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Post by faune on May 18, 2015 11:34:59 GMT -5
I noticed that Maryhig said she did not know anybody who was leading a double life within the 2x2's, but perhaps she's not aware of the number of cases of convicted child molesters among the workers and some friends as found on WINGS? However, there were also workers who escaped going to jail for their crimes, like Ira Hobb, the past overseer in Texas, due to friends refusing to testify against him for fear of being shunned by the others or put out of the faith. wingsfortruth.info/ wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-offenders/ Actually I said that, not Maryhig. I'm not sure if Maryhig has ever met any of the "2x2's". I am aware that there are a number of people who have done evil things, and were not what they were professing themselves to be, and it grieves me that this would be so. However, that is a very small minority. I know a lot of sincere, faithful, honest people who are enjoying serving God. We have been advised to report anything we know about criminal activities to the police, and I would have no fears of being shunned for telling the truth, but I have never come across anything criminal. Faune responded... Felicity ~ Thanks for correcting my error here. I will make a corrected notation on my earlier post. I must have gotten you both confused by the posting? I'm glad you would not fear being shunned for telling the truth. However, we are talking about a number of workers here who are convicted CSA offenders and not just a few. Also, some friends have been convicted of the same within the 2x2's and some of them elders within the church. So, some are definitely living double lives, but perhaps not all have been caught or turn into authorities for their crimes? For example: www.votisalive.com/content/update-50-plus-year-pedophile-ira-hobbs
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Post by faune on May 18, 2015 11:45:16 GMT -5
I noticed that Maryhig said she did not know anybody who was leading a double life within the 2x2's, but perhaps she's not aware of the number of cases of convicted child molesters among the workers and some friends as found on WINGS? However, there were also workers who escaped going to jail for their crimes, like Ira Hobb, the past overseer in Texas, due to friends refusing to testify against him for fear of being shunned by the others or put out of the faith. wingsfortruth.info/ wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-offenders/ No, I said the people I've spoken to on here don't seem cult like, and our people are in that cult list too and were definitely not a cult. There are child abusers everywhere, in Christian churches also. And as disgusting as it is, they're not only on the f&w's. I do feel it's wrong to cover anything like that up, but the f&w's I've spoken to on here have said it should be reported. I don't know a lot about the f&w's fellowship. But the people I have spoken to on this site seem genuinely nice people. I don't think it's nice to insult people because of their faith! Maryhig ~ Sorry for my mistake, I will definitely correct my earlier posting. However, I just want to comment that the friends on this board are really sincere folks and I doubt they would consider covering up such a crime as CSA, if found within their own area, whether worker or friend. However, there has been more than a few workers convicted for this crime of CSA over the years and perhaps a number who were never caught due to people not reporting these offenses to authorities. In some cases, they were reported to the overseers, but the offenders were just moved to another unsuspecting area to repeat their crimes. Personally, that doesn't speak to me of accountability or a love for truth or ethical behavior for overseers to do such things in the past, but it was a common practice until the law came down on them in recent years. How many lives were scarred by such negligence remains to be seen?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 11:48:41 GMT -5
Actually I said that, not Maryhig. I'm not sure if Maryhig has ever met any of the "2x2's". I am aware that there are a number of people who have done evil things, and were not what they were professing themselves to be, and it grieves me that this would be so. However, that is a very small minority. I know a lot of sincere, faithful, honest people who are enjoying serving God. We have been advised to report anything we know about criminal activities to the police, and I would have no fears of being shunned for telling the truth, but I have never come across anything criminal. Felicity ~ Thanks for correcting my error here. I will make a corrected notation on my earlier post. I must have gotten you both confused by the posting? I'm glad you would not fear being shunned for telling the truth. However, we are talking about a number of workers here who are convicted CSA offenders and not just a few. Also, some friends have been convicted of the same within the 2x2's and some of them elders within the church. So, some are definitely living double lives, but perhaps not all have been caught or turn into authorities for their crimes? For example: Anyone committing CSA is probably living a double life, no matter what their religious beliefs or what standards they're claiming to live up to. It's hardly something that a person would openly admit to. However, I do not think that would justify saying that "many live double lives". Some do, or did and have got caught. That doesn't mean it's common practice. Like I said, anyone leading a double life is ultimately fooling themselves - it's not possible to deceive God.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 18, 2015 11:56:32 GMT -5
Hi Faune. I agree with Brick, this post is as true today as it was in 2008; Almost a whole page of OH NO NO my church is not a cult --- You can't say that Oh No Oh, by all means, you can say that. And in saying it, you know that the term is offensive to members of the fellowship, whether it fits or not. Now with all that said, I get the distinct impression that the objective of those who openly call the 2x2 fellowship a "cult" is to cause offense and in some way, elevate their status above those brainwashed simpletons who are still in the "cult." This brainwashed simpleton offers you a simple reminder: Matthew 18:6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.And also, Matthew 12:33-35 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.So you believe our fellowship is a cult, eh? You know the term is offensive to those who participate, but you deign to share your derision for us by posting insulting commentary. Well, thank you for sharing your enlightenment. You have provided a label for yourself as well. I'd include the rest of the verses in Matthew 18; People who use words like "heresy" "cult" and "cult-like" about 2x2s really don't seem care that they are offensive, no, it seems they deliberately use those words in the way Brick describes. They seem proud and unapologetic. They go with accusations and judgments where even angels fear to tread: "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
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Post by faune on May 18, 2015 12:14:33 GMT -5
Felicity ~ Thanks for correcting my error here. I will make a corrected notation on my earlier post. I must have gotten you both confused by the posting? I'm glad you would not fear being shunned for telling the truth. However, we are talking about a number of workers here who are convicted CSA offenders and not just a few. Also, some friends have been convicted of the same within the 2x2's and some of them elders within the church. So, some are definitely living double lives, but perhaps not all have been caught or turn into authorities for their crimes? For example: www.votisalive.com/content/update-50-plus-year-pedophile-ira-hobbs Anyone committing CSA is probably living a double life, no matter what their religious beliefs or what standards they're claiming to live up to. It's hardly something that a person would openly admit to. However, I do not think that would justify saying that "many live double lives". Some do, or did and have got caught. That doesn't mean it's common practice. Like I said, anyone leading a double life is ultimately fooling themselves - it's not possible to deceive God. Felicity ~ I really don't think the statement only pertains to CSA, which is definitely a double life and LIE tied up on one! Some friends may put on a go-to-meeting face and be entirely different at home or in the work place? Although there may not be the strident dress requirement for females over the last decade, in the past that wasn't the case. Also, the letting up on bans within the homes like TV, radios, computers, etc., is a major change in the surface conformity department. It's just that any group that professes to be the "one and only way of salvation" and the Perfect Way, one might expect a higher standard of living and behaving than manifested by some workers and friends over the years? Since outside churches are not even acknowledged as being Christian churches according to the 2x2's, they definitely put themselves on a higher pedestal than the rest of society, so why not portray the same in moral and ethical behavior, especially amongst the workers who call themselves God's anointed servants? The past performance of cover-ups of CSA scandals and moving offending workers around to different areas to cover up their crimes is surely not praiseworthy of those in leadership! Now that the law is coming down on them, they are finally seeing the need to cooperate with civil authorities, which is a step in the right direction, IMHO.
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Post by maryhig on May 18, 2015 12:24:18 GMT -5
Hi Faune. I agree with Brick, this post is as true today as it was in 2008; Oh, by all means, you can say that. And in saying it, you know that the term is offensive to members of the fellowship, whether it fits or not. Now with all that said, I get the distinct impression that the objective of those who openly call the 2x2 fellowship a "cult" is to cause offense and in some way, elevate their status above those brainwashed simpletons who are still in the "cult." This brainwashed simpleton offers you a simple reminder: Matthew 18:6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.And also, Matthew 12:33-35 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.So you believe our fellowship is a cult, eh? You know the term is offensive to those who participate, but you deign to share your derision for us by posting insulting commentary. Well, thank you for sharing your enlightenment. You have provided a label for yourself as well. I'd include the rest of the verses in Matthew 18; People who use words like "heresy" "cult" and "cult-like" about 2x2s really don't seem care that they are offensive, no, it seems they deliberately use those words in the way Brick describes. They seem proud and unapologetic. They go with accusations and judgments where even angels fear to tread: "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jesse, I would like to add this also! Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. I would say that there are faults in every religion, none are perfect, there's good and bad in all, if its against the law then it should be reported. God judges all our hearts. Anything done in wickedness will not be hidden. But to be labeled as a cult is hurtful. Also, I can't believe that people would label others as a cult because they don't believe in the trinity!
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Post by faune on May 18, 2015 12:27:04 GMT -5
Hi Faune. I agree with Brick, this post is as true today as it was in 2008; Oh, by all means, you can say that. And in saying it, you know that the term is offensive to members of the fellowship, whether it fits or not. Now with all that said, I get the distinct impression that the objective of those who openly call the 2x2 fellowship a "cult" is to cause offense and in some way, elevate their status above those brainwashed simpletons who are still in the "cult." This brainwashed simpleton offers you a simple reminder: Matthew 18:6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.And also, Matthew 12:33-35 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.So you believe our fellowship is a cult, eh? You know the term is offensive to those who participate, but you deign to share your derision for us by posting insulting commentary. Well, thank you for sharing your enlightenment. You have provided a label for yourself as well. I'd include the rest of the verses in Matthew 18; People who use words like "heresy" "cult" and "cult-like" about 2x2s really don't seem care that they are offensive, no, it seems they deliberately use those words in the way Brick describes. They seem proud and unapologetic. They go with accusations and judgments where even angels fear to tread: "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jesse ~ No problem! You have a right to your opinion as much as I have to mine, based upon what I have read in ex-members testimonials and seen for myself over my professing years, which is why I'm an ex-member today. However, perhaps it would be better to refer to controlling and manipulative behaviors by some church leaders as spiritually abusive instead of cultish, due to the negative connotations? In addition, if you look at my referenced site in the O.P., be sure to check out the DISCLAIMER under Bible-cults and Isms which clarifies the difference between destructive groups and fringe groups of Christianity in what they promote their own version of the gospel message. Also, I want to stress that cultish or aberrant groups are labeled such due to behaviors manifested within these groups and not based upon theology. However, within groups classified here under Bible cults, there are differences noted in their teaching about Christ and His gospel message compared to "worldly" churches. It's because of this fact that theology is even discussed in this section, but it's definitely not the defining factor as to whether you believe in the Trinity concept or not. www.culthelp.info/index.php
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 12:27:12 GMT -5
Actually I said that, not Maryhig. I'm not sure if Maryhig has ever met any of the "2x2's". I am aware that there are a number of people who have done evil things, and were not what they were professing themselves to be, and it grieves me that this would be so. However, that is a very small minority. I know a lot of sincere, faithful, honest people who are enjoying serving God. We have been advised to report anything we know about criminal activities to the police, and I would have no fears of being shunned for telling the truth, but I have never come across anything criminal. Jean Austin was the only victim to come forward regarding Ira Hobbs, but he couldn't be prosecuted because of the Statue of Limitations in her state. Unfortunately, the majority of friends chose to keep silent and to hid these incidents under a rug to protect the Perfect Image of the 2x2's, which also is criminal, IMHO. Knowing and doing nothing about it is really not an option for change. Felicity ~ Thanks for correcting my error here. I will make a corrected notation on my earlier post. I must have gotten you both confused by the posting? I'm glad you would not fear being shunned for telling the truth. However, we are talking about a number of workers here who are convicted CSA offenders and not just a few. Also, some friends have been convicted of the same within the 2x2's and some of them elders within the church. So, some are definitely living double lives, but perhaps not all have been caught or turn into authorities for their crimes? For example: www.votisalive.com/content/update-50-plus-year-pedophile-ira-hobbsFaune, please edit this post - you have added your comments to my quote above - my quote stopped at "I have never come across anything criminal" - the rest of the comment is your words, not mine. Thanks.
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Post by faune on May 18, 2015 12:34:23 GMT -5
Felicity ~ Thanks for correcting my error here. I will make a corrected notation on my earlier post. I must have gotten you both confused by the posting? I'm glad you would not fear being shunned for telling the truth. However, we are talking about a number of workers here who are convicted CSA offenders and not just a few. Also, some friends have been convicted of the same within the 2x2's and some of them elders within the church. So, some are definitely living double lives, but perhaps not all have been caught or turn into authorities for their crimes? For example: www.votisalive.com/content/update-50-plus-year-pedophile-ira-hobbs Faune, please edit this post - you have added your comments to my quote above - my quote stopped at "I have never come across anything criminal" - the rest of the comment is your words, not mine. Thanks. Felicity ~ Thanks again! I will edit this mistake, too. It seems the lines run together on my computer screen and I don't see the dividing line clearly. Perhaps I should try another "computer skin" for clearer perception?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 12:50:26 GMT -5
Anyone committing CSA is probably living a double life, no matter what their religious beliefs or what standards they're claiming to live up to. It's hardly something that a person would openly admit to. However, I do not think that would justify saying that "many live double lives". Some do, or did and have got caught. That doesn't mean it's common practice. Like I said, anyone leading a double life is ultimately fooling themselves - it's not possible to deceive God. Felicity ~ I really don't think the statement only pertains to CSA, which is definitely a double life and LIE tied up on one! Some friends may put on a go-to-meeting face and be entirely different at home or in the work place? Although there may not be the strident dress requirement for females over the last decade, in the past that wasn't the case. Also, the letting up on bans within the homes like TV, radios, computers, etc., is a major change in the surface conformity department. It's just that any group that professes to be the "one and only way of salvation" and the Perfect Way, one might expect a higher standard of living and behaving than manifested by some workers and friends over the years? Since outside churches are not even acknowledged as being Christian churches according to the 2x2's, they definitely put themselves on a higher pedestal than the rest of society, so why not portray the same in moral and ethical behavior, especially amongst the workers who call themselves God's anointed servants? The past performance of cover-ups of CSA scandals and moving offending workers around to different areas to cover up their crimes is surely not praiseworthy of those in leadership! Now that the law is coming down on them, they are finally seeing the need to cooperate with civil authorities, which is a step in the right direction, IMHO.
Yes, I'm sure the statement was intended to cover any type of deception. However, you were actually the one that brought Wings and CSA into the conversation, not me Maybe some friends do have a Sunday face and a weekday face. If that is the case, then it is sad, and hypocritical. Anyone in that situation is only deceiving themselves. I do not know anyone with a TV or radio, but the position on having those things hasn't changed. A high standard is expected from anyone who claims to be following Jesus. However, endless dwelling on mistakes that happened in the past is probably not very Christ-like either. There is definitely a better understanding of how to deal with criminal issues in this day and age.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 12:52:10 GMT -5
Faune, please edit this post - you have added your comments to my quote above - my quote stopped at "I have never come across anything criminal" - the rest of the comment is your words, not mine. Thanks. Felicity ~ Thanks again! I will edit this mistake, too. It seems the lines run together on my computer screen and I don't see the dividing line clearly. Perhaps I should try another "computer skin" for clearer perception? Thanks. When it comes to computer issues you'd be better asking someone a bit more technical - I'm kind of clueless there
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Post by maryhig on May 18, 2015 13:03:48 GMT -5
Felicity ~ Thanks again! I will edit this mistake, too. It seems the lines run together on my computer screen and I don't see the dividing line clearly. Perhaps I should try another "computer skin" for clearer perception? Thanks. When it comes to computer issues you'd be better asking someone a bit more technical - I'm kind of clueless there I use my phone, it's even worse! I have to edit my posts all the time because of spelling mistakes with the predictive texting!
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Post by snow on May 18, 2015 13:09:44 GMT -5
Fixit ~ Atheists don't believe in the existence of any Creator God, so it stands to reason they would be more restrained in any condemnation of the 2x2 church or any of these fringe groups, which have distinctive qualities setting them apart from mainline Christianity. For instance, check out these Eight Aspects of Aberrational Groups under the Spiritually Abusive Church description found under Bible-based cults for more clarification. Do you see anything that might apply to the 2x2's in this list? Be sure to be honest with yourself in evaluating this data since information is the key to revelation. That's kind of you to encourage me out of a dangerous cult Faune. It seems I need a revelation? If I did leave I wouldn't be jumping into a Trinitarian cult, or a Calvinist cult, or an Evangelical cult, or a Pentecostal cult. Or a JW, Mormon, SDA, or Scientology cult. So you can see I don't have many options. Perhaps the F&W will need to put up with me for a bit longer? Awe come on Fixit, you'd be more than welcome in the non believers 'cult'. But seriously, if someone is happy in the church they are in, what difference does it make what others think of it?
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Post by snow on May 18, 2015 13:18:07 GMT -5
That's kind of you to encourage me out of a dangerous cult Faune. It seems I need a revelation? If I did leave I wouldn't be jumping into a Trinitarian cult, or a Calvinist cult, or an Evangelical cult, or a Pentecostal cult. Or a JW, Mormon, SDA, or Scientology cult. So you can see I don't have many options. Perhaps the F&W will need to put up with me for a bit longer? Fixit ~ The 2x2's are not a dangerous cult like some of these Mad Hatter groups, but it is a predictable one in what can be expected from leadership. However, it's interesting to note that Christianity was considered a cult in its earlier days until it was legalized as the religion of Rome in 381 A.D. However, during the early years, there were a number of fringe groups coming into existence along with their own gospel message, especially among the Gnostics. Even what was considered "orthodox Christianity" during the first century got obliterated by the RCC by the 4th century and the gap continued to widen over the succeeding centuries that followed along with the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Witch Hunts that became phenomenal during the Middle Ages in the name of RELIGION. It's no wonder people have their conception of religion today compared to its history down through the ages! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InquisitionAnd, as you know, Christianity came from the beliefs of 3 previous 'cults'. The Trinity is a pagan idea and it makes sense it came out of Rome because Rome was very pagan in their beliefs. The Jewish Christians would never dream of a triune God. But the Roman Christians would and did and fought to get that belief mainstream with the backing of the Roman army and the Roman Emperor. I find it so amazing that Protestants that don't like the RCC have fallen for the RCC teaching of the triune god. And now Protestants are fighting among themselves about it.
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Post by maryhig on May 18, 2015 13:18:09 GMT -5
No, I said the people I've spoken to on here don't seem cult like, and our people are in that cult list too and were definitely not a cult. There are child abusers everywhere, in Christian churches also. And as disgusting as it is, they're not only on the f&w's. I do feel it's wrong to cover anything like that up, but the f&w's I've spoken to on here have said it should be reported. I don't know a lot about the f&w's fellowship. But the people I have spoken to on this site seem genuinely nice people. I don't think it's nice to insult people because of their faith! Maryhig ~ Sorry for my mistake, I will definitely correct my earlier posting. However, I just want to comment that the friends on this board are really sincere folks and I doubt they would consider covering up such a crime as CSA, if found within their own area, whether worker or friend. However, there has been more than a few workers convicted for this crime of CSA over the years and perhaps a number who were never caught due to people not reporting these offenses to authorities. In some cases, they were reported to the overseers, but the offenders were just moved to another unsuspecting area to repeat their crimes. Personally, that doesn't speak to me of accountability or a love for truth or ethical behavior for overseers to do such things in the past, but it was a common practice until the law came down on them in recent years. How many lives were scarred by such negligence remains to be seen? I missed this, see it's my phone thank you, I do believe all CSA should be reported wherever it is. I would report it directly to the police if I found out about anyone I knew was doing such a thing. It's vile. But it is happening in all religions, politics, in schools etc. And I bet a whole lot of them hide it because of the publicity not just the f&w's. Which is not only against the law, but it is a sin before God! It's disgusting to hurt anyone but an innocent child is stomach churning and horrific!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 18, 2015 13:49:38 GMT -5
Another thread that has all the doctrinal elements of the TMB Trinity; 2x2 CSA, 2x2 heresy, and 2x2 cultish behavior.
Every TMB thread seems to get there.
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 15:11:18 GMT -5
That's kind of you to encourage me out of a dangerous cult Faune. It seems I need a revelation? If I did leave I wouldn't be jumping into a Trinitarian cult, or a Calvinist cult, or an Evangelical cult, or a Pentecostal cult. Or a JW, Mormon, SDA, or Scientology cult. So you can see I don't have many options. Perhaps the F&W will need to put up with me for a bit longer? Fixit ~ The 2x2's are not a dangerous cult like some of these Mad Hatter groups, but it is a predictable one in what can be expected from leadership. However, it's interesting to note that Christianity was considered a cult in its earlier days until it was legalized as the religion of Rome in 381 A.D. However, during the early years, there were a number of fringe groups coming into existence along with their own gospel message, especially among the Gnostics. Even what was considered "orthodox Christianity" during the first century got obliterated by the RCC by the 4th century and the gap continued to widen over the succeeding centuries that followed along with the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Witch Hunts that became phenomenal during the Middle Ages in the name of RELIGION. It's no wonder people have their conception of religion today compared to its history down through the ages! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition"Orthodox" Trinitarian Christianity resulted in the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Witch Hunts that became phenomenal during the Middle Ages in the name of RELIGION. I would rather be labelled as a cult member than be associated with the evil done in the name of "orthodox" Christianity.
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Post by christiansburg on May 18, 2015 18:13:38 GMT -5
I realize some folks may get put off by using the term "Bible cult" to define the 2x2's. However, the thing to remember is that we are looking at BEHAVIORS here and not theology. However, it's often the case that the teachings of these cultish groups are also distorted to suit their own purpose from what is found in scripture. Here's an article to give you some idea of what these BEHAVIORAL TRAITS encompass so as you can see the correlation here between the 2x2's and other groups similar to them. Any comments as to which characteristics stand out the most to you from this list? www.culthelp.info/index.php…There may be no cult or recognized religious organization who has distorted the Scriptures to suit their own ideas more than the Catholic.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 18, 2015 21:15:27 GMT -5
I noticed that Maryhig said she did not know anybody who was leading a double life within the 2x2's, but perhaps she's not aware of the number of cases of convicted child molesters among the workers and some friends as found on WINGS? However, there were also workers who escaped going to jail for their crimes, like Ira Hobb, the past overseer in Texas, due to friends refusing to testify against him for fear of being shunned by the others or put out of the faith. wingsfortruth.info/ wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-offenders/ Actually I said that, not Maryhig. I'm not sure if Maryhig has ever met any of the "2x2's". I am aware that there are a number of people who have done evil things, and were not what they were professing themselves to be, and it grieves me that this would be so. However, that is a very small minority. I know a lot of sincere, faithful, honest people who are enjoying serving God. We have been advised to report anything we know about criminal activities to the police, and I would have no fears of being shunned for telling the truth, but I have never come across anything criminal. Felicity you don't seem to be aware of the amount of CSA that has actually happened in the F&W. I think you still have rose coloured glasses on. As to honesty, well you only have to look at the way workers have been sent from one state to the next to cover up issues. Look at what happened in Alberta and what is happening now in Vietnam.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 18, 2015 21:23:38 GMT -5
Felicity ~ I really don't think the statement only pertains to CSA, which is definitely a double life and LIE tied up on one! Some friends may put on a go-to-meeting face and be entirely different at home or in the work place? Although there may not be the strident dress requirement for females over the last decade, in the past that wasn't the case. Also, the letting up on bans within the homes like TV, radios, computers, etc., is a major change in the surface conformity department. It's just that any group that professes to be the "one and only way of salvation" and the Perfect Way, one might expect a higher standard of living and behaving than manifested by some workers and friends over the years? Since outside churches are not even acknowledged as being Christian churches according to the 2x2's, they definitely put themselves on a higher pedestal than the rest of society, so why not portray the same in moral and ethical behavior, especially amongst the workers who call themselves God's anointed servants? The past performance of cover-ups of CSA scandals and moving offending workers around to different areas to cover up their crimes is surely not praiseworthy of those in leadership! Now that the law is coming down on them, they are finally seeing the need to cooperate with civil authorities, which is a step in the right direction, IMHO.
Yes, I'm sure the statement was intended to cover any type of deception. However, you were actually the one that brought Wings and CSA into the conversation, not me Maybe some friends do have a Sunday face and a weekday face. If that is the case, then it is sad, and hypocritical. Anyone in that situation is only deceiving themselves. I do not know anyone with a TV or radio, but the position on having those things hasn't changed. A high standard is expected from anyone who claims to be following Jesus. However, endless dwelling on mistakes that happened in the past is probably not very Christ-like either. There is definitely a better understanding of how to deal with criminal issues in this day and age. Felicity, did you say "I do not know anyone with a TV or radio, " ? Are you serious you don't know anyone of the friends that have a radio ?
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Post by faune on May 18, 2015 22:27:34 GMT -5
Fixit ~ The 2x2's are not a dangerous cult like some of these Mad Hatter groups, but it is a predictable one in what can be expected from leadership. However, it's interesting to note that Christianity was considered a cult in its earlier days until it was legalized as the religion of Rome in 381 A.D. However, during the early years, there were a number of fringe groups coming into existence along with their own gospel message, especially among the Gnostics. Even what was considered "orthodox Christianity" during the first century got obliterated by the RCC by the 4th century and the gap continued to widen over the succeeding centuries that followed along with the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Witch Hunts that became phenomenal during the Middle Ages in the name of RELIGION. It's no wonder people have their conception of religion today compared to its history down through the ages! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition "Orthodox" Trinitarian Christianity resulted in the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Witch Hunts that became phenomenal during the Middle Ages in the name of RELIGION. I would rather be labeled as a cult member than be associated with the evil done in the name of "orthodox" Christianity. Fixit ~ Actually I share your opinion when it comes down to the horrors promoted by the RCC to promote their views upon others through coercion and bully tactics. If anything speaks of a dangerous cult, such behavior surely fits the bill. IMHO? Personally, I cannot envision God putting his stamp of approval on such behavior anymore than the O.T. accounts of genocide of men, women, and children who didn't embrace the God of Israel. Honestly, it's stories of such mayhem recorded in the O.T. that causes me to pause and consider if man didn't have some input in these "inspired words" more than God Himself? The atrocities in the name of religion under the RCC is another example of the same mindset of another group that claims to be the "one true church." Therefore, in my own mind, any group that makes such outrageous claims sends up Red Flags in my mind whether they are small sects or churches with million of followers. I honestly believe that Jesus never came to set up a specific church group, but to offer salvation to all who would embrace his sacrifice on the Cross in their behalf and accept His forgiveness of their sins and follow His teachings. I feel Religion has just muddied the waters with all their conditions of salvation and hoops to jump through to be counted acceptable, which has nothing to so with the gospel of grace extended to " whosoever would believe." (John 3:16) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_true_church
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 3:14:06 GMT -5
Yes, I'm sure the statement was intended to cover any type of deception. However, you were actually the one that brought Wings and CSA into the conversation, not me Maybe some friends do have a Sunday face and a weekday face. If that is the case, then it is sad, and hypocritical. Anyone in that situation is only deceiving themselves. I do not know anyone with a TV or radio, but the position on having those things hasn't changed. A high standard is expected from anyone who claims to be following Jesus. However, endless dwelling on mistakes that happened in the past is probably not very Christ-like either. There is definitely a better understanding of how to deal with criminal issues in this day and age. Felicity, did you say "I do not know anyone with a TV or radio, " ? Are you serious you don't know anyone of the friends that have a radio ? Of course I'm serious. I don't know anyone who has a radio in their house. Obviously radio's are built into cars nowadays, but I don't know anyone who actually uses them. There's one in my car but I've never turned it on and I don't even know how.
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Post by matisse on May 19, 2015 3:31:35 GMT -5
Yes, religion has muddied the waters. Christians have also done a lot of good down through the ages - they played a major role in the abolition of slavery. For generations, in the US, many Christians used the Bible to justify slavery. The majority of slave owners were Christian.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 3:38:18 GMT -5
Actually I said that, not Maryhig. I'm not sure if Maryhig has ever met any of the "2x2's". I am aware that there are a number of people who have done evil things, and were not what they were professing themselves to be, and it grieves me that this would be so. However, that is a very small minority. I know a lot of sincere, faithful, honest people who are enjoying serving God. We have been advised to report anything we know about criminal activities to the police, and I would have no fears of being shunned for telling the truth, but I have never come across anything criminal. Felicity you don't seem to be aware of the amount of CSA that has actually happened in the F&W. I think you still have rose coloured glasses on. As to honesty, well you only have to look at the way workers have been sent from one state to the next to cover up issues. Look at what happened in Alberta and what is happening now in Vietnam. Roselyn are you aware that the majority of friends and workers are not either victims or perpetrators of CSA? I do not have rose coloured glasses on, but I can't see things that aren't there (or here!).
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 3:38:43 GMT -5
Yes, religion has muddied the waters. Christians have also done a lot of good down through the ages - they played a major role in the abolition of slavery. In the United States, many Christians used the Bible to justify slavery. The majority of slave owners were Christian. Matisse, many people use Gods word in the wrong way, to suit themselves and to hurt people. But Jesus said love your neighbour as yourself. He didn't say anything about the colour of the skin. Racism is sickening. God loves all of us equally! And we should show love and care equally to our fellow man. Our neighbour is anyone we come across in that day. I don't even notice anyones skin colour, I just see the person. I don't understand all that!
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Post by matisse on May 19, 2015 3:47:57 GMT -5
In the United States, many Christians used the Bible to justify slavery. The majority of slave owners were Christian. Matisse, many people use Gods word in the wrong way, to suit themselves and to hurt people. But Jesus said love your neighbour as yourself. He didn't say anything about the colour of the skin. Racism is sickening. God loves all of us equally! And we should show love and care equally to our fellow man. Our neighbour is anyone we come across in that day. I don't even notice anyones skin colour, I just see the person. I don't understand all that! Back then, slavery was justified as being a good thing for the slaves...."benevolent" even. Just think, the African people who were brought to the U.S. as slaves were exposed to Christianity. I expect that many of the Christians who believed this way were as sincere in their beliefs as you are.
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 3:54:08 GMT -5
Matisse, many people use Gods word in the wrong way, to suit themselves and to hurt people. But Jesus said love your neighbour as yourself. He didn't say anything about the colour of the skin. Racism is sickening. God loves all of us equally! And we should show love and care equally to our fellow man. Our neighbour is anyone we come across in that day. I don't even notice anyones skin colour, I just see the person. I don't understand all that! Back then, slavery was justified as being a good thing for the slaves...."benevolent" even. Just think, the African people who were brought to the U.S. as slaves were exposed to Christianity. I expect that many of the Christians who believed this way were as sincere in their beliefs as you are. They didn't know God, or they wouldn't have done it! They would have had compassion if they truly believed. They just used God to hide behind and God will judge all that do this! Cruelty comes from Satan. Many people profess to be Christian and to believe in God. But if they have this in their hearts then they don't know him at all! And they are not his. Gods people should care for everyone. God loved the world, he sent his only begotten son. He didn't only send him for just some of us, but all of us! Its up to us whether we believe!
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Post by matisse on May 19, 2015 4:10:07 GMT -5
Back then, slavery was justified as being a good thing for the slaves...."benevolent" even. Just think, the African people who were brought to the U.S. as slaves were exposed to Christianity. I expect that many of the Christians who believed this way were as sincere in their beliefs as you are. They didn't know God, or they wouldn't have done it! They would have had compassion if they truly believed. They just used God to hide behind and God will judge all that do this! Cruelty comes from Satan. Many people profess to be Christian and to believe in God. But if they have this in their hearts then they don't know him at all! And they are not his. Gods people should care for everyone. God loved the world, he sent his only begotten son. He didn't only send him for just some of us, but all of us! Its up to us whether we believe! They saw slavery as "compassionate". Many believed Africans were not fully human and would benefit from the structured existence of slavery. The Bible - including the New Testament - refers to slavery and does not speak out against it. Can you see how the Bible could be seen as supporting slavery? Many descendents of slaves are Christian today...a "testiment" to the prevelant belief back then that slavery gave the enslaved Africans a chance to embrace Christianity that they otherwise would not have had. Would you deny them that? You are passing judgement on an awful lot of Christians. God and the Bible can be (and has been) used, with all sincerity, to "justify" all kinds of things.
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