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Post by faune on Jun 19, 2015 9:22:01 GMT -5
After my excommunication, I considered as many options as possible for me to think of, even "confessing" to that which I knew to be untrue. In discussing every option with Ylva, she said "that is one thing you simply cannot do."
Then, making every effort to support the group I possibly could, female "workers" called Ylva, tellin her she had to leave me as she was just too close to me to see how wicked I really was. For her, that was the "last straw..." and she left the group. Not one bit of care for her nor the two professing children involved. Not one bit. We all began to see things very clearly after that, recognizing there would be no repentance in hearts as hard as that. Now it is very easy to empathize with others experiencing much the same calloused indifference after a life of faithful loyal service giving my best in that "work."
Who dares say someone did not give the very last of their health, strength and youth to that cause? Who? Then the betrayal that followed, still unbelievable after all thes years. Who dares say Ylva did not give her best also? People NEED to know what can happen to them if they run afoul of the dictators running the show who are so far from the example of Christ they claim to follow. Sad sigh! Thankfully she has gone to her reward, only to be lied about at her memorial service, by, yes, "a worker" claiming not to even know her. A worker who spent many days in our home in the U.S.A. What a wonderful "Christian testimony!" expected to just be forgotten.
"Only remembered..." Dennis ~ Your description of "calloused indifference" describes it well. Although it has been over 20 years since I left the group, it still saddens my heart to reflect back to those days of trying to cope with such an attitude within the meetings. I never experienced anything like that since on the outside and for that I'm very grateful. It makes me wonder if the exclusiveness of the meetings didn't contribute a lot to such insensitive behavior lacking in human kindness? Perhaps the real meaning behind the parable of the "Good Samaritan" was something those presumptuous folks missed out on in their application of scripture to their everyday lives?
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Post by faune on Jun 19, 2015 9:59:59 GMT -5
Rational ~ I left the meetings when staying seemed no more an option for me, due to feeling it was pointless to remain. At the time I wrote my Exit Letter, it was more like a catharsis for me to put my feelings and impressions down on paper. However, looking back, it was a waste of time and pointless considering the indifference experienced by me and my family. One response received from the elder's wife convinced me of this fact when my letter was returned unopened and marked, "Refused, Return to Sender." I never bothered to contact them again after that response and chided myself for trying to communicate with any of them again. It was a total waste of time, but an eye opener at the same moment, if that makes sense to you? Faune.... here's the problem as I see it: The elder and his wife probably show up to all the meetings, stand around the piano singing hymns with the workers, discuss the affairs of "the kingdom" with them, perhaps even provide them with a car. That will qualify them to be elders, but it doesn't mean they'll have the kind of caring heart we read about in Luke 15. Ross ~ I was an Outsider who professed around 15 years old and not B&R. However, after spending 30 years within the group, it becomes like a way of life to you and leaving and facing the unknown isn't the easiest experience either. I eventually found Christian counseling helped me to piece things together better later on and to let go of the past and its weights upon my soul. Perhaps that was when I first began to experience that "freedom in Christ" as a result of God's grace becoming a reality for me, too? Also, that's another reason why I view the 2x2's as manifesting cultish behaviors by the way they treat others who are different from them in their "Us vs. Them" mentality. That was another thing I felt thankful to leave behind me in my spiritual journey, too.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 19, 2015 11:10:55 GMT -5
I probably spoke to soon in saying exiting was a non-event, but what I really meant is not seeing anything particularly cultish about leaving for most people exiting. For example, Dennis Jacobsen experienced workers telling his wife that he, Dennis, was "wicked". That's quite strange, and one could say, high controlling and judgemental behaviour. But from my experience and perspective, atypical. I believe you, Dennis, and perhaps the workers once did things like that, and perhaps somewhere they still do things like that, but I've not heard or seen the like in any exits that I'm familiar with. If I had I would revise my opinions in general. Mind you, I've never known a friend or ex-friend of our acquaintance to inhabit these boards, to write an exit letter or an exit narrative, so perhaps things are different here. Now people did say some odd things when we left. The main over-riding impression is that the workers never do or did anything wrong, and any exit conversations, of which we had quite a few, always turned to an analysis of what *we* might have done wrong. That's understandable though; it's a defence mechanism kicking in. Here I'm not talking about doctrine, but just general ineptness in how some things were handled. For example, a worker telling me furtively in the driveway just as I was about to leave after Sunday meeting that we wouldn't have* Bible study any longer. "Oh by the way just before you pull out, we've decided that you shouldn't have Wednesday Bible study any more". And prior to that, we were dropped from the Union Sunday list without any special notice. If you mention incidents like this to the friends, you'll encounter excuse-making and tripping over themselves because rule 1 is that the workers never do anything wrong. And rule 2 is that when the workers do something wrong, you should refer back to rule number 1. But those items were just a ripple in the firmament, again, not to compare with other recent life experiences. We have maintained relationships with 4 or 5 couples that were very good friends while we were in the fellowship, and remain friends now. The rest we have little to do with, although if we bump into someone they're friendly enough. That's about what you'd expect leaving any social group though. Today I had a coffee with a dozen or so men from the f&w group as I do every month or two. As we caught up on recent events, joked and talked about this and that, I thought to myself, "some folks think these guys are in a cult". What church are they talking about, because it's not the church that I know. What Hat ~ It sounds like you came from an area where the friends were more cordial and accepting of you and not so exclusive as to write you off after leaving the group? However, when I finally left the meetings after 14 years down South, nobody ever contacted me afterwards among the F&W's. I was the first one to reach out over two years later through my Exit Letter, which never received a response from any of the folks I mailed it to in our meeting area, except for the "Refused, Return to Sender" response from the elder's wife. Obviously, they didn't care enough to even read the letter before returning it to me? So, try to explain it as you may, I took it as an indicator that I wasted my time even trying to continue on in meetings after my husband left and should have joined him back in time? I had hoped things would change over time, but was sadly mistaken. Perhaps now you understand my reference to Pharisees within my Exit Letter, since the way we were treated surely reminded me of such behavior? My feeling in general is that if an area is a touchy one for a person, on anything from religion to politics, then consider the down side versus the advantage before putting your views out there. This is why I don't think 'exit letters' are a good thing. An 'exit letter' that preaches at the friends in a critical way is a bridge burner. Here's why. You've already decided you are no longer on the team. Now you come back and tell the team everything that is wrong with them, generally things that you never mentioned before. You might see it and fully intend it as just being helpful because a new door has been opened to you, but it's going to be read as betrayal by some people. That's just natural, and has nothing to do with Pharisees and being a cult.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 19, 2015 11:31:19 GMT -5
Faune.... here's the problem as I see it: The elder and his wife probably show up to all the meetings, stand around the piano singing hymns with the workers, discuss the affairs of "the kingdom" with them, perhaps even provide them with a car. That will qualify them to be elders, but it doesn't mean they'll have the kind of caring heart we read about in Luke 15. Ross ~ I was an Outsider who professed around 15 years old and not B&R. However, after spending 30 years within the group, it becomes like a way of life to you and leaving and facing the unknown isn't the easiest experience either. I eventually found Christian counseling helped me to piece things together better later on and to let go of the past and its weights upon my soul. Perhaps that was when I first began to experience that "freedom in Christ" as a result of God's grace becoming a reality for me, too? Also, that's another reason why I view the 2x2's as manifesting cultish behaviors by the way they treat others who are different from them in their "Us vs. Them" mentality. That was another thing I felt thankful to leave behind me in my spiritual journey, too. I can empathise completely with your point of view and situation, until you say "that's another reason why I view the 2x2's as manifesting cultish behaviors by the way they treat others who are different from them in their 'Us vs. Them' mentality." That's where I come to a screeching halt. First of all, they are somewhat isolationist from general society, but not hugely, what they refer to as 'the world'. Well, 'the world' doesn't need the love of the friends, and they're not missing it, or knowing what they're missing, that I can see. The people who complain about treatment are their own, or were their own. What do you do when you're in a church, and you dislike or don't gel with someone? What if no one likes a particular person because they have issues or are tiring or wearing to deal with? That presents a problem for the people in a church who often have less ability to form free social ties than people in open society do. However, it can also be a strength for a church in that everyone can feel they belong, and the church also cares and provides for its members in time of need. That's called 'community'. I'm sorry, but generally, the friends do 'community' really well. I see nothing cult-ish or manipulative about their behaviour in a general sense. There is certainly pressure to conform, but the group identity is what it is. It's not easy to preserve group identity and deal with non-conformity. Don't expect that those situations will be handled perfectly or even well. I think the group has learned better how to deal with non-conforming members over the decades, and from what I see, its members will try to learn, at least some of them.
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Post by fixit on Jun 19, 2015 16:53:28 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but generally, the friends do 'community' really well. I see nothing cult-ish or manipulative about their behaviour in a general sense. There is certainly pressure to conform, but the group identity is what it is. It's not easy to preserve group identity and deal with non-conformity. Don't expect that those situations will be handled perfectly or even well. I think the group has learned better how to deal with non-conforming members over the decades, and from what I see, its members will try to learn, at least some of them. It's not easy to preserve group identity and deal with non-conformity.That is very true WH. I would nominate that for "sentence of the week" if there was such a thing.
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Post by emy on Jun 19, 2015 21:46:57 GMT -5
Ross ~ I was an Outsider who professed around 15 years old and not B&R. However, after spending 30 years within the group, it becomes like a way of life to you and leaving and facing the unknown isn't the easiest experience either. I eventually found Christian counseling helped me to piece things together better later on and to let go of the past and its weights upon my soul. Perhaps that was when I first began to experience that "freedom in Christ" as a result of God's grace becoming a reality for me, too? Also, that's another reason why I view the 2x2's as manifesting cultish behaviors by the way they treat others who are different from them in their "Us vs. Them" mentality. That was another thing I felt thankful to leave behind me in my spiritual journey, too. I can empathise completely with your point of view and situation, until you say "that's another reason why I view the 2x2's as manifesting cultish behaviors by the way they treat others who are different from them in their 'Us vs. Them' mentality." That's where I come to a screeching halt. First of all, they are somewhat isolationist from general society, but not hugely, what they refer to as 'the world'. Well, 'the world' doesn't need the love of the friends, and they're not missing it, or knowing what they're missing, that I can see. The people who complain about treatment are their own, or were their own. What do you do when you're in a church, and you dislike or don't gel with someone? What if no one likes a particular person because they have issues or are tiring or wearing to deal with? That presents a problem for the people in a church who often have less ability to form free social ties than people in open society do. However, it can also be a strength for a church in that everyone can feel they belong, and the church also cares and provides for its members in time of need. That's called 'community'. I'm sorry, but generally, the friends do 'community' really well. I see nothing cult-ish or manipulative about their behaviour in a general sense. There is certainly pressure to conform, but the group identity is what it is. It's not easy to preserve group identity and deal with non-conformity. Don't expect that those situations will be handled perfectly or even well. I think the group has learned better how to deal with non-conforming members over the decades, and from what I see, its members will try to learn, at least some of them. I'm glad Faune had a somewhat positive experience with the fellowship in New England. It should help mellow her negative experience in her present location. I would tend to think, rather than any flaw in the fellowship IN GENERAL, she experienced a flaw in some personalities, who apparently were looked to as leaders. That's unfortunate, and I'm sorry she had to go through that.
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Post by faune on Jun 19, 2015 22:51:50 GMT -5
I can empathise completely with your point of view and situation, until you say "that's another reason why I view the 2x2's as manifesting cultish behaviors by the way they treat others who are different from them in their 'Us vs. Them' mentality." That's where I come to a screeching halt. First of all, they are somewhat isolationist from general society, but not hugely, what they refer to as 'the world'. Well, 'the world' doesn't need the love of the friends, and they're not missing it, or knowing what they're missing, that I can see. The people who complain about treatment are their own, or were their own. What do you do when you're in a church, and you dislike or don't gel with someone? What if no one likes a particular person because they have issues or are tiring or wearing to deal with? That presents a problem for the people in a church who often have less ability to form free social ties than people in open society do. However, it can also be a strength for a church in that everyone can feel they belong, and the church also cares and provides for its members in time of need. That's called 'community'. I'm sorry, but generally, the friends do 'community' really well. I see nothing cult-ish or manipulative about their behaviour in a general sense. There is certainly pressure to conform, but the group identity is what it is. It's not easy to preserve group identity and deal with non-conformity. Don't expect that those situations will be handled perfectly or even well. I think the group has learned better how to deal with non-conforming members over the decades, and from what I see, its members will try to learn, at least some of them. I'm glad Faune had a somewhat positive experience with the fellowship in New England. It should help mellow her negative experience in her present location. I would tend to think, rather than any flaw in the fellowship IN GENERAL, she experienced a flaw in some personalities, who apparently were looked to as leaders. That's unfortunate, and I'm sorry she had to go through that. Emy ~ Thank you for summing up my past situation in a nutshell. I hold no hard feelings towards any of the friends today. it was just certain personalities regarded as leaders within our assigned meeting area that made us feel unwanted. I trust folks realize that not all meetings experiences are the same? Some are more pleasant and others can be just tolerable. However, I never really enjoyed any "sense of community" within my last assigned meeting, but did enjoy the company and fellowship of the friends back home in the Northeast, who treated us far better and were more accepting. There were also some folks we encountered in our new meeting area who were also pleasant and caring and were friendly in the beginning. Personally, I feel it's all just a matter of personal likes and dislikes among some meeting folks that can make or break you in a new area. We behaved no differently than we did back home and tried to make new friends, but the feeling wasn't mutual. What more can say?
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Post by What Hat on Jun 19, 2015 23:17:19 GMT -5
I'm glad Faune had a somewhat positive experience with the fellowship in New England. It should help mellow her negative experience in her present location. I would tend to think, rather than any flaw in the fellowship IN GENERAL, she experienced a flaw in some personalities, who apparently were looked to as leaders. That's unfortunate, and I'm sorry she had to go through that. Emy ~ Thank you for summing up my past situation in a nutshell. I hold no hard feelings towards any of the friends today. it was just certain personalities regarded as leaders within our assigned meeting area that made us feel unwanted. I trust folks realize that not all meetings experiences are the same? Some are more pleasant and others can be just tolerable. However, I never really enjoyed any "sense of community" within my last assigned meeting, but did enjoy the company and fellowship of the friends back home in the Northeast, who treated us far better and were more accepting. There were also some folks we encountered in our new meeting area who were also pleasant and caring and were friendly in the beginning. Personally, I feel it's all just a matter of personal likes and dislikes among some meeting folks that can make or break you in a new area. We behaved no differently than we did back home and tried to make new friends, but the feeling wasn't mutual. What more can say? I don't dispute any of the facts of your experience, as you put them across. You're a good hearted person, and I'm glad things have worked out better for you elsewhere. The boundaries of God's kingdom straddle man made impediments and obstacles I feel and if one door closes, God always opens another.
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Post by jomarch on Jun 20, 2015 11:07:30 GMT -5
What Hat ~ Here's what I posted earlier regarding the four different methods of control used by groups with cultish characteristics of "persuasive coercion." The breakdown below relates to the Jehovah Witnesses and their Watchtower Society as well as other groups with similar characteristics of control over their members. I might add that "thought control" is just another name for "mind control" here. Being completely honest with yourself, don't you see a few areas below that also reminds you of the 2x2's in their leadership structure and behaviors?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 13:57:47 GMT -5
In my opinion, you are absolutely correct, jomarch, though I completely believe it was even worse for girl children, as bad as it was for a boy. Could argue about that though, I suppose.
It was finally about your age that I found myself believing so differently about my God, and then finding myself free from that indoctrination, except for memories which shall always plague me, I suspect.
However, now I know my God as "Abba Father," (like a dear daddy) for which I am extremely thankful. Smile, and now some accuse me of being hard hearted. Thankful my "dear Daddy" sees me as I am through the blood of Yahu'shuah.
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2015 16:39:25 GMT -5
Welcome Jomarch. It's been a journey for many of us that have left. It seems to be a journey for some still professing too. Some are perfectly content. It works for some and not for others.
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Post by faune on Jun 22, 2015 20:41:07 GMT -5
Welcome Jomarch. It's been a journey for many of us that have left. It seems to be a journey for some still professing too. Some are perfectly content. It works for some and not for others. I wish also to welcome Jomarch and to thank him for his honest reply to the list I posted earlier which is shown below. The emotional control that the 2x2's had over young folks seemed to hang around a long time even after leaving the 2x2's, which I found unnerving and also affected my feelings regarding God as a loving Father for some time afterwards as well.
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