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Post by fixit on May 6, 2015 16:50:47 GMT -5
Nathan, Wow! Who are the many on TMB that testify that you have a relationship with God that many in our fellowship don't I have the same belief, understanding as the early workers on the Godhead, Jesus is God, God is liken unto the Shamrock, but MANY of the current workers and the friends today do NOT have that kind of understanding today! They have lost that knowledge. If these early workers were alive today, they would be preaching and trying to impart the same knowledge as I do. There are still workers and the friends among us are trying to correct anti Jesus is NOT God among us If you read the bible (or notes of early worker sermons) with your Trinitarian glasses on, things will pop out at you to confirm your belief. However, I believe Trinitarian dogma was part of the religious confusion that early workers tried to leave behind in their efforts to get back to the first century church.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 6, 2015 19:59:33 GMT -5
It's a wonderful thing to be able to freely and openly honour and worship Christ as "my Lord and God" as Thomas put it.
It's reassuring to know that Jesus responded "blessed are those who have not seen, yet have believed".
It's wonderful to know that in the beginning the Word was with God and was God and the Word, Jesus the Son of God, became flesh and dwelt among us. Very clear, very plain.
I'm not too worried about what 2x2's believe - in my opinion it diminishes Jesus which probably works for them given that a 2x2 person also is required to believe that their ministry is the only true ministry on earth and that Jesus can only be accessed through this ministry. All of that ultimately creates questions in people's minds for which in the main they won't get answers from the workers so many will ultimately worship God in another Christian fellowship where they can get sensible answers.
However, what is interesting is the plurality of views:
- Most workers and a reasonable amount of friends believe that the Father only is God and stridently reject that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also wholly God. - A small number of workers (ie Review005) and a number of friends believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The workers can't preach it these days otherwise they are out of the work pretty quickly. If the friends mention it in meeting they are generally rebuked, sometimes publicly. So Review005 will say anonymously that Jesus on earth was fully God and fully man but he won't preach it. It's a bit like having TV through your computer - it's okay provided you don't tell anyone or display a TV. - The same workers and friends who believe that the Father only is God also understand that the Scripture commands that ONLY God is to be worshipped. - Yet the same workers and friends worship Jesus every week, fall at His feet, call Him the King of Kings but do not believe He is God ie they worship someone who is not God. Either they don't read what they sing or they ignore God's command in the Bible. - Fixit and Maryhig say they don't worship Jesus, only the Father. Assuming they heartily sing the hymns every week they are saying one thing and doing another. Fixit added that he believes that Jesus would be more than comfortable with him giving the praise/worship to the Father but then would sing the hymn "The Saviour bids me sing his praise....". Of course, the vast majority of hymns in the book are addressed to Jesus, our Saviour King.
Again, everyone seems comfortable with a plurality of views even if they involve internal inconsistencies and folk worshipping one who is not God in contravention of the Bible - as long as you don't talk about it too much.
The workers do not seem to be worried by this confusion as long as you support the workers and uphold the ministry and the meeting in the home.
Whilst I believe it would be nice for the 2x2's to sort out what they believe on core Christian teaching, it seems that it is still as confusing as ever. As I said earlier this will result in more people asking questions and reading the Bible more eagerly to find out who God is and what He is saying to them - which will be a good thing. The only challenge for the fellowship is when folk do this they may move to another Christian fellowship.
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Post by fixit on May 6, 2015 20:16:01 GMT -5
Ross, what is your definition of "God"?
Perhaps your confusion is caused by your understanding of what the word "God" means?
Also, your understanding of what "core Christian teaching" means is different to my understanding of what Jesus actually lived and taught.
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Post by fixit on May 6, 2015 22:25:12 GMT -5
If you read the bible (or notes of early worker sermons) with your Trinitarian glasses on, things will pop out at you to confirm your belief. However, I believe Trinitarian dogma was part of the religious confusion that early workers tried to leave behind in their efforts to get back to the first century church. Your belief on this point is not backed by the evidence. The early workers seemed very comfortable in leaving the following verse in the 1951 edition of Hymns Old and New - Hymn "Blest Redeemer". It's very specific - if you did not believe the very specific words they would most certainly have been removed from the 1951 edition. O praise the Father; praise the Son; Blest Spirit, praise to Thee; All praise to God, the Three in one, The One in Three. In the 1987 Hymn Book this verse 6 was removed from the Hymn - further tinkering with a Hymn written by a Christian. I have the 1951 edition here, and it doesn't include the verse you quoted.
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Post by fixit on May 6, 2015 22:38:08 GMT -5
As I have said many times previously, Jesus' primary mission in coming to earth wasn't to teach us how to live. He did that perfectly but His primary mission was to provide a solution for sin. When we repent and accept His solution for sin, we live for Him and His Holy Spirit works in us. He changes us to be more like Jesus. It is his work alone, but of course we are completely responsible for what we do with Jesus. You seem to be saying that "what we do with Jesus" is expressed by words and a belief system. I believe, as the early workers did, that "what we do with Jesus" is expressed in what we do with his commands.
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Post by Greg on May 7, 2015 2:11:09 GMT -5
But those who make it a big issue completely reject that Jesus, the Son of God is also wholly God and then completely reverse that position when fall at the feet of Christ each week and worship him. How do the friends and workers fall at the feet of Jesus each week? How do the friends and workers worship Jesus each week?
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 7, 2015 2:55:53 GMT -5
But those who make it a big issue completely reject that Jesus, the Son of God is also wholly God and then completely reverse that position when fall at the feet of Christ each week and worship him. How do the friends and workers fall at the feet of Jesus each week? How do the friends and workers worship Jesus each week? They sing hymns to God, the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. Hymns such as the following from their Hymn Book. “My Saviour bids me sing His praise…clothed in His righteousness complete…to fall and worship at His feet” (#233) “In spirit and in truth, We all must worship Thee, Who gave Thyself a sacrifice and died to set us free.” (#243) “With joy I worship at my Saviour’s feet. In wonder and amazement I adore, And plead for grace to love Him more and more…” (#250) “Bowed at Thy throne of grace – Jesus my Lord…” (#265) “Thou art worthy, thou art worthy, blessed Jesus Lord of All” (#385) “Thou art worthy – to receive all strength and honour, adoration, praise and love” (#385) “Come then sovereign King of Kinds, Lord of lords and Prince of Peace” (#70) “I am trusting Thee Lord Jesus, Trusting only Thee…” (#165) “Our daily source of peace is Christ alone, Dwelling within our hearts, upon the throne. To reign as King, His righteous sceptre sway…” (#316) "At Thy feet I fall, Yield Thee up my all,To suffer, live, or die For my Lord crucified." (#170) and others... Why would a person sing these words and worship Christ if they do not believe the Son of God is wholly God - only God is to be worshipped.
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Post by fixit on May 7, 2015 3:57:34 GMT -5
It's a dangerous thing to worship someone other than God as God in His word forbids it. Muslims and Jews consider Christians to be idolaters due to their trinity of gods.
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Post by fixit on May 7, 2015 4:02:09 GMT -5
It's odd that a worker who believes that Jesus was fully God and fully man (as per his November post) keeps harassing me about Trinity terminology which I very rarely use. In any case this is a short and helpful article. www.compellingtruth.org/Trinity.htmlThe first paragraph in the article is right!
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Post by Greg on May 7, 2015 4:13:15 GMT -5
How do the friends and workers fall at the feet of Jesus each week? How do the friends and workers worship Jesus each week? They sing hymns to God, the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. Hymns such as the following from their Hymn Book. “My Saviour bids me sing His praise…clothed in His righteousness complete…to fall and worship at His feet” (#233) “In spirit and in truth, We all must worship Thee, Who gave Thyself a sacrifice and died to set us free.” (#243) “With joy I worship at my Saviour’s feet. In wonder and amazement I adore, And plead for grace to love Him more and more…” (#250) “Bowed at Thy throne of grace – Jesus my Lord…” (#265) “Thou art worthy, thou art worthy, blessed Jesus Lord of All” (#385) “Thou art worthy – to receive all strength and honour, adoration, praise and love” (#385) “Come then sovereign King of Kinds, Lord of lords and Prince of Peace” (#70) “I am trusting Thee Lord Jesus, Trusting only Thee…” (#165) “Our daily source of peace is Christ alone, Dwelling within our hearts, upon the throne. To reign as King, His righteous sceptre sway…” (#316) "At Thy feet I fall, Yield Thee up my all,To suffer, live, or die For my Lord crucified." (#170) and others... Why would a person sing these words and worship Christ if they do not believe the Son of God is wholly God - only God is to be worshipped. Well, it's a mystery. Thank you.
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Post by fixit on May 7, 2015 5:24:29 GMT -5
They sing hymns to God, the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. Hymns such as the following from their Hymn Book. “My Saviour bids me sing His praise…clothed in His righteousness complete…to fall and worship at His feet” (#233) “In spirit and in truth, We all must worship Thee, Who gave Thyself a sacrifice and died to set us free.” (#243) “With joy I worship at my Saviour’s feet. In wonder and amazement I adore, And plead for grace to love Him more and more…” (#250) “Bowed at Thy throne of grace – Jesus my Lord…” (#265) “Thou art worthy, thou art worthy, blessed Jesus Lord of All” (#385) “Thou art worthy – to receive all strength and honour, adoration, praise and love” (#385) “Come then sovereign King of Kinds, Lord of lords and Prince of Peace” (#70) “I am trusting Thee Lord Jesus, Trusting only Thee…” (#165) “Our daily source of peace is Christ alone, Dwelling within our hearts, upon the throne. To reign as King, His righteous sceptre sway…” (#316) "At Thy feet I fall, Yield Thee up my all,To suffer, live, or die For my Lord crucified." (#170) and others... Why would a person sing these words and worship Christ if they do not believe the Son of God is wholly God - only God is to be worshipped. Well, it's a mystery. Thank you. It's interesting that Trinitarians speak much of the mystery of their theory, yet they say we're confused for using Biblical terminology instead of man-made theory. First paragraph of Ross's short article: Last paragraph of Ross's short article:
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 10:09:28 GMT -5
Your belief on this point is not backed by the evidence. The early workers seemed very comfortable in leaving the following verse in the 1951 edition of Hymns Old and New - Hymn "Blest Redeemer". It's very specific - if you did not believe the very specific words they would most certainly have been removed from the 1951 edition. O praise the Father; praise the Son; Blest Spirit, praise to Thee; All praise to God, the Three in one, The One in Three. In the 1987 Hymn Book this verse 6 was removed from the Hymn - further tinkering with a Hymn written by a Christian. Ross, your statement on this point isn't backed by the evidence either. I have a 1951 edition of 'Hymns Old and New' in front of me, and that verse definitely does not appear. The words used in 1951 are the same as those used in 1987, except the "v" is omitted from "even" in the 1951 edition. If you google the words of the hymn, which is called 'Our Blest Redeemer' by the way, you'll find the hymn on several websites. It was written by Harriet Auber, and had 8 verses, of which 5 are in the hymnbook and the original verses 2, 3 and 8 were omitted. Interestingly, it would appear that most of the other Christian churches using this hymn have omitted some or all of the same verses. If you like to look at www.hymnary.org you will find a number of scanned pages from hymnals that use this hymn. I found the complete hymn in a Methodist hymnbook, and only one other book that used the words quoted above, omitting a different verse instead. I haven't looked through all 475 uses of the hymn, so maybe you'll find more. However, it appears that there are a lot of other Christians "tinkering" with hymns. The Anglican Hymnbook of 1965 also omits the verse you quoted above.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 10:29:01 GMT -5
Now, I am not always in agreement of how you show up here. But I think this is a very legitimate question. I wonder why they called Jesus "Lord" in so many places. Most often it is termed "God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ..." I wonder what the difference between God and Lord is - someone might look up the Hebrew. Both mean exactly the same and it was a way of Paul and others differentiating between the Father and the Son. Lord essentially means "boss" - one who has all power, authority and control. Sounds like the Father! Sounds like God! Lord was a word similar to Mister, Boss, Master, etc. It was used of humans all the time. It wasn't necessarily a word used for God. The reason people think Lord means GOD is because the name JEHOVAH in the Old Testament is translated as LORD, out of a sign of respect for the name of JEHOVAH. If you remember, the Jews wouldn't say the name JEHOVAH or YAHWEH. Apparatnly, Bible translators followed this superstition and simply put the word LORD where the personal name of God was supposed to be. Lord does NOT mean God.
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Post by fixit on May 7, 2015 16:31:23 GMT -5
Ross Bowden has posted on this thread PS I should add that I try to answer all questions as best and as honestly as I can. I do not answer review005's questions or engage in dialogue for reasons that are well known. When a poster posts under their own name and is then subject to emotional blackmail in relation to their family members by an anonymous worker poster I simply won't engage in communication with that person. Once Ross supplies his evidence for claim it can be taken seriously. The real reason for Ross refusing to engage in dialogue is that when he makes incorrect and baseless statements in his posts I respond and ask him to substantiate them...which he has been unable to do. You did mention Ross's father in a post and that was insensitive and unnecessary. Perhaps you could apologise for that?
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Post by fixit on May 7, 2015 16:40:06 GMT -5
explain what was insensitive and unnecessary about it please Insensitive in that Ross is probably still grieving. Unnecessary in that Ross's dad has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.
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Post by fixit on May 7, 2015 16:56:32 GMT -5
How I have used ' emotional blackmail' or how I have been 'insensitive' will need to be explained by those making the allegations and supported by posts where I have used emotional blackmail and been insensitive. It was on another thread before this one I think, where you referred to Ross's dad.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 20:56:17 GMT -5
Lord was a word similar to Mister, Boss, Master, etc. It was used of humans all the time. It wasn't necessarily a word used for God. The reason people think Lord means GOD is because the name JEHOVAH in the Old Testament is translated as LORD, out of a sign of respect for the name of JEHOVAH. If you remember, the Jews wouldn't say the name JEHOVAH or YAHWEH. Apparatnly, Bible translators followed this superstition and simply put the word LORD where the personal name of God was supposed to be. Lord does NOT mean God.
~~~ The word with capital "L" Lord/Adonai means God/Yahweh.... The word lord with small "l" means boss or human master.~~ Someone wrote: Jesus is the Lord with Capital "L"/Yahweh/God. In most English translations "Elohim" is translated fairly consistently as "God," and YHWH (often written Yahweh) is translated as "the LORD" (in capital letters). As Yahweh was the holy, personal name for God, it was particularly sacred to the children of the Israelite people, and there came a time when it was felt to be too sacred to be spoken by human lips. So, in speaking about God in public reading of the scriptures, another word, "Adonai" (which mean "Lord"), was always used instead. The word YHWH still appears in the text, but was (and by Jewish people still is) always read as "Adonai." Bear this carefully in mind when we come to examine the New Testament titles given to Jesus Christ!Jesus is the Lord/Yahweh of the Sabbath. In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said, "Think NOT, that I come to DESTROY the law, or the prophets: I am NOT come to destroy, but to FULFILL."Question: "What does it mean that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath?"Answer: The phrase “the Lord of the Sabbath” is found in Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, and Luke 6:5. In all three instances Jesus is referring to Himself as the Lord of the Sabbath or as Mark records it: “The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28). In these verses, Jesus is proclaiming that He is the One who exercises authority even over the rules and regulations that govern the Sabbath day. As such, Jesus was proclaiming to the world, especially to the legalistic Pharisees, that He was greater than the law and above the laws of the Mosaic Covenant because, as God in flesh, He is the Author of those laws. Unable to keep the Law, however, the Pharisees had instituted a complex and confusing system of Sabbath laws of their own which were oppressive and legalistic. They had set up strict laws regarding how to observe the Sabbath which included thirty-nine categories of forbidden activities. In essence, these religious leaders had made themselves lords of the Sabbath, thus making themselves lords over the people. As Creator, Christ was the original Lord of the Sabbath (John 1:3; Hebrews 1:10). He had the authority to overrule the Pharisees' traditions and regulations because He had created the Sabbath—and the Creator is always greater than the creation. Furthermore, Jesus claimed the authority to correctly interpret the meaning of the Sabbath and all the laws pertaining to it. Because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, He is free to do on it and with it whatever He pleases. As Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus had the right, power and authority to dispense it in any way He pleased, even to the abolishing of it and reinstituting it as the Lord’s Day, a day of worship. Since the Lord of the Sabbath had come, He who is the only true “Sabbath rest” made the old Law of the Sabbath no longer needed or binding. When He said “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27), Jesus was attesting to the fact that just as the Sabbath day was originally instituted to give man rest from his labors, so did He come to provide us rest from laboring to achieve our own salvation by our works. Because of His sacrifice on the cross, we can now forever cease laboring to attain God’s favor and rest in His mercy and grace. To tell you the truth, I've never really thought about WHY Jesus is called Lord of the Sabbath. In Mark 2:28 Jesus says "The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath." 1) If you take the bible verse above IN CONTEXT, you will notice that Jesus explains WHY he is lord of the Sabbath, and it has nothing to do with him being God. Otherwise, one would have to include David 'and those that were with him' as God also, as they are clearly alluded to as being lords of the Sabbath, since Jesus speaks of them as breaking the law and being blameless, and also says "the Sabbath was made for MAN and not man for the Sabbath." 2) Jesus was clearly fluent in the scriptures, as were the priests, etc. of the day. Jesus was aware of Numbers 23:19 which reads, "God is NOT A MAN that He should lie, NOR THE SON OF MAN, that He should change His mind." We all know that Jesus was a man. We all know that he called himself THE SON OF MAN. He was quite aware of this passage in Numbers 23:19. He therefore PUPROSEFULLY separated himself from the Person of God. 3) Jesus did not sin. The law was made for SINNERS. Those who sin are under the law. One who do not sin are NOT under the law. Therefore, Jesus was lord of the Sabbath. If he'd sinned, he would be a SLAVE to the law (and also be under its penalty, which is death). 4) As the Son of God (not God the Son), he was heir of all things. As heir of all things, he was clearly lord of the Law.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 10:01:10 GMT -5
To tell you the truth, I've never really thought about WHY Jesus is called Lord of the Sabbath. In Mark 2:28 Jesus says "The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath." 1) If you take the bible verse above IN CONTEXT, you will notice that Jesus explains WHY he is lord of the Sabbath, and it has nothing to do with him being God. Otherwise, one would have to include David 'and those that were with him' as God also, as they are clearly alluded to as being lords of the Sabbath, since Jesus speaks of them as breaking the law and being blameless, and also says "the Sabbath was made for MAN and not man for the Sabbath." 2) Jesus was clearly fluent in the scriptures, as were the priests, etc. of the day. Jesus was aware of Numbers 23:19 which reads, "God is NOT A MAN that He should lie, NOR THE SON OF MAN, that He should change His mind." We all know that Jesus was a man. We all know that he called himself THE SON OF MAN. He was quite aware of this passage in Numbers 23:19. He therefore PUPROSEFULLY separated himself from the Person of God. 3) Jesus did not sin. The law was made for SINNERS. Those who sin are under the law. One who do not sin are NOT under the law. Therefore, Jesus was lord of the Sabbath. If he'd sinned, he would be a SLAVE to the law (and also be under its penalty, which is death). 4) As the Son of God (not God the Son), he was heir of all things. As heir of all things, he was clearly lord of the Law.
If the Son/Christ= Jesus is NOT God then why did the Father called the Son, "God and Lord" who laid the foundation of the earth in Hebrews 1:8-10?8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:Nathan, you didn't even reply to the comment I made about your assertion that Jesus must be God if he's called "Lord of the Sabbath." I think my reply to you was perfectly logical. Why do you keep throwing bible verses out there, but you don't respond to the answers people give you. You make me feel like I'm walking up to my mail box. I know what I'll get: more mailings, more inserts, more advertisements. I'm not going to play 'tag' with posts. If you aren't going to answer replies to your posts, then what's the point?
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 20:59:08 GMT -5
Nathan, you didn't even reply to the comment I made about your assertion that Jesus must be God if he's called "Lord of the Sabbath." I think my reply to you was perfectly logical. Why do you keep throwing bible verses out there, but you don't respond to the answers people give you. You make me feel like I'm walking up to my mail box. I know what I'll get: more mailings, more inserts, more advertisements. I'm not going to play 'tag' with posts. If you aren't going to answer replies to your posts, then what's the point? I posted the article the Lord means Adonai/Yahweh God of the Sabbath and you believe the Lord mean earthly Master, ruler. So, I let the readers decide for themselves to who is correct. I have done my part, and you did your part. So, the point is I don't need to explain any further on the Jesus is the Lord/Adonai God of the Sabbath.
I post this to Review005 so I want to share with you.... Jesus is God! according to KJV. Going back to Jesus is NOT God topic.No Nathan I will not answer yes to this question which comes couched in a phrase from your trinity influenced mind. (Please remember as I have stated numerous times I am not 'anti trinity'. ) But before you jump to any conclusions you can read below why I answered as I did. My answer is yes if you are asking is Jesus divine. I confess and acknowledge that he is divine and there is one God not three. No I do not call Jesus God. The Bible refers to Jesus directly many many times as the Son of God and that is the term I also use. The number of times when he directly referred to as God is a mere handful by comparision (but always get quoted by the posters on this thread that love trinity terms such as triune, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit etc) Many times when the word God is used in the Bible it clearly refers only to the Father. This is one of the reasons for conflict and lack of agreement by pro trinity posters and others on this board. I feel right and comfortable with the Biblical 'Son of God' to refer to Jesus. I understand the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit are three separate persons with ontological equality but economic/functional subordination who are one/united in a way that can be apprehended but not comprehended by the human mind. I've found no need to go beyond Biblical terminology to refer to our Heavenly Father, his Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I am left 'scratching my head' wondering why trinity minded posters feel there need for any more than the terminology of the Bible. If you consider any of the statements I have made in this post to be heterodox or unsound incorrect doctrine I will be pleased for you to document such in your next post This is from our own KJV Bible... What are you going to do when it says Jesus is God!1) The apostle wrote in John 1:1-3;10 In the beginning was the Word/Son and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same in the beginning with God. ALL things were made by Him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Verse 10) He was in the world and the world was made by Him, and the world knew him NOT. (Verse 14) And the Word was made flesh, and lived among us, full of grace and truth. 2) Hebrews 1:8-10 But unto the Son, He (the Father) saith, "Thy throne, O God, is ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, has anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, thou Lord (Son) in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hand. 3) The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God." Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:24-29 4)Before! Jesus was born in Luke 2:46-47. Mary said, " My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."5) Paul wrote in I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, PREACHED to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory. ~~ Now, I am scratching my head! why aren't you believe in the Scriptures? Saying Jesus is NOT God in the Bible? when these scriptures in the Bible teaches so plainly and clearly saying that He is! Are you going to TOSS these verses out of the KJV Bible and say it doesn't exist?So, there's really no reason to reply to your posts, and take time to research and reply to your statements, since you wont necessarily reply to the clear scriptures. This makes me think that you must not have any good reply to my answer. If that's how you feel about debate/discussion, it's clear that there's no reason to read your posts or respond to them.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 22:29:33 GMT -5
Well, I just read the chapter. It's speaking of the Father, and it's speaking of the Son. This is what at I notice about the chapter (in reference to the Father and the Son): 1) this is the revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE HIM (in other words, it wasn't Jesus' revelation. God gave it to him, to give to John). 2) Verses 4 & 5 show who is "the First and the Last." Verse 4 says "Grace to you and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come....." then verse 5 says, "AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth." So, it's clear that the Father is the First and the Last, because verse 5 clarifies this when it reads, "AND FROM JESUS CHRIST." 3) Verse 7 speaks of Jesus coming back, and the reference to Jesus ends there with the AMEN. Thus, verse 8 is in reference to the Father, as the statement about Jesus ended with the AMEN. 4) There's a lot of going back-and-forth in reference to the Father and the Son in the whole book of Revelation. But, it's clear that the Father is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last in this chapter. 5) I believe Jesus is also called the Fist and the Last. This is not a name, but it would be in reference to his ministry (being the firstborn from the dead, and he being the final sacrifice, etc.) You keep mentioning that we worship Jesus (fall at his feet) when we sing to him. Yes, we do worship Jesus. We adore Jesus. This is because God has placed His name upon the Son. In the Son we see the Father. No one comes unto the Father but via the Son. This does NOT mean that Jesus is equal with the Father. It simply shows that Jesus is the Mediator between God and man. We approach the Father through the Son. Jesus is the Go-between. It's not until everything is perfected that God Himself will dwell with man, after Jesus has perfected all things. Not until then can it be said that "...and God Himself shall be with them, and He shall be their God." Revelation 21:1-4. If Jesus was God, then the oomph of Revelation 21:1-4 is depleted. The passage wouldn't mean much.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 8, 2015 23:00:35 GMT -5
Review are you serious ! You won't give a straight or consistent answer about an ex-worker who was jailed for CSA being re-baptised ! As to a consistent answers from your church on its own CSA issues well need I say more !
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Post by dmmichgood on May 8, 2015 23:31:02 GMT -5
Review are you serious ! You won't give a straight or consistent answer about an ex-worker who was jailed for CSA being re-baptised ! As to a consistent answers from your church on its own CSA issues well need I say more ! When has Review ever given "a straight or consistent answer about" anything?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 9, 2015 0:06:24 GMT -5
So Review are you saying you have never met Clyde or Noel ? You don't know the Head Worker of NSW ! I also told you that I grew up with some of Noel Harvey's victims, are you implying that I am lying Review? I cannot believe the lengths you will go to not to answer a question but of course its only Ross's church ministers that don't give consistent answers isn't it ?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 9, 2015 0:53:40 GMT -5
Review are you saying you don't know Clyde Mackay, the present head worker of NSW ? What information do you exactly want Review ?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 9, 2015 1:22:43 GMT -5
So Review are you saying you have never met Clyde or Noel ? You don't know the Head Worker of NSW ! I also told you that I grew up with some of Noel Harvey's victims, are you implying that I am lying Review? I cannot believe the lengths you will go to not to answer a question but of course its only Ross's church ministers that don't give consistent answers isn't it ? I stand by each statement I made in the post. If you wish to accuse me of lying you are welcome to do so. I will not be responding to any more posts you address to me about the situation until you provide me with the information I requested that will enable me to comment meaningfully on it. Just the usual response of a non-response!
Review005, Do you honestly think that we haven't heard those kinds of worker non-responses so much that we can spot them a mile (or a 1000 miles) away?
You must think that we are real naive or stupid!
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Post by Roselyn T on May 9, 2015 1:27:49 GMT -5
Exactly dmmg ! It is so obvious rather than answer a direct question, they put stipulations on what we must do before they answer !
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Post by dmmichgood on May 9, 2015 2:01:20 GMT -5
Exactly dmmg ! It is so obvious rather than answer a direct question, they put stipulations on what we must do before they answer ! OMG, yes! I am amazed that a younger worker would actually still think that is going to work these days!
Maybe review005 is a much older worker than I thought.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 4:24:38 GMT -5
Exactly dmmg ! It is so obvious rather than answer a direct question, they put stipulations on what we must do before they answer ! well why not?
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