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Post by fixit on May 20, 2015 5:23:21 GMT -5
I hear what Matt10 and others are saying (I think). Religious dissention and biblical literalism tends to bring out the "acts of the flesh", so does that mean the leading of the Spirit is not about those things? If love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are expressed in someone's life....does that mean they are led by the Spirit whether they believe or not? What version are you quoting from fixit? The KJV says "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance". There's quite a difference between "faith" and "faithfulness" and between "meekness" and "gentleness". If a person doesn't believe in God, obviously they won't have the fruit of faith. For faith, the original Greek was pistis: faith, faithfulness, steadfastness. For meekness, the original Greek was praotes: meekness, mildness I quoted NIV.
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Post by matisse on May 20, 2015 9:31:59 GMT -5
I hear what Matt10 and others are saying (I think). Religious dissention and biblical literalism tends to bring out the "acts of the flesh", so does that mean the leading of the Spirit is not about those things? If love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are expressed in someone's life....does that mean they are led by the Spirit whether they believe or not? What version are you quoting from fixit? The KJV says "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance". There's quite a difference between "faith" and "faithfulness" and between "meekness" and "gentleness". If a person doesn't believe in God, obviously they won't have the fruit of faith. The so-called "Fruit of the Spirit" are human qualities. Christians do NOT have exclusive access...or as far as I have seen, even preferential access to them.
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Post by withlove on May 21, 2015 15:51:59 GMT -5
Not sure what Lee meant, but you reminded me of workers preaching that we should pray for our unprofessing loved ones to have hard experiences which would drive them to God. And I heard prayers like that. It was hard for me...I would just pray that God do whatever it would take. I don't think God is limited to upsetting people. Maybe a more appropriate prayer is that God would show his love and wonder through good things... I guess some believe that anything goes if it justifies the end results of finding God or the right religion/God etc.? Hope none of the f&w think anything goes to "save someone," even though there are groups like that. Some come closer to thinking anything goes when it comes to protecting the image of the workers though. Do you remember when you were little that people were praying for hard experiences? I suppose there must be bible verses about it...maybe someone can remind me. It still happens. Prayers for others to be driven to their knees by hardship and also prayers for someone's own self to have hard experiences to be closer to God. Posting here is like a therapy session. It's like scales fall off my eyes as I type. Those prayers seem like a shade of self-flaggelation. Asking God to hurt us and hurt others. That's dark.
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Post by snow on May 21, 2015 17:28:57 GMT -5
I guess some believe that anything goes if it justifies the end results of finding God or the right religion/God etc.? Hope none of the f&w think anything goes to "save someone," even though there are groups like that. Some come closer to thinking anything goes when it comes to protecting the image of the workers though. Do you remember when you were little that people were praying for hard experiences? I suppose there must be bible verses about it...maybe someone can remind me. It still happens. Prayers for others to be driven to their knees by hardship and also prayers for someone's own self to have hard experiences to be closer to God. Posting here is like a therapy session. It's like scales fall off my eyes as I type. Those prayers seem like a shade of self-flaggelation. Asking God to hurt us and hurt others. That's dark. I do remember that withlove. Never understood why people would pray for others to have hard times. My parents and one aunt, maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather were the only ones in my family that professed. So we had lots of relatives, aunts, uncles, maternal grandfather that did not profess. So I heard it often in regards to their family that was not professing and it was this lost out family, who I loved, that finally made me question why loving good people went to hell just because they didn't profess. The workers confirmed it and when I questioned it, it made them angry because I could be pretty persistent even at the age of 12. It was something I couldn't justify and so I quit professing and not long after that quit believing in the Christian God. Figured if he was that picky he wasn't the nicest guy around and I wanted nothing to do with him. For a few years I figured I'd be going to hell for that decision, but I felt it couldn't be helped. Thankfully as I matured I realized there was no heaven or hell and that was no longer a fear I had. But for quite a while after I quit professing I was convinced that move meant I was doomed. I was pretty well indoctrinated and a serious kid that professed when I was 8. So I had professed for 4 years before I quit.
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Post by withlove on May 21, 2015 22:21:02 GMT -5
Hope none of the f&w think anything goes to "save someone," even though there are groups like that. Some come closer to thinking anything goes when it comes to protecting the image of the workers though. Do you remember when you were little that people were praying for hard experiences? I suppose there must be bible verses about it...maybe someone can remind me. It still happens. Prayers for others to be driven to their knees by hardship and also prayers for someone's own self to have hard experiences to be closer to God. Posting here is like a therapy session. It's like scales fall off my eyes as I type. Those prayers seem like a shade of self-flaggelation. Asking God to hurt us and hurt others. That's dark. I do remember that withlove. Never understood why people would pray for others to have hard times. My parents and one aunt, maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather were the only ones in my family that professed. So we had lots of relatives, aunts, uncles, maternal grandfather that did not profess. So I heard it often in regards to their family that was not professing and it was this lost out family, who I loved, that finally made me question why loving good people went to hell just because they didn't profess. The workers confirmed it and when I questioned it, it made them angry because I could be pretty persistent even at the age of 12. It was something I couldn't justify and so I quit professing and not long after that quit believing in the Christian God. Figured if he was that picky he wasn't the nicest guy around and I wanted nothing to do with him. For a few years I figured I'd be going to hell for that decision, but I felt it couldn't be helped. Thankfully as I matured I realized there was no heaven or hell and that was no longer a fear I had. But for quite a while after I quit professing I was convinced that move meant I was doomed. I was pretty well indoctrinated and a serious kid that professed when I was 8. So I had professed for 4 years before I quit. Maybe we serious types are more likely to leave because we can't live with ourselves if we stay? For me, it's not just about judging outside of myself, but coming to grips with am I sinning in continuing with my head down. Some are able to separate it all and keep the good and not feel tainted by the rest and maybe that is okay for people who do believe in most of the theology. I'm not that laid-back and I can't/don't want to change that about myself. Idealism is tough to live with! Editing to add thanks for sharing your story! The mind-warp exes (even ones who remain Christains) have to work through for years after is awful. Hearing stories may help reduce the time for me and others I hope!
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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 11:00:58 GMT -5
I do remember that withlove. Never understood why people would pray for others to have hard times. My parents and one aunt, maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather were the only ones in my family that professed. So we had lots of relatives, aunts, uncles, maternal grandfather that did not profess. So I heard it often in regards to their family that was not professing and it was this lost out family, who I loved, that finally made me question why loving good people went to hell just because they didn't profess. The workers confirmed it and when I questioned it, it made them angry because I could be pretty persistent even at the age of 12. It was something I couldn't justify and so I quit professing and not long after that quit believing in the Christian God. Figured if he was that picky he wasn't the nicest guy around and I wanted nothing to do with him. For a few years I figured I'd be going to hell for that decision, but I felt it couldn't be helped. Thankfully as I matured I realized there was no heaven or hell and that was no longer a fear I had. But for quite a while after I quit professing I was convinced that move meant I was doomed. I was pretty well indoctrinated and a serious kid that professed when I was 8. So I had professed for 4 years before I quit. Maybe we serious types are more likely to leave because we can't live with ourselves if we stay? For me, it's not just about judging outside of myself, but coming to grips with am I sinning in continuing with my head down. Some are able to separate it all and keep the good and not feel tainted by the rest and maybe that is okay for people who do believe in most of the theology. I'm not that laid-back and I can't/don't want to change that about myself. Idealism is tough to live with! Editing to add thanks for sharing your story! The mind-warp exes (even ones who remain Christains) have to work through for years after is awful. Hearing stories may help reduce the time for me and others I hope! I felt it was necessary when I left to just let it go! I was a minor that still lived at home and was subject to my parents request that I continue to go to meetings whether I wanted to or not. I left home the night I wrote my final exam in grade 12. From that time forward I never gave it much thought until I came here and found TMB. Now I find I am dealing with some issues I never gave much thought to. Not sure if it more helpful to know what other exes went through and I can relate or not... lol
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