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Post by withlove on Apr 18, 2015 0:11:27 GMT -5
Rational, Who would it be worse for if the positive changes with CSA handling were happening top-down? From experience, the future victims. Organizations, especially those who have given their leading members (overseers, workers elders, priests, etc.) special powers, have in the past turned a blind eye towards abuse and have tried to deal with the offenders on their own. The results have not been good. Sure, everyone in the organization is a human and as a human they should all try to prevent child abuse and report known instances of abuse or suspected instances of abuse to the authorities. You could say this is the goal. Just as importantly, the leaders need to make sure all the members know that reporting abuse to the authorities is their only option. Realistically, when you believe that a person is the only path to eternal salvation you probably do not want to report that person to the authorities. Past experience has shown that those who do the right thing and report abuse are not treated kindly. Hopefully this will change. There is also a lot of ill feelings, anger, hostility of some towards the F&W as a group and the workers as individuals. In some cases the blame is directed to the group for many reasons and to the overseers for allowing some workers suspected/accused of abusing children and of sexual abuse to continue to function as workers. Because of the culture reporting these criminals is a difficult choice. While this is probably still the case hopefully things will change both in the treatment of people who do the right thing and the realization that all the wrongs are not the fault of the workers and the group as a whole. People need to take responsibility for their own actions actions or lack of action. The bottom line is that the cooperation of the victims/guardians, usually the people at the bottom, is the best way to have an offender removed from endangering others. It would be great if the people at the top would get involved and encourage/help the members act but even if they don't the change can come from the bottom up. In management there is top-down change and bottom-up change. For a change initiative to be most successful the top management has to communicate and the employees have to respond. Generally, if the employees (members) do not embrace the initiative the top management cannot force it to happen. On the other hand, the members can frequently can implement change even in face of opposition of the top management. Many who post here have mentioned that the fact that someone was abusing children was known prior to the person being reported to the authorities and charged with a crime. People have posted that they tried to tell their parents and were told not to mention it again. Children were seen in compromising situations with workers by their parents and the blame was placed on the child and the offender went on to offend others. Others have said that there was pressure from leaders not to report abuse because the offender had repented. I am not sure that all members and leaders have a vested interest in radical change. If I'm understanding you correctly, we have the same idea of what positive change would be in a top-down situation. Changing the culture so that people understand that it is okay, and essential, to report CSA without the workers' approval or involvement first is not going to hurt anyone. *Waiting* for someone at the top to do something is dangerous, and that is what the current situation often is. Some people (I would suggest many or even most) are just not going to feel okay about that unless it is expressed to them by the workers, or unless they learn through a bad experience. We do what we can speaking out here, and friends can speak about it with each other and workers to help move it along from the bottom up. When you say that the reality of top-down change isn't best for everyone maybe you mean that *relying* on top people to take care of everything is dangerous, and I agree, and I don't think anyone here would disagree with you. I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. To clarify or possibly make it more confusing, I think that top-down change in this situation really only will happen after some bottom-up pressure. So....concerned people at the bottom or anywhere on the ladder talk to people at the top and eventually the people at the top talk to everyone about how things should be different. Essentially, bottom to top to bottom. Or, bottom to ALL, and top to all. Or middle to all and top to all. Make sense?
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Post by snow on Apr 18, 2015 11:13:48 GMT -5
So then, those that are comfortable with talking to the workers, encourage them to stand up in front of everyone and tell them there is problems with CSA and if anyone knows about a situation to immediately report it to the authorities and then let the workers know so that the person can be removed from the work under the official investigation is over. If the workers aren't going to take the initiative to broadcast what they want people to do, the people need to encourage them to do so. If they are reluctant that should raise some red flags for people.
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Post by rational on Apr 20, 2015 22:14:47 GMT -5
So....concerned people at the bottom or anywhere on the ladder talk to people at the top and eventually the people at the top talk to everyone about how things should be different. Essentially, bottom to top to bottom. Or, bottom to ALL, and top to all. Or middle to all and top to all. Make sense? I believe we agree. But that last paragraph had so many 'bottoms' I found it difficult to focus and my eyes glazed over!
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Post by howitis on Jul 15, 2015 23:10:05 GMT -5
Hi all, I am very, very new here and I'm really sorry, but I can't actually fathom what all this is about. It seems there is large amount of contention within these pages of how things should ir should not be, how things should or should not be done. So here I am about to bare a little of my experience and of course I feel this may well inflame your wrath. I am a grown woman and yes I was abused not by a worker, but elders of the church in 2 different states on 3 occasions, and whilst you people would love that perpertrators were to ask for forgiveness...no, no and no.....I acknowledge that other victims may want this, but for me I do not wish to be near those men ever again, I do not want them sending me 'sorry' letters, I am old enough to know how hollow most 'sorry statements' are. You will find that sexual assault was and still is reported very haphazardly, not just within church affiliations, but within society in general because of fear of retribution and denial. You will also find that most victims who have been through the courts have found this a very harrowing experience, you will also find that most victims feel sentences handed down are inadequate in terms of the grief experienced. This is because firstly every circumstance is different, every piece of evidence is different, some people lie really well, and basically men are not good judges. A girl who was abused in foster care actually said of the Australian Royal Commission into child abuse when asked to put forth her story..'and what good will that really do?'! Please unless you've walked in our shoes do not judge us, do not suggest a fix.....just be kind to us. Don't bring us before other men to tell our story, allow us instead to come before God, who can offer us healing like no man can, encourage us in our faith, instead of tearing it down. There are many, many of us still professing regardless of what you may believe. Ross and the many others of you, if you no longer wish to follow in the church, move on, stop picking at certain workers. I am sure the head worker never suggested that this Noel Harvey be rebaptised, but that Mr Harvey suggested it himself. What choice did the head worker really have, not allow him and find another disgruntled ex professing person posting stuff on the internet! Please if you're not happy in the church, leave, but leave for good, don't go finding out about what thus or that worker saud, move on, stop looking in their address books, what really is your aim here? To blow out someone elses candle so yours burns brighter? Where are your works? What did you do for God today? My healing came from turning to God and His word, I realise I am far from perfect, but there is a promise that we can cast ALL our care upon Him!!! Sexual offenders usually do not benefit from prison sentences, most of them come out still saying it's the victims fault, it is just like a sickness. What happened to me was not my fault, or my parents, or the workers, or the church's.....it was simply men who had their minds and hearts set on wrongful deeds. Society doesn't know how to handle sex offenders or their victims, so the best we the victims can have is love from a merciful God. Please ponder these things and your own motives. Much love to all
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 16, 2015 1:10:54 GMT -5
Hi howitis, are you in Australia ? If you don't want to answer I understand.
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Post by howitis on Jul 16, 2015 1:21:26 GMT -5
Yes I am at present. Having trouble navigating this board, had a reply sorted and it kindly disappeared....perhaps my input was not meant to be:-)
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 16, 2015 1:28:18 GMT -5
It takes a bit to get used to ! Did you know Noel Harvey personally ? The reason I ask is because like you a lot of people have been hurt by what he done, a very close friend of mine was one.
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Post by howitis on Jul 16, 2015 2:42:32 GMT -5
Hi Roselyn, no I don't know the man personally, but know about him and know many who know him, he wasn't one of my perpertrators. I feel for your friend and honestly feel it is not the fault of the workers, the church or anyone but those who inflict such cruelness on others. Society doesn't know how to handle sex offenders and offering money to the victims is really a slap in the face.......what price does one put on a stolen childhood?? All the answers are in Jesus, he has empowered my life, I married an 'outsider', who now professes (sadly someone from his old worldly church was jailed recently for CSA), it's everywhere!!! Yes I had to not take part in meetings etc and I know others were treated differently, yet my faith deepens!!!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 16, 2015 3:08:24 GMT -5
The issue I have with Noel Harvey is that the Head Workers knew what was happening and done nothing for many years, I also feel that Clyde made the wrong choice to re-baptise him. He was jailed for committing a crime not just a sin, he has not apologised to his victims, so why should he be re-baptised ? He will not be able to go to meetings so what is the point of re-baptism? Yes CSA is everywhere, but the F&W are quick to say they are the "Only Right Way" and put other churches down, yet it is happening amongst them as well. I personally don't agree with people not being able to "take part" because they married an "outsider" who are they workers to make such a rule ? Did Jesus say you cannot take part because you married an "outsider"? Then you take it one step further and can say what exactly is an "Outsider"?
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Post by howitis on Jul 16, 2015 4:05:24 GMT -5
As I said previously perhaps he asked to be rebaptised, what really could one do, refuse and have someone else posting stuff on the net regarding the church, we could also ask who are the workers to say who can and cannot be baptised? Who are we to say? Apologies are often shallow, what would it really mean coming from this man who obviously wanted to be 'rebaptised'? Don't forget our walk with God is personal, if the workers did know and do nothing, they will have to account for that at lifes end, for now there is no sense in becoming bitter, pointing the finger at individuals and assuming we know more than others, we must move forward ourselves, becoming more and more Christ like, if certain people believe their way is the only right way, they too will have to account for that. We choose.........we can go forth in the Spirit, empowered and enlightened by it helping those around us, knowing that nothing can take that Spirit from us or we can go forth acusing and embittered by life doing and saying things that are unhelpful and causing the Spirit to depart.......what a sad way to live. Let us all go forth, knowing our Saviour Lord and knowing we too must give account for our words and actions!!!
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Post by howitis on Jul 16, 2015 4:41:10 GMT -5
Thankyou, it IS how it is!!!
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Post by maryhig on Jul 16, 2015 5:29:28 GMT -5
The issue I have with Noel Harvey is that the Head Workers knew what was happening and done nothing for many years, I also feel that Clyde made the wrong choice to re-baptise him. He was jailed for committing a crime not just a sin, he has not apologised to his victims, so why should he be re-baptised ? He will not be able to go to meetings so what is the point of re-baptism? Yes CSA is everywhere, but the F&W are quick to say they are the "Only Right Way" and put other churches down, yet it is happening amongst them as well. I personally don't agree with people not being able to "take part" because they married an "outsider" who are they workers to make such a rule ? Did Jesus say you cannot take part because you married an "outsider"? Then you take it one step further and can say what exactly is an "Outsider"? Hi Roslyn, The way I look at th is, a man can re-baptise another a thousand times. But God truly knows the heart. And he truly knows who has repented. We can forgive sins done to us, but only God can completely forgive. Even though Jesus forgave those who crucified him, he still had to go to God and ask him to forgive them, and Stephen, being stoned to death prayed to God and asked him not to lay that sin at their charge. They left it in Gods hands. Because only God can judge. So no matter how many times a person is baptised by man, God knows their true heart. That's why we can't judge. I don't know your old church, but there is good and bad everywhere. Right down to our own hearts. So any people that do these things will have to face God eventually and he knows everything about them.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 16, 2015 5:32:32 GMT -5
As I said previously perhaps he asked to be rebaptised, what really could one do, refuse and have someone else posting stuff on the net regarding the church, we could also ask who are the workers to say who can and cannot be baptised? Who are we to say? Apologies are often shallow, what would it really mean coming from this man who obviously wanted to be 'rebaptised'? Don't forget our walk with God is personal, if the workers did know and do nothing, they will have to account for that at lifes end, for now there is no sense in becoming bitter, pointing the finger at individuals and assuming we know more than others, we must move forward ourselves, becoming more and more Christ like, if certain people believe their way is the only right way, they too will have to account for that. We choose.........we can go forth in the Spirit, empowered and enlightened by it helping those around us, knowing that nothing can take that Spirit from us or we can go forth acusing and embittered by life doing and saying things that are unhelpful and causing the Spirit to depart.......what a sad way to live. Let us all go forth, knowing our Saviour Lord and knowing we too must give account for our words and actions!!! He has not been part of the F&W since he was jailed, so why would Clyde re-baptise him ? Why was it done in secret if Clyde felt it was the right thing to do ? Also if one of his victims wanted to be re-baptised would Clyde do it, or would they have to re-profess before they could be re-baptised ? I think there are more people posting things because he has been re-baptised than if he wasn't. I suppose why this upsets people is because over the years Clyde has had a lot to say to people over trivial things, yet with something major like this it is covered over, why wasn't something done about this in the 70's ? Why should those girls have suffered ?
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Post by howitis on Jul 16, 2015 5:48:14 GMT -5
The real point is........has the rebaptisim of this man really affected our own personal salvation? Do we have to account for something that a worker has done? Or someone else has requested? No we answer personally for what we have done, what we have said!!! Another thing is if it was such a secret how come so many know about it? The fact this man hasn't been in fellowship doesn't mean he didn't reprofess, but has probably been kept away from fellowship for a good reason......we can get so carried away by the 'wrongs' of others and the 'not rights' of the workers, that we lose sight of our own walk and ways.......blowing out anothers candle doesn't make ours shine any brighter!!! We should remember always that verse in Philippians 4.8'......whatsoever things are true.......think on these things.'
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 16, 2015 6:20:58 GMT -5
So why do the workers feel they can stand people down for marrying an outsider or tell someone who is divorced & re-married they cannot take part (although that varies from country to country)if they really feel we have to answer to God ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 6:36:15 GMT -5
Quote - "So why do the workers feel they can stand people down for marrying an outsider or tell someone who is divorced & re-married they cannot take part (although that varies from country to country) if they really feel we have to answer to God ? "
Hebrews 13:17 KJV "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
Is the author of Hebrews speaking about the Ministry?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 16, 2015 11:54:34 GMT -5
The issue I have with Noel Harvey is that the Head Workers knew what was happening and done nothing for many years, I also feel that Clyde made the wrong choice to re-baptise him. He was jailed for committing a crime not just a sin, he has not apologised to his victims, so why should he be re-baptised ? He will not be able to go to meetings so what is the point of re-baptism? Yes CSA is everywhere, but the F&W are quick to say they are the "Only Right Way" and put other churches down, yet it is happening amongst them as well. I personally don't agree with people not being able to "take part" because they married an "outsider" who are they workers to make such a rule ? Did Jesus say you cannot take part because you married an "outsider"? Then you take it one step further and can say what exactly is an "Outsider"? Hi Roslyn, The way I look at th is, a man can re-baptise another a thousand times. But God truly knows the heart. And he truly knows who has repented. We can forgive sins done to us, but only God can completely forgive. Even though Jesus forgave those who crucified him, he still had to go to God and ask him to forgive them, and Stephen, being stoned to death prayed to God and asked him not to lay that sin at their charge. They left it in Gods hands. Because only God can judge. So no matter how many times a person is baptised by man, God knows their true heart. That's why we can't judge. I don't know your old church, but there is good and bad everywhere. Right down to our own hearts. So any people that do these things will have to face God eventually and he knows everything about them.
Even if there were a "GOD that people have to face" in some far flung after life, -that does nothing in the here and now for the person that has been wounded by that person in the present time.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 16, 2015 13:02:53 GMT -5
Hi Roslyn, The way I look at th is, a man can re-baptise another a thousand times. But God truly knows the heart. And he truly knows who has repented. We can forgive sins done to us, but only God can completely forgive. Even though Jesus forgave those who crucified him, he still had to go to God and ask him to forgive them, and Stephen, being stoned to death prayed to God and asked him not to lay that sin at their charge. They left it in Gods hands. Because only God can judge. So no matter how many times a person is baptised by man, God knows their true heart. That's why we can't judge. I don't know your old church, but there is good and bad everywhere. Right down to our own hearts. So any people that do these things will have to face God eventually and he knows everything about them.
Even if there were a "GOD that people have to face" in some far flung after life, -that does nothing in the here and now for the person that has been wounded by that person in the present time. I understand that people are suffering, and I've said before, it's disgusting. And I think it should be reported immediately to the police. I can see how hurt Roslyn is. And I totally understand. Because I think to do that to an innocent child is despicable. And there is no excuse whatsoever. But I'm talking about baptism, and unlike you I have faith and believe. And I know we pay for what we do in this life. Unless our heart has really changed and we have truly repented. So it doesn't matter whether this man has been baptised once, or a hundred times. When he walks our of his body he will meet God. And God will judge his heart! As for the people who have been through this, my heart goes out to them I can't even imagine the hurt they are going through. And anyone caught doing this and any other vile act, should face the consequences! With the things I've been through in my life, God has helped pull me through. And I hope he helps heal the hearts of those suffering!
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2015 14:19:38 GMT -5
Quote - "So why do the workers feel they can stand people down for marrying an outsider or tell someone who is divorced & re-married they cannot take part (although that varies from country to country) if they really feel we have to answer to God ? " Hebrews 13:17 KJV "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
Is the author of Hebrews speaking about the Ministry?Bert, if you sincerely want to know the answer to this question take a look at the following... www.wickedshepherds.com/ObeyThem.html
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 15:12:29 GMT -5
Fixit, thank you for reproducing that explanation of this topic.
For almost twenty years, this is what, how, and why I understood/understand it from my study of the various Greek New Testaments. Further, I tried to help my loved ones understand it. However, since it was not the understanding of their workers, anything along this line was discarded and cast aside along with me.
Thank you so much again. I had been working up such a post, but failing due to my advancing age. My learning will simply have to die with me. A prophet is certainly not without honor, save in his own country. We miss out on much by not being able to recognize who Is a prophet and who is not. The person composing this which you have posted in my opinion deserves much honor.
This tract should be copied to hard print, published, and distributed to everyone believing in the Holy Bible. Will it? Of course not. Tramples on too many toes!
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2015 16:41:33 GMT -5
You are way ahead of me in language studies Dennis, but it's clear to me that so much has been distorted in translation.
"Follow me" means more like "come along with me".
"Believe" is more akin to "belove".
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 16, 2015 16:45:11 GMT -5
Thanks for that fixit. It always used to make me feel a bit uneasy when those verses were spoken about. And even more uneasy when they were used as a defence by workers. i.e. 'It will be on my shoulders is its the wrong thing'... IMO it was teaching us to ignore our own relationship with The Lord and to follow blindly what we were told. I don't really think that is good teaching!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 16:59:20 GMT -5
Absolutely agree with you, fixit, so much HAS been lost in the manner you reference!
Also, it is surely an interesting and on going topic, fixit.
Pistis or pesio for me boil down to "lovingly accept as fact" in noun or verb form.
Surely agree on "follow me," except for one place where it seems to mean more than merely accompany, and it was not anywhere so recorded of Yahu'shuah's words. Everyplace I can find where He is recorded as using it, surely it means like you express "come along with me" as we might ask someone to follow (accompany) us l Worth every minute of my time studying! Would do it all again, only more forcefully!
All the best...
You are way ahead of me in language studies Dennis, but it's clear to me that so much has been distorted in translation. "Follow me" means more like "come along with me". "Believe" is more akin to "belove".
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2015 17:33:35 GMT -5
Thanks for that fixit. It always used to make me feel a bit uneasy when those verses were spoken about. And even more uneasy when they were used as a defence by workers. i.e. 'It will be on my shoulders is its the wrong thing'... IMO it was teaching us to ignore our own relationship with The Lord and to follow blindly what we were told. I don't really think that is good teaching! Here's some scripture that is often wrongly interpreted... I wonder if Dennis has studied the original of this verse?
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Post by howitis on Jul 16, 2015 19:13:23 GMT -5
Somehow I knew it would get around to this!!! I was told by workers not to marry when I did (but I did), I was asked not to take part in the meeting(but continued), perhaps you could say I was rebellious, but honestly I could find no scripture pertaining to the workers requests. Never once were those portions quoted to me about obeying those having rule over you. I continued to take part and also read, prayed and meditated, finally it was revealed to me that certain members of my church were offended by me taking part, I went to the elder and discussed it with him, next Sunday meeting he explained to all that I would not be taking part because it was obviously causing offense to some. Those people loved to 'tattle' to the workers and to this day I believe that many of the workers would rather not be involved with much of the storytelling!! Is reprofessing such a big deal, I love to hear the Gospel and am newly convicted each time and would gladly stand again and again!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 19:55:58 GMT -5
Fixit quote from quote - "These are the all-time favorite verses that church leaders love shoving down church members throats and then stand there and watch their subjects shrivel up and cower in the dust."
shovel, throats, shrivel, cower, dust... That should alert you to what you are about to read. I can read modern Greek, but not the ancient Greek. A good place to grasp translations is to simply read a parallel bible.
From an earlier website of mine (re Greek translations) An example is the way that biblical characters are undergoing role reversals. Mary the Mother of Jesus and Judas the betrayer of Jesus, for example, are having a liberal makeover. For Mary the word "virgin" (“Alma” - Greek) in "translated" into one of its multiple meanings, ie “young girl.” But Mary stated, "How can this be, I do not know a man?" The translator then takes the Greek word for "man" into its original "anthropos," which also means "husband." That is, there is a human father, but it is not Joseph. And to further strip Mary of virtue, even her song is reinterpreted. Mary says "God has lifted up his humble maidservant;" so the Greek word "humble" is connected to the old Greek version of the Hebrew Bible which was used to describe the rape of Dinah in Genesis, and other incidents of sexual violation. Thus Mary’s "humility" could be "humiliation" from a sexual assault. Judas' new spin is just as clever: The Greek word for "betray" is re-interpreted as "giving over" as in Judas "gave over" Jesus in the time-honored way of presenting someone so their ideas could be officially tested. But Peter is portrayed as the real traitor for denying and abandoning Jesus.
This is intellectual effrontery and mockery of the bible.[/i]
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Post by howitis on Jul 16, 2015 21:46:50 GMT -5
Is it possible to go back to our own Faith, as in the Spirit shall teach you all things......our interpretations and ideals are so often so far from the mark.......are we not better off to let God reveal things to us than 'leaning on our own understanding'?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 17, 2015 1:12:33 GMT -5
Quote - "So why do the workers feel they can stand people down for marrying an outsider or tell someone who is divorced & re-married they cannot take part (although that varies from country to country) if they really feel we have to answer to God ? " Hebrews 13:17 KJV "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
Is the author of Hebrews speaking about the Ministry?Bert, if you sincerely want to know the answer to this question take a look at the following... www.wickedshepherds.com/ObeyThem.htmlIn our meeting, no one person is above another, but some are stronger in God. And we see that scripture quoted in Hebrews as meaning listening to the those who are ahead, stronger in spirit. So (for example) if something is brought up in the meeting, and through the spirit that pricks me in the heart, then I should listen. I've never been told to obey anyone, as I have freewill. Others can and have advised me, but then I have to decide what I do, and its then between me and God. We don't believe that one should be above another, and we believe all should remain humble. Revelation 19 And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. If an angel of God is saying he's a fellowservant and don't bow down to him, then what right does any man/woman have to think they are above another. We are all fellowservants in God. We are to worship God and God only. Not any man!
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