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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 10, 2015 22:54:30 GMT -5
Just watched the video of "Going Clear" about the Church of Scientology. As time goes by, I can see more and more clearly the parallels in human nature and human control that exist between the 2x2s and Scientology. And Catholicism. And Islam.
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logain
Junior Member
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Post by logain on Apr 10, 2015 23:06:59 GMT -5
Is there a religion that exists that does not have some "rules" about sexual relationships?
It stands to reason that if an organization can control the most basic of human instincts (the compelling urge to reproduce) then controlling all other facets of peoples lives will be relatively easy.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 10, 2015 23:17:41 GMT -5
Is there a religion that exists that does not have some "rules" about sexual relationships? It stands to reason that if an organization can control the most basic of human instincts (the compelling urge to reproduce) then controlling all other facets of peoples lives will be relatively easy. I am speaking more to the fact of how the religions control people: 1) blind faith 2) don't question esteemed leader 3) if you see abuse- you are wrong- you didn't REALLY see abuse 4) do as we say, not as we do 5) if you leave us- you will have a bad eternity 6) we are the ONLY right way 7) don't associate with enemies. An enemy is anyone who doesn't believe as we do. 8) we alone have the words of life. etc. It makes one feel pretty stupid when one looks back and sees just how blind that they were as a mindless drone.
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Post by withlove on Apr 10, 2015 23:58:43 GMT -5
"I thought Scientology was a cult while I was in the Moonies, 'course Scientologists thought the Moonies were a cult, and we all thought the Children of God were a cult; but the parallel is the brain-washing/mind control paradigm of controlling people's behavior, information, thinking and emotions, the installation of phobias, the control of information, the alienation from people's own ability to critically think." --Steve Hassan in recent interview.
Trying to find a list of similarities I came up with a while back too...
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Post by withlove on Apr 11, 2015 0:03:58 GMT -5
Just watched the video of "Going Clear" about the Church of Scientology. As time goes by, I can see more and more clearly the parallels in human nature and human control that exist between the 2x2s and Scientology. And Catholicism. And Islam. Where did you find it--or did you have it recorded from when it aired? Thanks!
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Post by withlove on Apr 11, 2015 0:13:25 GMT -5
thought-stopping brainwashing non-transparency of doctrine, money, power structure, history, etc. attempts to "protect" members and would-be members from information about problems/crimes false origin story covering up of abuses vilifying of victims excommunication repercussions for questioning secretive hierarchy undue influence
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 11, 2015 1:21:11 GMT -5
Is there a religion that exists that does not have some "rules" about sexual relationships? It stands to reason that if an organization can control the most basic of human instincts (the compelling urge to reproduce) then controlling all other facets of peoples lives will be relatively easy. Actually, yes. In Western Paganism, unless it is one's own personal principle (which they aren't justified on requiring of anyone else), there is no prohibition on anything, not just sexual behavior, that conforms to their equivalent of the Golden Rule.
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Post by Mary on Apr 11, 2015 3:56:17 GMT -5
Just watched the video of "Going Clear" about the Church of Scientology. As time goes by, I can see more and more clearly the parallels in human nature and human control that exist between the 2x2s and Scientology. And Catholicism. And Islam. Now here is someone who has not posted for 9 months. Great to see you back. They were talking about those we have not seen on here for a while. Where ya been?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2015 5:53:48 GMT -5
Is there a religion that exists that does not have some "rules" about sexual relationships? It stands to reason that if an organization can control the most basic of human instincts (the compelling urge to reproduce) then controlling all other facets of peoples lives will be relatively easy. I am speaking more to the fact of how the religions control people: 1) blind faith 2) don't question esteemed leader 3) if you see abuse- you are wrong- you didn't REALLY see abuse 4) do as we say, not as we do 5) if you leave us- you will have a bad eternity 6) we are the ONLY right way 7) don't associate with enemies. An enemy is anyone who doesn't believe as we do. 8) we alone have the words of life. etc. It makes one feel pretty stupid when one looks back and sees just how blind that they were as a mindless drone. I've been reading about police issues in America, and the same exists within the police. And within some countries, political parties and businesses. Belief and knowledge embed power relationships in all social systems. That isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself, but your list can be seen as the far end of a continuum of how power works in a social organisation. The common thread in the very worst ones is "everyone who doesn't believe as we do is the enemy". That's because the survival of the organisation's individuals and their power depends on the core beliefs of the group, on their ideology. Interfere with that and people feel threatened.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2015 8:03:05 GMT -5
Just watched the video of "Going Clear" about the Church of Scientology. As time goes by, I can see more and more clearly the parallels in human nature and human control that exist between the 2x2s and Scientology. And Catholicism. And Islam. What about the JHW's, and the Closed Brethren? I have been studying them as well for a long time now; some very interesting features in common. This involves: Mind control, demands for Willing obedience and total Submission to perceived authority. Any challenges are not tolerated because they are seen as attempts to "upset the apple carts."
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2015 8:24:35 GMT -5
Just watched the video of "Going Clear" about the Church of Scientology. As time goes by, I can see more and more clearly the parallels in human nature and human control that exist between the 2x2s and Scientology. And Catholicism. And Islam. What about the JHW's, and the Closed Brethren? I have been studying them as well for a long time now; some very interesting features in common. This involves: Mind control, Willing obedience and total Submission to perceived authority. Any challenges are not tolerated because they are seen as attempts to "upset the apple carts." I'm not fond of terms like "mind control" or "total Submission" because I don't think it works like that. Most members of groups like Scientology, the friends or JWs buy in willingly to the group's beliefs. The techniques involved in creating the buy in do not require "mind control". They do require a level of submission, but not "total Submission". Generally, all religions also embed truths and ideals that are noble and pure, and they are not purely evil. The independent thinker will want to tease out the more problematic aspects from the good stuff. I'm curious about what you found in the 'Closed Brethren' (is that the same as 'Exclusive Brethren') that was problematic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2015 9:09:25 GMT -5
What about the JHW's, and the Closed Brethren? I have been studying them as well for a long time now; some very interesting features in common. This involves: Mind control, Willing obedience and total Submission to perceived authority. Any challenges are not tolerated because they are seen as attempts to "upset the apple carts." I'm not fond of terms like "mind control" or "total Submission" because I don't think it works like that. Most members of groups like Scientology, the friends or JWs buy in willingly to the group's beliefs. The techniques involved in creating the buy in do not require "mind control". They do require a level of submission, but not "total Submission". Generally, all religions also embed truths and ideals that are noble and pure, and they are not purely evil. The independent thinker will want to tease out the more problematic aspects from the good stuff. I'm curious about what you found in the 'Closed Brethren' (is that the same as 'Exclusive Brethren') that was problematic. Yes, I believe that "generally" most religions have ideals that are noble, but that also acknowledges the possibility that some do have ideals that are less than noble. I suspect that the Closed Brethren and the Exclusive Brethren may have the same following, just called by different names by geographical locations. What I find to be problematic is the way they relate to non members even within their own families. Just because you are not a member of the religion does not mean that you are unclean and should be kept at a distance/isolated. I have fairly close members of the family in that religion and they are allowed to associate with us to a limited extent. They would not dine with us at the same table, they would not take a photo with us as a family group and simple little things like that. It is as thought they treat non members as unclean. I believe that Christians should be united in Christ and what God has cleansed, no one should call common or unclean. No one should be that exclusive in the business of serving God. Jesus was also accused for eating with Publican and sinners, but He justified it and He is our example.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 11, 2015 9:19:22 GMT -5
Just watched the video of "Going Clear" about the Church of Scientology. As time goes by, I can see more and more clearly the parallels in human nature and human control that exist between the 2x2s and Scientology. And Catholicism. And Islam. Where did you find it--or did you have it recorded from when it aired? Thanks! It is a documentary on HBO. I had read the book a few years ago that the documentary is based on.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 11, 2015 9:31:54 GMT -5
I'm not fond of terms like "mind control" or "total Submission" because I don't think it works like that. Most members of groups like Scientology, the friends or JWs buy in willingly to the group's beliefs. The techniques involved in creating the buy in do not require "mind control". They do require a level of submission, but not "total Submission". Generally, all religions also embed truths and ideals that are noble and pure, and they are not purely evil. The independent thinker will want to tease out the more problematic aspects from the good stuff. I'm curious about what you found in the 'Closed Brethren' (is that the same as 'Exclusive Brethren') that was problematic. Yes, I believe that "generally" most religions have ideals that are noble, but that also acknowledges the possibility that some do have ideals that are less than noble. I suspect that the Closed Brethren and the Exclusive Brethren may have the same following, just called by different names by geographical locations. What I find to be problematic is the way they relate to non members even within their own families. Just because you are not a member of the religion does not mean that you are unclean and should be kept at a distance/isolated. I have fairly close members of the family in that religion and they are allowed to associate with us to a limited extent. They would not dine with us at the same table, they would not take a photo with us as a family group and simple little things like that. It is as thought they treat non members as unclean. I believe that Christians should be united in Christ and what God has cleansed, no one should call common or unclean. No one should be that exclusive in the business of serving God. Jesus was also accused for eating with Publican and sinners, but He justified it and He is our example. That's quite terrible. I think as true followers of the words of Jesus we have to always resist inhumane tendencies and ask why we are doing what we are doing. That includes everything from dropping bombs and killing people in other countries to the simple things we do in our own backyard. Since we have left the friends' group we run into an awful lot of people who are Christians but want nothing to do with any denomination whatsoever. While by and large they have not encountered the kind of shunning you describe, they have ecountered the same tendencies of exclusion and judgement within organized church settings. I'm not saying that it's the same in all organised churches ... definitely there are churches that thrive .. inhumane doctrine seems to be a great vulnerability in all organized religion.
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2015 15:50:21 GMT -5
Actually, any religion that states that women should be submissive to men quite clearly can't be a religion that is anything other than man made. It is rather obvious who that particular religion benefits and it isn't women or God. Just men.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 11, 2015 17:08:14 GMT -5
Not really disagreeing, snow, but I'm not convinced that "men" truly benefit from religion that requires "women" to be in subjection to them, as in controlling them. I think both are the losers. Alvin
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Post by withlove on Apr 11, 2015 19:08:57 GMT -5
Where did you find it--or did you have it recorded from when it aired? Thanks! It is a documentary on HBO. I had read the book a few years ago that the documentary is based on. Yeah, me too. Sadly I missed the March 29 air date. Saturday Night Live has a great bit from last week about it.
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Post by xna on Apr 11, 2015 19:22:55 GMT -5
It is a documentary on HBO. I had read the book a few years ago that the documentary is based on. Yeah, me too. Sadly I missed the March 29 air date. Saturday Night Live has a great bit from last week about it. CNN talk on the HBO piece youtu.be/MAzDR-lqCEk
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2015 23:39:53 GMT -5
Not really disagreeing, snow, but I'm not convinced that "men" truly benefit from religion that requires "women" to be in subjection to them, as in controlling them. I think both are the losers. Alvin No, I would say you're right about that. Trouble is a lot of them think they do benefit. They just haven't figured it out yet.
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