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Post by BobWilliston on May 25, 2015 1:10:59 GMT -5
That doesn't make sense. If a person doesn't believe in God, why would the Bible mean anything to him at all? Anyway, how many Christians get married because the Bible supports marriage? Exactly, if a person doesn't believe in a God, why marry at all? As it's biblical! Civil laws should be updated so as not to put atheists through something that is required by God! Because that must be so traumatic for them! I would be quite interested in what you think a marriage is. Marriage in the modern sense isn't "biblical" anyway -- it's civil. Proof of that fact is that there's no way out of it except through a civil legal process. Biblical marriages in the Old Testament would be called fornication these days. You sound like you have something against marriage for atheists. Do you know any married atheists. Lots of them want to be married. Anyway, the law doesn't require anyone to be married -- atheists know that, and they still want to be married. I know lots of them. I know married witches too.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 25, 2015 1:22:45 GMT -5
If you think producing children is the reason to get "married", why do they give marriage licenses to (1) virgins, (2) 70-year olds, and (3) couples who intend not to have children. Maybe couples shouldn't have their marriage certificate finalized until they can produce a child, just so they can be found worthy of marriage. Married heterosexual couples who either can't or won't produce children - does that make them of a different class? That's your criterion for refusing to call same-sex couples married. From the time the word "marriage" was invented it meant something like: The legally or formally recognized union of a man and a woman as partners in a relationship.Are you suggesting there's a good reason to change the meaning of the word "marriage"? Is it time to change the meaning of the word "man" and the meaning of the word "woman" as well? No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that according to your concept of marriage, those are the complications -- unless you're really going to be outright discriminatory. Anyway, the civil formality of marriage was invented for nothing more than legitimizing heirs -- babies have never required church married parents -- just committed parents.
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Post by maryhig on May 25, 2015 1:29:59 GMT -5
Exactly, if a person doesn't believe in a God, why marry at all? As it's biblical! Civil laws should be updated so as not to put atheists through something that is required by God! Because that must be so traumatic for them! I would be quite interested in what you think a marriage is. Marriage in the modern sense isn't "biblical" anyway -- it's civil. Proof of that fact is that there's no way out of it except through a civil legal process. Biblical marriages in the Old Testament would be called fornication these days. You sound like you have something against marriage for atheists. Do you know any married atheists. Lots of them want to be married. Anyway, the law doesn't require anyone to be married -- atheists know that, and they still want to be married. I know lots of them. I know married witches too. Bob, I believe in God, therefore I believe in the bible. And marriage is from the bible! Marriage isn't biblical in the "modern sense" because man has twisted it to suit themselves! And if modern marriage is civil anyway, why not just update modern civil laws for atheists? Then they don't have to do something that is required by God! I would have thought this would be a good idea to all the atheists on here? Then that's one more thing that they don't have to do, that it says to do in the bible! And I'm not advocating that the government so something that's required by God, I'm saying they should make a law that is required by man, and update civil laws to match marriage laws, so that people who don't believe in God don't have to go through the trauma of anything biblical. Like marriage! Because from what I've read on here, many people don't marry for love, but for financial security! So updating civil laws would cover that!
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Post by BobWilliston on May 25, 2015 1:49:42 GMT -5
I would be quite interested in what you think a marriage is. Marriage in the modern sense isn't "biblical" anyway -- it's civil. Proof of that fact is that there's no way out of it except through a civil legal process. Biblical marriages in the Old Testament would be called fornication these days. You sound like you have something against marriage for atheists. Do you know any married atheists. Lots of them want to be married. Anyway, the law doesn't require anyone to be married -- atheists know that, and they still want to be married. I know lots of them. I know married witches too. Bob, I believe in God, therefore I believe in the bible. And marriage is from the bible! Marriage isn't biblical in the "modern sense" because man has twisted it to suit themselves! And if modern marriage is civil anyway, why not just update modern civil laws for atheists? Then they don't have to do something that is required by God! I would have thought this would be a good idea to all the atheists on here? Then that's one more thing that they don't have to do, that it says to do in the bible! And I'm not advocating that the government so something that's required by God, I'm saying they should make a law that is required by man, and update civil laws to match marriage laws, so that people who don't believe in God don't have to go through the trauma of anything biblical. Like marriage! Because from what I've read on here, many people don't marry for love, but for financial security! So updating civil laws would cover that! Christians don't have an exclusive entitlement on marriage. And the Jews didn't invent marriage. Forget atheists for a minute. How about aboriginal peoples world-wide? They formed marriages for millennia -- long before any of the Bible was even written. Why would they do that? They tried to pass a law in South Africa once making all non-Christian marriages void -- that was the racist Apartheid idea. The Hindus and everyone else resented having their "wives called wh-res and their children called bastards." (That's a direct quote from Gandhi) Unless you think marriage is a burden, why do you think atheists wouldn't want it too? PS Try writing "who-es" and see what comes up. I have found a Bible word that is unspeakably obscene.
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Post by maryhig on May 25, 2015 2:52:35 GMT -5
Bob, I believe in God, therefore I believe in the bible. And marriage is from the bible! Marriage isn't biblical in the "modern sense" because man has twisted it to suit themselves! And if modern marriage is civil anyway, why not just update modern civil laws for atheists? Then they don't have to do something that is required by God! I would have thought this would be a good idea to all the atheists on here? Then that's one more thing that they don't have to do, that it says to do in the bible! And I'm not advocating that the government so something that's required by God, I'm saying they should make a law that is required by man, and update civil laws to match marriage laws, so that people who don't believe in God don't have to go through the trauma of anything biblical. Like marriage! Because from what I've read on here, many people don't marry for love, but for financial security! So updating civil laws would cover that! Christians don't have an exclusive entitlement on marriage. And the Jews didn't invent marriage. Forget atheists for a minute. How about aboriginal peoples world-wide? They formed marriages for millennia -- long before any of the Bible was even written. Why would they do that? They tried to pass a law in South Africa once making all non-Christian marriages void -- that was the racist Apartheid idea. The Hindus and everyone else resented having their "wives called wh-res and their children called bastards." (That's a direct quote from Gandhi) Unless you think marriage is a burden, why do you think atheists wouldn't want it too? PS Try writing "who-es" and see what comes up. I have found a Bible word that is unspeakably obscene. Yes but wouldn't all those different people be getting married before their God? Atheists don't believe in God, so there's no need to marry? Well that's what I would have thought anyway? Wouldn't a civil ceremony with all the same rights be just the same? And it's not just getting married, but marriage under the blessings of a God when they don't believe! I've seen many people get married in church who say they don't believe in God! That includes hypocritical Christians, who say they believe, but only have anything to do with God at christenings, weddings and funerals! And there are plenty of them too! I believe marriage firstly is between man and woman on the earth, then spiritually between man and God through Christ in the heart!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 25, 2015 3:01:32 GMT -5
That doesn't make sense. If a person doesn't believe in God, why would the Bible mean anything to him at all? Anyway, how many Christians get married because the Bible supports marriage? Exactly, if a person doesn't believe in a God, why marry at all? As it's biblical! Civil laws should be updated so as not to put atheists through something that is required by God! Because that must be so traumatic for them! Why do you think that the concept of marriage comes only from the bible? The concept of marriage has nothing to do with the bible!
People of all religions and beliefs get married! Atheists get married!
The sun doesn't rise & set with the bible!
Good grief! It isn't the only book in the world
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Post by maryhig on May 25, 2015 3:05:44 GMT -5
Exactly, if a person doesn't believe in a God, why marry at all? As it's biblical! Civil laws should be updated so as not to put atheists through something that is required by God! Because that must be so traumatic for them! Why do you think that the concept of marriage comes only from the bible? The concept of marriage has nothing to do with the bible!
People of all religions and beliefs get married!
Atheists get married!
The sun doesn't rise & set with the bible!
But the sun sets and rises at Gods will! And actually there is one son that rises with the bible and that's Gods son!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 25, 2015 3:08:54 GMT -5
Why do you think that the concept of marriage comes only from the bible? The concept of marriage has nothing to do with the bible!
People of all religions and beliefs get married!
Atheists get married!
The sun doesn't rise & set with the bible!
But the sun sets and rises at Gods will! And actually there is one son that rises with the bible and that's Gods son! Where is your respect for all the other people in the world & their beliefs ?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 25, 2015 3:15:45 GMT -5
Christians don't have an exclusive entitlement on marriage. And the Jews didn't invent marriage. Forget atheists for a minute. How about aboriginal peoples world-wide? They formed marriages for millennia -- long before any of the Bible was even written. Why would they do that? They tried to pass a law in South Africa once making all non-Christian marriages void -- that was the racist Apartheid idea. The Hindus and everyone else resented having their "wives called wh-res and their children called bastards." (That's a direct quote from Gandhi) Unless you think marriage is a burden, why do you think atheists wouldn't want it too? PS Try writing "who-es" and see what comes up. I have found a Bible word that is unspeakably obscene. Yes but wouldn't all those different people be getting married before their God? Atheists don't believe in God, so there's no need to marry? Well that's what I would have thought anyway? Wouldn't a civil ceremony with all the same rights be just the same? And it's not just getting married, but marriage under the blessings of a God when they don't believe!
I've seen many people get married in church who say they don't believe in God! That includes hypocritical Christians, who say they believe, but only have anything to do with God at christenings, weddings and funerals! And there are plenty of them too! I believe marriage firstly is between man and woman on the earth, then spiritually between man and God through Christ in the heart! And of course that marriage has to be the god in which you believe! None other than your own concept of god can possibly be correct!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 25, 2015 3:29:34 GMT -5
Not with today's state-approved or recognised thresholds but who's to say in 50-100 yrs how they'll be viewed? 100 yrs ago people were being thrown into prison for sodomy, just lik e paedophiles are today. Why is it so difficult for people like you to understand that homosexuality is between consenting adults while a paedophile is a person who is sexually attracted to children, children which aren't able to give their consent? Details, details, details. Bert is not worried about minor matters like that. Bert's fount of knowledge is talk back radio, probably Christian Talk back
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Post by dmmichgood on May 25, 2015 3:42:26 GMT -5
Why is it so difficult for people like you to understand that homosexuality is between consenting adults while a paedophile is a person who is sexually attracted to children, children which aren't able to give their consent? Details, details, details. Bert is not worried about minor matters like that. Bert's fount of knowledge is talk back radio, probably Christian Talk back You are probably right!
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Post by maryhig on May 25, 2015 3:45:53 GMT -5
But the sun sets and rises at Gods will! And actually there is one son that rises with the bible and that's Gods son! Where is your respect for all the other people in the world & their beliefs ?
I respect God over man. Including myself! My feelings come last to his! I put God first! But with that comes my love for my fellow man, including atheists, anyone who's gay, Christians all religions any colour skin, all the people in the world. I care for everyone! When I was working, I used to speak to people in work about God. I spoke to a woman who was straight and has 3 children, she dismissed me and told me I was mad. I also spoke to someone who was gay. He listened and asked me quite a few different things. I spoke to him many times. And my heart melted for him! He had a soft gentle heart, and God looks at the heart! But I also believe in the living God of the bible, and the God I believe in says marriage is between a man and a woman. So that's what I believe is right! I'm a sinner, and I'm nothing, I'm only stating what my God says is right by him. And I believe in him with all my heart!
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 3:52:30 GMT -5
Does it say a woman shouldn't sleep with a woman? But the bible does say: Ruth loved Naomi as Adam loved Eve. And we know how Adam and Eve loved from the history of the children they had. A suppose that you could twist this into 'spiritual love' but after the arrival of Cain, Abel and Seth, plus a minimum of two other sons and two daughters it would seem that there was an exchange of bodily fluids as well as that spiritual love! Rational the Bible does not say anything about Ruth loving Naomi as Adam loved Eve. You're making this up.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 3:55:41 GMT -5
Of course the big question for us is that if a legally married same sex couple attend a 2x2 mission in Ireland next year and feel moved to 'profess' what will the official 2x2 position on this be? Will they be accepted into the 2x2 fold as they are or will they be required to divorce prior to being baptised? Will they be allowed to remain married but required to take a vow of celibacy? Will they be prevented from 'professing' altogether and therefore condemned to a lost eternity? Perhaps this is an issue that 2x2 Workers participating on the board will be best placed to advise upon or, if unable to advise, will be well placed to obtain the views of their Irish co-workers on. Does the 2x2 church have a policy on same sex married couples wanting to profess or will they just make it up as they go along? Matt10 In the relatively unlikely event of this happening, it will be the same for them as anyone else - the price of repentance is "go and sin no more". Making something 'legal' is not going to change the fact that it's a sin in the eyes of God.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 25, 2015 3:59:51 GMT -5
So what about the homosexual workers that are preaching ? ( By the way I have nothing against homosexuals )
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 4:18:57 GMT -5
So what about the homosexual workers that are preaching ? ( By the way I have nothing against homosexuals ) are there? where? and who?
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 4:23:04 GMT -5
So what about the homosexual workers that are preaching ? ( By the way I have nothing against homosexuals ) I haven't seen any more than unsupported allegations that there are such. However, as long as they are resisting temptation and remaining celibate, keeping pure in thought and deed, it's no different to anyone else. Fornication is a sin no matter who does it.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 4:53:44 GMT -5
Where is your respect for all the other people in the world & their beliefs ?
I respect God over man. Including myself! My feelings come last to his! I put God first! But with that comes my love for my fellow man, including atheists, anyone who's gay, Christians all religions any colour skin, all the people in the world. I care for everyone! When I was working, I used to speak to people in work about God. I spoke to a woman who was straight and has 3 children, she dismissed me and told me I was mad. I also spoke to someone who was gay. He listened and asked me quite a few different things. I spoke to him many times. And my heart melted for him! He had a soft gentle heart, and God looks at the heart! But I also believe in the living God of the bible, and the God I believe in says marriage is between a man and a woman. So that's what I believe is right! I'm a sinner, and I'm nothing, I'm only stating what my God says is right by him. And I believe in him with all my heart! Clearly there are different views as to what God thinks. Is there any reason why the laws of he state should be influenced more by what your God says than what anyone else's God says? Is there any reason why your interpretation of the bible is any more valid than those who interpret it differently? Is there any reason why you should be deemed to have a more accurate understanding of what God thinks than anyone else? Matt10
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Post by Roselyn T on May 25, 2015 5:55:56 GMT -5
So what about the homosexual workers that are preaching ? ( By the way I have nothing against homosexuals ) are there? where? and who? Do some research Virgo !
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Post by applesandbacon on May 25, 2015 6:00:04 GMT -5
Another classic post Bert. I think sometimes your participation here impedes your education rather than enhances it. I hardly know where to start. First Ireland did not experience the 1960's sexual revolution which you appear to be referring to. In fact contraception was illegal in Ireland right up until 1980. Hardly the basis for sexual liberation don't you think. Don't mix Ireland up with England just because you live in New Zealand. Given that the legalisation of the things you refer to happened in England a lot earlier (divorce was legislated for in England in 1937 and abortion in 1967) and the things which you predict coming to pass certainly didn't happen there, what leads you to conclude that they will happen in Ireland? Anyone with any knowledge of the UK over the last few years will be aware that the attitude to child pornography has gone completely the opposite direction to the one you are suggesting. So what is it then that leads you to conclude that legalising abortion, divorce or same sex marriage will lead to the decriminalisation of child pornography .... or indeed the legalisation of polygamy or the burning of churches? You're going to have to spell this one out I'm afraid. Matt10 Well, I dont think they are going to immediately say child porn is legal, however, there have already been suggestions of lowering the age of consent - thats one way of removing a problem eh? then the 14 or 15 year old is no longer abused, because they consented.. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2508665/Prime-Minister-swiftly-rejects-health-experts-lower-age-consent-15.htmlOfcourse its only a suggestion and so was abortion in the 1920s, etc etc etc, now its normal. Pop down to the clinic and kill your baby and not one word said about it. Kill it a few months later and you get a prison sentence. Having had many conversations about the gay subject, I always bring up the suggestion that incest would be fine if homosxuality is ok. The answer from those liberally minded people is yes, if people want to do it then its fine. Next pedophilia, age of consent lowered and a 50 year old can have sex with a 14 year old. (hasnt happened in the UK, but its legal elsewhere.)
Therefore we slide a little further - not a million miles from what Bert is saying.The "age of consent" is a modern invention, brought about by reforms over the course of the last two centuries. Before that, children had no rights. They got married when their parents said they could/should, some as young as 9 (yes, in this country!) People have worked hard in recent years to give children rights separate from their parent's choices, and protect them from being used as commodities. Where are we backsliding from, exactly?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 25, 2015 6:00:47 GMT -5
So what about the homosexual workers that are preaching ? ( By the way I have nothing against homosexuals ) I haven't seen any more than unsupported allegations that there are such. However, as long as they are resisting temptation and remaining celibate, keeping pure in thought and deed, it's no different to anyone else. Fornication is a sin no matter who does it. Again Felicity, maybe do some research, Ross has stated the same. Just because we are ex's doesn't mean we don't know what is going on in our own area !
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Post by Roselyn T on May 25, 2015 6:15:12 GMT -5
So what about the homosexual workers that are preaching ? ( By the way I have nothing against homosexuals ) I haven't seen any more than unsupported allegations that there are such. However, as long as they are resisting temptation and remaining celibate, keeping pure in thought and deed, it's no different to anyone else. Fornication is a sin no matter who does it. How many workers do you think are really celibate?
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Post by applesandbacon on May 25, 2015 6:19:30 GMT -5
Well, I dont think they are going to immediately say child porn is legal, however, there have already been suggestions of lowering the age of consent - thats one way of removing a problem eh? then the 14 or 15 year old is no longer abused, because they consented.. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2508665/Prime-Minister-swiftly-rejects-health-experts-lower-age-consent-15.htmlOfcourse its only a suggestion and so was abortion in the 1920s, etc etc etc, now its normal. Pop down to the clinic and kill your baby and not one word said about it. Kill it a few months later and you get a prison sentence. Having had many conversations about the gay subject, I always bring up the suggestion that incest would be fine if homosxuality is ok. The answer from those liberally minded people is yes, if people want to do it then its fine. Next pedophilia, age of consent lowered and a 50 year old can have sex with a 14 year old. (hasnt happened in the UK, but its legal elsewhere.)
Therefore we slide a little further - not a million miles from what Bert is saying.The "age of consent" is a modern invention, brought about by reforms over the course of the last two centuries. Before that, children had no rights. They got married when their parents said they could/should, some as young as 9 ( yes, in this country!) People have worked hard in recent years to give children rights separate from their parent's choices, and protect them from being used as commodities. Where are we backsliding from, exactly? Just realized that "this" country is probably not your country. I'm in the US. If you're in the UK, the age of consent was 10-12 until the late 1800s. it took a huge effort on the part of reformers to raise it to the age of 16. Reformers were considered very radical at the time. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent
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Post by rational on May 25, 2015 6:28:34 GMT -5
the verse you quoted has nothing to do with ruth or Naomi... You will need to narrow that down a little. The original verse quoted was Ruth 1:14 and describes the relationship between Ruth and Naomi. I thought it had at least a little to do Ruth and Naomi.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 6:32:31 GMT -5
I haven't seen any more than unsupported allegations that there are such. However, as long as they are resisting temptation and remaining celibate, keeping pure in thought and deed, it's no different to anyone else. Fornication is a sin no matter who does it. Again Felicity, maybe do some research, Ross has stated the same. Just because we are ex's doesn't mean we don't know what is going on in our own area ! Yes, I am aware that Ross stated the same, though when pressed for further details he didn't respond. Are you saying that you could name someone currently in the work in Australia who is a practising homosexual? Or someone whose inclination would be for a same-sex relationship but who is practising celibacy? Or is this just a whisper-campaign?
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Post by maryhig on May 25, 2015 6:36:20 GMT -5
I respect God over man. Including myself! My feelings come last to his! I put God first! But with that comes my love for my fellow man, including atheists, anyone who's gay, Christians all religions any colour skin, all the people in the world. I care for everyone! When I was working, I used to speak to people in work about God. I spoke to a woman who was straight and has 3 children, she dismissed me and told me I was mad. I also spoke to someone who was gay. He listened and asked me quite a few different things. I spoke to him many times. And my heart melted for him! He had a soft gentle heart, and God looks at the heart! But I also believe in the living God of the bible, and the God I believe in says marriage is between a man and a woman. So that's what I believe is right! I'm a sinner, and I'm nothing, I'm only stating what my God says is right by him. And I believe in him with all my heart! Clearly there are different views as to what God thinks. Is there any reason why the laws of he state should be influenced more by what your God says than what anyone else's God says? Is there any reason why your interpretation of the bible is any more valid than those who interpret it differently? Is there any reason why you should be deemed to have a more accurate understanding of what God thinks than anyone else? Matt10 How can you interpret it differently when is says clearly man should not sleep with man, and marriage is between a man and woman? It says it loud and clear! In Leviticus 18 and 20, and Romans 1. How much clearer do you need it? It's saying it word for word how is that wrong? If you don't believe in God then ok. But I do! You can't believe in God and say it's ok to do something written in the bible when clearly it said it's wrong! That goes for me too!
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Post by rational on May 25, 2015 6:36:37 GMT -5
Not with today's state-approved or recognised thresholds but who's to say in 50-100 yrs how they'll be viewed? 100 yrs ago people were being thrown into prison for sodomy, just lik e paedophiles are today. Why is it so difficult for people like you to understand that homosexuality is between consenting adults while a paedophile is a person who is sexually attracted to children, children which aren't able to give their consent? Just to be clear - pedophilia is not a crime and no one gets thrown into jail for being a pedophile. People are put into jail for committing crimes and, in this case, the crime is the sexual abuse of children, The vast majority of people who sexually abuse children are not pedophiles. Let's not get crazy with what people were being thrown in jail for centuries ago. Many people have been killed because they were not christians.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 6:38:08 GMT -5
I haven't seen any more than unsupported allegations that there are such. However, as long as they are resisting temptation and remaining celibate, keeping pure in thought and deed, it's no different to anyone else. Fornication is a sin no matter who does it. How many workers do you think are really celibate? In the country where I live - all of them are celibate, without a shadow of a doubt.
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