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Post by snow on Jun 2, 2015 18:14:12 GMT -5
I thought it might be okay to just get this thread out there and see how it goes. I will start it and bow out from posting here. Marie asked for a board where things could be discussed, the power of prayer etc. without people challenging that from a non believer standpoint. So here it is. I can't speak for other non believers, but I will not be responding on here anymore unless there is a question asked of me directly. Enjoy!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 19:28:08 GMT -5
Thank you, snow. Since I believe in my God as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, that by definition must make me a Theist, though not a denomination defender of any sort.
Thank you, too, Marie!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 12:07:51 GMT -5
A difficulty presenting itself to me is the dogmatism that results from attempts like this. For myself, I attempt to be dogmatic only about the one who was called Yahu'shuah, (meaning God-Savior.)
That One was very concerned about who those accompanying (following) Him, thought Him to be. So, I make every effort to comprehend who that is. Not for others to accept, rather, for myself to understand. Over the years, for myself, that understanding has grown. It is not dependent upon what and how others think, believe or understand, rather what ach individual is able to comprehend and live by.
There are other things about which He was concerned. In each case, it is my personal conviction understanding, comprehension will come in much the same way. For myself, I rather enjoy the tradition that early believers chose a symbol belonging to something so remote to draw in the sand, a simple curve, which when completed by another, placed focus upon such a Being. In instance upon instance, insistence upon various dogma(s?) have/has resulted in division which has brought separation rather than "oneness."
If I understand the "Fruit of the Spirit" to be singular rather than "Fruits" plural, such comprehension opens avenues of understanding and thought otherwise closed to me. I personally enjoy the concept of one delicious fruit containing all of those grand qualities described. This type of thinking has opened avenues of comprehension, understanding, thought, seemingly closed for others, regarding numerous other topics, none of which then become that which is dogmatic for me.
So, rather than become divisive for me, such manner of thought creates a means of "oneness" which, personally, I believe was Yahu'shuah's intention.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 9:38:16 GMT -5
I have a struggle I have never seen addressed on the TMB. I miss fellowship. I have not been able to allow myself to go to another church. I have had study and fellowship with other believers in my home. How have others filled this void in their lives after leaving meeting. I have a fear of being treated the same way the workers and friends have treated my family. I am not exclusive. I believe God deals with hearts not buildings. The word religion gives me the chills.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 10:34:27 GMT -5
Marie, it is easy for me to understand your quandary. Some of us often taught in buildings of various sorts, including church oriented ones. Being forbidden to attend "the original church of my choice" and forced into living as an "outcast," I was left with no alternative but to re-evaluate my previously held beliefs, concluding I am to worship my God with other believers welcoming me do do so.
Strangely, this has even opened various doors of service, from leading Bible studies, or assisting in doing so, to being asked to speak to congregations. Most recently I have been asked to teach children in a public service, much as I once did as a "worker." None of these experiences have resulted in "opposition" of any sort, rather encouragement by pastors and congregations to continue to do so.
This is not because I am a "wonderful" person, I simply know I am not and that none will ever listen to words I might be led to express because of my "personality." So why then? Pondering this, the conclusion has come it is because of a sincere love for others, be they children or adults, and a desire to point everyone to my Absolute. For me, this simply cannot be "faked." Can anyone "act" sincere? Surely sincerity cannot be enacted. Whether right or wrong, to me sincerity is genuine.
Your expression to this thread comes across to me as sincere as any posting here. Thank you. My own advice to you or anyone like you? Continue to trust in our Absolute, accompanying "Him" wherever you are led, looking forward to His return. You, with many of us, will find "fellowship" along the way. Wishing you the best...
DJ
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 17:26:29 GMT -5
In teaching Titus to pastor the church, it is clear to me that the Holy Spirit led him to teach Titus that in many issues, Titus was to teach the "older women" to teach the younger women. Among the topics, as I read his writings were regarding home making, child raising, sobriety, modesty, and more.
When attempting to be teachable as Titus, (and Timothy) there was the greatest desire to be as they, learning from Peter, and Paul as well as those closest like them I knew alive in my day. If this is no longer the case today among those seeking to fill the shoes of men like Titus (and Timothy) then, quite obviously and naturally nothing I might express will appear to them to apply to themselves.
In my case, when I left that "work" I was not defrocked, nor "kicked out of it" rather begged by 4 different overseers to return to it. Thus, in MY heart, I was not, have not,and never will be "un-anointed" to perform the calling from my God as He has revealed it to me. Those of another Spirit will sadly circle their wagons of self-justfication. Others, not of that "spirit" quite likely will continue to respect many more years than their own in dedicated service of and in His anointing.
This has led me to comprehend why Paul wrote certain things as he did, regarding those of HIS day preaching a gospel of contention, thinking to add to HIS burden. What was Paul's response? Smile, well kind of like Nathan's in this forum, "let the readers decide!" and I perceive them doing that, then and now.
Now, I do not need to be posting here, continuing to do so by public and pm requests that I am making every attempt to honor. Paul wished peace upon those reading his words. Who would dare to come right out and assert it is presumptuous of a 72 year old man who has given his very best to the Lord, in physical strength, health, emotions and spirit, to want to emulate him? Do I often fail? Yes. Does that mean to quit trying? I think not, though the enemy of my soul and his children might wish it so.
Peace to all who read this.
DennisJ
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Post by bubbles on Jun 6, 2015 5:53:08 GMT -5
I have a struggle I have never seen addressed on the TMB. I miss fellowship. I have not been able to allow myself to go to another church. I have had study and fellowship with other believers in my home. How have others filled this void in their lives after leaving meeting. I have a fear of being treated the same way the workers and friends have treated my family. I am not exclusive. I believe God deals with hearts not buildings. The word religion gives me the chills. It takes time to get to know other christians and feel comfortable with them after leaving meetings. I was very timid. Over time I realised there was far more than I had ever been exposed too about loving and serving the lord. As I grew in intimacy and relationship fellowship with other christians became very important part of my life. Often it was around the table after church ev ery week. Sometimes in a cafe/ on a beach / anywhere where 2 or more were gathered. My house was like Paddington Station and often would go well into the night til 2am sometimes.
These days its mostly by phone. Occassionaly face to face. When it is face to face it is animated serious passionate intense or serene calm peaceful joyous love abundant dialogue about the goodness of god where he has taken us where we think we are heading and how he directs our steps. We laugh we cry we debate we reason we agree and support each other.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2015 12:52:39 GMT -5
I have a struggle I have never seen addressed on the TMB. I miss fellowship. I have not been able to allow myself to go to another church. I have had study and fellowship with other believers in my home. How have others filled this void in their lives after leaving meeting. I have a fear of being treated the same way the workers and friends have treated my family. I am not exclusive. I believe God deals with hearts not buildings. The word religion gives me the chills. I've left the truth 3 different times but the Lord called me back maybe he is calling you back now...
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Post by Mary on Jun 6, 2015 13:00:54 GMT -5
The truth is Jesus, wally it is not any group. Maybe God called you out but you went back. We often prefer that which is familiar. There are many wonderful fellowships out there Marie but it is often hard to step outside of our past conditioning. Those you say you have met with are 'religion' and a taste of what is out there but of course beware of exclusive groups who would claim there's is the way and who focus on other churches as being false. Jehovah Witnesses come to mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 11:17:14 GMT -5
Wally, for the first time in my life I live in a place where I do not know the friends or the workers. I was given the name of the local elder when I moved here. I spoke to him right after I moved here. I ask him to meet with me and my husband so we could get to know him. He declined. After what we have gone through with friends and workers I am not sure I am willing to just go back. There have never been any apologies or acknowledgement of any wrong doing by workers or friends. Would you be willing to go back for more abuse?? Sorry, I do not trust someone who will not meet with me outside of meeting.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jun 7, 2015 11:48:41 GMT -5
I have a struggle I have never seen addressed on the TMB. I miss fellowship. I have not been able to allow myself to go to another church. I have had study and fellowship with other believers in my home. How have others filled this void in their lives after leaving meeting. I have a fear of being treated the same way the workers and friends have treated my family. I am not exclusive. I believe God deals with hearts not buildings. The word religion gives me the chills. The transition to "another way of doing things" can be very difficult. God was gracious to me, and I met a godly man at college who is the assistant pastor at a local church. I went, immediately felt at home, and love the teaching and fellowship. For hubby, however, the transition was difficult. Although he too felt uncomfortable with the focus of the workers in our area and wanted the clear biblical exposition he was hearing from Alistair Begg (truth for life...you can listen free) and others, walking into another environment was hard. We meet in a rented building, so that's just like gospel meetings, but he didn't know any of the hymns (they are mostly the old hymns but not ones the fellowship used) and he didn't know anyone. Nonetheless, we love the teaching and like and respects the folks we meet with, and we are growing spiritually in ways we'd long for. We have peace and joy, but the first few months were bumpy as we adjusted. Fortunately the pastor had scripture for all our questions, met with us, encouraged our questions, and spent several hours with us explaining the scriptural foundation for everything they do. All that said, depending on your area, finding a good church can be a challenge and I suggest checking each church's website for their beliefs and listening to the posted sermons before you check one out. Look for small independent churches with perhaps a Baptist background. You've been through a lot, Marie, and way more difficult stuff than I can even imagine. I pray God will bless your journey.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 11:54:19 GMT -5
Thanks, hberry.
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Post by withlove on Jun 7, 2015 15:16:22 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 12:46:16 GMT -5
When I first left, it wasn't difficult. What I found difficult was finding another church to go to. I found that I wasn't happy in any of the churches I visited. I never fit in anywhere. Going back was more difficult than leaving. After a series of Gospel Meetings, I knew it was now or never. The worker said that if anyone wanted to make a decision that evening, to stand on the last verse of the hymn. I was literally shaking and sweating. I thought I was going to have a stroke. Halfway through the last verse I stood up. I'm very happy in the fellowship. It was the best decision I've made thus far in my life. It was different than the first time I professed, as I was older and was aware of the difficulties professing would bring. The first time I didn't think it through, and was simply being trying to fit in. I'm at peace with my decision to go back.
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2015 12:56:58 GMT -5
Good to have you on board or is it on the board. Welcome latre
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Post by Ed on Jun 17, 2015 13:53:59 GMT -5
Wally, for the first time in my life I live in a place where I do not know the friends or the workers. I was given the name of the local elder when I moved here. I spoke to him right after I moved here. I ask him to meet with me and my husband so we could get to know him. He declined. After what we have gone through with friends and workers I am not sure I am willing to just go back. There have never been any apologies or acknowledgement of any wrong doing by workers or friends. Would you be willing to go back for more abuse?? Sorry, I do not trust someone who will not meet with me outside of meeting. Amazing that he would not meet with you. I don't know your story; is it possible the workers told him not to meet with you? If 2x2's consider you "lost", wouldn't they want to follow scripture - leave the 99 and go after the 1?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 15:33:45 GMT -5
Good to have you on board or is it on the board. Welcome latre Thank you, Mary.
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Post by emy on Jun 17, 2015 17:42:30 GMT -5
Wally, for the first time in my life I live in a place where I do not know the friends or the workers. I was given the name of the local elder when I moved here. I spoke to him right after I moved here. I ask him to meet with me and my husband so we could get to know him. He declined. After what we have gone through with friends and workers I am not sure I am willing to just go back. There have never been any apologies or acknowledgement of any wrong doing by workers or friends. Would you be willing to go back for more abuse?? Sorry, I do not trust someone who will not meet with me outside of meeting. That's atrocious! Did he give any reason? Was he warned? Even with warning, it seems really extreme to me. I'm so sorry you had that ugly experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 18:34:53 GMT -5
How about having "professing workers and friends tell the cemetery and funeral home where you were working that they would not use their services if you were involved? And it was the elder where you had been attending fellowship services for fifteen years, and who you loved dearly?
Unbelievable, had I not experienced it, and yes, I made full inquiry into who was back of it, and why. Very very sad. The only "professing" funerals I have attended since we're those of my own loved relations.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 19:20:32 GMT -5
Emy, He did not give a reason. He did tell me his wife does not go to meeting. As far as the workers talking to him about us, I have no idea. He was friendly on the phone and did not seem to know anything about us. We live in the same town. I often wonder if I will ever run into him. How would I know? It is strange to live some place and not know anyone in the area that knows "truth". I could drive past a meeting and not even know it was there. I did ask him if there were any other friends in the area but he would not answer that question.
Is there a problem with being friends with someone who has gone to meeting at one time. Why would I want to go to meeting here when I feel like they will only be friends if I go to meeting. That is what happen in New England. We were dead to all the people who had claimed to have been our friends once we stopped going to meeting.
Is that what people do to co-workers? If they longer work where I work I will not speak to them any more? Sounds really mature. How is that showing the "right spirit".
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Post by emy on Jun 17, 2015 21:52:22 GMT -5
Emy, He did not give a reason. He did tell me his wife does not go to meeting. As far as the workers talking to him about us, I have no idea. He was friendly on the phone and did not seem to know anything about us. We live in the same town. I often wonder if I will ever run into him. How would I know? It is strange to live some place and not know anyone in the area that knows "truth". I could drive past a meeting and not even know it was there. I did ask him if there were any other friends in the area but he would not answer that question. Is there a problem with being friends with someone who has gone to meeting at one time. Why would I want to go to meeting here when I feel like they will only be friends if I go to meeting. That is what happen in New England. We were dead to all the people who had claimed to have been our friends once we stopped going to meeting. Is that what people do to co-workers? If they longer work where I work I will not speak to them any more? Sounds really mature. How is that showing the "right spirit". It seems to me that such "lost lambs" (sorry about the term ) are people you should make every effort to be friends with, whether they go to meeting or not. Exceptions would be if they would intentionally try to disturb your spirit or sow doubts. ( I don't know anything about you that would suggest that.) That's why I think that attitude is atrocious.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 22:15:06 GMT -5
when someone starts to fall away we should do this: 2Th_3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 8:21:10 GMT -5
Wally, you are right. There is a lesson I learned a long time ago. For the first 10 years of my marriage I went to meeting most of that time with my children without my husband. I found that very few people in that meeting acknowledged I had a husband. That hurt horribly. It made me always acknowledge and ask about the husband/wife and children of others who no longer came to meeting. We made a point of inviting these families to our home. When we lived in WI there was a group of men that got together every Thursday for breakfast. My husband was included even when he was not going to meeting. The overseer at that time always made a point of speaking to my husband continued to come to our house. A few men in the area would stop at my husbands shop to see him when he wasn't going to meeting. It made it much easier for him to come back to meeting. As a wife I appreciated that beyond words.
The power of kindness is so much more powerful then condemnation.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 18, 2015 9:12:51 GMT -5
I have a struggle I have never seen addressed on the TMB. I miss fellowship. I have not been able to allow myself to go to another church. I have had study and fellowship with other believers in my home. How have others filled this void in their lives after leaving meeting. I have a fear of being treated the same way the workers and friends have treated my family. I am not exclusive. I believe God deals with hearts not buildings. The word religion gives me the chills. You don't need to go, but I understand missing it. My wife and I don't go to church regularly any more. We do meet with a group of believers in homes also, some of whom attend church worship, and some do not. We have a dinner, a social time and a study. There's no set frequency but usually it's every 2 to 3 weeks. It's a supper plus an evening usually, so having it more often would be a bit much. Everyone is always eager to attend the next one. My problem with church is that it becomes the main "thing". Whereas the "thing" really is, and should be, your daily walk, your daily devotion, your interaction with everyone you know, and all your dealings. Often people feel they live a divided life - their church life and their work or home life. Church should be a support for the daily walk, which makes it a secondary item, IMO. Our group is just that, a support group for the other things we all do. The social time is just as important as the study, and the meal. We're Christians when we do all those things, so why should it be ONLY singing, prayer and sermon? It's okay to miss fellowship, but no one should think that attending church, or being in a particular church is essential to their salvation. And while people may understand that it's not essential, we're subconsciously conditioned to think that attending a church is essential, and that happens in any church. The simple matter is that if you believe, you are already in church. Enough of that, and sorry to rattle on, because I meant to post a suggestion, maybe a question. You mentioned that you "have had" study and fellowship, past tense. The way we got our group going was by accident. We kinda bumped into some people that knew some other people, et cetera. What made the group gel initially was to work through a study book as a group. In our case, the "Scattered and Gathered Church" workbook which is aimed at Christians who don't meet in a church building. All it took was a suggestion to a few couples, and a few other people were asked, and we had 10 people for this. Once we finished the workbook (about 10 meetings), we decided to keep going with Bible studies, and other Biblical based books. My wife and I also keep our eyes and ears open for seminars, speakers, singers, and so on, so we can enjoy some fellowship without "joining" a social network. I'm more extroverted and enjoy myself with people I don't know well, whereas my wife prefers to hang tight with her close friends and family, and won't likely ever 'join' a church again. So this strikes a reasonable balance, and it is fulfilling also to see God's work in many different corners and ways.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 10:35:34 GMT -5
I have been reading in Matthew 11. I noted that when John sent his disciples to Jesus to confirm that he was the one. Jesus told them to go tell John, that they had seen the blind receive sight, the lame walk, deaf hear, the dead raised and the poor preached the gospel.
Do you think all those things are happening today, by the preaching of workers? What I have seen and heard from workers and friends on and off this board is that the poor do not deserve the gospel preached to them.
The poor do not deserve anything but scorn by most workers and friends. Including the resident worker on this board. How does that line up with what Jesus told John?
Are we not all blind, lame, deaf, dead and poor before God. Our only hope of salvation is God's mercies?
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Post by placid-void on Jul 1, 2015 11:07:38 GMT -5
What I have seen and heard from workers and friends on and off this board is that the poor do not deserve the gospel preached to them. Is this an absolutely true statement? Has anyone else ever heard this sentiment expressed by anyone associated with the F&W Fellowship?
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 1, 2015 12:18:44 GMT -5
What I have seen and heard from workers and friends on and off this board is that the poor do not deserve the gospel preached to them. Is this an absolutely true statement? Has anyone else ever heard this sentiment expressed by anyone associated with the F&W Fellowship? I have never heard that they didn't "deserve the gospel preached to them." But I have heard it preached, and had several personal conversations with workers, that we are not to be involved in providing for the material needs of the poor as you don't want to create "rice" Christians (or whatever phrase you want to use to speak of people who only come for the food.) One older brother worker two years ago told me how relieved he was when one of the newly-professing friends finally saw that serving in a soup kitchen was not "the gospel message" and quit doing that. Another worker told me that in the really poor countries where hungry people would come to convention just for the food, they had to be careful to not let anyone in who wasn't part of the group so they kept the invitations quiet. However, I do believe some friends contribute money when there is some major disaster. I know some of the Sri Lankan friends in the US collected money to help out the Sri Lankans. I don't know how the money was disbursed, but it might have gone to a disaster aid group....I can't remember what or who I made the check out to. None of this is meant to be judgmental, just relaying what I know first hand.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 1, 2015 19:27:55 GMT -5
Is this an absolutely true statement? Has anyone else ever heard this sentiment expressed by anyone associated with the F&W Fellowship? I have never heard that they didn't "deserve the gospel preached to them." But I have heard it preached, and had several personal conversations with workers, that we are not to be involved in providing for the material needs of the poor as you don't want to create "rice" Christians (or whatever phrase you want to use to speak of people who only come for the food.) One older brother worker two years ago told me how relieved he was when one of the newly-professing friends finally saw that serving in a soup kitchen was not "the gospel message" and quit doing that. Another worker told me that in the really poor countries where hungry people would come to convention just for the food, they had to be careful to not let anyone in who wasn't part of the group so they kept the invitations quiet. However, I do believe some friends contribute money when there is some major disaster. I know some of the Sri Lankan friends in the US collected money to help out the Sri Lankans. I don't know how the money was disbursed, but it might have gone to a disaster aid group....I can't remember what or who I made the check out to. None of this is meant to be judgmental, just relaying what I know first hand. I think this is a fairly common perspective among the workers and friends. And I can't say I really disagree with it, as much as I am concerned about "social issues." Jesus himself spoke to the effect that "you seek me because your stomachs were filled" (Jn. 6:26). Jesus "drilled down" to the individual's motives.
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