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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 8:49:28 GMT -5
And he's professing and attends meetings and is an ex worker. I'm not sure what you mean by that comment? I'm not passing judgement on Nathan, just asking him a question.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 11:26:07 GMT -5
Why do you not think it can be literally 1000 years? I don't see why it can't. And you believe a lot of stuff that I find impossible to swallow The description of the first resurrection in Revelations 20 makes it clear that those who don't worship the beast or have his mark will live and reign for a thousand years, and that the devil will be bound for those same 1000 years. The Jews use a lot of numerology in their culture and tradition.Properties of the number 1000 Symbol of multitude.Evoke a very long time according to the Bible. It is often used also to specify an indefinite quantity. The Fathers of the Church saw in the number 1000 "the totality of the generations and the perfection of the life". Have a paradisiac meaning, it is the immortality of the happiness. According to the Talmudic tradition, thousand is the symbol of the imperishable doctrine. That doesn't really answer my question Nathan. The revelation of John was of God, it's not a book written according to the Jewish culture and tradition. I believe when God says a thousand years that He means a thousand years. That other stuff pasted from websites is just the wisdom of men, and not a revelation from God, so I don't accept anything that contradicts what's written in the scriptures, or reads something into it that isn't actually there. I believe when Peter wrote that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" he's referring to the fact that God's perspective on the passing of time is different to man's, because God is infinite. We have such a short time on earth, relative to infinity, that a thousand years is a huge amount of time to us, but very little in the eyes of God who has existed forever and will exist forever.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 11:35:44 GMT -5
I am NOT a traditional 2x2 because of my background not born and raise in the fellowship, I see thing and understand differently, than many of the friends, the workers and others. which they find hard to swallow. I am sharing my experiences, knowledge in different topics, and understanding of my 37 yrs in the 2x2 fellowship/ministry. I will leave it for the readers to decide what is true or NOT. You can lead a horse to the water but you can't force it to drink it. Yes, I understand that, and I appreciate shared experiences, and many of the comments you've made on this forum. I also appreciate shared knowledge and understanding that's given by the Holy Spirit. I just can't accept that anything that has to be explained by using other religious websites or stuff on youtube is coming from the Holy Spirit. Those aren't places I find profitable to feed. I realise you probably don't agree with me, but I wanted you to understand where I'm coming from
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 11:38:02 GMT -5
It doesn't matter to me whether 1000 yrs or how long it is, I don't want to miss it.Now that I fully agree with. I don't want to miss it either.
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 12:32:45 GMT -5
The Jews use a lot of numerology in their culture and tradition.Properties of the number 1000 Symbol of multitude.Evoke a very long time according to the Bible. It is often used also to specify an indefinite quantity. The Fathers of the Church saw in the number 1000 "the totality of the generations and the perfection of the life". Have a paradisiac meaning, it is the immortality of the happiness. According to the Talmudic tradition, thousand is the symbol of the imperishable doctrine. That doesn't really answer my question Nathan. The revelation of John was of God, it's not a book written according to the Jewish culture and tradition. I believe when God says a thousand years that He means a thousand years. That other stuff pasted from websites is just the wisdom of men, and not a revelation from God, so I don't accept anything that contradicts what's written in the scriptures, or reads something into it that isn't actually there. I believe when Peter wrote that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" he's referring to the fact that God's perspective on the passing of time is different to man's, because God is infinite. We have such a short time on earth, relative to infinity, that a thousand years is a huge amount of time to us, but very little in the eyes of God who has existed forever and will exist forever. That's how I see it though felicity, His time isn't ours. So you don't know that he means a literal thousand years. It could be longer or it could be less? Our ways are not Gods ways! Water isn't always water in the book it also means the word, so does the seed. How about seeing men as trees walking? This isn't literal! When Jesus passed round the cup on the last supper, he said it was his blood. But t wasn't his literal blood! And the bread wasn't his real flesh Jesus said those who have ears to hear, listen to what the spirit says. This means it has a deeper meaning! It's not all literal, it's also spiritual. God is a spirit, not everything is literal in the bible!
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 12:45:07 GMT -5
I believe when Peter wrote that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" he's referring to the fact that God's perspective on the passing of time is different to man's, because God is infinite. We have such a short time on earth, relative to infinity, that a thousand years is a huge amount of time to us, but very little in the eyes of God who has existed forever and will exist forever. That's how I see it though felicity, His time isn't ours. So you don't know that he means a literal thousand years. It could be longer? Our ways are not Gods ways! Water isn't always water in the book it also means the word, so does the seed. How about seeing men as trees walking? This isn't literal! When Jesus passed round the cup on the last supper, he said it was his blood. But t wasn't his literal blood! And the bread wasn't his real flesh Jesus said those who have ears to hear, listen to what the spirit says. This means it has a deeper meaning! It's not all literal, it's also spiritual. God is a spirit, not everything is literal in the bible! Yes, there is a lot of symbolism in the Bible, and I agree with what you said about water, seed & blood. However, you might want to have another look at the blind man in Mark 8 who saw men as trees walking - was that not literally his sight was partially restored the first time so he saw moving blurred shapes, and then after Jesus put his hands on his eyes the second time he could see clearly? That's how I understand it anyway. What do you think?
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 13:06:53 GMT -5
That's how I see it though felicity, His time isn't ours. So you don't know that he means a literal thousand years. It could be longer? Our ways are not Gods ways! Water isn't always water in the book it also means the word, so does the seed. How about seeing men as trees walking? This isn't literal! When Jesus passed round the cup on the last supper, he said it was his blood. But t wasn't his literal blood! And the bread wasn't his real flesh Jesus said those who have ears to hear, listen to what the spirit says. This means it has a deeper meaning! It's not all literal, it's also spiritual. God is a spirit, not everything is literal in the bible! Yes, there is a lot of symbolism in the Bible, and I agree with what you said about water, seed & blood. However, you might want to have another look at the blind man in Mark 8 who saw men as trees walking - was that not literally his sight was partially restored the first time so he saw moving blurred shapes, and then after Jesus put his hands on his eyes the second time he could see clearly? That's how I understand it anyway. What do you think? Ok, just wondering what your thoughts were on that thanks! PS Jesus said those who have ears to hear, said it about lots of things that he didn't explain. So there are many symbolic meanings in the bible.
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Post by fixit on May 19, 2015 16:07:01 GMT -5
I have said I do not know. But I do believe he is coming back as a man as it says We will see him the same as they saw him leave. It was on the CARM website which you referred to. I did not write it and that was not in the part describing the trinity. What form do you believe Jesus will be when he returns? A spirit or human form? Did he go up in human or spirit form? God is spirit so if he does not return in human form then must be spirit so God's spirit? I haven't heard anyone say Jesus will remain 100% man. It has always been 100% man and 100% God. I haved never heard about remaining man eternally before. God is a spirit. CARM says Jesus is a man. Some on TMB uphold CARM as some kind of benchmark religious authority by which they condemn the 2x2 church as a cult. CARM encourages the worship of a Trinity that is 100% man and 100% god (whatever that means). Does that make CARM a cult? Mary, here's the post where you quoted CARM's statement that Jesus will eternally remain as a man. From the CARM website: The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.
It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error.Trinitarians came up with a convoluted theory that they admit is a mystery, then condemn those who stick with a simpler Biblical understanding and call it "human reasoning"!!! The CARM website which you refer to believes in the Trinity. Jesus Christ is the Word (God) who became a man. He added human nature to His divine nature. He is both human and divine and, therefore, has two natures. Yet, He is one person--not two. He is not part God and part man. He is presently a man, one person, with two natures where one nature is wholly God and the other wholly man. (Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:5-13; John 1:1-3, 14). Jesus will eternally remain as a man and intercedes for us eternally as a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Heb. 6:20; 7:25). Is there anything a professing person can find wrong in the statement of beliefs which CARM adheres to? carm.org/statement-faith
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Post by fixit on May 19, 2015 17:09:47 GMT -5
If you don't believe Jesus is man and God what do you believe. I did not say I believed what was written on CARM website. You mentioned the site. when you pointed out what it said I asked what others thought and that I had not heard that before and did not have an opinion on it. I am not interested in going around and around saying the same thing. Your obsession with the trinity now this. Fair enough Mary. You asked is there anything a professing person can find wrong in the statement of beliefs which CARM adheres to, and I told you what this professing person thinks. Several times, because I wanted to be sure the message got through! I'm not obsessed with the trinity. Or the concept of folks worshipping a Jesus who is eternally a man. It's just that some folks love to call the 2x2 church a cult on the grounds that we don't accept man-made Trinitarian theory. They claim we are not "Christians" because we don't buy in to man-made religious theory developed centuries after the time of Christ. They use the CARM website as a benchmark of what "Christians" should believe. So really I'm not obsessed at all. I'm simply providing a different opinion for those who are obsessed to consider.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 11:16:13 GMT -5
Ross, I'd go as far as to say that at the end of the day it won't matter whether you worshiped at all, let alone how you worshiped. That's why it seems so much of a time waster arguing over 'correct dogma/doctrine'. You also have no guarantee that you are even worshiping the 'right God'.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 12:23:46 GMT -5
Ross, I'd go as far as to say that at the end of the day it won't matter whether you worshiped at all, let alone how you worshiped. That's why it seems so much of a time waster arguing over 'correct dogma/doctrine'. You also have no guarantee that you are even worshiping the 'right God'. It does matter who we worship either bow our hearts/head today and receive eternal life OR MUST bow our heads later and receive no Salvation. We KNOW the right God/Man Jesus Christ our Savior is the RIGHT God.
Philip 2:5-12 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord/Yahweh, to the glory of God the Father.
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
With all due respect Nathan, you do not 'know' for sure you are worshiping the right God. Because the sacred book of this God says he is the right God, does not in any way present itself as proof. All sacred books say the God of that book is the 'right God'. So quoting from your God's book to prove to me that God is the right one to worship really isn't adequate imo.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 12:57:53 GMT -5
With all due respect Nathan, you do not 'know' for sure you are worshiping the right God. Because the sacred book of this God says he is the right God, does not in any way present itself as proof. All sacred books say the God of that book is the 'right God'. So quoting from your God's book to prove to me that God is the right one to worship really isn't adequate imo. I Know Jesus is the Right because He lived a life of God and Man and came back from the dead to TELL us about it. If your dead father or mother came back from the grave and tell you what he/she had seen wouldn't you believe him/her? I don't know about you but I would listen to my dead parents, who came back from the dead words, instruction very carefully.
Around 95 A.D. John the apostle wrote in Revelation 1:12-18
I/John turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then Jesus placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." You have only 'his book' to back that particular statement with. Proof cannot be found in a book that promotes a particular God. The Quran says Allah is the only right God. If you read his book you will clearly see lots of statements and proofs of why Allah is the only right God. But I'm pretty sure you don't believe that just because the Quran says that Allah is the right God, that this is proof beyond all doubt that Allah is truly the right God. Am I correct?
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2015 13:01:28 GMT -5
And he's professing and attends meetings and is an ex worker. Just so I'm clear, you're saying Jesus will eternally remain as a man, AND "he's professing and attends meetings and is an ex worker?"
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2015 13:04:15 GMT -5
Who? Jesus? I'm confused. hahaha.. I am not Jesus. Mary was talking about my background to Felicity.Ha! You caught me too quickly -- I edited my post!
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 14:26:29 GMT -5
In heaven the Muslims will find out that the Allah they worship is the God the Father and Jesus the Lord/Yahweh of the New Testament. In heaven it will be revealed to the Muslims that to be with Allah/God they had to confess Jesus is the Lord/Yahweh NOT the prophet Mohammad while they were still alive. When has a Muslim ever suggested that the prophet Mohammad is the Lord/Yahweh?
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 17:09:32 GMT -5
In heaven the Muslims will find out that the Allah they worship is the God the Father and Jesus the Lord/Yahweh of the New Testament. In heaven it will be revealed to the Muslims that to be with Allah/God they had to confess Jesus is the Lord/Yahweh NOT the prophet Mohammad while they were still alive. When has a Muslim ever suggested that the prophet Mohammad is the Lord/Yahweh? I don't think that's what he is saying...hes saying they have to confess Jesus is the Lord/Yahweh AND NOT mohammad is the sent one...
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 17:59:52 GMT -5
It looks like we have a few who worship an eternal man-god (100% human and 100% god).
I can hardly believe this Catholic doctrine is widely accepted.
I would rather be considered a heretic than believe this stuff.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 18:37:13 GMT -5
You have only 'his book' to back that particular statement with. Proof cannot be found in a book that promotes a particular God. The Quran says Allah is the only right God. If you read his book you will clearly see lots of statements and proofs of why Allah is the only right God. But I'm pretty sure you don't believe that just because the Quran says that Allah is the right God, that this is proof beyond all doubt that Allah is truly the right God. Am I correct? Muslims worship Allah the God of the Old Testament. Arabs are descendants of Ismael, his father was Abraham and mother Haggai, the Egyptian slave. Ismael was a half-brother to Isaac, who father was Abraham and mother Sarah. Ismael and Jacob were half-brothers. Having Same father, Abraham but born from different mothers. So, the Arabs today worship Allah/God of the Old Testament. The Jacob/Isaac worship God/Yahweh... Most of the Jews today do NOT know/understand that Yahweh/God of the Old Testament is God the Father and the Lord/Yahweh Jesus Christ 2000 yrs ago.
In heaven the Muslims will find out that the Allah they worship is the God the Father and Jesus the Lord/Yahweh of the New Testament. In heaven it will be revealed to the Muslims that to be with Allah/God they had to confess Jesus is the Lord/Yahweh NOT the prophet Mohammad while they were still alive. Or maybe in heaven Christians will find out that they worship Allah? It's really not clear which God is the one that's the 'right' God.
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Post by Mary on May 20, 2015 19:09:26 GMT -5
And he's professing and attends meetings and is an ex worker. Just so I'm clear, you're saying Jesus will eternally remain as a man, AND "he's professing and attends meetings and is an ex worker?" Not quite Gene. In fact not even close.
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2015 19:24:28 GMT -5
Just so I'm clear, you're saying Jesus will eternally remain as a man, AND "he's professing and attends meetings and is an ex worker?" Not quite Gene. In fact not even close. That's what happens when I skim a thread. I should know better.
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Post by Gene on May 20, 2015 19:43:17 GMT -5
You need to take a leaf out of reviews book and learn how to read posts properly gene. Ha! You sure he's the best example to follow?
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Post by Mary on May 20, 2015 20:14:58 GMT -5
You could try him and if you feel he is not a good teacher then you could try someone else.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 21, 2015 0:25:59 GMT -5
I Know Jesus is the Right because He lived a life of God and Man and came back from the dead to TELL us about it Around 95 A.D. John the apostle wrote in Revelation 1:12-18
You have only 'his book' to back that particular statement with. Proof cannot be found in a book that promotes a particular God. The Quran says Allah is the only right God. If you read his book you will clearly see lots of statements and proofs of why Allah is the only right God. But I'm pretty sure you don't believe that just because the Quran says that Allah is the right God, that this is proof beyond all doubt that Allah is truly the right God. Am I correct? Why do people seem to have such difficulty in understanding that one simply can't use statements from the same book, -in this case the bible, -a book they believe is written by the god -to try & verify that same god !
We are right back to that "circular reasoning" bit! circular reasoning: definition. "a use of reason in which the premises depends on or is equivalent to the conclusion, a method of false logic by which "this is used to prove that, and that is used to prove this" example: Jesus came back from the dead
" I know that Jesus came back from the dead ." "Because a book in the bible says so."
" The bible says Jesus came back from the dead ." "Therefore, I know that Jesus came back from the dead"
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Post by maryhig on May 21, 2015 1:42:44 GMT -5
You have only 'his book' to back that particular statement with. Proof cannot be found in a book that promotes a particular God. The Quran says Allah is the only right God. If you read his book you will clearly see lots of statements and proofs of why Allah is the only right God. But I'm pretty sure you don't believe that just because the Quran says that Allah is the right God, that this is proof beyond all doubt that Allah is truly the right God. Am I correct? Why do people seem to have such difficulty in understanding that one simply can't use statements from the same book, -in this case the bible, -a book they believe is written by the god -to try & verify that same god !
We are right back to that "circular reasoning" bit! circular reasoning: definition. "a use of reason in which the premises depends on or is equivalent to the conclusion, a method of false logic by which "this is used to prove that, and that is used to prove this" example: Jesus came back from the dead
" I know that Jesus came back from the dead ." "Because a book in the bible says so."
" The bible says Jesus came back from the dead ." "Therefore, I know that Jesus came back from the dead"
How about this one, I know Jesus is risen from the dead, because I've felt Gods love through him within my heart! I was once dead, now I'm alive! Is this circular reasoning? Because that's how I see it!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 22, 2015 0:36:14 GMT -5
Why do people seem to have such difficulty in understanding that one simply can't use statements from the same book, -in this case the bible, -a book they believe is written by the god -to try & verify that same god !
We are right back to that "circular reasoning" bit! circular reasoning: definition. "a use of reason in which the premises depends on or is equivalent to the conclusion, a method of false logic by which "this is used to prove that, and that is used to prove this" example: Jesus came back from the dead
" I know that Jesus came back from the dead ." "Because a book in the bible says so."
" The bible says Jesus came back from the dead ." "Therefore, I know that Jesus came back from the dead"
How about this one, I know Jesus is risen from the dead, because I've felt Gods love through him within my heart! I was once dead, now I'm alive! Is this circular reasoning? Because that's how I see it! No, it is not logical fallacy of circular reasoning; it is the logical fallacy of Appeal to Emotion An Appeal to Emotion is a fallacy with the following structure:
Favorable emotions are associated with X. Therefore, X is true.
This fallacy is committed when someone manipulates peoples' emotions in order to get them to accept a claim as being true. More formally, this sort of "reasoning" involves the substitution of various means of producing strong emotions in place of evidence for a claim.
If the favorable emotions associated with X influence the person to accept X as true because they "feel good about X," then he has fallen prey to the fallacy. Google Logical Fallacies to see what I mean.
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Post by maryhig on May 22, 2015 0:43:52 GMT -5
How about this one, I know Jesus is risen from the dead, because I've felt Gods love through him within my heart! I was once dead, now I'm alive! Is this circular reasoning? Because that's how I see it! No, it is not logical fallacy of circular reasoning; it is the logical fallacy of Appeal to Emotion An Appeal to Emotion is a fallacy with the following structure:
Favorable emotions are associated with X. Therefore, X is true.
This fallacy is committed when someone manipulates peoples' emotions in order to get them to accept a claim as being true. More formally, this sort of "reasoning" involves the substitution of various means of producing strong emotions in place of evidence for a claim.
If the favorable emotions associated with X influence the person to accept X as true because they "feel good about X," then he has fallen prey to the fallacy. Google Logical Fallacies to see what I mean.
How about me talking to my son about God, a question he asked and I couldn't explain. Then a few hours later, someone giving him not only the answer, but also the question he asked earlier. Without even knowing what we had been talking about. Because this happened to me and my son. So I can't deny God! I know he's there! So what type of fallacy would that be under?
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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 11:12:17 GMT -5
No, it is not logical fallacy of circular reasoning; it is the logical fallacy of Appeal to Emotion An Appeal to Emotion is a fallacy with the following structure:
Favorable emotions are associated with X. Therefore, X is true.
This fallacy is committed when someone manipulates peoples' emotions in order to get them to accept a claim as being true. More formally, this sort of "reasoning" involves the substitution of various means of producing strong emotions in place of evidence for a claim.
If the favorable emotions associated with X influence the person to accept X as true because they "feel good about X," then he has fallen prey to the fallacy. Google Logical Fallacies to see what I mean.
How about me talking to my son about God, a question he asked and I couldn't explain. Then a few hours later, someone giving him not only the answer, but also the question he asked earlier. Without even knowing what we had been talking about. Because this happened to me and my son. So I can't deny God! I know he's there! ? Maryhig, I have long ago reasoned that those who believe in God will interpret these kinds of things as proof of a God, when I would just see it as a coincidence. I think there is a very major difference in the way non believers process these kinds of things in comparison to believers. I'm not saying that to negate what you said, I just think it's fact that the two groups seem to process same events quite differently. Right or wrong, we just think differently. I don't have the ability to just have faith in something being true for the most part. I need proof, tangible proof. I don't have to experience it to believe it's true, but I do need to have concrete proof. So what type of fallacy would that be under
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Post by maryhig on May 22, 2015 12:33:21 GMT -5
How about me talking to my son about God, a question he asked and I couldn't explain. Then a few hours later, someone giving him not only the answer, but also the question he asked earlier. Without even knowing what we had been talking about. Because this happened to me and my son. So I can't deny God! I know he's there! ? Maryhig, I have long ago reasoned that those who believe in God will interpret these kinds of things as proof of a God, when I would just see it as a coincidence. I think there is a very major difference in the way non believers process these kinds of things in comparison to believers. I'm not saying that to negate what you said, I just think it's fact that the two groups seem to process same events quite differently. Right or wrong, we just think differently. I don't have the ability to just have faith in something being true for the most part. I need proof, tangible proof. I don't have to experience it to believe it's true, but I do need to have concrete proof. So what type of fallacy would that be under Snow how can it be a coincidence? My son asked me "how is God everywhere?" And 3 to 4 hours later in the meeting my uncle whilst reading the bible stopped, pointed at my son and said " good question, how is God everywhere? " and then answered him, neither of us had discussed it since our conversation earlier. And I left the house with my son and he hadn't talked about it to anyone! I know God is there, it's no fallacy whatsoever! It may be to you but I'm the one who's lived it! I have complete faith in God! Furthermore I've had a whole lot more that happened to me too! You have no idea! But one thing I do know. God is everywhere!
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