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Post by fixit on Apr 24, 2015 23:32:36 GMT -5
It sounds like the Trinitarians are the ones being burned at the stake in the 2x2s. A bit like religious purging. One for the Je suis Charlie thread not to mention eaves dropping. The early workers (William Irvine, John Long, etc) and many of senior workers in the past, and today taught the Trinity/Triune God. We have Dennis J. who have testified the Godhead was taught during the 1960-70s... George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Mable Gibson,
Senior workers taught the Triune God in 1980-2015s. Leo Stancliff, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson, etc.
I believe Truitt got into trouble for teaching "the impeccable sin" getting Christ's nature and Jesus nature mixed up. Unfortunately, Many of the overseers, senior workers in 1980s did NOT believe Jesus is God so that didn't help the situation. The 2x2 Overseers believe the Trinity is Roman Catholic Church doctrine and is the Devil's doctrine so it had to be STAMPED out. In their minds God refers ONLY to the Father, the confusion came from both camps Truitt's and the 2x2 overseers during this time. I was in the work in Bozeman, Montana field 1990-91 with Gary Paul when Truitt came down from Alaska and stayed at his parents home.
Impeccability sin (Roman Catholic Church doctrine)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeccability
Nathan, I think you've been pretty loose with the facts in this post. I don't believe all those workers you listed taught the triune god.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 23:34:09 GMT -5
The early workers (William Irvine, John Long, etc) and many of senior workers in the past, and today taught the Trinity/Triune God. We have Dennis J. who have testified the Godhead was taught during the 1960-70s... George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Mable Gibson,
Senior workers taught the Triune God in 1980-2015s. Leo Stancliff, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson, etc.
I believe Truitt got into trouble for teaching "the impeccable sin" getting Christ's nature and Jesus nature mixed up. Unfortunately, Many of the overseers, senior workers in 1980s did NOT believe Jesus is God so that didn't help the situation. The 2x2 Overseers believe the Trinity is Roman Catholic Church doctrine and is the Devil's doctrine so it had to be STAMPED out. In their minds God refers ONLY to the Father, the confusion came from both camps Truitt's and the 2x2 overseers during this time. I was in the work in Bozeman, Montana field 1990-91 with Gary Paul when Truitt came down from Alaska and stayed at his parents home.
Impeccability sin (Roman Catholic Church doctrine)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeccability
Nathan, I think you've been pretty loose with the facts in this post. I don't believe all those workers you listed taught the triune god. agreed
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 0:57:25 GMT -5
Here is an article written by John W when he was a worker: John has a clear understanding the Word God refers to the Father AND Jesus (2005). Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 7:14. "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (Immanuel means "God with us.") The scriptures contain many names and titles given to the Lord Jesus, such as the ones included in these verses. The more we understand the many aspects of His nature and the unique roles that He plays in the experience of mankind, the better we can glorify Him, as He so richly deserves. The better we know Him, the more we love and appreciate Him for who He is in His infinite, eternal, divine nature as well as for the greatness of the work He has accomplished. As a child growing up with constant exposure to God's word and the message of the Lord Jesus, I most often thought of Him as the Son of God, since that is a description that the scripture often uses to refer to Him. As years passed, however, I began to see that at times the scriptures refer to Jesus simply as "God" -- as in the above verses from Isaiah -- instead of "Son of God". This seemed a paradox, and is a point of great confusion for people who persist in thinking according to the familiar human patterns. We find it hard to understand how someone could ever be both God and God's Son at the same time. However, the infinity of God's nature is definitely not limited as our human mind is limited. As we open ourselves to His guidance and teaching, His Spirit enables us to see beyond what the human spirit can perceive. "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) It helps us to grasp more about God when we understand that "God" is not necessarily used as a proper name denoting one particular individual as we think of individuals, but is rather one particular spirit or nature. For this reason that "God" can refer not only to the eternal Father, but also to His Son, our Lord Jesus. Again, we need to lay aside human thinking patterns as we contemplate the unique nature of the Lord Jesus. Though He was conceived miraculously in the womb of His virgin mother by the Holy Spirit, He was not half-human, half-divine, as we would normally think of human beings that possess a part of their father's nature and a part of their mother's. Jesus was all divine, possessing all of the nature of His Father, as well as being all human, possessing all of our nature. Several scriptures help us understand this truth: "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9) "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." (Philippians 2:6-7) "He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." (Hebrews 2:17) Because the Lord Jesus possesses all the nature of His Father, the scriptures call Him God as well as Son of God. Here are a few examples: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. " (John 1:1, 14) We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. [/color] (1 John 5:20) About the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever." (Hebrews 1:8) The Old Testament in the original Hebrew language frequently uses a unique, unpronounceable name of God, YHWH. This name was considered so sacred that when the scriptures were read, the Jewish readers did not even attempt to pronounce the name, but instead substituted the word "Adonai", which means "Lord". This practice carried over into the New Testament; the writers who cited scriptures from the Old Testament wrote "Kurios", the Greek equivalent of "Adonai" ("Lord"), instead of the unpronounceable sacred name. The translators of most English versions of the Bible have chosen to translate YHWH as "LORD", written with four capital letters to differentiate it from "lord" and "Lord", words which denote "owner" or "master" (either human or divine) instead of the unique sacred name. The point of all this is that a number of times where we read "LORD" in the Old Testament, it is making direct reference to Jesus instead of God the Father. See the following examples: "My eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." (Isaiah 6:5) Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. (John 12:41) "You, O LORD, sit enthroned forever; your renown endures through all generations." (Psalm 102:12) (Hebrews 1:8,) which we have already quoted, assures us that this psalm is speaking of the Son. " 'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.'" (Jeremiah 23:5-6) All of these verses and a number of others show us that our Lord Jesus is, along with His Father, the LORD of the Old Testament, the one who is proclaimed to be the only true God. "All kingdoms on earth may know that you alone, O LORD, are God." (2 Kings 19:19) When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He identified Himself in a unique way: "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14) The Lord Jesus used this same phrase to identify Himself to the Jews in His day: "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!' (John 8:58) While the English grammar may not convey the distinction as clearly as the original languages, it was very clear to the Jews that heard Him that He was identifying Himself with God, the eternal I AM, and because of this supposed blasphemy, they picked up stones to stone Him, just as they did when He proclaimed, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) True believers, however, see that, far from usurping God's name, power, and authority, Jesus, being God in very nature, deserves our honor, worship, and praise just as the Father does. "All may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him." (John 5:23) It mentioning that when we say Jesus is God or that Father and Son are one, we are not saying that Jesus is the Father or that they are only one person. They are one in the sense that they are perfectly united in nature, in spirit, in purpose, in love, in power, and in every other way. The nature of their unity is made clear in Jesus' prayer to His Father before the crucifixion. "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name -- the name you gave me -- so that they may be one as we are one... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (John 17:11, 21-23) Just as God's people can by His Spirit be perfectly united with each other while remaining distinct persons, so it is with the Son and Father: perfectly united in nature, yet readily identifiable as two persons.Philippians 2:5-11 gives a beautiful picture of the work Jesus accomplished while on earth, also showing a great deal of the relationship between Son and Father: "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death -- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Every step that the Lord Jesus took to become a man, and every step He took as a man was a step of willing, humble obedience to His Father's will, since it was likewise His own will. Understanding that He was "in very nature God" helps us to understand how greatly He humbled Himself to become a human being. As if it were not enough to take on human nature with its frailty, Jesus was born into a family of the poorest people; so poor they could not even offer the usual lamb for the purification offering after His birth. After some years of exile in Egypt, he was brought up in Nazareth, a town of dubious reputation. When He was thirty years old, He voluntarily left His home and family, such as they were, and became a homeless vagabond preacher, repeatedly suffering abuse, scorn and disbelief at the hands of those whom He had come to save. At last, after a life of self-denial and sacrifice, he was subjected to the ignominious death of crucifixion. As we contemplate each experience in His life, let us remember, this is not just a man, this is God! A hymn says, "Amazing love! How can it be that Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?" Because of His will to humble Himself so completely for us, He is exalted to the highest place, forever worthy of all our Praise and Worship. "Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27) It is indeed overwhelming to think that this one who is our God, having once taken upon Himself the limitations of human flesh, would choose to do so again and again as He dwells in the believers, yet that is exactly what He does! The scripture gives many pictures of the work He will do as He walks in His people in every generation, including our own. "(God) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions -- it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:5-6) He takes us in all our deadness and gives us divine, eternal life. He gives us access to the fellowship of heaven. "I pray ... that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 1:18-20) He shares with us the same power by which death was conquered forever in the resurrection! "We are heirs -- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ." (Romans 8:17) He makes us joint heirs with Himself, sharing with Him in all the richness of the provision of His eternal kingdom. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world... I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." (John 17:24-26) Jesus shares with us the special love between Him and His Father, making us partakers in the same intimate relationship that they have enjoyed from eternity No mere man, no angel could ever do for us what our Lord Jesus has done. The more we learn of who He is and how great His power is on our behalf, the more we bow in humble adoration and marvel at what He has done and is doing for us! Irvine writing about what he did during the war 1914-1918 while he was in America... After spending a year in car all over the states, I spent a year alone in San Diego in a shack and there I got to see and taste much of the tenderness and love of God and Jesus which I could see was lacking in our interpretation of Jesus as the way, truth and life… Then I went amongst Testimony friends and workers to find the Devil and Satan had swamped them, and it was rather a painful experience but the only way I could have been convinced of their condition. And every bit of evidence that I had these past 21 years is but added proof of the terrible condition of every seed who would open their mouth against the man whom they owed everything under God the Trinity to. (Oct 20, 1935 Letter to Sandy Hinds, Australia) Here are names of different workers sermons teaching the Triune God/Godhead. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/8/word-god-refer-father?page=1[/quote]of none of that do i disagree with, i disagree with the terms trinity and triune God, they are man made terms not made by God or The Lord Jesus they are terms created by man to try to explain how they see God but not understanding that God gives that image of Himself privately to those who love and serve Him
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2015 1:10:13 GMT -5
Here is an article written by John W when he was a worker: John has a clear understanding the Word God refers to the Father AND Jesus (2005). Your problem, Nathan, is that John W was neither an early worker nor a "mainstream" worker. Quoting him to support what the early workers believed is not at all convincing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 1:15:07 GMT -5
The New Testament clearly records the many who fell down and worshipped the one now known as "Jesus" who's given name was "Yahu'shuah" which meant, "God/Savior!" Now those then actually Worshipped Him. Scripture everywhere prohibits worshipping anyone but God.
Carson Cowan believed the three were one. Furthermore, from his witness he was taught to understand that fact by George Walker, who used the shamrock as an example for Carson to later use.
So what if you professing guys don't wish to worship "Jesus?" That is your right along with anyone else unwilling to bow down in worship of Him as being God and one with the Father, with whom He is now sitting down with The Father in His Father's throne Read Rev. 3:21 if my memory serves me correctly. How is it possible? For me, quite simple, they are of the same Spirit Being substance.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2015 1:15:54 GMT -5
of none of that do i disagree with, i disagree with the terms trinity and triune God, they are man made terms not made by God or The Lord Jesus they are terms created by man to try to explain how they see God but not understanding that God gives that image of Himself privately to those who love and serve Him FWIW those concepts originated in Paganism, and were adopted, along with the vocabulary, by the Roman church in about the third century.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 1:16:32 GMT -5
Here is an article written by John W when he was a worker: John has a clear understanding the Word God refers to the Father AND Jesus (2005). Your problem, Nathan, is that John W was neither an early worker nor a "mainstream" worker. Quoting him to support what the early workers believed is not at all convincing. i don't see anything wrong with nathan using JW i just think that he is miss quoting by saying workers sermons teaching the Triune God/Godhead which is plainly not so because they are never mentioned once in JWs sermon
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2015 1:21:51 GMT -5
Your problem, Nathan, is that John W was neither an early worker nor a "mainstream" worker. Quoting him to support what the early workers believed is not at all convincing. i don't see anything wrong with nathan using JW i just think that he is miss quoting by saying workers sermons teaching the Triune God/Godhead which is plainly not so because they are never mentioned once in JWs sermon I wasn't disputing anything about what JW wrote, just attempting to support your "man made" comment with the actual Pagan origin -- assuming 2x2s consider things Pagan to be man made. But as for Nathan making a solid argument for or against something, ......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 1:34:47 GMT -5
The New Testament clearly records the many who fell down and worshipped the one now known as "Jesus" who's given name was "Yahu'shuah" which meant, "God/Savior!" Now those then actually Worshipped Him. Scripture everywhere prohibits worshipping anyone but God.
Carson Cowan believed the three were one. Furthermore, from his witness he was taught to understand that fact by George Walker, who used the shamrock as an example for Carson to later use.
So what if you professing guys don't wish to worship "Jesus?" That is your right along with anyone else unwilling to bow down in worship of Him as being God and one with the Father, with whom He is now sitting down with The Father in His Father's throne Read Rev. 3:21 if my memory serves me correctly. How is it possible? For me, quite simple, they are of the same Spirit Being substance. i see nothing wrong with what you write and believe so myself, my issue is the use of man made terms used to try to explain this. isn't it enough to know just as you have said that they are of the same Spirit isn't it enough to believe and understand this as Jesus said John 10:30 I and my Father are one. but also to believe this also and understand 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. and to believe this also and understand 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. without the need to add man made terms to try to explain them?
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Post by maryhig on Apr 25, 2015 1:37:42 GMT -5
Here is an article written by John W when he was a worker: John has a clear understanding the Word God refers to the Father AND Jesus (2005). Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 7:14. "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (Immanuel means "God with us.") The scriptures contain many names and titles given to the Lord Jesus, such as the ones included in these verses. The more we understand the many aspects of His nature and the unique roles that He plays in the experience of mankind, the better we can glorify Him, as He so richly deserves. The better we know Him, the more we love and appreciate Him for who He is in His infinite, eternal, divine nature as well as for the greatness of the work He has accomplished. As a child growing up with constant exposure to God's word and the message of the Lord Jesus, I most often thought of Him as the Son of God, since that is a description that the scripture often uses to refer to Him. As years passed, however, I began to see that at times the scriptures refer to Jesus simply as "God" -- as in the above verses from Isaiah -- instead of "Son of God". This seemed a paradox, and is a point of great confusion for people who persist in thinking according to the familiar human patterns. We find it hard to understand how someone could ever be both God and God's Son at the same time. However, the infinity of God's nature is definitely not limited as our human mind is limited. As we open ourselves to His guidance and teaching, His Spirit enables us to see beyond what the human spirit can perceive. "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) It helps us to grasp more about God when we understand that "God" is not necessarily used as a proper name denoting one particular individual as we think of individuals, but is rather one particular spirit or nature. For this reason that "God" can refer not only to the eternal Father, but also to His Son, our Lord Jesus. Again, we need to lay aside human thinking patterns as we contemplate the unique nature of the Lord Jesus. Though He was conceived miraculously in the womb of His virgin mother by the Holy Spirit, He was not half-human, half-divine, as we would normally think of human beings that possess a part of their father's nature and a part of their mother's. Jesus was all divine, possessing all of the nature of His Father, as well as being all human, possessing all of our nature. Several scriptures help us understand this truth: "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9) "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." (Philippians 2:6-7) "He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." (Hebrews 2:17) Because the Lord Jesus possesses all the nature of His Father, the scriptures call Him God as well as Son of God. Here are a few examples: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. " (John 1:1, 14) We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. [/color] (1 John 5:20) About the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever." (Hebrews 1:8) The Old Testament in the original Hebrew language frequently uses a unique, unpronounceable name of God, YHWH. This name was considered so sacred that when the scriptures were read, the Jewish readers did not even attempt to pronounce the name, but instead substituted the word "Adonai", which means "Lord". This practice carried over into the New Testament; the writers who cited scriptures from the Old Testament wrote "Kurios", the Greek equivalent of "Adonai" ("Lord"), instead of the unpronounceable sacred name. The translators of most English versions of the Bible have chosen to translate YHWH as "LORD", written with four capital letters to differentiate it from "lord" and "Lord", words which denote "owner" or "master" (either human or divine) instead of the unique sacred name. The point of all this is that a number of times where we read "LORD" in the Old Testament, it is making direct reference to Jesus instead of God the Father. See the following examples: "My eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." (Isaiah 6:5) Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. (John 12:41) "You, O LORD, sit enthroned forever; your renown endures through all generations." (Psalm 102:12) (Hebrews 1:8,) which we have already quoted, assures us that this psalm is speaking of the Son. " 'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.'" (Jeremiah 23:5-6) All of these verses and a number of others show us that our Lord Jesus is, along with His Father, the LORD of the Old Testament, the one who is proclaimed to be the only true God. "All kingdoms on earth may know that you alone, O LORD, are God." (2 Kings 19:19) When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He identified Himself in a unique way: "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14) The Lord Jesus used this same phrase to identify Himself to the Jews in His day: "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!' (John 8:58) While the English grammar may not convey the distinction as clearly as the original languages, it was very clear to the Jews that heard Him that He was identifying Himself with God, the eternal I AM, and because of this supposed blasphemy, they picked up stones to stone Him, just as they did when He proclaimed, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) True believers, however, see that, far from usurping God's name, power, and authority, Jesus, being God in very nature, deserves our honor, worship, and praise just as the Father does. "All may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him." (John 5:23) It mentioning that when we say Jesus is God or that Father and Son are one, we are not saying that Jesus is the Father or that they are only one person. They are one in the sense that they are perfectly united in nature, in spirit, in purpose, in love, in power, and in every other way. The nature of their unity is made clear in Jesus' prayer to His Father before the crucifixion. "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name -- the name you gave me -- so that they may be one as we are one... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (John 17:11, 21-23) Just as God's people can by His Spirit be perfectly united with each other while remaining distinct persons, so it is with the Son and Father: perfectly united in nature, yet readily identifiable as two persons.Philippians 2:5-11 gives a beautiful picture of the work Jesus accomplished while on earth, also showing a great deal of the relationship between Son and Father: "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death -- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Every step that the Lord Jesus took to become a man, and every step He took as a man was a step of willing, humble obedience to His Father's will, since it was likewise His own will. Understanding that He was "in very nature God" helps us to understand how greatly He humbled Himself to become a human being. As if it were not enough to take on human nature with its frailty, Jesus was born into a family of the poorest people; so poor they could not even offer the usual lamb for the purification offering after His birth. After some years of exile in Egypt, he was brought up in Nazareth, a town of dubious reputation. When He was thirty years old, He voluntarily left His home and family, such as they were, and became a homeless vagabond preacher, repeatedly suffering abuse, scorn and disbelief at the hands of those whom He had come to save. At last, after a life of self-denial and sacrifice, he was subjected to the ignominious death of crucifixion. As we contemplate each experience in His life, let us remember, this is not just a man, this is God! A hymn says, "Amazing love! How can it be that Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?" Because of His will to humble Himself so completely for us, He is exalted to the highest place, forever worthy of all our Praise and Worship. "Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27) It is indeed overwhelming to think that this one who is our God, having once taken upon Himself the limitations of human flesh, would choose to do so again and again as He dwells in the believers, yet that is exactly what He does! The scripture gives many pictures of the work He will do as He walks in His people in every generation, including our own. "(God) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions -- it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:5-6) He takes us in all our deadness and gives us divine, eternal life. He gives us access to the fellowship of heaven. "I pray ... that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 1:18-20) He shares with us the same power by which death was conquered forever in the resurrection! "We are heirs -- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ." (Romans 8:17) He makes us joint heirs with Himself, sharing with Him in all the richness of the provision of His eternal kingdom. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world... I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." (John 17:24-26) Jesus shares with us the special love between Him and His Father, making us partakers in the same intimate relationship that they have enjoyed from eternity No mere man, no angel could ever do for us what our Lord Jesus has done. The more we learn of who He is and how great His power is on our behalf, the more we bow in humble adoration and marvel at what He has done and is doing for us! Irvine writing about what he did during the war 1914-1918 while he was in America... After spending a year in car all over the states, I spent a year alone in San Diego in a shack and there I got to see and taste much of the tenderness and love of God and Jesus which I could see was lacking in our interpretation of Jesus as the way, truth and life… Then I went amongst Testimony friends and workers to find the Devil and Satan had swamped them, and it was rather a painful experience but the only way I could have been convinced of their condition. And every bit of evidence that I had these past 21 years is but added proof of the terrible condition of every seed who would open their mouth against the man whom they owed everything under God the Trinity to. (Oct 20, 1935 Letter to Sandy Hinds, Australia) Here are names of different workers sermons teaching the Triune God/Godhead.http://2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/8/word-god-refer-father?page=1[/quote]of none of that do i disagree with, i disagree with the terms trinity and triune God, they are man made terms not made by God or The Lord Jesus they are terms created by man to try to explain how they see God but not understanding that God gives that image of Himself privately to those who love and serve Him [/quote] Oh that's brilliant! That's lifted my heart, I've been so sad! What a wonderful way to explain the heart of Christ Jesus! And his relationship with God! I also see death conquered, in his resurrection in our hearts as Satan is conquered in our hearts when Christ is risen within us. As Christ grows in our hearts Satan is overcome more and more and replaced with the love of God changing us from the old man Adam to a quickened spirit with Christ full of the love of our Heavenly Father! We must decrease and he must increase Thank you for sharing that. I just couldn't keep quiet when I read it! Now back to hibernation!
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Post by fixit on Apr 25, 2015 2:17:40 GMT -5
The New Testament clearly records the many who fell down and worshipped the one now known as "Jesus" who's given name was "Yahu'shuah" which meant, "God/Savior!" Now those then actually Worshipped Him. Scripture everywhere prohibits worshipping anyone but God.
Carson Cowan believed the three were one. Furthermore, from his witness he was taught to understand that fact by George Walker, who used the shamrock as an example for Carson to later use.
So what if you professing guys don't wish to worship "Jesus?" That is your right along with anyone else unwilling to bow down in worship of Him as being God and one with the Father, with whom He is now sitting down with The Father in His Father's throne Read Rev. 3:21 if my memory serves me correctly. How is it possible? For me, quite simple, they are of the same Spirit Being substance. i see nothing wrong with what you write and believe so myself, my issue is the use of man made terms used to try to explain this. isn't it enough to know just as you have said that they are of the same Spirit isn't it enough to believe and understand this as Jesus said John 10:30 I and my Father are one. but also to believe this also and understand 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. and to believe this also and understand 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. without the need to add man made terms to try to explain them? Virgo, that scripture was slipped in there by Trinitarians.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 25, 2015 2:49:45 GMT -5
i see nothing wrong with what you write and believe so myself, my issue is the use of man made terms used to try to explain this. isn't it enough to know just as you have said that they are of the same Spirit isn't it enough to believe and understand this as Jesus said John 10:30 I and my Father are one. but also to believe this also and understand 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. and to believe this also and understand 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. without the need to add man made terms to try to explain them? Virgo, that scripture was slipped in there by Trinitarians. Fixit, -Who & how did they "slip" that into the scripture?
I'm not disputing it, -I am just curious. When was it done?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 3:00:53 GMT -5
i see nothing wrong with what you write and believe so myself, my issue is the use of man made terms used to try to explain this. isn't it enough to know just as you have said that they are of the same Spirit isn't it enough to believe and understand this as Jesus said John 10:30 I and my Father are one. but also to believe this also and understand 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. and to believe this also and understand 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. without the need to add man made terms to try to explain them? Virgo, that scripture was slipped in there by Trinitarians. so you would dispute that these things are true?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 3:01:28 GMT -5
Virgo, that scripture was slipped in there by Trinitarians. Fixit, -Who & how did they "slip" that into the scripture?
I'm not disputing it, -I am just curious. When was it done?
i would be wondering the same
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Post by fixit on Apr 25, 2015 5:34:50 GMT -5
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Post by Greg on Apr 25, 2015 8:19:44 GMT -5
Hard to know what was actually believed and taught and preached about "Jesus is God" by the first workers.
Nothing conveys a belief that "Jesus is God" better than stating "Jesus is God". A person can believe Jesus is divine and still believe Jesus is not God. A person can believe Jesus is one with God and still believe Jesus is not God. A person can believe in the godhead and still believe Jesus is not God.
Along with this, a person who believes Jesus is one with God and is divine and is part of the godhead can jump to the conclusion that another believes Jesus is God (and thus the triune God and the trinity) when that other states that Jesus is one with God and/or divine.
Basically, though, all is a matter of faith and likely takes some disregard or some self-made definitions for various words and wordings in regard to some that is written in the bible,
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 9:47:59 GMT -5
No, for those of us raised listening to them, it is not "hard to know" what they taught and believed. I knew them to preach, teach and believe in the Worship of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and baptize in their name. Plain, simple, clear to know what they believed for those attending meetings in the 40's and 50's.
Agreed, those without those experiences, or without interest and not paying attention, simply would have no way to know.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 25, 2015 9:57:59 GMT -5
Trinitarians like Zorro and others have said "the trinity" cannot be accurately condensed down to "Jesus is God".
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Post by Greg on Apr 25, 2015 11:09:01 GMT -5
No, for those of us raised listening to them, it is not "hard to know" what they taught and believed. I knew them to preach, teach and believe in the Worship of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and baptize in their name. Plain, simple, clear to know what they believed for those attending meetings in the 40's and 50's.
Agreed, those without those experiences, or without interest and not paying attention, simply would have no way to know. My opening sentence was 'Hard to know what was actually believed and taught and preached about "Jesus is God" by the first workers.'
To clarify, I mean specifically and word for word as to the belief "Jesus is God". Did the first workers - those who started in Ireland by 1905 - teach by written word or spoken word in conversation and preaching and convention speaking that "Jesus is God"?
Further, I mean did all of them. Every one.
I did not indicate nor cast any doubt on "Worship of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and baptize in their name".
And as indicated, unless we were present in their speaking and actually heard the words "Jesus is God" or personally read their written words "Jesus is God", we cannot know - probably at least some if not many of us on this board - what those first workers believed, taught and preached, word for word, "Jesus is God".
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2015 13:56:04 GMT -5
The New Testament clearly records the many who fell down and worshipped the one now known as "Jesus" who's given name was "Yahu'shuah" which meant, "God/Savior!" Now those then actually Worshipped Him. Scripture everywhere prohibits worshipping anyone but God.
Carson Cowan believed the three were one. Furthermore, from his witness he was taught to understand that fact by George Walker, who used the shamrock as an example for Carson to later use.
So what if you professing guys don't wish to worship "Jesus?" That is your right along with anyone else unwilling to bow down in worship of Him as being God and one with the Father, with whom He is now sitting down with The Father in His Father's throne Read Rev. 3:21 if my memory serves me correctly. How is it possible? For me, quite simple, they are of the same Spirit Being substance. i see nothing wrong with what you write and believe so myself, my issue is the use of man made terms used to try to explain this. isn't it enough to know just as you have said that they are of the same Spirit isn't it enough to believe and understand this as Jesus said But ALL words are man made, including "Jesus", " God", "Father", and "Spirit". The blue ones are Pagan words.
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