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Post by whyisitso on May 8, 2015 22:29:27 GMT -5
Why is it so, What basis do you have to consider his writing factual? Were you there? What about the false/incorrect statements he made about me. Would you have also considered them factual? I personally do not place a lot on 20 year old anecdotes from one person with the other party having no input. But please I have no problem with you considering his writings as factual. ps even from the little he gives of what Allan said I can see how easily what Allan mentioned has very likely been mischievously misconstrued. Hi Review, I'm glad you asked. Yes I was there. I lived in Sydney for 6 years over that time although I think I've only met Ross personally once it seems we might have sat in on several of the same sermons. Also heard some other pearlers I could share too if you like. I took notes, as most do, and I still have a lot of them in a box somewhere (we were going to move house last year and de cluttered to put our house on the market but I still haven't got to unpacking those boxes again!) One in particular was we were told that women weren't allowed to give thanks for the bread or wine. Clyde told us that. I don't think I took notes on it but I clearly remember it because it was directed at our Sunday morning meeting in particular.
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Post by mdm on May 8, 2015 22:31:11 GMT -5
My post was entirely too cryptic and I think you've taken it more personally than what I intended and that's my fault and I apologise. I retain the opinion that more openness would be beneficial and would help to reduce speculation. I don't know what on earth you were going on about! I appreciate apologies from others and I also seek to make them this way myself where there is no second line to follow on. I find a second line really takes away from any meaning of the first line. I like to just say "I was wrong, I'm sorry, I apologise." Review, I think that Fixit is saying that without secrecy there would be no need for people to look for information about their church on the Internet or to rely on the grapevine, and there would be no need to speculate on what is happening and why. If there was no secrecy, it would also show that the workers hold themselves accountable to the church, and are not trying to cover up a problem without actually resolving it.
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Post by whyisitso on May 8, 2015 22:46:06 GMT -5
whyisitso, That is fine, you continue your strenuous defence of Ross posts. I'll continue to post my comments and perspective of them! It's ok, I didn't find it strenuous, I was just saying what I'd heard was the same
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aus1
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Post by aus1 on May 9, 2015 1:29:50 GMT -5
The change is fairly unremarkable and I would say expected. Clyde is getting old and it has been clear for the last year that a change was imminent and necessary. Allan Kitto was second in charge in NSW under Clyde and was originally reluctant to go to South Australia. He went there to take over from Stan Cornthwaite after a number of meeting elders effectively blocked Ian Taylor (also from NSW) becoming the South Australian Head Worker. This has been previously written about on TMB. It is quite natural for Allan Kitto to come back to NSW to take over from Clyde - Allan was born and bred in NSW. Clyde is in his 80's - Allan would be in his 70's. While it has no effect on those who have left, I know a number of professing folks who would be disappointed by the change - they had been hoping for a younger person to take over. When many folk left in Sydney around 15 years ago Allan was the senior worker who spoke at special meetings saying that the folk who had left had lost their faith. He went on to address a key question that those leaving had "how do the workers believe a person is saved?" In his view at the time it was 100% up to the individual - salvation was not a "gift" from God. Two other workers tried hard to address the issue during the day with Ian Taylor publicly stating that salvation was a gift of grace from God. During that year at a NSW convention we were told that Ephesians 2: 8-9 were the favourite verses of Satan. It was a difficult day and a day that I made the decision to leave the fellowship because of errant teaching that did not line up with the Bible. Many others also made that decision subsequently and are still making it. I don't know what Allan preaches today. Ross, It seems strange to bring Allan (in his 70s) back when Clyde has David S or Robert D to takeover the responsibility.
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Post by kittens on May 9, 2015 1:44:29 GMT -5
The change is fairly unremarkable and I would say expected. Clyde is getting old and it has been clear for the last year that a change was imminent and necessary. Allan Kitto was second in charge in NSW under Clyde and was originally reluctant to go to South Australia. He went there to take over from Stan Cornthwaite after a number of meeting elders effectively blocked Ian Taylor (also from NSW) becoming the South Australian Head Worker. This has been previously written about on TMB. It is quite natural for Allan Kitto to come back to NSW to take over from Clyde - Allan was born and bred in NSW. Clyde is in his 80's - Allan would be in his 70's. While it has no effect on those who have left, I know a number of professing folks who would be disappointed by the change - they had been hoping for a younger person to take over. When many folk left in Sydney around 15 years ago Allan was the senior worker who spoke at special meetings saying that the folk who had left had lost their faith. He went on to address a key question that those leaving had "how do the workers believe a person is saved?" In his view at the time it was 100% up to the individual - salvation was not a "gift" from God. Two other workers tried hard to address the issue during the day with Ian Taylor publicly stating that salvation was a gift of grace from God. During that year at a NSW convention we were told that Ephesians 2: 8-9 were the favourite verses of Satan. It was a difficult day and a day that I made the decision to leave the fellowship because of errant teaching that did not line up with the Bible. Many others also made that decision subsequently and are still making it. I don't know what Allan preaches today. Ross, It seems strange to bring Allan (in his 70s) back when Clyde has David S or Robert D to takeover the responsibility. 1
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 1:48:34 GMT -5
It's all well to quote save by grace verses, but 50% (that's FIFTY PERCENT!) of the New Testament writing involves REQUIREMENTS for Salvation. That figure, BTW, also holds for Jesus. That's a lot of text to gloss over as we search for the next lonely "saved by grace" verse.
And it's also showing that you don't really love the things asked of you. How therefor could you be happy in God's righteousness?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 9:18:53 GMT -5
I don't know about what went on or goes on in Australia, but reading through some of these postings causes me to reflect on what is written in 1 Timothy 5:13. Strange when people have Abandoned ship but still wants to know everything that goes on on board ship.
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Post by Mary on May 9, 2015 11:46:56 GMT -5
The same as saying those who have left should not be concerned about abuse that happens in the group. It's not their business what happens in the fellowship.
Interesting that a lot of people are interested in things, people and places that they have never had any contact with even. Do you care about what happens in other places or do you only read what happens in your own town. Do you read and discuss the news elsewhere, partaker. Do you speak out against things or have opinions about in what's happening in other places.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 14:41:26 GMT -5
Mary, I will let this one pass; anyone reading my postings over the years will have homed in on my position relating to abuse in the fellowship, so your first paragraph is a mis interpretation /misrepresentation of my over-all position. Anyway as far as I can see, this particular thread is not a discussion on abuse; or am I missing something? It looks like people are discussing who is fit or capable of holding positions of authority in the fellowship etc. The reality of the situation is that they are in no position to influence these appointments, as they have already abandoned ship. That is the point I was making. Do you have a problem with that?
ps. Internal changes and adjustments are usually put into place by internal processes, sometimes by taking external pressure/ influences into consideration in very extraordinary circumstances.
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Post by snow on May 9, 2015 15:03:08 GMT -5
I don't know about what went on or goes on in Australia, but reading through some of these postings causes me to reflect on what is written in 1 Timothy 5:13. Strange when people have Abandoned ship but still wants to know everything that goes on on board ship. Why is it deemed to be abandonment in the first place. When people move to a new place do they automatically forget all their old friends and family that might have lived in the old place? Wouldn't they want to keep up with the lives of those they no longer get to see as often. Most have professing families so it makes sense that they try to keep up and are interested.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 15:26:08 GMT -5
I don't know about what went on or goes on in Australia, but reading through some of these postings causes me to reflect on what is written in 1 Timothy 5:13. Strange when people have Abandoned ship but still wants to know everything that goes on on board ship. Why is it deemed to be abandonment in the first place. When people move to a new place do they automatically forget all their old friends and family that might have lived in the old place? Wouldn't they want to keep up with the lives of those they no longer get to see as often. Most have professing families so it makes sense that they try to keep up and are interested. Abandoned ship was used as a figure of expression as I have heard it used many time in the UK. and elsewhere. When I changed Jobs, colleagues would playfully accuse me of abandoning ship, but that did not imply that I would abandoned them; gosh! people are so sensitive on this forum! I think it is the last straw for me, time to go. Adios hasta la vista, everyone.
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Post by Mary on May 9, 2015 15:41:27 GMT -5
If a new boss is appointed in a company where I used to work I would still be interested especially if I knew the people they were talking about. Out of sight does not mean out of mind.
I sense your frustration with us mortals. Yes there are some sensitive people on here and that includes you. Not a bad trait or do they create uncomfortable feelings in us?
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Post by snow on May 9, 2015 15:57:41 GMT -5
Why is it deemed to be abandonment in the first place. When people move to a new place do they automatically forget all their old friends and family that might have lived in the old place? Wouldn't they want to keep up with the lives of those they no longer get to see as often. Most have professing families so it makes sense that they try to keep up and are interested. Abandoned ship was used as a figure of expression as I have heard it used many time in the UK. and elsewhere. When I changed Jobs, colleagues would playfully accuse me of abandoning ship, but that did not imply that I would abandoned them; gosh! people are so sensitive on this forum! I think it is the last straw for me, time to go. Adios hasta la vista, everyone. Now whose being sensitive, not that that's a bad thing. Simply pointing out that just because people leave doesn't mean they don't want to keep in touch and know what's going on. I am still friends with people I no longer work with, I am still friends with some of the friends, it's a good thing I would think to maintain relationships.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 9, 2015 16:12:55 GMT -5
To continue the nautical theme, going to the meetings or being part of the truth is like being a crewman on a pirate ship. Some of the crew want to give up their wicked ways and so abandon ship. Back in the merchant navy plying an honest trade from port to port they see the old pirate ship sail by from time to time and wonder about their old crewmates and life on board.
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Post by withlove on May 10, 2015 1:32:23 GMT -5
I don't know about what went on or goes on in Australia, but reading through some of these postings causes me to reflect on what is written in 1 Timothy 5:13. Strange when people have Abandoned ship but still wants to know everything that goes on on board ship. It seems like the posters who are asking specific questions about the topic have a personal history with the people and/or place. Otherwise the posters are more concerned with transparency in general, or are reacting to each other's perspectives. Please don't leave, partaker. I appreciate your critical thinking and how you don't buy into one camp or the other but make independent observations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 4:06:40 GMT -5
Why is it deemed to be abandonment in the first place. When people move to a new place do they automatically forget all their old friends and family that might have lived in the old place? Wouldn't they want to keep up with the lives of those they no longer get to see as often. Most have professing families so it makes sense that they try to keep up and are interested. Abandoned ship was used as a figure of expression as I have heard it used many time in the UK. and elsewhere. When I changed Jobs, colleagues would playfully accuse me of abandoning ship, but that did not imply that I would abandoned them; gosh! people are so sensitive on this forum! I think it is the last straw for me, time to go. Adios hasta la vista, everyone. aww buddy please don't go wisdom is needed here
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 10, 2015 4:20:35 GMT -5
Abandoned ship was used as a figure of expression as I have heard it used many time in the UK. and elsewhere. When I changed Jobs, colleagues would playfully accuse me of abandoning ship, but that did not imply that I would abandoned them; gosh! people are so sensitive on this forum! I think it is the last straw for me, time to go. Adios hasta la vista, everyone. aww buddy please don't go wisdom is needed here Why?
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Post by kittens on May 10, 2015 17:23:47 GMT -5
A professing person mentioned to me that Graeme Dalton is moving to South Australia from New South Wales which some who know Graeme might be interested in. 1
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2015 0:59:22 GMT -5
aww buddy please don't go wisdom is needed here Why? because your's is lacking
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 11:28:07 GMT -5
Guess my perception of, "who are you calling stupid, stupid?" is not so far off base. Some claiming "professing" and "worker" status in this forum simply prove what others of us have perceived through the years: hypocrisy abounds.
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tom
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Post by tom on May 13, 2015 14:52:40 GMT -5
Guess my perception of, "who are you calling stupid, stupid?" is not so far off base. Some claiming "professing" and "worker" status in this forum simply prove what others of us have perceived through the years: hypocrisy abounds. Wow, what a reaction! And -if someone dared to say bitterness abounds on this forum they'd be shot down in flames. Come on Dennis -lighten up. I just took that as a little bit of sarcastic humour.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 14, 2015 2:24:14 GMT -5
When I was "professing" going to meetings or whatever you like to call it, I often was the recipient of comments such as Virgo made to me, comments made by both workers and saints. I took them in silence. There was physical abuse too, from workers, also taken in silence. Now I don't have to take it any more. I can give it back. And guess what? they don't like it up em. They say I am mean nasty and all sorts of other things. Well tough. Bullies have never liked there own medicine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 3:26:27 GMT -5
When I was "professing" going to meetings or whatever you like to call it, I often was the recipient of comments such as Virgo made to me, comments made by both workers and saints. I took them in silence. There was physical abuse too, from workers, also taken in silence. Now I don't have to take it any more. I can give it back. And guess what? they don't like it up em. They say I am mean nasty and all sorts of other things. Well tough. Bullies have never liked there own medicine. where is your wink and smilie face or are you serious like Dennis
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 14, 2015 3:37:04 GMT -5
Bullying, even if it be the type of smartarse comments the like of you made to me when I was professing is never a wink and smilie face matter.
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Post by withlove on May 14, 2015 22:57:09 GMT -5
I assumed Virgo was referring to the lack of wisdom on the board in general rather than any lack in curlywurly specifically...maybe I'm wrong?
Either way, the wink doesn't help.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 23:50:59 GMT -5
Bullying, even if it be the type of smartarse comments the like of you made to me when I was professing is never a wink and smilie face matter. it's about time you got a life misery guts
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Post by fixit on May 15, 2015 0:40:51 GMT -5
Bullying, even if it be the type of smartarse comments the like of you made to me when I was professing is never a wink and smilie face matter. it's about time you got a life misery guts How about expressing the love of Jesus in your writing Virgo?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 0:43:25 GMT -5
it's about time you got a life misery guts How about expressing the love of Jesus in your writing Virgo? how about you minding your own business
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