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Post by mdm on Apr 14, 2015 12:10:19 GMT -5
We must bear in mind that there is a school of thought which suggests that we are already all saved by grace and don't really have much more to do; they maintain that it is not by works but by grace less we should boast. Yes I know they do and people have to believe what they want to, but I don't like to be so sure if myself! It's just the way I believe, I believe we have to endure to the end. And it's Gods works in the heart that saves us from Satan here and now because he shows us our sin and gives us a choice to choose. As for the works, James said, Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. I'll show my faith by God's works in my heart. If I let him in. And my hope is for all to get into heaven! We've got until the last breath in our bodies. Like the thief on the cross It seems to me that it's grace that enables us to approach God and that reconciles us with God, but then we are still drawn and urged to grow in His likeness. So, if we feed the poor and clothe the naked because we believe it will get us into heaven, we are trying to be saved by works. But if we do those things out of love and compassion, then we are growing into His likeness. The bottom line is, if we are doing things out of fear, we don't know God's love yet. When we know God's love, we will not fear any more, but will not stop showing our faith through works either, because faith and love are guiding us.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 14, 2015 12:25:30 GMT -5
Partaker it also says, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. I think it is a place of extreme peace and love. Like when you're heart melts. But it's like that always. But, we've got to get there first! We don't know who is going to heaven, if we get there, we might have a shock! And people who call others unsaved might see them sitting there I don't like people being called unsaved. I prefer saying there's hope for everyone. I don't know if in getting there myself yet! Oh, Mary, of course you are getting there! If the thief on the cross got there, of course you will too We can "get" there already in this life and can have assurance now. But I agree that it's not our job to decide who will be there who won't. God wants all to be there, because He loves all. And the nature and power of His love is not something we can completely comprehend yet. Ha ha maja I'm not so sure, but if I do it will be great and I hope to see everyone here there too!
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Post by placid-void on Apr 16, 2015 21:03:08 GMT -5
I am very much enjoying the discussion of the theme established in the OP.
The aspiration for fulfillment as an individual at the same time that I strive for compassionate fellowship with my neighbor has been, perhaps, one of the paramount challenges of my life. I enjoy and seek the wisdom of others who pursue the quest to understand the purpose and meaning of life (both spiritual and non-spiritual). I am an advocate for the belief that much wisdom has been garnered from the experiences of individuals throughout human history. Like SharonArnold, I have long admired the insights of Joseph Campbell.
But I also believe that the wisdom of the ancients, as captured in texts like the Bible, provide touchstones for reflection. Regretfully, I must approach the Bible as an outsider, as one who seeks rather than one who believes. I read the Bible as great literature rather than the sole source of salvation.
It is interesting to have confirmed on this thread that we all begin at different starting points. Alan says “I have craved community all my life”, Jesse says “I have always felt alone”, SharonArnold says “I tend to have issues with “community”” and I my own inclination has always been to look toward being part of something larger than self (the F&W Fellowship, the Academic community, a corporate community, a volunteer organization).
Since reading through this thread, I have begun to question if the Bible actually councils in favor of the individual or the community of faithful. I am not a biblical scholar, I cannot quote verses. I am biased and would tend to remember admonitions to the individual more readily than guidance to the “church”. My sense, however, is that a critical and objective reading of biblical passages might lead one to conclude that the bible concerns itself with both. Not by way of contradiction. Nor as a paradox. Rather, might the biblical teaching not inform a path of personal individual responsibility within the larger context of responsibility toward a community in which one is only a small part?
Might fulfillment flow from the capacity to embrace both the responsibilities of self and community independent of our personal inclination to favor one nature in preference to the other?
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 21:18:39 GMT -5
Yknot Your last sentence strikes a cord. If my aim is to love others as much as I love myself. Aiming at that alone takes patience perseverance, understanding. Love is the driving force. Along the way I might have to deal with frustration,impatience but if I am trusting for the result to be perfected I will have the strength to endure. Taking it beyond the human level into my surroundings my love for nature and all the provision our planet the earth animals birds and fauna. If I respect it and try to improve it then am I doing enough?
I just heard an aboringinal woman say 'this land is our body'..we need to look after it. 'It is our palace we call home.' Interesting. When we think of our body returning to the dust.
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Post by emy on Apr 16, 2015 21:32:21 GMT -5
<snip> Since reading through this thread, I have begun to question if the Bible actually councils in favor of the individual or the community of faithful. I am not a biblical scholar, I cannot quote verses. I am biased and would tend to remember admonitions to the individual more readily than guidance to the “church”. My sense, however, is that a critical and objective reading of biblical passages might lead one to conclude that the bible concerns itself with both. Not by way of contradiction. Nor as a paradox. Rather, might the biblical teaching not inform a path of personal individual responsibility within the larger context of responsibility toward a community in which one is only a small part? Might fulfillment flow from the capacity to embrace both the responsibilities of self and community independent of our personal inclination to favor one nature in preference to the other? I think you have caught the intention of Scripture very well.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 17, 2015 1:20:53 GMT -5
I am very much enjoying the discussion of the theme established in the OP. The aspiration for fulfillment as an individual at the same time that I strive for compassionate fellowship with my neighbor has been, perhaps, one of the paramount challenges of my life. I enjoy and seek the wisdom of others who pursue the quest to understand the purpose and meaning of life (both spiritual and non-spiritual). I am an advocate for the belief that much wisdom has been garnered from the experiences of individuals throughout human history. Like SharonArnold, I have long admired the insights of Joseph Campbell. But I also believe that the wisdom of the ancients, as captured in texts like the Bible, provide touchstones for reflection. Regretfully, I must approach the Bible as an outsider, as one who seeks rather than one who believes. I read the Bible as great literature rather than the sole source of salvation. It is interesting to have confirmed on this thread that we all begin at different starting points. Alan says “I have craved community all my life”, Jesse says “I have always felt alone”, SharonArnold says “I tend to have issues with “community”” and I my own inclination has always been to look toward being part of something larger than self (the F&W Fellowship, the Academic community, a corporate community, a volunteer organization). Since reading through this thread, I have begun to question if the Bible actually councils in favor of the individual or the community of faithful. I am not a biblical scholar, I cannot quote verses. I am biased and would tend to remember admonitions to the individual more readily than guidance to the “church”. My sense, however, is that a critical and objective reading of biblical passages might lead one to conclude that the bible concerns itself with both. Not by way of contradiction. Nor as a paradox. Rather, might the biblical teaching not inform a path of personal individual responsibility within the larger context of responsibility toward a community in which one is only a small part? Might fulfillment flow from the capacity to embrace both the responsibilities of self and community independent of our personal inclination to favor one nature in preference to the other? yknot, your post brings to mind a term that has grown to be a favorite of mine in the past couple of years: dialectic. It is much more than simply a conversation, or a citation of contradictions or paradoxes. I am still attempting to grasp the full meaning of this word, but maybe I can quote a few lines here from "lay-theologian" and sociologist Jacques Ellul on dialectic, which forms his entire manner of approaching society and its confrontation by the scriptures: To bring this to the discussion in this thread, rather than seeing the scriptures as "teaching us" either individuality or community, I see a story of God working with persons to individualize them and then form community. But these necessarily challenge all of our notions of individuality and community - we tend to speak of "being individualistic," when talking about something that is more accurately defined as "independence." Being called to be an individual before God has to do with the shattering of all props, securities, comforts . . . And likewise, we speak of community about something that tends to be more "mob thinking," or "the public." The scriptures define a very specific manner of interacting in community, best comprehended in "love thy neighbor as thyself." Does this not tell us we had also better judge how we "love ourselves"? Jesus removed all boundaries on who "the neighbor" might be in the "parable of the good Samaritan, so, as Kierkegaard shows in detail in Works of Love, this "neighbor" includes everyone - our spouse, parents, children, friend, acquaintance, person on the street, and enemy! People cannot be called as a community - the "follow me" was always to specific persons to become disciples, and Jesus then taught to love and serve one another - a manner of community!
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Post by placid-void on Apr 17, 2015 6:17:26 GMT -5
Yknot Your last sentence strikes a cord. If my aim is to love others as much as I love myself. Aiming at that alone takes patience perseverance, understanding. Love is the driving force. Along the way I might have to deal with frustration,impatience but if I am trusting for the result to be perfected I will have the strength to endure. Taking it beyond the human level into my surroundings my love for nature and all the provision our planet the earth animals birds and fauna. If I respect it and try to improve it then am I doing enough? I just heard an aboringinal woman say 'this land is our body'..we need to look after it. 'It is our palace we call home.' Interesting. When we think of our body returning to the dust. Bubbles, I like the way you think! You ask, "If I respect it and try to improve it then am I doing enough?", and of course that question is well beyond my pay-grade to answer but I would certainly suggest your headed in a good direction.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 17, 2015 7:35:54 GMT -5
Yknot Your last sentence strikes a cord. If my aim is to love others as much as I love myself. Aiming at that alone takes patience perseverance, understanding. Love is the driving force. Along the way I might have to deal with frustration,impatience but if I am trusting for the result to be perfected I will have the strength to endure. Taking it beyond the human level into my surroundings my love for nature and all the provision our planet the earth animals birds and fauna. If I respect it and try to improve it then am I doing enough? I just heard an aboringinal woman say 'this land is our body'..we need to look after it. 'It is our palace we call home.' Interesting. When we think of our body returning to the dust. Bubbles, I like the way you think! You ask, "If I respect it and try to improve it then am I doing enough?", and of course that question is well beyond my pay-grade to answer but I would certainly suggest your headed in a good direction. Yknot I saw this house on tv tonight it was built for sustainability. Garden on roof. Water conservation. Solar on roof. The rock from the block was used in the walls and a constant temp of 17c inside summer and winter.
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Post by placid-void on Apr 17, 2015 7:42:47 GMT -5
yknot, your post brings to mind a term that has grown to be a favorite of mine in the past couple of years: dialectic. It is much more than simply a conversation, or a citation of contradictions or paradoxes. I am still attempting to grasp the full meaning of this word, but maybe I can quote a few lines here from "lay-theologian" and sociologist Jacques Ellul on dialectic, which forms his entire manner of approaching society and its confrontation by the scriptures: To bring this to the discussion in this thread, rather than seeing the scriptures as "teaching us" either individuality or community, I see a story of God working with persons to individualize them and then form community. But these necessarily challenge all of our notions of individuality and community - we tend to speak of "being individualistic," when talking about something that is more accurately defined as "independence." Being called to be an individual before God has to do with the shattering of all props, securities, comforts . . . And likewise, we speak of community about something that tends to be more "mob thinking," or "the public." The scriptures define a very specific manner of interacting in community, best comprehended in "love thy neighbor as thyself." Does this not tell us we had also better judge how we "love ourselves"? Jesus removed all boundaries on who "the neighbor" might be in the "parable of the good Samaritan, so, as Kierkegaard shows in detail in Works of Love, this "neighbor" includes everyone - our spouse, parents, children, friend, acquaintance, person on the street, and enemy! People cannot be called as a community - the "follow me" was always to specific persons to become disciples, and Jesus then taught to love and serve one another - a manner of community! Whoa, Alan, you dove into the deep end of the pool! I shant even pretend that I grasp the subtle nuances of "dialectic" but from the explanations you provide above, it does appear to capture the essence of what I was reaching for. I am pretty sure I have told this story before here on TMB but I can't remember when or in what context. It is the story of a comment a friend made to me many years ago when I was struggling with trying to figure out who I was or who I wanted to be. The friend said to me, "You have to realize that you are both the center of the universe AND that you are no more than a single grain of sand on the beach of life AND then hold both of these realizations in your mind simultaneously. When you are able to do that you will begin to find your own identity."
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 19, 2015 23:00:37 GMT -5
Love your neighbor as yourself implies some sort of love or respect of one's self. If we respect ourselves there is as much we won't do as we will. There has to be solid substance in one's self before one can make a meaningful contribution to a community. It's interesting that some of what becomes the substance of one's self is drawn from the community.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 20, 2015 14:26:12 GMT -5
Love your neighbor as yourself implies some sort of love or respect of one's self. If we respect ourselves there is as much we won't do as we will. There has to be solid substance in one's self before one can make a meaningful contribution to a community. It's interesting that some of what becomes the substance of one's self is drawn from the community. Yes! The command brings the question as to how we love ourselves as well as how we love our neighbor - and who is my neighbor?
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 20, 2015 14:55:41 GMT -5
Love your neighbor as yourself implies some sort of love or respect of one's self. If we respect ourselves there is as much we won't do as we will. There has to be solid substance in one's self before one can make a meaningful contribution to a community. It's interesting that some of what becomes the substance of one's self is drawn from the community. Yes! The command brings the question as to how we love ourselves as well as how we love our neighbor - and who is my neighbor? I think this picture, posted by xna on another thread, goes a long way to answering that question:
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 20, 2015 15:22:25 GMT -5
Love your neighbor as yourself implies some sort of love or respect of one's self. If we respect ourselves there is as much we won't do as we will. There has to be solid substance in one's self before one can make a meaningful contribution to a community. It's interesting that some of what becomes the substance of one's self is drawn from the community. Yes! The command brings the question as to how we love ourselves as well as how we love our neighbor - and who is my neighbor? Like you already said, the parable of the good Samaritan answers that: Whoever is closest to you at at any given moment. Have you noticed how many people seem to be more interested in finding and beating up whoever they think the assailant is instead?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 20, 2015 17:05:49 GMT -5
Yes! The command brings the question as to how we love ourselves as well as how we love our neighbor - and who is my neighbor? Like you already said, the parable of the good Samaritan answers that: Whoever is closest to you at at any given moment. Have you noticed how many people seem to be more interested in finding and beating up whoever they think the assailant is instead? Exactly! And yes, I have noticed this, in myself as well as in society and community around me . . .
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 20, 2015 21:00:42 GMT -5
Like you already said, the parable of the good Samaritan answers that: Whoever is closest to you at at any given moment. Have you noticed how many people seem to be more interested in finding and beating up whoever they think the assailant is instead? Exactly! And yes, I have noticed this, in myself as well as in society and community around me . . . But I would add that "love for one's neighbor" can mean going, in an appropriate time and manner, to the perpetrator and/or victim in any situation to address it - "If thy brother offend thee, go to him . . ."
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 20, 2015 21:29:03 GMT -5
Exactly! And yes, I have noticed this, in myself as well as in society and community around me . . . But I would add that "love for one's neighbor" can mean going, in an appropriate time and manner, to the perpetrator and/or victim in any situation to address it - "If thy brother offend thee, go to him . . ." Ah, indeed!
My letter received no answer. Knowing the recipient of the letter as well as I did, I had anticipated there would be no answer.
Admittedly, -I hadn't had the courage to even write the letter until many years later.
So, one could say that it was not the "appropriate time and manner."
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