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 10:54:06 GMT -5
Yes, by all means, blame ME! Don't give a hoot about anyone else's guilt or precipitating cause. THEY simply must not be made to look tainted in ANYway!
This is exactly the point that has tried to be made, over and over.
Wonderful clarity and justice in kangaroo courts. No wonder to me why Clearday, Edgar, and others have left this forum... No wonder at all..
Yes, KJ, you have the correct picture.
Thank you, Greg, pragmatic, dmg, Mary, slowtosee, and a host of others with a kind word, for there have been a few of them from many others. Perhaps even more of them than those who cannot admit to even possibly being in error, themselves as it is far easier to find just cause to blame me for the years of barnyard mess.
For any who feel my posts contribute to the lack of peace in this forum, well, it is time to just quit your posts contributing to that lack. Yes, I do find such "impartiality" disturbing. Admin, thank you for your most recent p.m. advising me of a need for me in this forum, asking me to remain. Everyone has Rational who believes his perception of the matter is without flaw. Well, again, I do not hold such perception.
Good bye, at least for now...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 11:26:11 GMT -5
Quote from Review00 Does a relationship with God have any correlation with intellect or absorption and understanding of academic and linguistic matters?
Has God planned that those with access and knowledge of such have an advantage over those that don't?
Would God allow an illiterate person to be disadvantaged in their relationship with and service to God because of their lack of access or understanding of Greek papyri found in the late 1800's and early 1900's in Egypt?
Hello Review005 I agree with what you're getting at. In my experience, more knowledge and intellect simply mean more intricate arguments for whatever belief they may have, whether that belief is right or wrong. I also find that the more intelligent and knowledgeable people to be more overbearing and superior in their attitudes, because they feel they just simply know better, whether they're actually right or wrong. Thanks for pointing out the importance of the Spirit. But, I'm just a stupid & unfortunate 2x2, so what do I know eh?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 6, 2015 11:39:03 GMT -5
Yes, by all means, blame ME! Don't give a hoot about anyone else's guilt or precipitating cause. THEY simply must not be made to look tainted in ANYway!
This is exactly the point that has tried to be made, over and over.
Wonderful clarity and justice in kangaroo courts. No wonder to me why Clearday, Edgar, and others have left this forum... No wonder at all..
Yes, KJ, you have the correct picture.
Thank you, Greg, pragmatic, dmg, Mary, slowtosee, and a host of others with a kind word, for there have been a few of them from many others. Perhaps even more of them than those who cannot admit to even possibly being in error, themselves as it is far easier to find just cause to blame me for the years of barnyard mess.
For any who feel my posts contribute to the lack of peace in this forum, well, it is time to just quit your posts contributing to that lack. Yes, I do find such "impartiality" disturbing. Admin, thank you for your most recent p.m. advising me of a need for me in this forum, asking me to remain. Everyone has Rational who believes his perception of the matter is without flaw. Well, again, I do not hold such perception.
Good bye, at least for now... I could sarcastically say the same "by all means blame me". And I am to blame, even though I am to blame for my part it's simply not honest to pretend everyone but me is to blame. That point too has been made over and over. Everyone is responsible for the tone and content of their own posts. People shouldn't act as if they can say whatever they want about others and then blame those others if they don't agree with what they are hearing. That calls into mind a Clearday quote; "slamming someone's face into their porridge and telling them to eat it to prove they like it". That is exactly what happens over and over to a lot the friends and workers who post here. It's why I have taken breaks, continuously hearing broad brush misrepresentations and lies (like what bert quotes) over and over and over and over gets to be too much to bear.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 12:01:55 GMT -5
I will say it again. Most of you would never have the guts to say in person what you say on this board. Should that not tell you something. Why are you so mean and nasty to one and other. Is life not hard enough for all of us??? PLEASE STOP AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE POSTING!! YOUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN MAY ONE DAY BE READING YOUR POST. Hi Marie, imo, forget about the children and grandchildren, what about God? Actually, I sort of like the unfettered comments, as apposed to the well considered or glib & crafty ones. One nice thing about the internet, and including forums like this, is that you have a chance of seeing really who people are, and yes, it's not always so pretty, as you otherwise might think (be deceived by?) when people are perhaps on better behavior, in person? So, I think I like, the perhaps, more honesty that comes out as is. Btw, I think that goes even more for those who prefer anonymity, though one hopes that will in time become open. One thing that's been helpful to me, is to consider, is this helpful? Not that I'm often very circumspect in this regard, but as is sometimes made fun of here about testimonies, ... and that is my desire.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 6, 2015 12:05:13 GMT -5
Exactly marie! Reading through bert's old lists I can't believe people actually posted those comments, especially the ones that directly contradict each other. . Any statement, taken out of context, can be made to say and imply just about anything. I think there are at least a few , statements in the Bible that read " there is no God ". Not saying all of berties list statements are out of context, but might help to understand. Alvin
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Post by rational on Jul 6, 2015 12:11:20 GMT -5
Everyone has Rational who believes his perception of the matter is without flaw. Well, again, I do not hold such perception. @dennisj, if you find that anything I have posted is incorrect or needs explanation feel free to address those points directly with me, either on this forum or by PM, rather than using vague innuendo with no factual data.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 10:34:58 GMT -5
ettu, I agree they should be very aware that God is watching also. God is a very sensitive subject on this board. Most don't want to acknowledge that we are all here because at one time they too, and some of us still do, believed in God.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 7, 2015 15:55:00 GMT -5
Quote - " I've seen Bert's list. As is per Bert's usual way, his list does NOT give any references as to who ever states those things. Bert just states his posts with NO references as to how authentic they are. Over & over again, Bert does that! He just seems to think that because HE, BERT, states something that we should take what he states as true! He will give no back up references at all." Dmmichgood, I used to have this "Weekly Quotes" thread.I would compile all the interesting ones and post them each week, with a prize for the best one. Took a lot of work, and it inflamed people. I was accused of " taking things out of context" which I didn't. No need to, really. When these were posted they had the author's name or alias attached. Later I stripped these when they were in my general register - no need for them. We understand the spirit by which they were written. BERT! I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ANY "WEEKLY QUOTES" FROM POSTS BY NAMES ON THIS TMB BOARD!
I am talking about outside references for some of the so-called statistics that you are always making such as: "Since coming on the TMB about 2005 the amount of sex acts per hour on Australian TV has doubled. And that's about the same for violence too."
Why do you think that we are so wet behind the ears that we would just take your word for such statistics?
(an aside: you are professing and I'm an atheist, yet you certainly seem to be watching a whole lot more TV than I do! And commercial TV at that)
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