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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 17:08:11 GMT -5
It amazes me how many post here as if God was moving people to use The English language when the Bible was compiled. And indeed, once as a youngin' that is more or less what I once thought.
Then I began to study languages, which ones use definite and indefinite articles, how prepositions are used, especially in Koine Greek. Yeah I even know teachers who do not believe such things are important for students to learn. So, why should linguistically illiterate people care? Simple, if everyone is using only one language, such things are simply learned by rote. Those who apply themselves to other languages soon find out many difficulties occur.
Positioning of specific words with relation to a verb, or noun, for instance. The need for linguistic cases is another. Now this is expressing as best I can using only the English language. German has more cases than English, Finish has many more cases. How many does Koine Greek have? For that matter, what does Koine Greek encompass? Some of you reveal tremendous ignorance of these simple and basic linguistic topics, and focus on scripture as if it were originally composed in your native language, when it simply was not.
There are some languages where no distinction can be made on which some of you place your entire belief structure. That's fine for you. Place all your trust in that. There is much more to this topic for me, however. No it doesn't matter to me who thinks what is right or wrong, what does matter is how dogmatic one gets about it. Repeatedly, I have sought to hold my peace about this, and witness many growing more and more dogmatic.
For me, worship in spirit and in truth has different meaning than for some posting here. My Lord IS truth to me, Grace along with all of its fruits make up the Spirit I wish to emulate.
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Post by withlove on Apr 29, 2015 19:09:00 GMT -5
Dennis, you are really wise to learn how meanings can be different in other languages. I wish I knew more than English! Please step in whenever you think we are misinterpreting things...would be so helpful. But it's understandable that you would get burned out with that.
Some people go so far as to think the "thee, ye" language is the respectful way to speak in prayer. We all are limited to our education.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 29, 2015 20:38:14 GMT -5
Though until this point I have only "considered" studying Greek and/or Hebrew, I am conversant in a Pacific Island language - Marshallese - and even earn my livelihood through translating documents from English into Marshallese. Though my familiarity with Marshallese tells me absolutely nothing about the languages in which the scriptures were penned, it does illustrate well to me the utter impossibility of basing a doctrine on a specific meaning of a translated term.
When reading the earlier thread on "scriptural terms," I wondered how we can insist on using the exact scriptural terms without using Hebrew and Greek. Every translation is an approximation at best. I am grateful for the translations available, and I am also appreciative of those who have invested the time to "get at" the original intent of the writers, and to share that knowledge with us, through whatever medium.
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Post by rational on Apr 29, 2015 20:45:00 GMT -5
How many does Koine Greek have? Are you going to fill us in? More than Hungarian? More or less than the 5 cases old english supported?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 20:49:51 GMT -5
I guess it comes down to a matter of trust dennis you can find people in every country who will disagree on how their language is used...I trust king james and his scholars translated the greek and Hebrew correctly and have had one person who knew Hebrew tell me that it was the closest translation out there. I have another person who knew Hebrew say that there are a few errors but mostly correct.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 29, 2015 21:29:35 GMT -5
I guess it comes down to a matter of trust dennis you can find people in every country who will disagree on how their language is used...I trust king james and his scholars translated the greek and Hebrew correctly and have had one person who knew Hebrew tell me that it was the closest translation out there. I have another person who knew Hebrew say that there are a few errors but mostly correct. But not exactly translated from the Greek and Hebrew -- more like from Greek and Hebrew through ... through Spanish and then into King James version.
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Post by withlove on Apr 30, 2015 8:22:02 GMT -5
Though until this point I have only "considered" studying Greek and/or Hebrew, I am conversant in a Pacific Island language - Marshallese - and even earn my livelihood through translating documents from English into Marshallese. Though my familiarity with Marshallese tells me absolutely nothing about the languages in which the scriptures were penned, it does illustrate well to me the utter impossibility of basing a doctrine on a specific meaning of a translated term. When reading the earlier thread on "scriptural terms," I wondered how we can insist on using the exact scriptural terms without using Hebrew and Greek. Every translation is an approximation at best. I am grateful for the translations available, and I am also appreciative of those who have invested the time to "get at" the original intent of the writers, and to share that knowledge with us, through whatever medium. Yes, same gratitude here for the attempts at getting at the most accurate translation. I'd love to know Greek and Hebrew. It would take fluency to make any headway...I'm afraid I would just muddy the waters for myself if I tried to read the scriptures in those languages.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 8:32:37 GMT -5
Though until this point I have only "considered" studying Greek and/or Hebrew, I am conversant in a Pacific Island language - Marshallese - and even earn my livelihood through translating documents from English into Marshallese. Though my familiarity with Marshallese tells me absolutely nothing about the languages in which the scriptures were penned, it does illustrate well to me the utter impossibility of basing a doctrine on a specific meaning of a translated term. When reading the earlier thread on "scriptural terms," I wondered how we can insist on using the exact scriptural terms without using Hebrew and Greek. Every translation is an approximation at best. I am grateful for the translations available, and I am also appreciative of those who have invested the time to "get at" the original intent of the writers, and to share that knowledge with us, through whatever medium. Yes, same gratitude here for the attempts at getting at the most accurate translation. I'd love to know Greek and Hebrew. It would take fluency to make any headway...I'm afraid I would just muddy the waters for myself if I tried to read the scriptures in those languages. Truth be told, some of us can barely understand it in our own language let alone try to grapple with it in other languages;have you ever been to a convention wher there were foreign visiting workers who needed translators to help them to deliver their sermons?it did not take me very long to lose concentration, and sometimes I wondered what was the point of having them there.
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Post by rational on Apr 30, 2015 12:26:45 GMT -5
Yes, same gratitude here for the attempts at getting at the most accurate translation. I'd love to know Greek and Hebrew. It would take fluency to make any headway...I'm afraid I would just muddy the waters for myself if I tried to read the scriptures in those languages. Truth be told, some of us can barely understand it in our own language let alone try to grapple with it in other languages;have you ever been to a convention wher there were foreign visiting workers who needed translators to help them to deliver their sermons?it did not take me very long to lose concentration, and sometimes I wondered what was the point of having them there. And then once you master the mechanics of the language you need to put yourself in the environment where the language was being used at the time to completely understand the various idioms that were in play. What does it really mean if you heard it on the grapevine in the heat of the moment and realized that not everyone was playing with a full deck? And what would it mean in 2,000 years. Shakespeare and Thomas Nashe, writing in the same time period, both used the word nunnery with very different meanings. This does not address the fact that the oldest manuscripts available could have been the product of oral tradition or also a translation fraught the the same problems that the KJV translation faced.
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Post by withlove on Apr 30, 2015 14:58:15 GMT -5
Yes, same gratitude here for the attempts at getting at the most accurate translation. I'd love to know Greek and Hebrew. It would take fluency to make any headway...I'm afraid I would just muddy the waters for myself if I tried to read the scriptures in those languages. Truth be told, some of us can barely understand it in our own language let alone try to grapple with it in other languages;have you ever been to a convention wher there were foreign visiting workers who needed translators to help them to deliver their sermons?it did not take me very long to lose concentration, and sometimes I wondered what was the point of having them there. Haha, yes--no one seems to understand it completely in any language. One nice thing about the sermons that have to be translated is that they are often very well thought out and clear and condensed.
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Post by withlove on Apr 30, 2015 15:04:56 GMT -5
Truth be told, some of us can barely understand it in our own language let alone try to grapple with it in other languages;have you ever been to a convention wher there were foreign visiting workers who needed translators to help them to deliver their sermons?it did not take me very long to lose concentration, and sometimes I wondered what was the point of having them there. And then once you master the mechanics of the language you need to put yourself in the environment where the language was being used at the time to completely understand the various idioms that were in play. What does it really mean if you heard it on the grapevine in the heat of the moment and realized that not everyone was playing with a full deck? And what would it mean in 2,000 years. Shakespeare and Thomas Nashe, writing in the same time period, both used the word nunnery with very different meanings. This does not address the fact that the oldest manuscripts available could have been the product of oral tradition or also a translation fraught the the same problems that the KJV translation faced. That you are are on an internet message board.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 30, 2015 15:18:26 GMT -5
I think what is really interesting to me - and it was never MY dharma to investigate Truth by the study of languages - is that some quantum physicists have voiced a concern over our ability to conceptualize "reality" being limited by the English Language. (Which has become the dominant one.)
I love these lyrics from David Wilcox's "Native Tongue":
Truer words were never spoken You picked them up when you were young Maybe woven in a story That goes back to where you're from
Truer words were never spoken And for an audience of one But where you're healed is where you're broken And God knows your native tongue
So build a bridge with what's behind you The scattered pieces of your past Build it out over the chasm To the promised land at last
Start a bridge with what's behind you And God picks up where you've begun 'Cause where you look is where Love finds you And God knows your native tongue
Spoken words in Aramaic Sounds I wouldn't understand In a local ancient dialect For the people of that land
No little words can hold a candle To the splendor of the sun That can explain this world of wonder And shine the same on everyone
But little words can hold a candle All your own when darkness comes They're just the size for us to handle And God knows your native tongue © David Wilcox, all rights reserved
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 15:24:43 GMT -5
Truth be told, some of us can barely understand it in our own language let alone try to grapple with it in other languages;have you ever been to a convention wher there were foreign visiting workers who needed translators to help them to deliver their sermons?it did not take me very long to lose concentration, and sometimes I wondered what was the point of having them there. And then once you master the mechanics of the language you need to put yourself in the environment where the language was being used at the time to completely understand the various idioms that were in play. What does it really mean if you heard it on the grapevine in the heat of the moment and realized that not everyone was playing with a full deck? And what would it mean in 2,000 years. Shakespeare and Thomas Nashe, writing in the same time period, both used the word nunnery with very different meanings. This does not address the fact that the oldest manuscripts available could have been the product of oral tradition or also a translation fraught the the same problems that the KJV translation faced. Yep, let's face it, these are some of the unavoidable pitfalls we encounter, no doubt about that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 17:53:54 GMT -5
Thank you Alan, for responding as you have. I, also, know what it is to be paid, only by the court system to translate, apparently doing an acceptable job, though years ago.
In short, I agree with much of what has been presented here as perils in translating.
Some of you will recall I have recommended the "and you are there" concept in understanding translation clearly. My wives past and present have been fluent linguists. We have discussed these circumstances and situations at length. Further more, can anyone point to when I have been as dogmatic about my beliefs as the tone of some who post here?
Yes, I have a good education regarding what I post, but what good is that for anyone else? Many of you have equally or better sound educations than myself, does that give anyone the right to put others down for what they believe? It is called "belief" (scripturally the same as "faith" in Koine Greek, though at times one is in the noun form and the other in the verb form) and as strong as we might wish it to be, someones belief about such topics as presented here, rarely can be proven fact.
Now, I've expressed enough for today.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 20:31:41 GMT -5
I speak Greek. Want to READ what we call in Australia "Ancient Greek" ie the Koine as it would be interesting to read the NT in its native tongue.
But people often use the language of the bible to hold the bible above the heads of common people - people not versed in the original language. And Koine readers can read of what Jesus had to say about "wise" people. And in the Koine too we read what Paul said about "striving over words."
For the record - simply reading parallel bibles is an excellent way to grasp the intent of the text. Living the text is an even better way to learn.
People stumble over the simplicity of that.
In the OT the text was passed down through the ages, not word for word but for intent and meaning. So spending years learning Hebrew and Aramaic for instance won't get you as far as spending that time actually reading the bible.
And then there's *** faith *** that God reveals through His word, and in the bibles known to us over two thousand years God will ensure that the men who transcribe do so without losing what God wants us to learn.
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Post by slowtosee on May 1, 2015 21:27:17 GMT -5
I was somewhat surprised to hear a person say yesterday, that he believed a prayer spoken in Hebrew, "God 's language", had more "effect", than prayer in another language . This person happened to be fluent in Hebrew. Hmmmmmmmmm. As a young person, I prayed and "thought" and dreamt, etc, in the only language I knew, low German, I am not sure when and how exactly, and in what order, that changed to mostly English. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:37:21 GMT -5
Yes, Latin was used by the RCC to control doctrine and keep the bible from commoners. There is no sacred bible language, nor do we have to call God "Jehova" or Jesus "Yishua."
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Post by Mary on May 1, 2015 22:51:07 GMT -5
Latin was used by doctors when I was young too. I remember not being able to read the doctors notes because they were in Latin.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 2, 2015 20:41:56 GMT -5
Ich kann ein bischen Deutsch spreschen. Hablo un poquito espanol. Im ebwe aō jelā Kajin Ṃajel. Marunong ko konti lang Tagalog. Ngehi ese ekis ekis Lokaiahn Pohnpei.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on May 2, 2015 20:44:49 GMT -5
Ich kann ein bischen Deutsch spreschen. Hablo un poquito espanol. Hablo un poquito tambien. But fluent? Nah!
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Post by rational on May 2, 2015 22:22:05 GMT -5
Ich kann ein bischen Deutsch spreschen. Hablo un poquito espanol. Hablo un poquito tambien. But fluent? Nah! I struggle with english!
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hberry
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Post by hberry on May 2, 2015 23:02:35 GMT -5
Hablo un poquito tambien. But fluent? Nah! I struggle with english! Hey, who doesn't???
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Post by dmmichgood on May 3, 2015 0:58:40 GMT -5
I learned French and Latin at school. Yuck!! French came in handy when I was in France a few years back and it did not take long to pick up a few words, but my memory of Latin died out with the language. I have tried repeatedly to learn Arabic in recent years but alas, as we get older it is harder to take in a new language with many aspects of our cognitive functioning having reached their peak in our early years. Google translate helps with the written word. My Strongs concordance gives the Greek and Hebrews words/translations. Guess there would be some sites that also do these translations. In my freshman year in High School, I took Latin because I knew that it did influence medical terms and I wanted to go into nurses training.
I found that it did help in the general scheme of understanding medicine, as well as other disciplines.
As far as actually remembering how to write or say any full sentences, I can't.
Once I was able sing "Silent Night" in Latin but no more !
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2015 1:13:30 GMT -5
I'm one of those odd people who actually enjoys learning foreign languages. My earliest recollection of this fascination was when my maternal grandparents took a cousin and me to Grandpa's native village in Norway, when we two cousins were seven years old. They tell me I entertained relations and the village men who gathered at the village stores on certain mornings to await their mail with my recitation of Norwegian phrases.
The interest has served me well, even giving me a "feel" for the rhythms and meanings of the King James English with which I grew up, and I still love that translation, though by no means do I feel it is necessary to read from that translation. I actually prefer to read in a different translation (NIV right now), in which different phrasing tends to trigger thought and questions in my mind.
I am also "backwards" in that I learn the spoken aspect of a language more quickly than the hearing and understanding, and I can often impress people with my ability to correctly form and pronounce a sentence, but get in trouble soon after, when they assume that they can just fly off in their language at native speed, and I am soon lost! I have read that there are a small percentage of people who learn languages this way, and I have met one other person - and older sister worker who worked in Hong Kong - who said that she learns language in that order too.
This is a significant part of why I can do written translation, which is nearly always Marshallese to English, but find it difficult to do vocal interpretation, which goes both ways - Marshallese to English and English to Marshallese. My hearing loss makes the audio/vocal interpretation more difficult too.
Just a few musings . . .
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Post by BobWilliston on May 3, 2015 1:14:55 GMT -5
Je parle courament français. Ich sprache auch Deutsch, aber nich gut. Hablo español tambien – no perfecto, pero puedo explicar a los padres de mis alumnos que hacen sus niños en ls classe. Nini genu demahinih.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 3, 2015 1:19:27 GMT -5
I'm one of those odd people who actually enjoys learning foreign languages. My earliest recollection of this fascination was when my maternal grandparents took a cousin and me to Grandpa's native village in Norway, when we two cousins were seven years old. They tell me I entertained relations and the village men who gathered at the village stores on certain mornings to await their mail with my recitation of Norwegian phrases. The interest has served me well, even giving me a "feel" for the rhythms and meanings of the King James English with which I grew up, and I still love that translation, though by no means do I feel it is necessary to read from that translation. I actually prefer to read in a different translation (NIV right now), in which different phrasing tends to trigger thought and questions in my mind. I am also "backwards" in that I learn the spoken aspect of a language more quickly than the hearing and understanding, and I can often impress people with my ability to correctly form and pronounce a sentence, but get in trouble soon after, when they assume that they can just fly off in their language at native speed, and I am soon lost! I have read that there are a small percentage of people who learn languages this way, and I have met one other person - and older sister worker who worked in Hong Kong - who said that she learns language in that order too. Just a few musings . . . Actually Alan, you didn't learn the language backwards. Remember, everyone in this group spoke their first language fluently, for their age, before they ever went to school. It's the easiest way to learn a second language -- puts me greatly at odds with a lot of other language teachers in this country, but I've had students attend university in Paris straight from my high school class.....
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2015 1:21:03 GMT -5
Je parle courament français. Ich sprache auch Deutsch, aber nich gut. Hablo español tambien – no perfecto, pero puedo explicar a los padres de mis alumnos que hacen sus niños en ls classe. Nini genu demahinih. What's that last one? Bob stopped by to see me frequently on his way from work in the months I was laid up in my parents' home in Carson City, Nevada, following the "big bang" in August of '87, in which I broke both of my legs. We often talked language!
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on May 3, 2015 1:23:30 GMT -5
I'm one of those odd people who actually enjoys learning foreign languages. My earliest recollection of this fascination was when my maternal grandparents took a cousin and me to Grandpa's native village in Norway, when we two cousins were seven years old. They tell me I entertained relations and the village men who gathered at the village stores on certain mornings to await their mail with my recitation of Norwegian phrases. The interest has served me well, even giving me a "feel" for the rhythms and meanings of the King James English with which I grew up, and I still love that translation, though by no means do I feel it is necessary to read from that translation. I actually prefer to read in a different translation (NIV right now), in which different phrasing tends to trigger thought and questions in my mind. I am also "backwards" in that I learn the spoken aspect of a language more quickly than the hearing and understanding, and I can often impress people with my ability to correctly form and pronounce a sentence, but get in trouble soon after, when they assume that they can just fly off in their language at native speed, and I am soon lost! I have read that there are a small percentage of people who learn languages this way, and I have met one other person - and older sister worker who worked in Hong Kong - who said that she learns language in that order too. Just a few musings . . . Actually Alan, you didn't learn the language backwards. Remember, everyone in this group spoke their first language fluently, for their age, before they ever went to school. It's the easiest way to learn a second language -- puts me greatly at odds with a lot of other language teachers in this country, but I've had students attend university in Paris straight from my high school class..... Interesting! I often hear people saying how they pick up a foreign language "in the street," or how they can understand a language but can't speak it. I always preferred learning through a combination of books and sitting down with people - often children - to get pronunciation and usage of specific words.
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