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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 14:19:29 GMT -5
Do you find that some seem staged or trying to speak and pray to the workers? If it is a young brother or sister, it won't change things. But a lead worker and especially an overseer can really change the dynamics of the meeting. I've never noticed any difference. The people in our meeting are the same no matter who is visiting.
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Post by fixit on May 23, 2015 16:00:36 GMT -5
William Irvine delivered us from religious confusion and brought us back to the lowly Jesus who walked and taught on the shores of Galilee. Or you could say God delivered us from religious confusion, and used William Irvine and others to point people to Jesus. Of course. I thought that would probably come up! We need to be pointed to Jesus in every generation.
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Post by Mary on May 23, 2015 16:14:30 GMT -5
And millions of people are being pointed to Jesus every generation all around the world. There is likely many places where Jesus is being worshipped in your neighborhood at this very moment. The world didn't need William Irvine as there were plenty who had gone before him. Jesus was our redeemer not Irvine. Irvine was confused himself.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2015 19:28:50 GMT -5
Well you aren't speaking of my experience. If I want a social group I can easily find one that doesn't occupy so much of my time. I reckon you would make a great Line dancer Bert.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2015 19:33:58 GMT -5
I see there is more confusion about which confuser is delivering us from the confusers of our confusion. aye well, back to weeding the spuds and making pumpkin soup.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2015 20:22:51 GMT -5
We are having our Australian Special Meetings. The one I attended for the day made no mention of any Worker. When I came home and read the TMB it was about nothing but Workers. Why are exes so obsessed about Workers, and so little about Jesus? Interesting question Bert. Perhaps it is a trait learned from the workers themselves. During countless visits from workers over the years all I ever heard were stories about this worker or that worker. I never during a visit heard about Jesus from a worker. That's just a sign that your church is obsessed with workers. It is worker focused and worker driven. We exe's on the other hand just like to watch you obsessing and comment on your obsession
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Post by emy on May 23, 2015 20:35:39 GMT -5
William Irvine delivered us from religious confusion and brought us back to the lowly Jesus who walked and taught on the shores of Galilee. Or you could say God delivered us from religious confusion, and used William Irvine and others to point people to Jesus. Good catch Felicity! More accurate.
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 21:13:05 GMT -5
I can't see what all the fuss is about, these men saw it in their heart to follow Jesus as he taught in the bible. So they did it, I have been taught to follow Jesus, not Edward Cooney, or William Irvine but Jesus. And he goes way back to the shores of Galilee. So my beliefs stem from him, not any man, as Nathan so rightly put it, these men are signposts.
But Jesus' life is the path we follow! And he brings us to God. Gods people are only guides!
My mum says Gods people are like cats eyes in the road, when the light shines on them in the darkness, they guide you to the way home! But without the light, they don't do the job!
No man can do Gods work without Jesus and Gods spirit in the heart, without the light were nothing!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:26:31 GMT -5
Quote - "That's just a sign that your church is obsessed with workers. It is worker focused and worker driven. We exe's on the other hand just like to watch you obsessing and comment on your obsession"
I used to have a weekly quote thread. If it was still around I would have put this down as the Best Quote of the Week.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:30:41 GMT -5
Quote - "And millions of people are being pointed to Jesus every generation all around the world. There is likely many places where Jesus is being worshipped in your neighborhood at this very moment. The world didn't need William Irvine as there were plenty who had gone before him. Jesus was our redeemer not Irvine. Irvine was confused himself."
Irvine is the Chief Exe. He certainly seems to be a vital cog in the machinery of many exes thinking.
We ourselves don't hold Irvine, or any other Worker, as redeemer. It's comforting for me to see my opponents reaching for such strawman, silly arguments.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:40:52 GMT -5
Quote - "But Jesus' life is the path we follow!"
Please define this "follow" word.
Some people sold all, left family behind and went out preaching the Gospel (like Paul.) You can rightly say they were following Jesus because this is what Jesus Himself did, and specifically instructed some to do. So then... if you see someone living a salaried, cloistered life as a Christian monk - are they too "following Jesus."
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 21:49:42 GMT -5
Quote - "But Jesus' life is the path we follow!" Please define this "follow" word.
Some people sold all, left family behind and went out preaching the Gospel (like Paul.) You can rightly say they were following Jesus because this is what Jesus Himself did, and specifically instructed some to do. So then... if you see someone living a salaried, cloistered life as a Christian monk - are they too "following Jesus."No, I don't believe it's right to have a salary, Jesus tells us to take no money. It's wrong to be paid for doing Gods work! Also I believe following him starts within in our own hearts, by taking up our crosses and denying ourselves. (Jesus taught us this is what we must do to follow him) We will then live it out, and become a guide to others. I believe we have to live the life Jesus taught us to live. And stay humble.
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Post by emy on May 23, 2015 22:00:17 GMT -5
No, I don't believe it's right to have a salary, Jesus tells us to take no money. It's wrong to be paid for doing Gods work! Also I believe following him starts within in our own hearts, by taking up our crosses and denying ourselves. (Jesus taught us this is what we must do to follow him) We will then live it out, and become a guide to others. I believe we have to live the life Jesus taught us to live. And stay humble. I know you don't have workers, but would you give an opinion on this: Workers give up jobs, homes of their own and travel by modes donated to them by their 'congregation.' People give to them because they know they have needs not usually met while staying in a home. (personal effects, clothing, gas, occasional meals, gospel meeting room rental etc.) Are these donations a salary and wrong as you see it? And yes, some will immediately say that they also accept donations from estates which are usually given "for use in the furtherance of the gospel," or some such designation. Not intended for personal use, imo.) What say you?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 22:05:27 GMT -5
Jesus a - warned about the salaried preacher b - accepted the charity of those who housed, clothed and fed him.
In the Acts and Epistles we read a - money was used to help the suffering Christians during the Roman Jewish war b - money was used to sponsor hundreds of itinerant preachers who traveled throughout the Roman Empire.
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 22:20:34 GMT -5
No, I don't believe it's right to have a salary, Jesus tells us to take no money. It's wrong to be paid for doing Gods work! Also I believe following him starts within in our own hearts, by taking up our crosses and denying ourselves. (Jesus taught us this is what we must do to follow him) We will then live it out, and become a guide to others. I believe we have to live the life Jesus taught us to live. And stay humble. I know you don't have workers, but would you give an opinion on this: Workers give up jobs, homes of their own and travel by modes donated to them by their 'congregation.' People give to them because they know they have needs not usually met while staying in a home. (personal effects, clothing, gas, occasional meals, gospel meeting room rental etc.) Are these donations a salary and wrong as you see it? And yes, some will immediately say that they also accept donations from estates which are usually given "for use in the furtherance of the gospel," or some such designation. Not intended for personal use, imo.) What say you? I don't really know much about your workers Emy. But I feel if it's to meet their needs and not their wants then it's OK, because they did this in the bible. But, what are needs? If its paying for own personal use like holidays etc. its wrong IMHO. If its for food and a humble shelter then yes! In my own life, i don't believe it's right to have excess amounts of money. I just feel it can take a hold of us. It's what the money is used for that's important. It's the love of money that's wrong. But realistically, if you don't love money, you won't have any. Because you'll be helping people with what you do have! I believe if you have excess amounts of money, more than you need to live on, then help others with it. God looks at the heart. I just live everyday and leave my life in Gods hands! I don't worry about money. Jesus said not to, and he told us to trust in God! And so far, God has blessed me with food and a roof over my head! That's all I need!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2015 22:41:33 GMT -5
I know you don't have workers, but would you give an opinion on this: Workers give up jobs, homes of their own and travel by modes donated to them by their 'congregation.' eople give to them because they know they have needs not usually met while staying in a home. (personal effects, clothing, gas, occasional meals, gospel meeting room rental etc.) Are these donations a salary and wrong as you see it? And yes, some will immediately say that they also accept donations from estates which are usually given "for use in the furtherance of the gospel," or some such designation. Not intended for personal use, imo.) What say you? I don't really know much about your workers Emy. But I feel if it's to meet their needs and not their wants then it's OK, because they did this in the bible. But, what are needs? If its paying for own personal use like holidays etc. its wrong IMHO.
I think that once you mentioned your taking holiday. Do I remember right?
It is known that taking a break, -taking a "holiday" away from your every day experiences, - is good for one's health, -both physical & mental.
If that is true, should one deny the right of holiday to anyone, even workers?
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Post by maryhig on May 23, 2015 22:56:45 GMT -5
I don't really know much about your workers Emy. But I feel if it's to meet their needs and not their wants then it's OK, because they did this in the bible. But, what are needs? If its paying for own personal use like holidays etc. its wrong IMHO.
I think that once you mentioned your taking holiday. Do I remember right?
It is known that taking a break, -taking a "holiday" away from your every day experiences, - is good for one's health, -both physical & mental.
If that is true, should one deny the right of holiday to anyone, even workers?
Did I? I don't remember that, maybe I did. I haven't had one for years! And I've only been on holiday using our wages. I wouldn't use money given to me by others for doing Gods work and I'd only use it for what I needed and give the rest to others that need it. In the bible they gave money out according to there needs. Not their wants! As I said, I don't know the workers and I don't know their hearts. I'm not a judge. That's just my beliefs!
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Post by emy on May 23, 2015 23:45:41 GMT -5
I know you don't have workers, but would you give an opinion on this: Workers give up jobs, homes of their own and travel by modes donated to them by their 'congregation.' People give to them because they know they have needs not usually met while staying in a home. (personal effects, clothing, gas, occasional meals, gospel meeting room rental etc.) Are these donations a salary and wrong as you see it? And yes, some will immediately say that they also accept donations from estates which are usually given "for use in the furtherance of the gospel," or some such designation. Not intended for personal use, imo.) What say you? I don't really know much about your workers Emy. But I feel if it's to meet their needs and not their wants then it's OK, because they did this in the bible. But, what are needs? If its paying for own personal use like holidays etc. its wrong IMHO. If its for food and a humble shelter then yes! In my own life, i don't believe it's right to have excess amounts of money. I just feel it can take a hold of us. It's what the money is used for that's important. It's the love of money that's wrong. But realistically, if you don't love money, you won't have any. Because you'll be helping people with what you do have! I believe if you have excess amounts of money, more than you need to live on, then help others with it. God looks at the heart. I just live everyday and leave my life in Gods hands! I don't worry about money. Jesus said not to, and he told us to trust in God! And so far, God has blessed me with food and a roof over my head! That's all I need! Thank you Maryhig!
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Post by emy on May 23, 2015 23:49:29 GMT -5
Most often, workers spend their brief holidays with family or close friends with their way mostly paid by the same.
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2015 1:55:54 GMT -5
William Irvine delivered us from religious confusion and brought us back to the lowly Jesus who walked and taught on the shores of Galilee. I'm interested in how a man can deliver us from religious confusion. I think it might have been Christ who did the delivering. "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father" (Gal 1:4) Better wording might be: William Irvine pointed us from religious confusion and towards the lowly Jesus who walked and taught on the shores of Galilee.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 24, 2015 1:59:28 GMT -5
The confusion may well have been in the mind of WI. The churches in Scotland and Ireland that he was so keen to lambast are still around and still have faithful people attend them.
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Post by maryhig on May 24, 2015 3:25:46 GMT -5
The confusion may well have been in the mind of WI. The churches in Scotland and Ireland that he was so keen to lambast are still around and still have faithful people attend them. Yes because the religions here bow down to what their parishioners and powers that be want, rather than what's right by God! They please people and governments rather than the father their supposed to worship! Their teachings are wrong, their ministers and taught wrong and they don't follow the life of Jesus. And they are given big salaries, and allow themselves to be thought of as holy! Their emphasis is on the building and collecting in bank accounts rather than on the people! Poor homeless people sit outside, and receive no help! And before you all blast me. I Iive here and I see it! My grandfather went to one and it was disgraceful what he was taught! They're all religious traditions and pomp and ceremony with long gowns and outfits. Judas had to kiss Jesus to point him out, he looked like everyone else there. Its a load of nonsense! Jesus lived a simple humble life, none of that mumbo jumbo! PS I'm on about the religions, not the hearts of the people!
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2015 14:51:09 GMT -5
Here's some background of what the early workers emerged from:
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Post by withlove on May 25, 2015 0:22:48 GMT -5
It sometimes felt like people were on their best behavior in meetings when the workers were there. One funny thing is that people turn slightly to face the workers while they speak, and sometimes make eye contact with the workers but not the other friends. Also some start picking up mannerisms of a worker in their field, but that's slightly off-topic.
I include myself in the some of the above...it wasn't a conscious thing for most I think...just a natural result of reverencing someone so much. I think it made the workers uncomfortable.
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