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Post by terfly4fun on May 26, 2015 16:40:40 GMT -5
I was reared in the truth, and I just always presumed the only ancient book that talked about Jesus Christ was the BIBLE. It's now my understanding that the BIBLE isn't the only ancient book that talks about Jesus. Jesus, for example, is in the ROMAN HISTORY BOOKS: "There was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good ... Pilate condemned him to be crucified ...his disciples didn't abandon their loyality to him. They reported that he appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive." - Ref: Antiquities of the Jews, by Josephus (about AD 37-101). There are other ancient books that discuss Jesus as well ... e.g. ANNALS OF IMPERIAL ROME, by Tacitus (about AD 55-120) and THE LIVES OF THE CAESARS, by Suetonius ( about AD 70 - 130).This entire reference taken from THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE BIBLE, Pg 346, by Stephen M. Miller published by BARBOUR PUBLISHING, copyright 2007, ISBN 978-1-59789-374-9 I've never seen nor read any of these ancient books but I think it would be extremely interesting to read about Jesus and his activities as a carpenter, what did he build? Where did he hang out? What was his casual character like? I mean surely he didn't preach and speak in parables 24/7. Does anyone know of any other ancient books, aside fron the BIBLE, that discuss Jesus as close to the time he lived on the earth as possible?
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 17:57:56 GMT -5
The Josephus account of Jesus is clearly a fake. This man was a Pharisee who did not recognize the central tenants of the Christian cult. Other accounts are either of a similar vein, accounts of Christians in general or secondary accounts.
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Post by terfly4fun on May 26, 2015 18:10:09 GMT -5
Thanks Bert. Do you you know of any other books, besides the Bible, that discuss Jesus and/or his brothers and sisters and natural family?
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Post by rational on May 26, 2015 18:19:32 GMT -5
I was reared in the truth, and I just always presumed the only ancient book that talked about Jesus Christ was the BIBLE. It's now my understanding that the BIBLE isn't the only ancient book that talks about Jesus. Jesus, for example, is in the ROMAN HISTORY BOOKS: "There was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good ... Pilate condemned him to be crucified ...his disciples didn't abandon their loyality to him. They reported that he appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive." - Ref: Antiquities of the Jews, by Josephus (about AD 37-101). It is my understanding that since the early 1800's few believe this to be authentic. Most attribute it to Eusebius who wrote in the fourth century - far removed from the events being described.
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 12:02:14 GMT -5
Thanks Bert. Do you you know of any other books, besides the Bible, that discuss Jesus and/or his brothers and sisters and natural family? I'm not Bert, but I have done quite a bit of research in my journey and I haven't come across any that haven't been found to be fake. Even the circumstances that the bible states were present regarding his birth can't be verified. By that I mean a census and the fact that the person that supposedly threatened to kill all boy babies was already dead before Jesus supposed death birth. Some of these things that just don't add up have been the base for the group who believe Jesus was not a historical person but a Christ consciousness that was just a replica of some of the earlier dying/rising Godmen in earlier religious histories.
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Post by terfly4fun on May 27, 2015 12:31:56 GMT -5
I remember as a boy in meetings sometimes the workers would talk about things during the time of Christ and how he was as a child, his brothers and sisters, is daily life, etc., and I always wondered if there were other books the workers were reading & studying; besides the Bible, that discussed Jesus Christ in greater, more relaxed, detail, than the Bible. I found out the Bible isn't the only ancient book that talks about Jesus from the COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE BIBLE, Page 346, under the title JESUS IN THE ROMAN HISTORY BOOKS. I'll have to write to the publisher and author and tell them these books are FAKE!!! I still do like this book though, because it breaks down each of the 66 books of the Bible with a very condensed explanation of what each of the books of the bible is about. so, are all three of the ancient books mentioned 1) ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS, by Josephus, 2) ANNALS OF IMPERIAL ROME, by Tacitus, and 3) THE LIVES OF THE CAESARS, by Suetonius, all FAKE/FRAUDS???
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Post by fixit on May 27, 2015 12:51:19 GMT -5
Thanks Bert. Do you you know of any other books, besides the Bible, that discuss Jesus and/or his brothers and sisters and natural family? I'm not Bert, but I have done quite a bit of research in my journey and I haven't come across any that haven't been found to be fake. Even the circumstances that the bible states were present regarding his birth can't be verified. By that I mean a census and the fact that the person that supposedly threatened to kill all boy babies was already dead before Jesus supposed death. Some of these things that just don't add up have been the base for the group who believe Jesus was not a historical person but a Christ consciousness that was just a replica of some of the earlier dying/rising Godmen in earlier religious histories. Snow, did you mean "birth" in the underlined above?
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 13:38:16 GMT -5
I'm not Bert, but I have done quite a bit of research in my journey and I haven't come across any that haven't been found to be fake. Even the circumstances that the bible states were present regarding his birth can't be verified. By that I mean a census and the fact that the person that supposedly threatened to kill all boy babies was already dead before Jesus supposed death. Some of these things that just don't add up have been the base for the group who believe Jesus was not a historical person but a Christ consciousness that was just a replica of some of the earlier dying/rising God/men in earlier religious histories. Yes, we don't know the exact date of Jesus birth, but we know he lived and died... and LIVED again. Jesus confirmed to John who he was in Revelation chapters 1-3.
About 95 A.D. On the Lord’s Day I/John was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”
I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
If someone wrote today what John wrote then, what would be your first reaction to it? Would you believe them or just think it was good drugs?
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 13:39:02 GMT -5
I'm not Bert, but I have done quite a bit of research in my journey and I haven't come across any that haven't been found to be fake. Even the circumstances that the bible states were present regarding his birth can't be verified. By that I mean a census and the fact that the person that supposedly threatened to kill all boy babies was already dead before Jesus supposed death. Some of these things that just don't add up have been the base for the group who believe Jesus was not a historical person but a Christ consciousness that was just a replica of some of the earlier dying/rising Godmen in earlier religious histories. Snow, did you mean "birth" in the underlined above? Yes, thank you fixit.
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Post by terfly4fun on May 27, 2015 13:45:18 GMT -5
I GOOGLED ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS by Josephus and found you can access the entire book at: www.gutenberg.org/files/2848/2848-h/2848-h.htm I would hate to think someone spent so much time in putting such a lengthy book together and writing all those words if they were a complete "fake!" Someone sure wasted a lot of time if that is the case. Other references about ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS can be found by simply doing a GOOGLE search for ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS. The book ANNUALS OF IMPERIAL ROME Tacitus (Annals of Imperial Rome recount the major historical events from the years shortly before the death of Augustus up to the death of Nero in AD 68). can also be found by GOOGLING ANNUALS OF IMPERIAL ROME. Also, a lengthy book, that I can't believe someone would spend so much time writing if it were a complete fake/fraud. Finally, I GOOGLED .. THE LIVES OF THE CAESARS by Suetonius. It too come right up, and, again, is a lengthy writing. All three of these books can be purchased on AMAZON. There's that old saying " ... there's always a little bit of truth in every lie ..." I can't believe these three lengthy writings, so carefully researched and written, can be construed as complete fake. I won't say I'm not flexible enough to change my mind if I see PROOF; but, at this point in time ... they don't appear to be complete fakery, quackery, nor fraudulent.
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 13:46:54 GMT -5
I remember as a boy in meetings sometimes the workers would talk about things during the time of Christ and how he was as a child, his brothers and sisters, is daily life, etc., and I always wondered if there were other books the workers were reading & studying; besides the Bible, that discussed Jesus Christ in greater, more relaxed, detail, than the Bible. I found out the Bible isn't the only ancient book that talks about Jesus from the COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE BIBLE, Page 346, under the title JESUS IN THE ROMAN HISTORY BOOKS. I'll have to write to the publisher and author and tell them these books are FAKE!!! I still do like this book though, because it breaks down each of the 66 books of the Bible with a very condensed explanation of what each of the books of the bible is about. so, are all three of the ancient books mentioned 1) ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS, by Josephus, 2) ANNALS OF IMPERIAL ROME, by Tacitus, and 3) THE LIVES OF THE CAESARS, by Suetonius, all FAKE/FRAUDS???
I should have been more clear. There are lots of gospels that never made the bible that did talk about Jesus and there is even the Infancy gospel by Thomas I believe. Have a look at the Nag Hammadi library if you are interested in other's writing about Jesus. When I said no books that haven't been determined to be fake, are from secular sources such as Joesphus. Even the gospel of Mark has been altered to add on the last few verses after the original manuscript. Here is the pdf for the Infancy gospel of Jesus Christ for you. www.aren.org/prison/documents/religion/Pseudepigrapha/Thomas%27%20Gospel%20of%20the%20Infancy%20of%20Jesus%20Christ%20%28Jesus%20at%205%20years%29.pdfalso a link to the Nag Hammadi Library if you're interested. gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.htmlThe Infancy gospel of James is also interesting because it talks about Mary being pretty much conceived like Jesus www.asu.edu/courses/rel376/total-readings/james.pdf
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Post by terfly4fun on May 27, 2015 13:49:47 GMT -5
What about JESUS IN THE ROMAN HISTORY BOOKS as pointed out in the book THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE BIBLE. Is that false too?
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 13:51:32 GMT -5
I GOOGLED ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS by Josephus and found you can access the entire book at: www.gutenberg.org/files/2848/2848-h/2848-h.htm I would hate to think someone spent so much time in putting such a lengthy book together and writing all those words if they were a complete "fake!" Someone sure wasted a lot of time if that is the case. Other references about ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS can be found by simply doing a GOOGLE search for ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS. The book ANNUALS OF IMPERIAL ROME Tacitus (Annals of Imperial Rome recount the major historical events from the years shortly before the death of Augustus up to the death of Nero in AD 68). can also be found by GOOGLING ANNUALS OF IMPERIAL ROME. Also, a lengthy book, that I can't believe someone would spend so much time writing if it were a complete fake/fraud. Finally, I GOOGLED .. THE LIVES OF THE CAESARS by Suetonius. It too come right up, and, again, is a lengthy writing. All three of these books can be purchased on AMAZON. There's that old saying " ... there's always a little bit of truth in every lie ..." I can't believe these three lengthy writings, so carefully researched and written, can be construed as complete fake. I won't say I'm not flexible enough to change my mind if I see PROOF; but, at this point in time ... they don't appear to be complete fakery, quackery, nor fraudulent. Here is something on the subject. Helps you make your own decision of what happened hopefully? www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2012/11/josephus-a-reliable-source/
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Post by snow on May 27, 2015 13:53:26 GMT -5
If someone wrote today what John wrote then, what would be your first reaction to it? Would you believe them or just think it was good drugs? To the unbelievers they believe yes this so and so was on drugs.... To the believers like myself I would ponder at first, meditate, and pray about it... and make up my own mind.You are far more tolerant of these things than most people. I would say most would not think the person was having a legitimate experience if it happened today. But because it happened 2000 approx. years ago, it's authentic?
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Post by terfly4fun on May 27, 2015 14:18:40 GMT -5
Thanks Snow. I'll read that information. What about ANNALS OF IMPERIAL ROME by Tacitus, and THE LIVES OF THE CAESARS by Suetonius? Are they fraudulent too? I took a look on Wikipedia and while there found something interesting as well that explains what the Christians believe about Jesus, what the Moslems believe about Jesus, and finally what the Jews believe about Jesus, and I was surprised to find that Judaism rejects the Christian and Islamic belief that Jesus was the awaited Messiah, arguing that he did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh. I clicked on "Messianic Prophecies" to find the list of things the Jews believe Jesus Christ did NOT fulfill ... many of them in the book of Isiah. This can all be read at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianismand a discussion of what Christians, Moslems, and Jews believe are at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JesusI was surprised to see Pontius Pilate referred to as Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate ... wonder what was "perfect" about him? Ha! Anyway, these references came from the sources at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews and I find some interesting information in there by Wikipedia; hope it's not all untrue!
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