|
Post by withlove on Apr 13, 2015 0:51:45 GMT -5
Alan -- you've put words to my own experience ... as we've discussed before. I don't know that coming to understand one's own such experience really can mean the same thing to anyone else. It seems that what you learn from such an experience is more personal simply because it can be offensive to so many people who are so curious to know the "why". It's not "concrete" enough to pass around. Agreed! But I like to "pass it around" anyway in the hopes that others might find some commonality, perhaps open some ideas and discussion . . . if they aren't "convinced," well I wasn't attempting to "convince" anyone of anything! This is related to my reasons for not posting often . . . Yes, like Bob says, you express things that is tough for most of us to find words for! Commonality, ideas and discussion and non-argumentative arguments---yes, please post as often as you can! That's my goal, too, when I'm not forgetting it. Thank you for speaking so clearly yet with a softness and generally a good influence.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Apr 13, 2015 0:58:30 GMT -5
This doesn't answer why Alan Vandermyden was shunned. People don't shun for nothing. I wasn't shunned.
It was that no one, workers nor friends, would speak up for me against what a sister worker was trying to make me do, - go with my husband, take our two young sons, leave my own house & move into my father-in-law's house so she could go back into the work.
The fact that we were offering to to take my father-in-law into our own house, -even that my husband was partitioning of a room for him, -wasn't an option with her.
When I would try to defend my position I was just met with silence. When this happens, when people just look at you & say nothing, it can only make you feel that you are the one doing wrong.
As Alan stated, I also cried, I raged, I begged for someone to just listen. Silence. ( except for one dear lady whom I never forgot for her understanding)
It was a terrible time for me & for my children as well. When a mother is so distraught it is bound to affect her children as well.
What a sad situation. How did the worker get so much more power than the man's own son? It's kind of surprising that a sister worker would be caring for a man alone...that seems like something the f&w would disapprove of. Really sad that you had to suffer that kind of intrusive judgement from people on a family matter you were handling with such generosity.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 13, 2015 1:11:09 GMT -5
This doesn't answer why Alan Vandermyden was shunned. People don't shun for nothing. I wasn't shunned.
It was that no one, workers nor friends, would speak up for me against what a sister worker was trying to make me do, - go with my husband, take our two young sons, leave my own house & move into my father-in-law's house so she could go back into the work.
The fact that we were offering to to take my father-in-law into our own house, -even that my husband was partitioning of a room for him, -wasn't an option with her.
When I would try to defend my position I was just met with silence. When this happens, when people just look at you & say nothing, it can only make you feel that you are the one doing wrong.
As Alan stated, I also cried, I raged, I begged for someone to just listen. Silence. ( except for one dear lady whom I never forgot for her understanding)
It was a terrible time for me & for my children as well. When a mother is so distraught it is bound to affect her children as well.
Dmich That would have been traumatic The thing is workers should not meddle in family decisions. Your home belongs to you and your first priority was your family. I know how it felt for no one to speak up. Not workers the one in the family nor parents on either side. When my then hubby left for shunning. I sympathise with you. Im sure you became a stronger person for standing your ground.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2015 1:37:25 GMT -5
I wasn't shunned.
It was that no one, workers nor friends, would speak up for me against what a sister worker was trying to make me do, - go with my husband, take our two young sons, leave my own house & move into my father-in-law's house so she could go back into the work.
The fact that we were offering to to take my father-in-law into our own house, -even that my husband was partitioning of a room for him, -wasn't an option with her.
When I would try to defend my position I was just met with silence. When this happens, when people just look at you & say nothing, it can only make you feel that you are the one doing wrong.
As Alan stated, I also cried, I raged, I begged for someone to just listen. Silence. ( except for one dear lady whom I never forgot for her understanding)
It was a terrible time for me & for my children as well. When a mother is so distraught it is bound to affect her children as well.
What a sad situation. How did the worker get so much more power than the man's own son? It's kind of surprising that a sister worker would be caring for a man alone...that seems like something the f&w would disapprove of. Really sad that you had to suffer that kind of intrusive judgement from people on a family matter you were handling with such generosity. Th Sorry, I get carried away & forget the details that I automatically know which others don't know.
The sister worker was my sister-in-law, the older sister of my husband and daughter of my father-in-law. She had been in the work before but had been at home caring for her mother. After her mother died she wanted to go back into the work. (quite reasonably)
We already had my own mother at our house but we were going to also make room for my father-in-law.
Some how, she didn't think that was good enough, who knows why? There was never was any sitting down together & finding a solution.
A sycophant sister worker told me the plan & made it sound like a great big happy family! According to her, we would live in the big house and my mother would live in a small house my husband had built on his parents property.
I doubt she even considered that not only was it not the best for us as a family but also not very considerate of my mother who was very hard of hearing and would have been afraid of living alone.
You can imagine the guilt trip that they laid on me. All those souls would be "lost," because she couldn't go back into the work? -all due to my being "selfish."
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2015 1:43:20 GMT -5
Alan -- you've put words to my own experience ... as we've discussed before. I don't know that coming to understand one's own such experience really can mean the same thing to anyone else. It seems that what you learn from such an experience is more personal simply because it can be offensive to so many people who are so curious to know the "why". It's not "concrete" enough to pass around. Agreed! But I like to "pass it around" anyway in the hopes that others might find some commonality, perhaps open some ideas and discussion . . . if they aren't "convinced," well I wasn't attempting to "convince" anyone of anything! This is related to my reasons for not posting often . . . And you're right. Being willing to share is really the only way to find those who've had a common experience. And just knowing that you're not so unique that it never happens to anyone else is tremendous confirmation that you're not simply insane, as many would think. I've often felt that one aspect of such shunning, especially when there's no apparent reason for it, is that you're provided with some "aloneness" that you can't manage to find in the continuous meeting and social expectations of all the friends and workers. By that I mean that the time needed to study and meditate without interruption is somehow easier to find. But on the other hand, it never seems to be something you can share in meeting, no matter how meaningful it is to you.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Apr 13, 2015 1:45:57 GMT -5
The sister worker was my sister-in-law, the older sister of my husband and daughter of my father-in-law. She had been in the work before but had been at home caring for her mother. After her mother died she wanted to go back into the work. (quite reasonably)
We already had my own mother at our house but we were going to also make room for my father-in-law.
Some how, she didn't think that was good enough, who knows why? There was never was any sitting down together & finding a solution.
A sycophant sister worker told me the plan & made it sound like a great big happy family! According to her, we would live in the big house and my mother would live in a small house my husband had built on his parents property.
I doubt she even considered that not only was it not the best for us as a family but also not very considerate of my mother who was very hard of hearing and would have been afraid of living alone.
You can imagine the guilt trip that they laid on me. All those souls would be "lost," because she couldn't go back into the work? -all due to my being "selfish." Can't even grasp how you would be the selfish one in this picture. *hug*
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2015 1:52:19 GMT -5
What a sad situation. How did the worker get so much more power than the man's own son? It's kind of surprising that a sister worker would be caring for a man alone...that seems like something the f&w would disapprove of. Really sad that you had to suffer that kind of intrusive judgement from people on a family matter you were handling with such generosity. Th Sorry, I get carried away & forget the details that I automatically know which others don't know.
The sister worker was my sister-in-law, the older sister of my husband and daughter of my father-in-law. She had been in the work before but had been at home caring for her mother. After her mother died she wanted to go back into the work. (quite reasonably)
We already had my own mother at our house but we were going to also make room for my father-in-law.
Some how, she didn't think that was good enough, who knows why? There was never was any sitting down together & finding a solution.
A sycophant sister worker told me the plan & made it sound like a great big happy family! According to her, we would live in the big house and my mother would live in a small house my husband had built on his parents property.
I doubt she even considered that not only was it not the best for us as a family but also not very considerate of my mother who was very hard of hearing and would have been afraid of living alone.
You can imagine the guilt trip that they laid on me. All those souls would be "lost," because she couldn't go back into the work? -all due to my being "selfish." Ah... I know the kind. We trusted my brother and his wife with caring for my aging mother in a 2-bedroom apartment attached to our family home. As soon as my sister in law moved into the main house, she had my brother sell it and offered my Mom the garage of her new house to live in -- in the woods alone except when they came home to sleep and have meeting Sunday morning and Wednesday night. Very short version of a long long story. My mother never accepted the plan.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Apr 13, 2015 2:00:59 GMT -5
All those souls would be "lost," because she couldn't go back into the work? -all due to my being "selfish." That's a pretty harsh god who condemns souls to hell who otherwise would have made heaven if someone would only preach to them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 2:15:54 GMT -5
This doesn't answer why Alan Vandermyden was shunned. People don't shun for nothing. Yes, Bert, --People do shun other people for nothing -nothing that the person has done wrong! It is a sophomoric behavior, -like a juvenile, immature, adolescent behavior that kids may do to others, -and often for the same reasons. So people just wake up one morning and say, "So what are we going to do today? I know! LET'S SHUN SOMEONE!!!!"
ps when I read this, "A sycophant sister worker" I just knew I wasn't going to get a balanced, nuanced, thoughtful, fair or honest account.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2015 2:21:22 GMT -5
You can imagine the guilt trip that they laid on me. All those souls would be "lost," because she couldn't go back into the work? -all due to my being "selfish." [/b][/font][/quote] Wow - she much be one hellova hot preacher at that rate. Have I met that women a couple of times in Chicago and Colorado?
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2015 2:23:38 GMT -5
Yes, Bert, --People do shun other people for nothing -nothing that the person has done wrong! It is a sophomoric behavior, -like a juvenile, immature, adolescent behavior that kids may do to others, -and often for the same reasons. So people just wake up one morning and say, "So what are we going to do today? I know! LET'S SHUN SOMEONE!!!!"
ps when I read this, "A sycophant sister worker" I just knew I wasn't going to get a balanced, nuanced, thoughtful, fair or honest account.
Have you never met a sycophant worker, Bert?
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 13, 2015 2:26:15 GMT -5
Yes, like Bob says, you express things that is tough for most of us to find words for! Commonality, ideas and discussion and non-argumentative arguments---yes, please post as often as you can! That's my goal, too, when I'm not forgetting it. Thank you for speaking so clearly yet with a softness and generally a good influence. I have to check myself too! I seldom post my "knee-jerk" reactions, whether they be negative or positive, as I find that by waiting, I can often find a different way to "get inside" a topic, considering where the other person may be coming from . . .
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Apr 13, 2015 2:31:04 GMT -5
I've often felt that one aspect of such shunning, especially when there's no apparent reason for it, is that you're provided with some "aloneness" that you can't manage to find in the continuous meeting and social expectations of all the friends and workers. By that I mean that the time needed to study and meditate without interruption is somehow easier to find. But on the other hand, it never seems to be something you can share in meeting, no matter how meaningful it is to you. Funny how that works!
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 13, 2015 4:04:59 GMT -5
Yes, Bert, --People do shun other people for nothing -nothing that the person has done wrong! It is a sophomoric behavior, -like a juvenile, immature, adolescent behavior that kids may do to others, -and often for the same reasons. So people just wake up one morning and say, "So what are we going to do today? I know! LET'S SHUN SOMEONE!!!!" You're on the wrong thread Bert, it should be on the humour thread. I got a belly laugh out of it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 4:37:48 GMT -5
That's a pretty harsh god who condemns souls to hell who otherwise would have made heaven if someone would only preach to them. The question has often entered my mind, what happens to all the people who have never heard the gospel preached by the F&W's, are they condemned to a lost eternity? There must be millions of people in the world who have never even heard about this fellowship, let alone heard them preach. Then another thought enters my mind, God thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways etc. etc..-- nor is His actions.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 4:53:10 GMT -5
So people just wake up one morning and say, "So what are we going to do today? I know! LET'S SHUN SOMEONE!!!!" You're on the wrong thread Bert, it should be on the humour thread. I got a belly laugh out of it. The only thing about that is that what may be fun and laughter to some, can also bring heartbreak and tears to the eyes of others, :(pathetic, isn't it?
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 13, 2015 12:20:23 GMT -5
Alan do you think anyone else, say for instance me, going though the same situation would come to the same conclusions? In other words do you think reactions and conclusions will be the same no matter who the person is? Not necessarily, Jesse. This is my own experience, and I emphatically try to avoid generalizing. As I sought to stress in my post, I see it as God "individualizing" persons, and that is precisely what I mean - neither we nor God can be part of a "generalized concept." And I am not asking anyone to understand things as I do. I am "tossing my own experience out there," only in the hope that it may stimulate or open thought in some way . . . and perhaps further conversation. The interesting thing is I have always felt alone. You said to Sharon; "I have craved community all my life, but have found so little." I'm the opposite. I enjoy various "communities" - a lot - but never crave or even expect their acceptance or benevolence. Even in various "communities" - including ones that like and respect me a lot - I have nearly always felt I was an individual, and alone. I don't know exactly when I had an “individuation” experience, I would say before I can remember because it seems I've always been that way. That is why I asked the questions, different people will react differently to the same situation, they will analyze it differently, and will come to different conclusions. I think you understand, which is why you aren't presenting your experience as if it's "cut and dried" and universal.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Apr 13, 2015 23:21:17 GMT -5
As a kid who couldn't speak any English in a grade 1 Canadian classroom, I well remember being punished several times for "nothing" just because I couldn't explain myself. Not a good analogy. You weren't shunned or punished "for nothing". I expect you were shunned or punished because you were different. Was that your fault? Of course not. BTW, I have great respect for what you've achieved in English literacy. I suspect your treatment in 1st grade helped to give you the determination to excel in English literacy? One memory is being punished by a teacher for not saying "Excuse me" as I walked in front of her. I had no idea what I had done wrong, and barely knew any English at the time. I only surmised quite a long time later that this was the reason I was being reprimanded. At age 6 you don't think of adults as being wrong or right; they just are. There were other situations where I endured a beating from older kids because I couldn't answer their questions. The result of the situations that both I and my extended family encountered is a strong empathy for immigrants and new Canadians. As far as English literacy, my Dutch is quite pathetic at this point, but thinking in two languages helps in developing abstract thinking skills, I believe. Early on I developed a passion for reading and for books, and by the middle of grade two they moved me into the middle of grade three. 18 months before I could speak no English at all. Grade 3 presented another set of new challenges. It's been all downhill coasting every since.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2015 0:07:56 GMT -5
Yes, Bert, --People do shun other people for nothing -nothing that the person has done wrong! It is a sophomoric behavior, -like a juvenile, immature, adolescent behavior that kids may do to others, -and often for the same reasons. So people just wake up one morning and say, "So what are we going to do today? I know! LET'S SHUN SOMEONE!!!!"
ps when I read this, "A sycophant sister worker" I just knew I wasn't going to get a balanced, nuanced, thoughtful, fair or honest account.
Well of course, Bert! I chose that word 'sycophant' very carefully. I knew when I did so that it would give you & others like you, Bert, -an excuse to dismiss my story as not being an honest account. See, I didn't want you to have to hang out there unable to refute my story!
See, I really do care about you Bert! And I do hope the god you profess knowing never sends you a "sycophant sister (or brother) worker" to tell you what to do with your personal life, -the personal part of your life that isn't on "spiritual" level.
You don't understand that there are workers who are 'sycophants,' or " brown nosers," - in a more urban slang; -workers who favor their peers & overseers to gain status, -who will butter-up whom ever they believe to be more "powerful ."
You are either naive or in denial. It's ok, -believe what-ever you want. Whatever keeps you comfortable.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 14, 2015 1:00:11 GMT -5
What a sad situation. How did the worker get so much more power than the man's own son? It's kind of surprising that a sister worker would be caring for a man alone...that seems like something the f&w would disapprove of. Really sad that you had to suffer that kind of intrusive judgement from people on a family matter you were handling with such generosity. Th Sorry, I get carried away & forget the details that I automatically know which others don't know.
The sister worker was my sister-in-law, the older sister of my husband and daughter of my father-in-law. She had been in the work before but had been at home caring for her mother. After her mother died she wanted to go back into the work. (quite reasonably)
We already had my own mother at our house but we were going to also make room for my father-in-law.
Some how, she didn't think that was good enough, who knows why? There was never was any sitting down together & finding a solution.
A sycophant sister worker told me the plan & made it sound like a great big happy family! According to her, we would live in the big house and my mother would live in a small house my husband had built on his parents property.
I doubt she even considered that not only was it not the best for us as a family but also not very considerate of my mother who was very hard of hearing and would have been afraid of living alone.
You can imagine the guilt trip that they laid on me. All those souls would be "lost," because she couldn't go back into the work? -all due to my being "selfish." You were not the selfish one.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Apr 14, 2015 1:07:50 GMT -5
That's a pretty harsh god who condemns souls to hell who otherwise would have made heaven if someone would only preach to them. The question has often entered my mind, what happens to all the people who have never heard the gospel preached by the F&W's, are they condemned to a lost eternity? There must be millions of people in the world who have never even heard about this fellowship, let alone heard them preach. Then another thought enters my mind, God thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways etc. etc..-- nor is His actions. The question that entered my mind is one of the strongest things spoken of by workers is the exclusive way they suggest no other group is entering heaven except the friends. It is such a stronghold over peoples minds. Im begining to question is this the way they control people? Is that too harsh? I know the body of christ is far larger than 'the friends'. It is untrue to state'we are the only way.'
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 4:18:41 GMT -5
The question has often entered my mind, what happens to all the people who have never heard the gospel preached by the F&W's, are they condemned to a lost eternity? There must be millions of people in the world who have never even heard about this fellowship, let alone heard them preach. Then another thought enters my mind, God thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways etc. etc..-- nor is His actions. The question that entered my mind is one of the strongest things spoken of by workers is the exclusive way they suggest no other group is entering heaven except the friends. It is such a stronghold over peoples minds. Im begining to question is this the way they control people? Is that too harsh? I know the body of christ is far larger than 'the friends'. It is untrue to state'we are the only way.' Well suffice it to say I never ever make such a claim, I don't know that, only God knows that. They are other religious organisations like the JHW's who also make that claim. I recall a group at my door telling me that they are very glad that people are building these lovely houses on earth because in the next life they will inherit them on the new earth; until I reminded them about what is written in scriptures that in the end not one stone will be left unturned, everything will be distroyed.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 14, 2015 5:46:44 GMT -5
The question that entered my mind is one of the strongest things spoken of by workers is the exclusive way they suggest no other group is entering heaven except the friends. It is such a stronghold over peoples minds. Im begining to question is this the way they control people? Is that too harsh? I know the body of christ is far larger than 'the friends'. It is untrue to state'we are the only way.' Well suffice it to say I never ever make such a claim, I don't know that, only God knows that. They are other religious organisations like the JHW's who also make that claim. I recall a group at my door telling me that they are very glad that people are building these lovely houses on earth because in the next life they will inherit them on the new earth; until I reminded them about what is written in scriptures that in the end not one stone will be left unturned, everything will be distroyed. Partaker it also says, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. I think it is a place of extreme peace and love. Like when you're heart melts. But it's like that always. But, we've got to get there first! We don't know who is going to heaven, if we get there, we might have a shock! And people who call others unsaved might see them sitting there I don't like people being called unsaved. I prefer saying there's hope for everyone. I don't know if in getting there myself yet!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 7:50:26 GMT -5
Well suffice it to say I never ever make such a claim, I don't know that, only God knows that. They are other religious organisations like the JHW's who also make that claim. I recall a group at my door telling me that they are very glad that people are building these lovely houses on earth because in the next life they will inherit them on the new earth; until I reminded them about what is written in scriptures that in the end not one stone will be left unturned, everything will be distroyed. Partaker it also says, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. I think it is a place of extreme peace and love. Like when you're heart melts. But it's like that always. But, we've got to get there first! We don't know who is going to heaven, if we get there, we might have a shock! And people who call others unsaved might see them sitting there I don't like people being called unsaved. I prefer saying there's hope for everyone. I don't know if in getting there myself yet! We must bear in mind that there is a school of thought which suggests that we are already all saved by grace and don't really have much more to do; they maintain that it is not by works but by grace less we should boast.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Apr 14, 2015 8:32:08 GMT -5
Partaker it also says, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. I think it is a place of extreme peace and love. Like when you're heart melts. But it's like that always. But, we've got to get there first! We don't know who is going to heaven, if we get there, we might have a shock! And people who call others unsaved might see them sitting there I don't like people being called unsaved. I prefer saying there's hope for everyone. I don't know if in getting there myself yet! We must bear in mind that there is a school of thought which suggests that we are already all saved by grace and don't really have much more to do; they maintain that it is not by works but by grace less we should boast. Yes I know they do and people have to believe what they want to, but I don't like to be so sure of myself! It's just the way I believe, I believe we have to endure to the end. And it's Gods works in the heart that saves us from Satan here and now because he shows us our sin and gives us a choice to choose. As for the works, James said, Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. I'll show my faith by God's works in my heart. If I let him in. And my hope is for all to get into heaven! We've got until the last breath in our bodies. Like the thief on the cross
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Apr 14, 2015 8:39:11 GMT -5
To be fair, I was really just commenting on dmmichgood's post about all the souls being lost because the sister worker couldn't go preach again.
It seems like the f&w are less adamant on that topic lately. Even if they believe they are the only right way, some believe that individual souls can be saved by God without Him sending a worker to them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 8:42:22 GMT -5
Alan, Thank you for sharing your experience. It helps me to not to feel so alone, when I read that others have shared the same feelings and experiences.
The hardest part of feeling like my world was turned up side down was, that no one I had ever share pervious experiences with before, were there any more. I was cut off from all support outside of my husband and sons. My husband and I delt with it in very different ways. I need to talk things out. He did not want to discuss any of it and still doesn't for the most part. He is still very hurt by what happened.
If it had not been for support of people on this board, and a very good "wordly" therapist, I do not know where I would be today.
,
|
|
|
Post by mdm on Apr 14, 2015 11:54:50 GMT -5
Well suffice it to say I never ever make such a claim, I don't know that, only God knows that. They are other religious organisations like the JHW's who also make that claim. I recall a group at my door telling me that they are very glad that people are building these lovely houses on earth because in the next life they will inherit them on the new earth; until I reminded them about what is written in scriptures that in the end not one stone will be left unturned, everything will be distroyed. Partaker it also says, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. I think it is a place of extreme peace and love. Like when you're heart melts. But it's like that always. But, we've got to get there first! We don't know who is going to heaven, if we get there, we might have a shock! And people who call others unsaved might see them sitting there I don't like people being called unsaved. I prefer saying there's hope for everyone. I don't know if in getting there myself yet! Oh, Mary, of course you are getting there! If the thief on the cross got there, of course you will too We can "get" there already in this life and can have assurance now. But I agree that it's not our job to decide who will be there who won't. God wants all to be there, because He loves all. And the nature and power of His love is not something we can completely comprehend yet.
|
|