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Post by maryhig on Apr 19, 2015 0:49:23 GMT -5
When I professed this was my understanding of the blasphemer... If a non believer shows lack of reverence or denies the Christian God, he commits blasphemy. Once that bell has been rung - it cannot be Un-rung. All hope for salvation ends for that person. The blasphemer is damned to suffer in hell for all eternity, without hope of escape. This was the greatest fear weapon to stay a believer, and to persuade the nonbelievers from thinking or saying; I don’t believe in the Christian God. In the OT the act of blasphemy was - game over. The blasphemer was to be put to death. Leviticus 24;16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.”In the NT it’s not game over, as we read 1 Timothy 1:12-13 “I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief”What are the real world consequences today of this kind of thinking? The religious are killing each other, and non believers because all because the other guy doesn’t believe in their god. This condition seems to be getting worse, especially between Muslims, and Christians. There is a real and present danger of nuclear war over religious blasphemy if Iran, or Saudi Arabia gets nukes. Acting on the belief in blasphemy is dangerous for the world. www.countercurrents.org/hashmi110415.htmwww.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2014/11/pakistan-couple-killed-blasphemy-suspicion-201411422510874131.htmlI find when christians engage in a discussion with a nonbeliever (by definition the non-believer is a blasphemer, as they show a lack of reverence for God) the believer will show the blasphemy card as the strongest and last defense when their faith is questioned. So what is the strongest and last defense of the non believer to the believer? I think it would be something like.... Time to grow up, gods are myth and imaginations. There is but one life so enjoy it. Anyone who says they love God and shows hatred towards another person doesn't love or even know God! Also anyone who blasphemes is wrong, but I believe when it's in ignorance it is forgiven. The Bible doesn't say for God so loved his own, it says for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, so if God loves the world, his people must love all others in the world too! Did you read anywhere about Jesus stoning people to death? Or did he do the opposite and teach people that stoning was wrong? He showed love and compassion, and God sent him to show us how to live. I can talk to you about God at anytime, and if you don't agree so be it. That's your choice. But some people should think what they say about God and his people also. As that's our faith and our beliefs. To turn round and tell me or others like me that we need to grow up, and that our God is a myth and in our imagination, just shows a lack of respect for our faith! Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean he isn't real. You just don't believe, I do. Also just because I believe in God, doesn't mean I don't enjoy my life, I live my life, with the love of God in my heart, and his love has melted my heart for others! And I care more now that I ever did for my fellow man. Also, I'm a different person to what I used to be. And going out drinking or whenever else people feel is enjoyment in the world, is not for me anymore! I enjoy everyday, and thank God every day for the blessings he's given me. I never look at what I haven't got. I look at what I have got! And I have a wonderful life in God, and a wonderful father. No matter what I go through in this world! And nobody can take that away from me, because I know he's real!
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 19, 2015 1:14:14 GMT -5
Gosh D. Really? Who would have thought it. Im the opposite. Great one on one. Still a bit uncomfortable in a crowded room. I like small group conversations....especially with people I know. Big parties and crowded rooms can be draining. I am married to a strong extrovert, but given the right combination of circumstances (usually interesting people and topics), I can actually out-talk him and out socialize him. He finds this hugely funny, particularly with me being fairly introverted. I like people, particularly small groups of trusted friends. I can connect with pretty much anyone one on one. Where I can get impatient and even extremely uncomfortable at times is in larger groups of people where exchanges often become superficial. I tend to have a "why bother?" attitude and sometimes I simply don't.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 19, 2015 9:00:02 GMT -5
.....Reminds me of being in a large group "formal" Christmas supper, and the conversation was superficial and "tense ". It got a little more "real" when the York shire pudding was served, and one of the people there, who also probably felt. "Why bother", put his fork into the y pudding, and burst out, " hmmmmmmmmm, straight from the NHL." Alvin
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Post by snow on Apr 19, 2015 10:39:28 GMT -5
Absolutely. Religious beliefs, my god is right your's is wrong, is getting more and more dangerous for our world. The situation between Christians and Muslims does not look good for the rest of us because the two of them hold such hatred for each other. That certainly could end up in nuclear war especially if you add Israel into the equation because they do have nuclear weapons. The very topic of this thread is another way religious beliefs are dangerous. Saying mental illness is demon possession is not just offensive it is highly dangerous for those in the care of people who believe these things. The things that are going on in the States right now has the potential to be very dangerous to certain groups also. When I read your last paragraph I thought it was unfair to group people together. Not all christians are full of hatred for muslims nor muslims to christians. I would guess the radicals are the minority. I havent googled to find out. What are you referring to? ....things that are going on in the states? Some of the states are bringing in Religious Freedoms laws. They say to protect all religions etc. But in reality it is so Christians have the right to refuse service to groups they feel violate their religious beliefs. At the moment it is gays that are being targeted. Indiana is an example. They just brought the law in. The governor was interviewed and he swore that no one would be affected especially not gays. The bill wasn't even a day on the books and there was a restaurant that immediately let it be known they would not serve gays if they ordered pizza for their wedding. Not sure if it was serving gays all the time or just if they married. But many of the States are bringing in this bill that some have had for some time. Gays are the target, somewhat like blacks used to be, and still are in some cases. Hobby Lobby a large craft store in the States has been given the right to determine their employees health care. They didn't want to pay for their birth control pills and they got that right. Not all their employees are Catholic but that doesn't matter. Heard one politician talking about it and he said that corporations should be allowed to not hire atheists. He gave the example that 'do you want pilots flying your planes if they don't believe in hell'? So yes radicals are growing, getting into places of power and pushing that. You say that radicals are the minority. They are the most verbose and growing in number at least in the States at the moment. The Republican Party are more than ready to combine Christian church and state. Some of the ones that are deciding to run for next president are spouting this rhetoric. That would be a real set back for the States if it happens and detrimental to the world around them. I hope there are still a majority in the States that don't want State and Church combined, but it's looking more and more like the radicals are growing and radicals are dangerous to the rest of humanity. I would agree with you that there is no such thing as a typical Christian. Which is interesting seeing as you all are supposed to be believing the same thing. But I'm glad there are rational Christians and maybe it would be in their interest to rein in their radicals. Something like Christians would like to see the rational Muslims rein in their radicals.
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Post by xna on Apr 19, 2015 10:43:19 GMT -5
When I professed this was my understanding of the blasphemer... If a non believer shows lack of reverence or denies the Christian God, he commits blasphemy. Once that bell has been rung - it cannot be Un-rung. All hope for salvation ends for that person. The blasphemer is damned to suffer in hell for all eternity, without hope of escape. This was the greatest fear weapon to stay a believer, and to persuade the nonbelievers from thinking or saying; I don’t believe in the Christian God. In the OT the act of blasphemy was - game over. The blasphemer was to be put to death. Leviticus 24;16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.”In the NT it’s not game over, as we read 1 Timothy 1:12-13 “I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief”What are the real world consequences today of this kind of thinking? The religious are killing each other, and non believers because all because the other guy doesn’t believe in their god. This condition seems to be getting worse, especially between Muslims, and Christians. There is a real and present danger of nuclear war over religious blasphemy if Iran, or Saudi Arabia gets nukes. Acting on the belief in blasphemy is dangerous for the world. www.countercurrents.org/hashmi110415.htmwww.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2014/11/pakistan-couple-killed-blasphemy-suspicion-201411422510874131.htmlI find when christians engage in a discussion with a nonbeliever (by definition the non-believer is a blasphemer, as they show a lack of reverence for God) the believer will show the blasphemy card as the strongest and last defense when their faith is questioned. So what is the strongest and last defense of the non believer to the believer? I think it would be something like.... Time to grow up, gods are myth and imaginations. There is but one life so enjoy it. Anyone who says they love God and shows hatred towards another person doesn't love or even know God! Also anyone who blasphemes is wrong, but I believe when it's in ignorance it is forgiven. The Bible doesn't say for God so loved his own, it says for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, so if God loves the world, his people must love all others in the world too! Did you read anywhere about Jesus stoning people to death? Or did he do the opposite and teach people that stoning was wrong? He showed love and compassion, and God sent him to show us how to live. I can talk to you about God at anytime, and if you don't agree so be it. That's your choice. But some people should think what they say about God and his people also. As that's our faith and our beliefs. To turn round and tell me or others like me that we need to grow up, and that our God is a myth and in our imagination, just shows a lack of respect for our faith! Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean he isn't real. You just don't believe, I do. Also just because I believe in God, doesn't mean I don't enjoy my life, I live my life, with the love of God in my heart, and his love has melted my heart for others! And I care more now that I ever did for my fellow man. Also, I'm a different person to what I used to be. And going out drinking or whenever else people feel is enjoyment in the world, is not for me anymore! I enjoy everyday, and thank God every day for the blessings he's given me. I never look at what I haven't got. I look at what I have got! And I have a wonderful life in God, and a wonderful father. No matter what I go through in this world! And nobody can take that away from me, because I know he's real! The point I was trying to make was, when a person of Abrahamic faith brings up the blasphemy card, it becomes the nuclear option in the conversation, as there is nowhere to go from there. The same is true for the nonbeliever when they tell the believer their god is just in their imagination, and they are deluded. Blasphemy is a problem of monotheistic religions.
The threat of committing blasphemy is not the problem for the nonbeliever. But the problem is when people ACT on the idea, and do god’s work by killing the blasphemer.
The one who warns another to not commit blasphemy does so to please god. So too the one those who kills the blasphemer, does so to please god.
The same is true of demons. People warn others that demons are real. When people believe this, and act it can lead to harm; i.e. withholding medicine, or worse witch burning. Some people get the idea their kids are possessed by demons, and a few kill them so they can go to heaven before the devil gets them. These are the acts of harm coming from religion that I speak against.
Your beliefs inform your actions. If you state your beliefs in a public forum then your ideas are open to examination, and criticism.
It’s what people do in the name of their god that I have a problem with, not what they say. I agree with Voltaire on free speech; “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.”
The problem with letting Jesus off the hook in the OT to stone to death the blasphemers is, you also believe 1) Jesus is part of the Trinity or 2) Jesus was with god before the earth was made. Either way he supported killing those who don’t acknowledge he exists. Also, why change the rules about blasphemy between the OT and NT? While the NT does not say stone people to death, it does worse, by sending them to an eternal hell, not a one day killing. Again, I have no problem with anyone believing anything, as long as those beliefs do not harm or enable harm.
The crime of blasphemy is a based on what you believe. I have learned I do not choose my beliefs, rather it is more like I am convinced by a preponderance of evidence to believe something is true.
Try this; write something you DO NOT believe in on a piece of paper, then for say an hour or so try as hard as you can to force yourself to believe it’s true, then look at the piece of paper and see if you were able to change your beliefs by choosing.
When I professed I thought if I really and truly believed something then it, had to be true. The more I believed something was true, the truer it was. The mistake I made was, even though it was true for me, that did not make it objectively true, nor was it automatically true for others. It was hard for me to understand how something so true to me was not believed by others. The key is to have evidence which support your belief, so you can show someone how you know something to be true.
There was a distinction between happiness, and truth made by George Bernard Shaw; “The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." For some people, just to be happy is good enough. For me, knowing what is objectively true makes me the most happy. This is a lifelong journey.
If you do a current news search for “killed demon possessed” or “killed for blasphemy” you will find real people dying now at the hand of those who acted on such harmful beliefs.
We are now nearing the point where several Islamic countries will have the real “nuclear option”. Because of this I grow more concerned about the Abrahamic ideas of demon possession, and blasphemy.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2822215/Paraguay-woman-accused-witchcraft-burned-alive.html
www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/04/14/arrest-warrant-raising-ceremony-child-death-mexico/25778451/
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544739/Revealed-Mother-accused-stabbing-two-toddlers-death-exorcism-commander-church-group-called-Demon-Assassins.html
www.indexoncensorship.org/2015/04/padraig-reidy-sentenced-to-death-for-not-believing-in-god/
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Post by snow on Apr 19, 2015 11:36:49 GMT -5
I like small group conversations....especially with people I know. Big parties and crowded rooms can be draining. I am married to a strong extrovert, but given the right combination of circumstances (usually interesting people and topics), I can actually out-talk him and out socialize him. He finds this hugely funny, particularly with me being fairly introverted. I like people, particularly small groups of trusted friends. I can connect with pretty much anyone one on one. Where I can get impatient and even extremely uncomfortable at times is in larger groups of people where exchanges often become superficial. I tend to have a "why bother?" attitude and sometimes I simply don't. Haha, you are I are a lot alike then. I hate superficial though I can do it when I have to. Certainly am choosing to do it less and less as I age! I am, and always have been, a bit shy. I don't see any reason for people to like me so I avoid people when I can. I don't like to impose on them. I'm sure that comes from my upbringing, but it is what it is. But like you, if the topic is interesting and I'm with people that like to talk at that level, I can probably out talk just about anyone. But my alone time to recharge is absolutely necessary to me. I wouldn't be able to survive if I didn't have my alone time. I prefer a good book to people any day.
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Post by snow on Apr 19, 2015 11:39:04 GMT -5
.....Reminds me of being in a large group "formal" Christmas supper, and the conversation was superficial and "tense ". It got a little more "real" when the York shire pudding was served, and one of the people there, who also probably felt. "Why bother", put his fork into the y pudding, and burst out, " hmmmmmmmmm, straight from the NHL." Alvin That's just too funny actually. My husband makes THE best Yorkshires, big, fluffy and really tasty. I make hockey pucks lol. It's always been a joke around our house with the kids. They always know who did the Yorkshires. It's hockey pucks again... though they all say they are really tasty hockey pucks!!
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Post by snow on Apr 19, 2015 11:53:41 GMT -5
Anyone who says they love God and shows hatred towards another person doesn't love or even know God! Also anyone who blasphemes is wrong, but I believe when it's in ignorance it is forgiven. The Bible doesn't say for God so loved his own, it says for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, so if God loves the world, his people must love all others in the world too! Did you read anywhere about Jesus stoning people to death? Or did he do the opposite and teach people that stoning was wrong? He showed love and compassion, and God sent him to show us how to live. I can talk to you about God at anytime, and if you don't agree so be it. That's your choice. But some people should think what they say about God and his people also. As that's our faith and our beliefs. To turn round and tell me or others like me that we need to grow up, and that our God is a myth and in our imagination, just shows a lack of respect for our faith! Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean he isn't real. You just don't believe, I do. Also just because I believe in God, doesn't mean I don't enjoy my life, I live my life, with the love of God in my heart, and his love has melted my heart for others! And I care more now that I ever did for my fellow man. Also, I'm a different person to what I used to be. And going out drinking or whenever else people feel is enjoyment in the world, is not for me anymore! I enjoy everyday, and thank God every day for the blessings he's given me. I never look at what I haven't got. I look at what I have got! And I have a wonderful life in God, and a wonderful father. No matter what I go through in this world! And nobody can take that away from me, because I know he's real! The point I was trying to make was, when a person of Abrahamic faith brings up the blasphemy card, it becomes the nuclear option in the conversation, as there is nowhere to go from there. The same is true for the nonbeliever when they tell the believer their god is just in their imagination, and they are deluded. Blasphemy is a problem of monotheistic religions.
The threat of committing blasphemy is not the problem for the nonbeliever. But the problem is when people ACT on the idea, and do god’s work by killing the blasphemer.
The one who warns another to not commit blasphemy does so to please god. So too the one those who kills the blasphemer, does so to please god.
The same is true of demons. People warn others that demons are real. When people believe this, and act it can lead to harm; i.e. withholding medicine, or worse witch burning. Some people get the idea their kids are possessed by demons, and a few kill them so they can go to heaven before the devil gets them. These are the acts of harm coming from religion that I speak against.
Your beliefs inform your actions. If you state your beliefs in a public forum then your ideas are open to examination, and criticism.
It’s what people do in the name of their god that I have a problem with, not what they say. I agree with Voltaire on free speech; “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.”
The problem with letting Jesus off the hook in the OT to stone to death the blasphemers is, you also believe 1) Jesus is part of the Trinity or 2) Jesus was with god before the earth was made. Either way he supported killing those who don’t acknowledge he exists. Also, why change the rules about blasphemy between the OT and NT? While the NT does not say stone people to death, it does worse, by sending them to an eternal hell, not a one day killing. Again, I have no problem with anyone believing anything, as long as those beliefs do not harm or enable harm.
The crime of blasphemy is a based on what you believe. I have learned I do not choose my beliefs, rather it is more like I am convinced by a preponderance of evidence to believe something is true.
Try this; write something you DO NOT believe in on a piece of paper, then for say an hour or so try as hard as you can to force yourself to believe it’s true, then look at the piece of paper and see if you were able to change your beliefs by choosing.
When I professed I thought if I really and truly believed something then it, had to be true. The more I believed something was true, the truer it was. The mistake I made was, even though it was true for me, that did not make it objectively true, nor was it automatically true for others. It was hard for me to understand how something so true to me was not believed by others. The key is to have evidence which support your belief, so you can show someone how you know something to be true.
There was a distinction between happiness, and truth made by George Bernard Shaw; “The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." For some people, just to be happy is good enough. For me, knowing what is objectively true makes me the most happy. This is a lifelong journey.
If you do a current news search for “killed demon possessed” or “killed for blasphemy” you will find real people dying now at the hand of those who acted on such harmful beliefs.
We are now nearing the point where several Islamic countries will have the real “nuclear option”. Because of this I grow more concerned about the Abrahamic ideas of demon possession, and blasphemy.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2822215/Paraguay-woman-accused-witchcraft-burned-alive.html
www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/04/14/arrest-warrant-raising-ceremony-child-death-mexico/25778451/
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2544739/Revealed-Mother-accused-stabbing-two-toddlers-death-exorcism-commander-church-group-called-Demon-Assassins.html
www.indexoncensorship.org/2015/04/padraig-reidy-sentenced-to-death-for-not-believing-in-god/
100% agree with this xna. Your beliefs will determine how you act. If your belief in God is like Bubbles and Maryhig and it means loving, not judging and doing no harm, then that will be reflected in their actions. If however, your belief in God is like a good portion of those who hold religious beliefs, it means that you are judged and found wanting and sometimes it even means killing you to save the saved. Like the Catholic pope that justified killing entire villages in the Crusades said, if some Catholics get killed by mistake, they will be okay with it because it's for a good cause and they will be going to heaven anyway. Many of the radical groups we see today hold that mindset to a degree. By killing the infidel you are saving them and others. It's that kind of twisted thinking that is the most dangerous of course, but also the belief in demon possession. I see you linked the toddler in Texas that was starved to death so they could bring him back from the dead, minus the demon he was supposed to be possessed with. Religion can make the mentally unstable even more dangerous imo. It can also bring comfort and joy to some and this is a positive aspect for some. Like you, I find happiness in searching for truth, not just believing what I've been told is truth. I am not able to derive any comfort from believing in a being that I cannot believe even exists. That is not a choice, it just isn't possible. I would imagine that those who do believe in something that is supernatural can't choose not to believe? I know I once was pretty sure there was a god and that that god was only accessible through the 2x2 church. So I do know what that feels like. But when that belief changed there was no going back because it became entirely illogical to me.
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Post by Jason Storebo on Dec 21, 2015 19:40:17 GMT -5
I believe that there are such things as demons. These are negative non-human entities who occasionally torment people, haunt homes, influence people's behavior, and now and then possess people. People can attract their attention by dabbling with the dark-side of the paranormal, or those who's life-styles might include substance abuse, experimenting with cruelty to others, child abuse, animal abuse, and negative activities of various kinds. They do not originate from the depths of hell, and they are known to all religions.
Another view of demons is that they could be our own self-generated "demons", that is when NDErs come back with stories of being tormented by demons, or when they find themselves in hellish like realms, this could be where a person's deepest fears, and most negative of beliefs and attitudes, come back to haunt them, and are indicative of issues and belief/attitudes that need to be overcome and changed in order for them to grow spiritually. Also, accounts of demon possession or episodes of poltergeist phenomena may be self-generated negative energy becoming externalized.
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Post by withlove on Dec 22, 2015 4:44:48 GMT -5
I believe that there are such things as demons. These are, for whatever reason, negative non-human entities who occasionally torment people, haunt homes, influence people's behavior, and now and then possess people. People can attract their attention by dabbling with the dark-side of the paranormal, or those who's life-styles might include substance abuse, experimenting with cruelty to others, child abuse, animal abuse, and negative activities of various kinds. They do not originate from the depths of a fundamentalist hell, and they are known to all religions. My understanding is that no being originates from fundamentalist hell. But you mean that the paranormal being you speak of have nothing to do with a Satan who fell from heaven? I don't disagree totally--ghosts of humans who haunt may have no connection with the devil, although I wonder why God would allow saved people to not have rest in death.
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Post by Jason Storebo on Jan 3, 2016 18:55:37 GMT -5
withlove, no I do not subscribe to the conservative Christian viewpoint regarding the paranormal. I do believe in angels and demons, but I do not believe in Satan.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 20:34:23 GMT -5
withlove, no I do not subscribe to a fundamentalist (conservative Christian) viewpoint regarding the paranormal. I do believe in angels and demons, but I do not believe in Satan. muslims don't believe in a central controlling power like satan either...
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