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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 25, 2015 14:33:31 GMT -5
Cheri, Regarding your post: As you know, this sort of thing is not peculiar to the fellowship. Around 350 A.D. the Church convened and excommunicated the Arians for NOT believing in the trinity. At the time, the Church really had no trinitarian formula. The council met and created a 'creed' to explain their doctrine of God. Those who didn't agree were disfellowshipped. I read the book WHEN JESUS BEDCAME GOD also. Very good historical account, and probably pretty accurate. The question really is this: Do the elders and workers have the right to dictate doctrine? I'm assuming you are referring to this book: When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome - Richard E. Rubenstein IMO, it's well-written and worth the read if you have any interest in this subject matter. For me, the take-home lesson is that so much of what we accept as "truth" is very much the product of a flawed humanity. No matter if it is (many centuries later) generally branded "orthodox" or "heretical". In the end, to my mind, the most relevant question is "How's that working for you?" How does it make life better for you when you are brushing your teeth in the morning? How does it help you be more patient and present to your children? How does it help you to be kinder to your dog? How does it help you be more accepting when someone cuts you off in traffic or pushes ahead of you in a checkout lineup? How does it help you enter into the pain of a wounded man uttering a few words at a colleague's funeral service, and refrain using your interpretation of what he said to promote your own ego and your own agenda? And instead send a little prayer for the well-being of all?
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Post by emy on Apr 25, 2015 20:51:46 GMT -5
1) Truitt got half right! Christ is God. 2) The workers got half right! Jesus had a human nature was tempted in ALL point yet without sin. If they put the two together! they get a complete picture of the Christ! The Christ is God, who had both natures within the Son of Man Jesus God and Man. Jesus the Man/was tempted in all points as we are, but the Christ/God nature within couldn't sin because is God. Jesus is Both man/God in ONE body. [/font] [/quote] Yes, Jesus had both natures. If we believe, and God gives the Holy Spirit, so do we. The difference is God's Son was given the Spirit without measure. John 3:31-34 ... The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard... Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
Heb. 2:9-10 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
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Post by fixit on Apr 25, 2015 21:12:02 GMT -5
Truitt’s Doctrine was reported to have been some or all of the following: that Jesus was divine, that Jesus could not be tempted to sin, that Jesus was God.... According to Cherie "Jesus is God" was NOT part of Truitt's doctrine. Please please please do not hijack this thread to discuss the trinity. If you do not honor my request, I will request that your posts be removed. These men were NOT expelled from the work for believing the trinity concept and they do/did not believe Jesus is God. They believed that it was impossible for Jesus to sin.
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Post by fixit on Apr 25, 2015 21:22:33 GMT -5
How does it help you enter into the pain of a wounded man uttering a few words at a colleague's funeral service, and refrain using your interpretation of what he said to promote your own ego and your own agenda? And instead send a little prayer for the well-being of all? Thank you for these powerful words Sharon. That is who Jesus really is.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 25, 2015 21:42:59 GMT -5
Your fellowship was dead for nearly 2,000 years. So why bother trying to copy something from 2,000 years ago. Maybe they are trying to do it as Jesus planned. Martin Luther didn't deliver the plan.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 0:35:54 GMT -5
Your fellowship was dead for nearly 2,000 years. So why bother trying to copy something from 2,000 years ago. Maybe they are trying to do it as Jesus planned. Martin Luther didn't deliver the plan. because he didn't have the plan, God has
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 26, 2015 6:57:12 GMT -5
Cheri, Regarding your post: As you know, this sort of thing is not peculiar to the fellowship. Around 350 A.D. the Church convened and excommunicated the Arians for NOT believing in the trinity. At the time, the Church really had no trinitarian formula. The council met and created a 'creed' to explain their doctrine of God. Those who didn't agree were disfellowshipped. I read the book WHEN JESUS BECAME GOD also. Very good historical account, and probably pretty accurate. The question really is this: Do the elders and workers have the right to dictate doctrine? Nate - have you read the above referenced book? Your responses indicate you haven't... Link edited to: www.amazon.com/When-Jesus-Became-God-Christianity/dp/0156013150/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430089719&sr=1-1&keywords=when+jesus+became+god
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 12:26:33 GMT -5
,When I was with Exie Montgomery and Marge Holesapple (sp?) on an extended trip into Mexico we all visited about this subject some refer to as the personality of Christ. According to my recollection she (Exie) was in entire agreement with what Mable Gibson believed on the subject. That was our Spirit God existed from the very beginning of records about "Him" as a singular substance with a plural existence as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Since I had accepted that instruction from MG as a child, and had no reason to question EM, I continued to accept and enjoy our conversation as being according to scripture, and this was a couple of years before I even offered my life to be a "worker." Now I am continually surprised at who all either was not listening or interested to what such as they had to say. Surely, "que sera, sera!"
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 26, 2015 17:24:32 GMT -5
It took me awhile, but I finally figured out what list you are talking about...I think this is what happened. I provided the link to the book mistyirishmount mentioned by Rubenstein. You looked further down the list below the book at the top of the link...and found another out of print book titled: Jesus: When God Became a Man (Bible Study Guide) Oct. 1997 by Charles R. Swindoll and you looked up Swindoll's church and copied some info from their website. Do I have this right? Am I missing something? I fail to see how the mission statement of Swindoll's church is relevant to the subject of this thread... BTW, there are some exes who attend Swindoll's church - its on the north side of Dallas, Texas USA. Click Here to read their story. The other ex2x2 hasnt written her story.
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Post by Mary on Apr 26, 2015 17:26:46 GMT -5
I just went down the list of books you gave looking for someone who has a website and I found a link to that one.
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Post by Gene on Apr 26, 2015 17:39:36 GMT -5
(copied from another thread -- more fitting here)
I did not hear John teach that Jesus was God, and I don't recall ever discussing the doctrine of the Trinity with him. I wish now we had!
The account Cherie wrote is 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge.
As she writes, here is what I heard John teach:
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 26, 2015 18:11:35 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 6:13:05 GMT -5
One cannot read the bible without some understanding of the 'trinity'; or that Jesus is God and was man here on earth. An interesting discussion with an apostolic minister showed the extreme belief in the trinity: that Jesus is the very same as God the Father. Their explanation about when Stephen looked into an open heaven and saw Jesus standing at God (the Father's) right hand was this: that was his empty body standing there waiting for him to step back into to come back to earth. They believe that Jesus was God (the Father) and LEFT HEAVEN to come to earth as Jesus. They also believe that EVERY prayer on record was a sample prayer (including his prayer in the Garden). Today, I believe it is quite understood within the 2x2s that Jesus is God, and the Son of God, and the three (Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and God the Father) are all 'part of the Godhead'. I wonder how they would explain the words of Jesus on the cross - "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" - Clearly he wasn't talking to himself. It wouldn't be correct to say that "it is quite understood within the 2x2s that Jesus is God" - not all you read on this forum is "quite understood within the 2x2s". I've been going to meetings all my life, and I have never heard a friend or worker claim that Jesus is God, nor do I believe it myself - I believe he is the son of God. And please, there's no need for anyone to respond to this post with another trinity debate - it's all been said already, and it hasn't changed what I believe.
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Post by mdm on Apr 28, 2015 10:31:11 GMT -5
Cherie, I was going to PM you about this, but since Julio has brought it up, I'll say it here. I have heard from 3 different sources about reports of Bob Ingram's inappropriate behavior. Apparently, he was demoted due to charges of this nature.
Also, a worker once told us about a conversation a group of workers had with John Starkweather during a car ride, and how he surprised them by expressing his belief that they didn't quite understand, but it was something to the effect that Jesus wasn't afraid of or affected by physical suffering on the cross because he was so spiritual that his mind was set only on spiritual things. The workers ended up conveying this to their overseer, asking him for his opinion and explanation, and the overseer told them that John had been warned in the past not to preach this belief. This lead to John being removed from the work. The worker who related these things to us said that John was a very spiritual and humble man. However, the fact that he was not in agreement with the overseer was proof to this worker that John must have allowed pride to lead him in a different direction.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 28, 2015 10:43:54 GMT -5
I have heard from 3 different sources about reports of Bob Ingram's inappropriate behavior. Apparently, he was demoted due to charges of this nature. That behavior was included in the phrase used by the workers in their letters re Bob: "taking liberties." From the Account: When Tharold was up in years, “a rumor had been passed around that Robert would be having responsibility over Washington,” which would mean that in addition to Alaska, Bob would be Overseer of the work in Washington and Northern Idaho. Some sister workers were opposed to Bob being in authority over them.
Bob Ingram was also a subject of the meeting/s held in October, 1989, in Seattle Washington. According to a sister worker, she was the only sister worker who had been violated by Robert Ingram to be present at this meeting with Bob and the 8 men in administrative positions who dealt with the allegations. REASONS WHY ROBERT INGRAM HAS BEEN ASKED TO STEP ASIDE FROM THE MINISTRY: 1. Out of consideration for the preservation of integrity and unity in the Ministry. 2. Moral misconduct involving a number of young sister Workers primarily while responsible as overseer of Alaska.3. Failing to consult senior Workers to have this matter resolved. 4. Justifying both Truitt Oyler and himself among Saints and Workers following the Seattle meeting of October, 1989. 5. Additional information obtained since the meeting in Seattle, October, 1989. 6. Failing to counteract Truitt Oyler's doctrine which was taught in Alaska. In writing this account, I was in contact with one of the major sister workers involved. I supplied her with all the rumors I had received about the situation. She was horrified they were so far from what really took place. So I chose not to mention them in the Account. One rumor was that there were 13 sister workers at the meetings and Claudia Toppin was their spokesperson. They said we will not have this man to rule over us, etc. Didn't happen per CT.
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Post by mdm on Apr 28, 2015 11:12:16 GMT -5
I have heard from 3 different sources about reports of Bob Ingram's inappropriate behavior. Apparently, he was demoted due to charges of this nature. I have not heard about any CSA accusations, but I am not surprised. That behavior was included in the phrase used by the workers in their letters re Bob: "taking liberties." From the Account: When Tharold was up in years, “a rumor had been passed around that Robert would be having responsibility over Washington,” which would mean that in addition to Alaska, Bob would be Overseer of the work in Washington and Northern Idaho. Some sister workers were opposed to Bob being in authority over them.
Bob Ingram was also a subject of the meeting/s held in October, 1989, in Seattle Washington. According to a sister worker, she was the only sister worker who had been violated by Robert Ingram to be present at this meeting with Bob and the 8 men in administrative positions who dealt with the allegations. REASONS WHY ROBERT INGRAM HAS BEEN ASKED TO STEP ASIDE FROM THE MINISTRY: 1. Out of consideration for the preservation of integrity and unity in the Ministry. 2. Moral misconduct involving a number of young sister Workers primarily while responsible as overseer of Alaska.3. Failing to consult senior Workers to have this matter resolved. 4. Justifying both Truitt Oyler and himself among Saints and Workers following the Seattle meeting of October, 1989. 5. Additional information obtained since the meeting in Seattle, October, 1989. 6. Failing to counteract Truitt Oyler's doctrine which was taught in Alaska. In writing this account, I was in contact with one of the major sister workers involved. I supplied her with all the rumors I had received about the situation. She was horrified they were so far from what really took place. So I chose not to mention them in the Account. One rumor was that there were 13 sister workers at the meetings and Claudia Toppin was their spokesperson. They said we will not have this man to rule over us, etc. Didn't happen per CT. Thanks Cherie! I had not yet read the rest of the chapter on TTT... I'm impressed with work that went into writing it all!
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Post by Gene on Apr 28, 2015 18:04:25 GMT -5
Cherie, I was going to PM you about this, but since Julio has brought it up, I'll say it here. I have heard from 3 different sources about reports of Bob Ingram's inappropriate behavior. Apparently, he was demoted due to charges of this nature. I have not heard about any CSA accusations. Also, a worker once told us about a conversation a group of workers had with John Starkweather during a car ride, and how he surprised them by expressing his belief that they didn't quite understand, but it was something to the effect that Jesus wasn't afraid of or affected by physical suffering on the cross because he was so spiritual that his mind was set only on spiritual things. The workers ended up conveying this to their overseer, asking him for his opinion and explanation, and the overseer told them that John had been warned in the past not to preach this belief. This lead to John being removed from the work. The worker who related these things to us said that John was a very spiritual and humble man. However, the fact that he was not in agreement with the overseer was proof to this worker that John must have allowed pride to lead him in a different direction. I was probably in the same car -- or in an identical conversation in a different car. They missed the point; the point being that what Jesus feared and agonized over about the cross was the (temporary) separation from God - the very definition of hell -- that he experienced on behalf of sinners. The theology states that the penalty for sin (separation from God; i.e. hell) had to be paid. Jesus paid it on behalf of sinners. He could do so because he, himself, was sinless. Hence, the physical pain and agony of the cross paled for him in comparison to the (temporary) separation from God.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 21:37:09 GMT -5
Having been Truitt's companion, there was never the least indication to me that he would behave in any improper sexual manner, and I would be remiss not to defend him on this issue, without anything more than vague rumored activity. He, Walter, and John were, in my estimation fine self disciplined men. Please do not include them in those specifically well known accusations against another.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 28, 2015 22:35:44 GMT -5
IF what you wrote is true of these men, makes one wonder why the workers aren't consistently placing the same terms in the rest of America on others guilty of same offense...and why one of the men reduced to status of a saint/friend and allowed to attend meetings all his life and the other was not...
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Post by fixit on Apr 28, 2015 22:37:55 GMT -5
I wonder how they would explain the words of Jesus on the cross - "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" - Clearly he wasn't talking to himself. It wouldn't be correct to say that "it is quite understood within the 2x2s that Jesus is God" - not all you read on this forum is "quite understood within the 2x2s". I've been going to meetings all my life, and I have never heard a friend or worker claim that Jesus is God, nor do I believe it myself - I believe he is the son of God. And please, there's no need for anyone to respond to this post with another trinity debate - it's all been said already, and it hasn't changed what I believe. Felicity - I will respond with Hebrews 1:8. Very easy for Jesus to refer to His Father as God, because the Father is wholly God. The same as it was for Thomas to refer to Jesus as my Lord and God - Jesus also is wholly God. We do not fully understand it with the limitations of our human minds. If there were only one or two references in the Bible to the triune character of God it might be easy to dismiss but there are hundreds. There are only hundreds of them because you are looking for them to validate the theory you've been taught. I'll stick with the terminology used in the Bible. Nowhere does it use "God the Son", "God the Holy Spirit", "Triune God", "Trinity", etc. The early workers were absolutely right to drop all that confusion and stick with what the Bible actually says.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 3:40:49 GMT -5
IF what you wrote is true of these men, makes one wonder why the workers aren't consistently placing the same terms in the rest of America on others guilty of same offense...and why one of the men reduced to status of a saint/friend and allowed to attend meetings all his life and the other was not... Yet another way of looking at this quote from our Lord is that having been fully God and fully man, that which was God in him departed for that time, leaving Him to suffer alone, thus truly tasting death for us all. I'm very thankful that was not the end of the story there on the cross that day. Oops, I am sorry, thought I was quoting Ross' response to this point. Too tired to try to fix it.
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Post by fixit on Apr 29, 2015 5:59:41 GMT -5
There are only hundreds of them because you are looking for them to validate the theory you've been taught. I'll stick with the terminology used in the Bible. Nowhere does it use "God the Son", "God the Holy Spirit", "Triune God", "Trinity", etc. The early workers were absolutely right to drop all that confusion and stick with what the Bible actually says. You are not alone - I don't know any Christian who doesn't use the most common terms used in the Bible - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are clearly three separate persons. However, common terminology doesn't mean that Christ is not God, Yahweh, the First and the Last, Lord and a host of other references/names for the Godhead - you have to invalidate hundreds of verses and prophecies to discount that. I have to correct your assertion - the hundreds of references didn't make sense to me long before I read any material about the Trinity or triune nature of God. I certainly wasn't taught anything about the Trinity in meetings although as I've written before I heard a senior Canadian worker talk about the truth of the Trinity about the same time as I understood what the Bible was saying. Like a lot of friends I thought the Trinity was just a Catholic doctrine so when I heard it from a senior worker I decided to go and do some research. I found the teaching to be mainstream and orthodox Christian teaching which surprised me at the time. I came to understand who God is from the pages of the Bible. The early church fathers didn't have anything else other than word of mouth (they knew the early Christians worshipped Jesus) and the various books/letters that the Apostles had written. And they could line up the OT with the NT. The main writers in the NT referred to the Son of God as God on numerous occasions. Of course, since coming to this understanding you keep discovering references to it - last Sunday in church another one came up - Isaiah 35 v 4, 5 etc - a powerful image of God coming to save us and the miracles Christ performed while on earth. I assume from what you've written that you believe that only the Father is God? Can I assume from this that you don't worship Jesus? Do you think Jesus would have a problem with me worshipping only his father? The true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. The Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
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Post by fixit on Apr 29, 2015 15:07:59 GMT -5
Do you think Jesus would have a problem with me worshipping only his father? The true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. The Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Yes, it is VERY true the Son shall be subjected unto the Father at the end but that doesn't DO away! with the Son Part of the Godhead or His Divinity/Deity with the Father before He became a man/God.Are you suggesting that the Son Part of the Godhead is subjected to God the Father? Your Trinity is starting to wobble Nathan.
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Post by fixit on Apr 29, 2015 16:00:16 GMT -5
Nathan, does the Son's "begottenness" only apply to his humanity?
Or was he God the Father's son before being born of Mary?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 29, 2015 21:51:03 GMT -5
All One can do is just sit by & look on with absolute amazement!
If there were ever any reason to wonder why there are thousands of different CHRISTIAN denominations through out the world, -all one has to do is look at all this dialogue! Three pages in just 44 days and still going strong!
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julio
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Post by julio on Apr 30, 2015 9:35:35 GMT -5
I feel that 'moral misconduct' and 'taking liberties' is rather 'pussy-footin'. Why not use the same terminology those who made statements, and at the hearing in Oregon was stated clearly: rape and seducing. Also, there is literature about how those in power are doubly responsible even in situations of seduction because of their power role.
Just reading today John 17: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Jesus own words - he does not use the word divine or trinity or God, but how could he NOT be part of the Godhead?
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