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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 16:38:15 GMT -5
One reason Strong's (originally published 1890) is not considered totally reliable is that (although for me it is a wonderful work) it was compiled just before the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's that have so helped in translation of old Greek documents since then.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 10:09:43 GMT -5
Hey, "worker," so you do actually read at least some of what I express here! I am surprised, and pleased that you do!
What do you mean by: "and?"
Try as I might, or wish to, I cannot read your mind.
BTW, the more recent "tone" of your posts in my view have been downright pleasant. I cannot say the same for earlier ones. Some of them in my opinion coming from a "worker" were, to me, downright "shameful." However, I understand you have as much right to be you in your posts, as much as myself or anyone else.
You ARE aware many of us know who you really are, yes? Like others, it is revealed by you yourself alone, and casts a very sad shadow in my opinion, upon your "ministry." It reflects to me, very sadly to express, a rather high degree of "double-mindedness". Nonetheless, I prefer to believe these most recent posts of yours, which are neither flip, sarcastic, arrogant, nor autocratically antagonistic, reveal the birth of that "new spirit" to which I have referred recently. May it continue to show itself.
Wish I knew what you desired to know by your vague post of "and," however. So that will require clarification before it can be responded to, remember, I am just one of those dumb Americans! Huge sigh!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 11:58:05 GMT -5
Well, sir. It appears you have returned to your former sarcastic way of posting, and did not deserve the credit I extended to you. Shrug! However, If you cannot "get" the reason behind my comment regarding "strong's" work, I will gladly explain it to you.
Since the discovery of those ancient Koine Greek papyri, some (admittedly only a few, as I recall) of those Greek words have revealed themselves more clearly by their ussage to those studying them. If you need to know specifically which ones, are you not equally able now with this knowledge to discover that for yourself, especially since you consider me to "spew" such things out? Do you "get it" now?
Also, apparently you are going to be in this area shortly. Why don't you give me a call, 360 200 2829, and if we can, we will come get you, wherever that is, (and only you) to take you out for a cup of coffee. Then we can see for ourselves how "gracious" each other may be in person. Yes? No? What say you?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 14:59:46 GMT -5
"Worker," when Katie read your last post, she broke out laughing, because she has never met a "worker" and from your response to "our" invitation to you, she has absolutely no desire to meet with you, nor any other "worker" neither. Thanks, guy. So much for your "worker's" concern for those you think to be "lost." Now she understand's Ylva's position, saying no wonder she never wanted to go back!
Now then: yes, I can see where your lack of understanding might lie, for I began with one tense, and switched to another in mid-stream. I have changed it for all to see.
Surely you believe accuracy in understanding scripture is essential for anyone teaching it, anywhere, anytime. Illiterates, as you refer to them, are very easily led astray, surely by now you know that as well! Even those, like us, who are somewhere on that knowledge continuum need to constantly check ourselves for accuracy in what we believe true, lest we also be, or become, deceived. That is the value to me in such learning, even if not for you.
G'day, Sir. I see no reason to use the handle "review," for I see no justifiable reason for using it. But, surely, each to their own. I use my own real name, full I.D. where you use a very phony "nom d' plum." So be it. (By the way, the use of "sorry" in the manner you have just used it, actually means something more like, "that's (or, it's) tough for you," not the apologetic term "sorry!"
Yes, we shall go different ways, however that invitation was very genuine from us.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 12:05:22 GMT -5
Thank you, Alan, for your "like" comment on this simple post. I am thankful someone understood what was intended.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jun 29, 2015 19:51:47 GMT -5
Thank you, Alan, for your "like" comment on this simple post. I am thankful someone understood what was intended. Though I have yet to study Greek or Hebrew, I do seek to learn, generally through texts written by those who have both studied and personally engaged with the scriptural texts. I gain nothing from "study" that is undertaken to (dis)prove a point, or to persuade someone to take a particular decision, but I gain immensely from reading to deepen my own relationship and service to God, and I do find writers who strive to keep this subjective focus in their "theology."
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 29, 2015 21:27:22 GMT -5
Though I have yet to study Greek or Hebrew, I do seek to learn, generally through texts written by those who have both studied and personally engaged with the scriptural texts. I gain nothing from "study" that is undertaken to (dis)prove a point, or to persuade someone to take a particular decision, but I gain immensely from reading to deepen my own relationship and service to God, and I do find writers who strive to keep this subjective focus in their "theology." Has the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's helped people to deepen their relationship and service to God? Given them insight into spiritual matters that previously was not possible? Does a relationship with God have any correlation with intellect or absorption and understanding of academic and linguistic matters? Has God planned that those with access and knowledge of such have an advantage over those that don't? Would God allow an illiterate person to be disadvantaged in their relationship with and service to God because of their lack of access or understanding of Greek papyri found in the late 1800's and early 1900's in Egypt? So why is the Bible so important to you Review ? Do we need the Bible to have a relationship with God ?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jun 29, 2015 22:06:12 GMT -5
Though I have yet to study Greek or Hebrew, I do seek to learn, generally through texts written by those who have both studied and personally engaged with the scriptural texts. I gain nothing from "study" that is undertaken to (dis)prove a point, or to persuade someone to take a particular decision, but I gain immensely from reading to deepen my own relationship and service to God, and I do find writers who strive to keep this subjective focus in their "theology." Has the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's helped people to deepen their relationship and service to God? Given them insight into spiritual matters that previously was not possible? Does a relationship with God have any correlation with intellect or absorption and understanding of academic and linguistic matters? Has God planned that those with access and knowledge of such have an advantage over those that don't? Would God allow an illiterate person to be disadvantaged in their relationship with and service to God because of their lack of access or understanding of Greek papyri found in the late 1800's and early 1900's in Egypt? No, I don't feel that an illiterate person is disadvantaged one bit. Perhaps they even have an advantage because of their lack of dependence on an objective understanding. However - and I find my feelings expressed and guided here through Soren Kierkegaard (who strongly challenged "cultural Christianity") - if one does have the ability to inwardly reflect on and communicate their relationship to God, it would be sin to not do so. I am no Kierkegaard by any means, but I do thank God that I am able to read and to deepen my own faith. Humbled in knowing that I could never reflect to the degree of some, I am yet grateful to be able to understand, and feel it would be sin for me to not attempt to communicate - and maybe I have an ability to put things in simpler language - the insights that have opened doors for me. But the relationship with God is through faith, and no amount of objective, intellectual knowledge produces faith. But I do find that I also read things through the "lens" of my culture and upbringing - which has its merits and its blind spots - and sometimes insights others have gained do help to peel away some cultural conditioning. But advantage? The only advantage I know of in relation to God is obedience.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 22:14:29 GMT -5
Has the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's helped people to deepen their relationship and service to God? Given them insight into spiritual matters that previously was not possible? Does a relationship with God have any correlation with intellect or absorption and understanding of academic and linguistic matters? Has God planned that those with access and knowledge of such have an advantage over those that don't? Would God allow an illiterate person to be disadvantaged in their relationship with and service to God because of their lack of access or understanding of Greek papyri found in the late 1800's and early 1900's in Egypt? So why is the Bible so important to you Review ? Do we need the Bible to have a relationship with God ? nope, but its extremely helpful...
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 29, 2015 22:28:31 GMT -5
Has the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's helped people to deepen their relationship and service to God? Only those who studied them. For those who have studied them, yes. For those who have not studied them -- not possible. For those who don't believe anything but their understanding of the Bible -- lost cause. If knowing what the Bible says is critical -- absolutely. If knowing only what others tell you the Bible says is critical -- take a guess. If you want to be a fundamentalist -- then such access is meaningless. If you want to know what the Bible is about -- what advantage does an 8th grade reading level have over a research caliber reading level? You're asking what God would allow -- God will allow anything. But only "literate" people wrote the Bible.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 29, 2015 22:30:42 GMT -5
You mean a Greek Bible found in the late 1800s? That's not what they were finding in the 1800s. They were finding things written in Bible times -- before there was a Bible.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 29, 2015 22:35:05 GMT -5
So why is the Bible so important to you Review ? Do we need the Bible to have a relationship with God ? nope, but its extremely helpful...
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Yes, it could be helpful. It has to be better than that, Wally. Like every salesman, every book recommends itself. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf -- which also wasn't true unless you believed it. Any other witnesses to the same history???
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Post by withlove on Jun 29, 2015 22:41:50 GMT -5
Let's hope God doesn't judge us for not being bible scholars and reading every single thing we can get our hands on. But maybe we should try to read more? I could replace some of my other non-religious reading with more bible study. Increasing my understanding is an advantage for me, but not vs. other people. My concern is not knowing God's mind as much as I should. And other people may be able to be more frequently in a very deep spiritual closeness with Him than I. Knowing that, whatever I can do to strengthen my understanding and faith might be the saving difference for me down the road.
Probably dismissing is not the best choice, even if we don't take advantage of everything?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 29, 2015 23:05:00 GMT -5
- I'm not sure what that has to do with the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's
- I give up on you explaining the relevance of the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's to anyone seeking to follow Christ in 2015
- Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Review005, You try to negate the relevance Greek papyri & yet you quote Mat. 11:25
The oldest known manuscripts of Matthew and Mark are in Greek.
According to recent scholarship, Greek fragments of these two Gospels have been verified as dating from as early as the 60s A.D.
Some scholars have argued that these Gospels were originally written in Aramaic and later translated into Greek.
If that is the case, no extant copies or fragments of the Aramaic text have been found. The only evidence we have is that the original text of Matthew and Mark was in Greek.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 29, 2015 23:17:46 GMT -5
Bob W 'Credit where credit is due'; your obtuse response would have to be a candidate for obtuse post of the day! Well done!
review005,
You can't seem to post anything without belittling people!
"Obtuse? " "annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand stupid, slow-witted, slow, dull-witted, unintelligent, ignorant, simpleminded, witless."
You know I thought that I had already met the most hateful worker there ever was!
But she can't hold a candle to you!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 1:52:43 GMT -5
Bob W 'Credit where credit is due'; your obtuse response would have to be a candidate for obtuse post of the day! Well done!
review005,
You can't seem to post anything without belittling people!
"Obtuse? " "annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand stupid, slow-witted, slow, dull-witted, unintelligent, ignorant, simpleminded, witless."
You know I thought that I had already met the most hateful worker there ever was!
But she can't hold a candle to you!
Dmg: this fellow simply must behave as he does. I believe it is out of intense fear he may be wrong, knowing that if someone, anyone does prove him wrong, he will lose much honor and place. That would make him partially responsible, which is completely unacceptable for him. Actually, I pity him, and any of those like him. They have only the fruit of their labor to rely upon, as all the rest of us.
He cannot accept anyone's hand in friendship except sycophants, and that is only dependent upon his place among them. Rough spot to be in, especially when you are no longer anonymous... Poor fellow. Sits in honor on convention platforms, with all this on his conscience, and then has to even speak, knowing what he cannot dare to mention as true. If that isn't a rough spot to be in, what is? He has proven to Katie and myself, what and who he really is, and knows it, for all his blustering.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 30, 2015 2:27:33 GMT -5
Bob W 'Credit where credit is due'; your obtuse response would have to be a candidate for obtuse post of the day! Well done! That says more about you than about me.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 30, 2015 3:21:33 GMT -5
dmg, I have no idea of what relevance the information you have posted is, perhaps you'll be able to enlighten us by holding the candle that your favourite sister worker can no longer hold? Pray: tell us: What is the relevance and connection of the earliest known Greek fragments verified as dating from as early as the 60s A.D along with arguing scholars and aramaic extant copies that haven't been found with: Dennis's discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's and his not totally reliable Strongs concordance? Well, if you can't see the relevance & connection between the two, perhaps you should look in the mirror for the definition of someone who seems to be obtuse.
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Post by withlove on Jun 30, 2015 3:57:17 GMT -5
Is this thread a continuation of a point brought up in another thread? Am I missing a larger argument? A little confused about why Dennis' note about Strong's is bothering review. Surely it is relevant here among bible readers? Or review, do you just mean it should be on a different board within this forum? I found it to be interesting, as I have been thinking about buying my first copy of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:20:50 GMT -5
Posted on another thread but relevant here also. Peace perfect peace youtu.be/bJ4ofbkOY1wPhillip 4:7 May the peace of God which passeth all understanding, keep our hearts and minds through Christ.
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Post by Mary on Jun 30, 2015 15:02:50 GMT -5
Why not post it? What is wrong with the topic except that it exposes our own lack of education in these matters. I wonder why someone would find such a topic offensive. I value the early Bible translators and the findings of other Biblical papers over the years. I thank those Bible translators who translated the Bible for us. The newer versions are helping us with an even greater understanding in modern day English.
I have a Strongs concordance and so did my mother. A lot of professing homes did.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 30, 2015 15:03:23 GMT -5
Dennis' outpouring of kind and gracious, tender and peaceful words continue.....starting because I was foolish enough to ask him the point or relevance of the OP. Last post he includes an insightful and imaginative psychological analysis of me also! And what charm school did you go to?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 30, 2015 15:06:04 GMT -5
One reason Strong's (originally published 1890) is not considered totally reliable is that (although for me it is a wonderful work) it was compiled just before the discovery in Egypt of Greek papyri on the late 1800's and early 1900's that have so helped in translation of old Greek documents since then. What is the point or relevance of this OP? Is unreasonable, offensive or wrong to ask? Perhaps it is of relevance to a closeted ivory tower academic or theologian? Is that the point? But is it of any relevance to a plain ordinary person seeking to follow Jesus Christ? If the answer is yes then what is the relevance? I just gave you plenty of options. You pick the one for people who aren't going to believe anything you read in that arena. There's one there that suits you.
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Post by Mary on Jun 30, 2015 17:08:37 GMT -5
If the documents relating to the Bible are not important in helping us in our relationship with God, then I wonder why one would read the Bible. I think correct translations expose/ help our own inadequacy as humans to understand such a Great God. Man is ever learning. As I said many in meetings have a Strong's concordance to help with their study of the Bible. New learning and understanding shows up our own flaws or is it a case of ignorance is bliss meaning what we don't know we don't miss. Education never hurt any one.
You have not given your reason for objection for the OP. Why not correct inaccurate translations? Strong's is not the Bible, it is not infallible nor is man in their translation of the Bible.
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Post by Mary on Jun 30, 2015 17:53:35 GMT -5
The point shows me that Strong's has errors. Man is ever learning.
No it is not unreasonable or offensive to ask.
It is of relevance to all who are interested in such matters and I would say even more interesting to those who own Strong's concordances. Who are you referring to as closeted tower academic or theologian? Ok is this just another put down of the poster? If you are referring to Dennis who posted it, I think he is just a humble ex worker who has a gift and interest in languages. I am sure he does not feel that it adds to his salvation, just his understanding of the Bible and errors in Strong's.
It is relevant to those who have a Strong's concordance as many who seek to follow Christ have. Have you come across one in professing people's homes? Have you ever seen one?
You have not stated your objection to the OP apart from saying you do not object to it - your posts show otherwise.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 30, 2015 18:03:43 GMT -5
If the documents relating to the Bible are not important in helping us in our relationship with God, then I wonder why one would read the Bible. I think correct translations expose/ help our own inadequacy as humans to understand such a Great God. Man is ever learning. As I said many in meetings have a Strong's concordance to help with their study of the Bible. New learning and understanding shows up our own flaws or is it a case of ignorance is bliss meaning what we don't know we don't miss. Education never hurt any one. You have not given your reason for objection for the OP. Why not correct inaccurate translations? Strong's is not the Bible, it is not infallible nor is man in their translation of the Bible. True Mary, "Man is ever learning." (or at least should be) "Education never hurt any one." (It is only a problem when it exposes some ideas that aren't true, & that makes some people very uncomfortable) "Why not correct inaccurate translations?" (If we are honest we should welcome true translations)
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Post by Gene on Jun 30, 2015 19:02:43 GMT -5
Mary Why don't you fully answer the questions? You have avoided answered meaningfully especially these: But is it of any relevance to a plain ordinary person seeking to follow Jesus Christ?
If the answer is yes then what is the relevance?
If or once you have attended to those questions you might like to set out the errors in Strongs that are misleading Christians in the understanding of the Word of God. You seem to have got a bit of steam up over poor old Mr Strong and his concordance. What is your issue there? Sorry I can't follow that one. I also think that is very unpleasant and unkind of you to suggest that poor old Dennis might be residing in an ivory tower. Why did this unkind thought come to your mind and then get posted? Rather than getting distracted like that why don't you just simply clearly and concisely answered the questions asked. (if you can) Your questions are simple to answer, Review007: I can't speak to the ACTUAL answers, since I'm not Dennis, but if I had written the OP, here would be my answers to your questions: 1. What is the point or relevance of this OP? Those who have an interest in studying the origins of bible text may want to refer to Strong's. But they might want to refer to more recent guides as well, since Strong's was written just before the discovery of some ancient texts which has led to a more refined understanding of those languages. 2. Is unreasonable, offensive or wrong to ask? Not at all. But simply responding "and?" could be considered a rather curt and abrasive response, and a reasonable person could be excused for wondering at your intent. Take a phrase from Gene's Charm School Guide to Social Interactions and rephrase it like this: "That's a really interesting observation, Gene! Could you expand on that a bit? I'd especially be interested in your thoughts on how this might impact the average reader's understanding of the bible." See? That was easy, wasn't it? Take a lesson from yknot -- he's one of my best pupils. 3. Perhaps it is of relevance to a closeted ivory tower academic or theologian? Is that the point? Yes, I suppose it would be relevant to the academic or theologian. But that's not really who I had in mind--I suspect they don't need my input to know this. But it might be interesting to some on this board who use Strong's or are interested in exploring the bible in this way. 4. But is it of any relevance to a plain ordinary person seeking to follow Jesus Christ? Not relevant at all if they don't use Strong's and don't intend to. 5. If the answer is yes then what is the relevance? Not applicable, because the answer is no.
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Post by hberry on Jun 30, 2015 19:13:11 GMT -5
Gene, can you post a link to your Charm School's phrasebook? My cat thinks I could use a refresher course "A soft answer turneth away wrath" and all that.
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