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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2015 16:48:52 GMT -5
The reason I started the thread is that the 'cult' conversation has flared up again on TMB lately. If that hadn't happened this thread would not exist. The cult attack framework, in terms of these phoney lists and pseudo-science, have all been invented by the so-called Counter Cult Movement and includes carm.org and other attack sites. The Counter Cult Movement is just a front for forceful, right wing, mostly American, evangelicals who want to keep a good size moat around their religious beliefs. The problem with the pseudo-science is that it keeps people from discussing their actual problems in real terms. So I do agree with the idea that the conversation is a diversion. But it's not a diversion that was initiated by me. I agree. If you have been a member of a group for a number of years and now find yourself outside the group, classifying the group as a cult may provide a degree of comfort because, after all, it was a cult and you had been brainwashed. Not your fault, not your responsibility. Some of it is "a victim mentality", but the greater part is that people actually were hurt and calling the group a cult is a form of retaliation And there is also guilt. That is, you're not 100% sure if you were right to leave, or if God wanted you to leave, so seeing the theology as wrong, or the group as a cult, helps assuage that guilt. I certainly felt that way through our exit period. I was really concerned that God wanted me out, and that my place wasn't among the friends, and had to have that conviction before I would leave. In one way I was relieved that the workers made it so easy for me to decide; clarity is always a good thing. A couple of thoughts along that line: 1) God wants you to be happy, enthusiastic and to be in a position of using your gifts and talents. If you're not getting that opportunity, then you may not be in a church that is helping you to progress spiritually. But it might also be that you could "be the change you want to see". But often that is not the case: you can't be that change. 2) You have no obligation to worship God within a specific church or with one certain group of people. For example, if you have to drive an hour to gospel meeting and cannot afford the gas, then why shouldn't you go to a Bible class or prayer group from a different church that is just around the corner from your house. In fact, you're polluting the air and increasing global warming by driving all that distance. In a non-exclusive group no one would think twice if you made a decision on this basis. They'd see it as a good decision. My point is that you're not under any special obligation to just stay in one church. God can use you wherever you go, well, within reason.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2015 20:13:27 GMT -5
Some of it is "a victim mentality", but the greater part is that people actually were hurt and calling the group a cult is a form of retaliation And there is also guilt. That is, you're not 100% sure if you were right to leave, or if God wanted you to leave, so seeing the theology as wrong, or the group as a cult, helps assuage that guilt. I certainly felt that way through our exit period. I was really concerned that God wanted me out, and that my place wasn't among the friends, and had to have that conviction before I would leave. In one way I was relieved that the workers made it so easy for me to decide; clarity is always a good thing. A couple of thoughts along that line: 1) God wants you to be happy, enthusiastic and to be in a position of using your gifts and talents. If you're not getting that opportunity, then you may not be in a church that is helping you to progress spiritually. But it might also be that you could "be the change you want to see". But often that is not the case: you can't be that change. 2) You have no obligation to worship God within a specific church or with one certain group of people. For example, if you have to drive an hour to gospel meeting and cannot afford the gas, then why shouldn't you go to a Bible class or prayer group from a different church that is just around the corner from your house. In fact, you're polluting the air and increasing global warming by driving all that distance. In a non-exclusive group no one would think twice if you made a decision on this basis. They'd see it as a good decision. My point is that you're not under any special obligation to just stay in one church. God can use you wherever you go, well, within reason. ~~ The Spirit in the church around the corner meeting will NOT be the same as the 2x2 fellowship meetings.... If it was the same spirit as people believe I wouldn't have LEFT the church I was a member of and joined with the 2x2s group in 1978. If the friends can't afford the gas, they can catch rides from the other friends. There's a bigger picture here, is NOT about the long distance, or shortage of gas money but different Spirit in the meetings.... That's why we read many exes, go from one church to another because of the spirits and different teachings in these churches, which bring no peace or joy/contentment to their spirits.
If it was the SAME Spirit in the churches most of the friends wouldn't hesitate to attend the churches around the corner of their houses. If it was the same spirit in all of the churches then the early workers, and the friends wouldn't separate from their denomination churches to form/follow Jesus apostolic 2x2 group and apostolic ministry.
So if you don't sense the Spirit there, then don't go again. My point of view is that if people feel the Holy Spirit's presence I take them at their word, even if it doesn't work for me. 1 John 4 speaks of testing the Spirits, and gives us a test, "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God". Contrasting with that is Matthew 7:21. Here is the difference. 1 John 4 is a guide for us. If someone is faking it though, as in Matthew 7:21, that's between them and God. I'll take people at their word unless I have reason to think otherwise. I think your policy is limiting yourself to not seeing God at work everywhere He does work.
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Post by Lee on Jun 25, 2015 20:26:28 GMT -5
Both of you miss the point. The fellowship isn't just imperfect, it is largely antithetical to everything God is communicating to us through Jesus, in particular the futility of our supposing we can procure eternal life through our works. All of this rant and raving about what is and what isn't a cult is a diversion, a favorite one of WhatHats. It shouldn't surprise any of us if individuals and organizations exhibit the tell-tale signs of a cult. We are all irrational and partial, it is the human condition. This prognosis, however, is not the conclusion of the matter. In Christ we can put to death our flesh and continue to perceive the resurrected Christ, who shares freely with all. The reason I started the thread is that the 'cult' conversation has flared up again on TMB lately. If that hadn't happened this thread would not exist. The cult attack framework, in terms of these phoney lists and pseudo-science, have all been invented by the so-called Counter Cult Movement and includes carm.org and other attack sites. The Counter Cult Movement is just a front for forceful, right wing, mostly American, evangelicals who want to keep a good size moat around their religious beliefs. The problem with the pseudo-science is that it keeps people from discussing their actual problems in real terms. So I do agree with the idea that the conversation is a diversion. But it's not a diversion that was initiated by me. Quite a number of 2x2's could pass as right-wing, evangelicals in terms of their religion and politics. No doubt the motives vary, but I don't see the conspiracy you do in anti-cult sites. Asking generic questions about the power structure of ones immediate community is highly useful to understanding its dynamics. It might mean the desacralizing of one's religion, but the alternative of protecting power structures that act complicity with personal injury is worse.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jun 25, 2015 21:57:07 GMT -5
I agree. If you have been a member of a group for a number of years and now find yourself outside the group, classifying the group as a cult may provide a degree of comfort because, after all, it was a cult and you had been brainwashed. Not your fault, not your responsibility. Some of it is "a victim mentality", but the greater part is that people actually were hurt and calling the group a cult is a form of retaliation That's what I see in some of the exit letters. Like the "manufactured conflict" we discussed a while back. If you get turned off by the name calling and insults then you are called "hard hearted". Makes me wonder - is it a soft heart that writes an exit letter that's full of broad brush name calling and insults?
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2015 23:33:23 GMT -5
The reason I started the thread is that the 'cult' conversation has flared up again on TMB lately. If that hadn't happened this thread would not exist. The cult attack framework, in terms of these phoney lists and pseudo-science, have all been invented by the so-called Counter Cult Movement and includes carm.org and other attack sites. The Counter Cult Movement is just a front for forceful, right wing, mostly American, evangelicals who want to keep a good size moat around their religious beliefs. The problem with the pseudo-science is that it keeps people from discussing their actual problems in real terms. So I do agree with the idea that the conversation is a diversion. But it's not a diversion that was initiated by me. Quite a number of 2x2's could pass as right-wing, evangelicals in terms of their religion and politics. No doubt the motives vary, but I don't see the conspiracy you do in anti-cult sites. Asking generic questions about the power structure of ones immediate community is highly useful to understanding its dynamics. It might mean the desacralizing of one's religion, but the alternative of protecting power structures that act complicity with personal injury is worse. There is no conspiracy. Read up on the 'counter cult movement' and 'anti cult movement'. Figure out who runs carm.org and gotquestions.org. It's not a secret.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 5:24:39 GMT -5
That's what I see in some of the exit letters. Like the "manufactured conflict" we discussed a while back. If you get turned off by the name calling and insults then you are called "hard hearted". Makes me wonder - is it a soft heart that writes an exit letter that's full of broad brush name calling and insults? Quite a generalised statement about exit letters I would have thought.... I didn't write one but I've hundreds if not thousands over the years. The vast majority are not full of broad brush name calling and insults. I'm struggling to think of one that fits into that category. Most state the gospel, what they believe and that they have nothing against the people in the church. If what they believe clashes with your beliefs it's hardly broad brush name calling and insults - it may be insulting to you but that's a different thing. Come on now, being called a Pharisee is quite as low as you can go in the NT firmament. They don't need to be insulting but many are.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 5:29:05 GMT -5
And MOST of the friends have decided NOT to join BSF or other churches because the Holy Spirit will point them to follow Jesus. The Holy Spirit will be their TEACHER if the workers don't do their parts of teaching. John wrote about this in I John 2:24-27 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
Nate, I don't think its a matter of joining BSF or other churches. There are plenty of friends that will participate in BSF, go to a church service, listen to a Christian minister's sermon on the internet. Wherever they hear the words of God spoken and discussed faithfully they will be pointed to Jesus. God doesn't just work through the workers. He works through thousands of Christian ministers around the world, through BSF, through Christian missionaries and workers, through Christian radio stations etc What is a BSF?
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Post by blacksheep on Jun 26, 2015 6:14:26 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Jun 26, 2015 6:33:28 GMT -5
Some would say Bible Study Fellowship (BSF) is a cult and there seems to be plenty of disgruntled members and ex-members.
Here's one...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 6:40:43 GMT -5
Some of it is "a victim mentality", but the greater part is that people actually were hurt and calling the group a cult is a form of retaliation That's what I see in some of the exit letters. Like the "manufactured conflict" we discussed a while back. If you get turned off by the name calling and insults then you are called "hard hearted". Makes me wonder - is it a soft heart that writes an exit letter that's full of broad brush name calling and insults? Or is part of it something to do with " sour grapes?" Just wondering.
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Post by Lee on Jun 26, 2015 6:57:15 GMT -5
Quite a number of 2x2's could pass as right-wing, evangelicals in terms of their religion and politics. No doubt the motives vary, but I don't see the conspiracy you do in anti-cult sites. Asking generic questions about the power structure of ones immediate community is highly useful to understanding its dynamics. It might mean the desacralizing of one's religion, but the alternative of protecting power structures that act complicity with personal injury is worse. There is no conspiracy. Read up on the 'counter cult movement' and 'anti cult movement'. Figure out who runs carm.org and gotquestions.org. It's not a secret. That's two sites. Is there not a generic sense in which one can ask questions to assess the power dynamics of the organization one belongs to?
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Post by rational on Jun 26, 2015 7:35:10 GMT -5
Some would say Bible Study Fellowship (BSF) is a cult and there seems to be plenty of disgruntled members and ex-members. Here's one... This certainly sounds like a person with some socialization issues that are being blamed on the organization. What is it about this group that has the slightest indication that it is a cult? I am guessing that no matter which group she is placed with it will not be the correct one. She complains she is excluded, people invite he to join, she declines because she doubts their sincerity, and then complains because she is alone. People provide her with transportation and she considers them inconsiderate. These do not seem to be issues with BSF.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jun 26, 2015 8:58:06 GMT -5
That's what I see in some of the exit letters. Like the "manufactured conflict" we discussed a while back. If you get turned off by the name calling and insults then you are called "hard hearted". Makes me wonder - is it a soft heart that writes an exit letter that's full of broad brush name calling and insults? Or is part of it something to do with " sour grapes?" Just wondering. I've watched a few leave where I work for other employment and very rarely do they choose to burn the bridge when they do. That doesn't mean there isn't sour grapes or worse - it is that they realize there is really no advantage for them to broad brush insult and rant and rave about all they perceived to be wrong with the job they are leaving. It feels good to "tell it like it is" (like you think it is) but is it really to your own advantage to do so? Is it the truly honest thing to do? Not if doing so harms your own self interests. Everyone who thinks "tough love" and "telling it like ( I think) it is" is a virtue should read this -->> Honesty versus Brutal Frankness With exit letters it's like what said - they are hurting and so they retaliate; "I'm going to make it hurt for you too, I'm going to call you names and pronounce opinionated statements about your fellowship as if they are universal truth, if you don't agree, my, my, you have a hard heart!" I could easily find many examples in actual exit letters. Many exit letters I've read fit exactly with what Bert said about quoting sermons - just insert the words "their exit letters" in place of "our notes". Another thing to notice is the people who protest and squawk the most whenever someone brings up the issues of type III apostate narratives are usually the ones who do it, or have done it - either in an exit letter, or they published a book, or they use that kind of narrative here. Its pretty plain to see.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 11:46:03 GMT -5
What Hat, thank you for your response. I do understand what you said. I do not consider "Truth" a cult.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 16:33:42 GMT -5
There is no conspiracy. Read up on the 'counter cult movement' and 'anti cult movement'. Figure out who runs carm.org and gotquestions.org. It's not a secret. That's two sites. Is there not a generic sense in which one can ask questions to assess the power dynamics of the organization one belongs to? Here you go. Generic. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_countercult_movementThe Christian countercult movement is a social movement of certain Protestant evangelical and fundamentalist[1] and other Christian ministries ("discernment ministries"[2]) and individual activists who oppose religious sects they consider "cults".[3]
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 16:38:32 GMT -5
What Hat, thank you for your response. I do understand what you said. I do not consider "Truth" a cult. Yes, I did get that up front, and appreciate that. I appreciate also that there are problems and hurt out there, and while I do defend the friends it's not my intention to try to suppress people expressing their negative experiences.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 16:48:03 GMT -5
Nate - you are a crack-up... Nope, I am just sharing my experiences.It's great to know you are completely exclusive - according to your gospel only the Holy Spirit attends 2x2 meetings and no other church gathering. ~~ I believe and know there are god fearing people searching for Truth in Jesus out there like myself before I was lead to the workers.Now if one of the ex-members said that the HS wasn't in any of the lives of the F&W nor was ever present in any 2x2 meetings we'd have pages of criticism. ~~ Well, they are entitled to their opinion. We know whether the Spirit in our lives or NOT.As an ex 2x2 member who mainly goes to the one church every week (but is very happy to go to any Christian church) I have great peace, joy and contentment in my life. That's good you found a church which you have peace and contentment in life so do I.Much more than I ever had in the 2x2 church. But I'd never suggest that the friends didn't have the HS in their lives or the HS wasn't present in their meetings. Thanks. You and I can share our own experiences and let the readers make up their own minds.Can I suggest to you that most 2x2's don't attend other Christian churches because they've been told for a lifetime that they are false, evil, after your money, they have the wrong spirit etc Yes, those things are TRUE in many churches, I didn't say ALL of them.Thankfully, there are an increasing number of 2x2 folk who attend BSF or another Christian church because they are not brainwashed to believe all the lies and folklore that get's trotted out... I don't believe too MANY hearty friends will attend any BSF Bible study or another Christian church to get fed for their souls. If they truly and seriously study the word of God on their own and with the help of the Holy Spirit, He will reveal God's truth to them by revelation. God wants us to draw near to Him in reading, praying and asking His Spirit to be our TEACHER. The workers can teach us so much and do so much for us. They don't know or have all the answers but the Holy Spirit does, He will give us His mind and understanding on doctrines, issues. Be led of the Spirit. When all of us LED by the Spirit of God then there is true UNITY, Harmony of hearts, minds and spirits.Nathan, I appreciate your honest opinion, and actually have quite a bit of empathy for it. My own experience in mainline churches was one of extreme dissatisfaction: too much hypocrisy and too much just a form. When my wife and I wanted to re-learn about God and worship around 35 years ago, we did "test" the churches for a year or two before encountering the friends. We found there what we couldn't find anywhere else. And I appreciate also from hearing testimonies over the years, that many friends were like us, not really feeling at home in any other church. In the end though I found the position that the friends were saved, and others not, untenable for quite a few reasons. The short of it is that while I still don't feel at home, say, in a Pentecostal church, I'd never think that if someone confesses the Christ, that I would judge the person just because I'm not comfortable in their church. The test of the Spirit is two things: 1) do they confess the Christ?, 2) is it an honest confession? and related to that do they bring forth fruit? It's not whether or not I feel comfortable worshiping in their church. The story of how I came to that line of thinking is a long one so I'll skip it for now. It is unfortunate that workers and friends feel that is a threatening position for someone to take, because I don't think that they need to be.
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Post by magpie on Jun 26, 2015 16:59:49 GMT -5
Exclusivsm is a CULT. .Go to "worker friend and ex board" site and read the "Letter of Concern",a judgement written by "Leroy Lerwick". Read "ALL" the following comments as one put it He has in his own words condemned "Seven Billion to Hell" . A judgemental ignorant teaching as it's founder William Irvine. Compassionless selfrightousness. Do you support such as Leroy's letter,if you do you are supporting condemning "Seven Billion" to an eternity in "Hell",you are then of the judgemental "Secret Sect",Christian Conventions (as registered here),"CULT".
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Post by Mary on Jun 26, 2015 19:37:52 GMT -5
WhatHat wrote: And I appreciate also from hearing testimonies over the years, that many friends were like us, not really feeling at home in any other church.
What, the majority of the friends have never had any thing to do with other churches. They were born and raised in the fellowship.
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Post by Mary on Jun 26, 2015 20:07:33 GMT -5
WhatHat wrote: Here are a number of reasons I jotted down the other day.
1) Harmful cults like FLDS, Waco and others are always led by a single, charismatic leader. The friends are led by a large group of workers and elders. There is a hierarchy, but every organisation has one.
The workers weld a lot of power over the friends. Head workers hire and fire. They are led by single leaders - head workers or overseers as they are called in some parts. The group is not lead by elders. Elders only take the Sunday morning meeting. They have no power more than a lay member.
2) They don't take a large portion of their members' financial resources as do Scientology and some other groups, in fact, the church runs on much lower overhead than almost any denomination. You actually don't have to give any money to the organisation to belong.
I do not agree that their church is run on much lower overhead than almost any denomination. They hire buildings which is a weekly cost. Churches pay for their buildings which gets paid off and as we know buying works out cheaper than present day rent. My thought is that they rent because they have so few members that the only way they can go to different areas is to rent. I would think that more money goes into convention grounds and holding conventions than it would to maintain a church building. Also the cost of workers traveling and what they spend money on would amount to a lot. A building they can pay off and supporting a pastor is cheaper than paying at market rents.
3) Any member can exit at any time. There is no routine or widespread practice of shunning as is practiced by Amish or Mennonites. There is no doctrine-based shunning.
There is shunning as many have experienced and there is emotional shunning in families in which people say professing family members make those who have left meetings feel like outsiders. The shunning is not as extreme as in Amish or Mennonites but does it have to as extreme as that to be called shunning. There is emotional shunning and some of that is related to calling those who have left names like bitter, unwilling etc. Many people do not leave because they do not want to be ostracised from family. People do not feel they are free to leave with many people expressing that they are bound emotionally in the group or for fear of a number of things. They have ben programmed against the big bad world outside of the group. Many are afraid to go to another church because they have been programmed against them. They find they cannot fit into society. Many people do not feel they are free to exit due to the hold the group has over members and families in the group.
4) Differences from the background culture are based on longstanding Biblical beliefs, and are not calculated purely to isolate people.
The workers use their beliefs that isolate people. i.e. ministry, church in the home etc. I consider their attempt to copy something that occurred in Israel 2,000 years ago is so far from reality and truth. Living in those counties even in todays society and you will feel an alien. We were not meant to copy a ministry. Christ within is our hope of Glory. Not putting faith in a ministry to save us and say others are lost because they do not do this. If the sermon by LL on here was not meant to isolate them from others then what is? .
5) The friends do not isolate themselves from society, attending public schools, and working in and running regular businesses.
They isolate themselves by believing they are different. They are physically active in these areas but emotionally isolate themselves. We were clearly told that we must be misfits - so at school that helped me accept that I was different from my peers when I was seen as different - inferior. They isolate themselves due to not being allowed to get involved in sport, not allowed to go to movies, etc. (Some of these things have changed over the years but the workers do not like it. See the sermon on here recently).
6) Their values are caring and reasonable. They don't have any unusual practices in terms of imbibing drugs, refusing blood transfusions or sexual impropriety.
You give the extreme here. You compare the group with extreme groups. They have unusual practices in dress, hair, no TV etc.
7) Many of their beliefs are constructive to mental and physical health. No drinking, no smoking, concern for proper diet and exercise. Their members tend to be long-lived.
Concern for proper diet and exercise. That is new to me. They are no more diet or exercise conscious than any one else. There are plenty of overweight people in the group. How many people in meetings go to the gym for example? Would you ever see a worker at a gym or doing exercises? As has been discussed her before many suffer mental health problems.
8) There are cases of non-conforming members being ill-treated, and there have been victims of social cliquishness. However, those cases are not distinguishable in character from 'victims' in any church setting or social group.
Where there are people there are victims. There is more freedom in other church settings. People are not kicked out in other groups because of having a TV, and other man made rules of which other churches do not have. Many people have been kicked out of meetings over things which would not even be an issue in other social groups.
9) There are no cases of former members or members being physically threatened or coming to harm, unlike truly malevolent cults.
Again you have used extreme cults as a measure.
10) Members of the group are constructive members of society: business leaders, teachers, nurses, doctors, engineers, accountants, homebuilders and any profession you can care to name.
This has not always been. Education was preached against. Going to university was the world. Today things have changed for the better, not the worse as was taught in the past.
There are always exceptions to every rule. This is my honest impression of 99% of the 100,000 plus members of the church.
You have written an article on things that do happen in the church. The fact that these things do not or have not occurred is the exception. The rule is that many instances the things you stated do occur. Are those who have left part of the 100,000 plus members you talk about - or is it that once they leave (many because of the things you listed) their experiences are no longer valid? My honest impression and conversations with what we see and hear many of the things you have written do occur
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Post by Lee on Jun 26, 2015 20:26:00 GMT -5
That's two sites. Is there not a generic sense in which one can ask questions to assess the power dynamics of the organization one belongs to? Here you go. Generic. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_countercult_movementThe Christian countercult movement is a social movement of certain Protestant evangelical and fundamentalist[1] and other Christian ministries ("discernment ministries"[2]) and individual activists who oppose religious sects they consider "cults".[3] I don't understand your response. My position is that the counter cult movement offers a useful criteria to determine a cult, or what is cult-like, irrespective of their religious persuasion or bias.
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Post by maggsmagpie on Jun 26, 2015 21:03:18 GMT -5
When head workers cease to be dictators and they are elected democratically with transparency then your first number might be right. It was excommunication by a head worker that lead to my family leaving 2x2ism simply for standing up to him which was not easy at the time but today I am so glad it happened because 2x2ism is just another cult. maqggsmagpie
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 21:06:06 GMT -5
Exclusivsm is a CULT. .Go to "worker friend and ex board" site and read the "Letter of Concern",a judgement written by "Leroy Lerwick". Read "ALL" the following comments as one put it He has in his own words condemned "Seven Billion to Hell" . A judgemental ignorant teaching as it's founder William Irvine. Compassionless selfrightousness. Do you support such as Leroy's letter,if you do you are supporting condemning "Seven Billion" to an eternity in "Hell",you are then of the judgemental "Secret Sect",Christian Conventions (as registered here),"CULT". The letter is on this board and I've read it. Surely you're not saying the friends are worse because by their theology 7 billion would go to Hell, whereas by most Christian standards it's only 5 billion.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 21:08:12 GMT -5
WhatHat wrote: And I appreciate also from hearing testimonies over the years, that many friends were like us, not really feeling at home in any other church. What, the majority of the friends have never had any thing to do with other churches. They were born and raised in the fellowship. They all started outside at some point. And children of the third and fourth generation will re-tell the testimony of their forefathers (and mothers).
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 21:12:47 GMT -5
WhatHat wrote: Here are a number of reasons I jotted down the other day. 1) Harmful cults like FLDS, Waco and others are always led by a single, charismatic leader. The friends are led by a large group of workers and elders. There is a hierarchy, but every organisation has one. The workers weld a lot of power over the friends. Head workers hire and fire. They are led by single leaders - head workers or overseers as they are called in some parts. The group is not lead by elders. Elders only take the Sunday morning meeting. They have no power more than a lay member. 2) They don't take a large portion of their members' financial resources as do Scientology and some other groups, in fact, the church runs on much lower overhead than almost any denomination. You actually don't have to give any money to the organisation to belong. I do not agree that their church is run on much lower overhead than almost any denomination. They hire buildings which is a weekly cost. Churches pay for their buildings which gets paid off and as we know buying works out cheaper than present day rent. My thought is that they rent because they have so few members that the only way they can go to different areas is to rent. I would think that more money goes into convention grounds and holding conventions than it would to maintain a church building. Also the cost of workers traveling and what they spend money on would amount to a lot. A building they can pay off and supporting a pastor is cheaper than paying at market rents. 3) Any member can exit at any time. There is no routine or widespread practice of shunning as is practiced by Amish or Mennonites. There is no doctrine-based shunning. There is shunning as many have experienced and there is emotional shunning in families in which people say professing family members make those who have left meetings feel like outsiders. The shunning is not as extreme as in Amish or Mennonites but does it have to as extreme as that to be called shunning. There is emotional shunning and some of that is related to calling those who have left names like bitter, unwilling etc. Many people do not leave because they do not want to be ostracised from family. People do not feel they are free to leave with many people expressing that they are bound emotionally in the group or for fear of a number of things. They have ben programmed against the big bad world outside of the group. Many are afraid to go to another church because they have been programmed against them. They find they cannot fit into society. Many people do not feel they are free to exit due to the hold the group has over members and families in the group. 4) Differences from the background culture are based on longstanding Biblical beliefs, and are not calculated purely to isolate people. The workers use their beliefs that isolate people. i.e. ministry, church in the home etc. I consider their attempt to copy something that occurred in Israel 2,000 years ago is so far from reality and truth. Living in those counties even in todays society and you will feel an alien. We were not meant to copy a ministry. Christ within is our hope of Glory. Not putting faith in a ministry to save us and say others are lost because they do not do this. If the sermon by LL on here was not meant to isolate them from others then what is? . 5) The friends do not isolate themselves from society, attending public schools, and working in and running regular businesses. They isolate themselves by believing they are different. They are physically active in these areas but emotionally isolate themselves. We were clearly told that we must be misfits - so at school that helped me accept that I was different from my peers when I was seen as different - inferior. They isolate themselves due to not being allowed to get involved in sport, not allowed to go to movies, etc. (Some of these things have changed over the years but the workers do not like it. See the sermon on here recently). 6) Their values are caring and reasonable. They don't have any unusual practices in terms of imbibing drugs, refusing blood transfusions or sexual impropriety. You give the extreme here. You compare the group with extreme groups. They have unusual practices in dress, hair, no TV etc. 7) Many of their beliefs are constructive to mental and physical health. No drinking, no smoking, concern for proper diet and exercise. Their members tend to be long-lived. Concern for proper diet and exercise. That is new to me. They are no more diet or exercise conscious than any one else. There are plenty of overweight people in the group. How many people in meetings go to the gym for example? Would you ever see a worker at a gym or doing exercises? As has been discussed her before many suffer mental health problems.
8) There are cases of non-conforming members being ill-treated, and there have been victims of social cliquishness. However, those cases are not distinguishable in character from 'victims' in any church setting or social group. Where there are people there are victims. There is more freedom in other church settings. People are not kicked out in other groups because of having a TV, and other man made rules of which other churches do not have. Many people have been kicked out of meetings over things which would not even be an issue in other social groups. 9) There are no cases of former members or members being physically threatened or coming to harm, unlike truly malevolent cults. Again you have used extreme cults as a measure. 10) Members of the group are constructive members of society: business leaders, teachers, nurses, doctors, engineers, accountants, homebuilders and any profession you can care to name. This has not always been. Education was preached against. Going to university was the world. Today things have changed for the better, not the worse as was taught in the past. There are always exceptions to every rule. This is my honest impression of 99% of the 100,000 plus members of the church. You have written an article on things that do happen in the church. The fact that these things do not or have not occurred is the exception. The rule is that many instances the things you stated do occur. Are those who have left part of the 100,000 plus members you talk about - or is it that once they leave (many because of the things you listed) their experiences are no longer valid? My honest impression and conversations with what we see and hear many of the things you have written do occur Mary, of course I am comparing to extreme groups and extreme situations. That's what a cult is, extreme. As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion. The things you dislike, other people like. Points on shunning and the like, I've already covered.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 21:15:05 GMT -5
Here you go. Generic. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_countercult_movementThe Christian countercult movement is a social movement of certain Protestant evangelical and fundamentalist[1] and other Christian ministries ("discernment ministries"[2]) and individual activists who oppose religious sects they consider "cults".[3] I don't understand your response. My position is that the counter cult movement offers a useful criteria to determine a cult, or what is cult-like, irrespective of their religious persuasion or bias. Right, so you're not prepared to use your own dictum, "to ask questions to assess the power dynamics of the organization", why would you expect anyone else to?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 21:17:54 GMT -5
Whathat, it is rather hard for me to understand why you ever left the group, or why you do not return and reprofess. In fact, it is amazing to me that you have left and have not returned, but then how does anyone know for sure? (Shrug.)
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Post by What Hat on Jun 26, 2015 21:18:46 GMT -5
When head workers cease to be dictators and they are elected democratically with transparency then your first number might be right. It was excommunication by a head worker that lead to my family leaving 2x2ism simply for standing up to him which was not easy at the time but today I am so glad it happened because 2x2ism is just another cult. maqggsmagpie Gee, what church has democratically elected ministers? Not one that I know of. They mostly go to school for that, don't they? Which part of #1 is wrong? 1) Harmful cults like FLDS, Waco and others are always led by a single, charismatic leader. The friends are led by a large group of workers and elders. There is a hierarchy, but every organisation has one.
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