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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 16:17:48 GMT -5
The fact that Judas was holding the bag of money is no indication that he had a love of money. We can logically assume that he was the one carrying the communal purse. We don't have any record of how he got the money to begin with. Ok if you look at John chapter 12 verse 5 and 6 it says 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. This does show he had a love for money Thirty pieces of silver, sheckles?? Caught his interests, was it for the love of money,? I wonder.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 16:18:45 GMT -5
I'm coming to the conclusion that most of this kind of talk from Christians is not really what they believe but thoughts that just roll around in their mind -- questions that they haven't answered for themselves, but resent the fact that others are more interested in knowing the answers than they are. All this preaching by "Christians" about "KNOWING" they are saved, and then when asked about it .... they don't know. If you are judging my position thats fine for you to do that. I think what you miss about the concept of the bornagain experience is the spiritual link. The relationship /friendship/love between a believer and the holy spirit. Its like you having a longtime friend over time you begin to know them. Because of time you have had with them in a 2 way communication. You dont know everything about them but most things. You also have many impressions because of relationship what they are like. You protect them when people speak against them bz you know them differently than a person who has never been close to them like you have. To suggest that anyones mind just 'rolls around' is kinda off. If anything my mind dances. I do roll my eyes at hidious comments like the one you just made. You must be referring to my comment about having confidence that Im saved. Would you like me to show you scriptures on that. I do believe strongly in the word being active. Also doing its work. Working together with the holy spirit to accomplish what the lord set out for it too do. My opinion is I make you uncomfortable with what I believe. I like maryhig have proved the lord over my lifetime. In him being faithful to me in thousands of ways. Ive been very open about my christian walk. Ive also explained how it all works. Ive asked probably more questions you have even thought of. So dont insult my intelligence. If i say I dont know to a question. Then that is still an answer. Frankly by your comments it looked to me like you were trying to provoke us. The only time I judge an atheist is when they get nasty/cruel/ or belittling. As for preaching? Ive never been aware of preaching to anyone on here. I think you assume that. I wasn't judging you. I don't care how it works for you. All I want to know is how people come to their beliefs. I don't know why people don't want to explain their "prove the Lord" experiences with me. I've had a few of my own, believe it or not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 16:23:56 GMT -5
The fact that Judas was holding the bag of money is no indication that he had a love of money. We can logically assume that he was the one carrying the communal purse. We don't have any record of how he got the money to begin with. Ok if you look at John chapter 12 verse 5 and 6 it says 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. This does show he had a love for money Thirty pieces of silver - shekels?? Caught his interests, was it because it was his love for money? I wonder.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 16:25:53 GMT -5
The fact that Judas was holding the bag of money is no indication that he had a love of money. We can logically assume that he was the one carrying the communal purse. We don't have any record of how he got the money to begin with. Ok if you look at John chapter 12 verse 5 and 6 it says 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. This does show he had a love for money I didn't say you were wrong -- I just suggested that because of his role as keeper of the purse he was more vulnerable to the temptation.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 16:26:06 GMT -5
I know what Christians think of Christian charity and love of money. I'm interested in how God would treat a highly virtuous non-Christian. Bob, I assume you are speaking here of the biblical God here and not Allah or one of the other Gods. The biblical God will treat the virtuous non Christian in exactly the same way as he treated the virtuous non Isrealite in the Old Testament or as he has promised to treat the virtuous non believer in the Book of Revelations. So believe not at your peril irrespective of your virtuosity. However, fortunately the biblical God is just a biblical creation and is not to be taken too seriously outside of theology. You'll be reassured to know that the only true God, the God of Nature, doesn't get too concerned about whether you are virtuous or not, or indeed what religion you are. The rain falls on the just and the unjust and the sun tends to rise in the east every morning irrespective of such things as honesty or sincerity or virtuosity. Alas. Matt10 Matt, I am not sure that I understand what you mean by 'only true God, the God of Nature.'
Is it the pagan god or gods like they worshiped in times before the Israelites ?
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Post by bubbles on Mar 31, 2015 16:28:56 GMT -5
If you are judging my position thats fine for you to do that. I think what you miss about the concept of the bornagain experience is the spiritual link. The relationship /friendship/love between a believer and the holy spirit. Its like you having a longtime friend over time you begin to know them. Because of time you have had with them in a 2 way communication. You dont know everything about them but most things. You also have many impressions because of relationship what they are like. You protect them when people speak against them bz you know them differently than a person who has never been close to them like you have. To suggest that anyones mind just 'rolls around' is kinda off. If anything my mind dances. I do roll my eyes at hidious comments like the one you just made. You must be referring to my comment about having confidence that Im saved. Would you like me to show you scriptures on that. I do believe strongly in the word being active. Also doing its work. Working together with the holy spirit to accomplish what the lord set out for it too do. My opinion is I make you uncomfortable with what I believe. I like maryhig have proved the lord over my lifetime. In him being faithful to me in thousands of ways. Ive been very open about my christian walk. Ive also explained how it all works. Ive asked probably more questions you have even thought of. So dont insult my intelligence. If i say I dont know to a question. Then that is still an answer. Frankly by your comments it looked to me like you were trying to provoke us. The only time I judge an atheist is when they get nasty/cruel/ or belittling. As for preaching? Ive never been aware of preaching to anyone on here. I think you assume that. I wasn't judging you. I don't care how it works for you. All I want to know is how people come to their beliefs. I don't know why people don't want to explain their "prove the Lord" experiences with me. I've had a few of my own, believe it or not. You could try reading' walking by faith' on the publish his deeds thread. How I came to be strong in faith was after being baptised in the holy spirit. Everything changed for me. Since then it has been just that. I walk by faith daily. There were about 4yrs when I went through the darkest hours of my soul and went a bit awol even then I clung to the lord.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 16:36:48 GMT -5
The Bible says nothing about atheists? Atheists are unbelievers, right? Check a concordance for what the Bible says about unbelief. (Did you have a senior moment?) In the Bible, unbelievers are those who do not believe in the God of the Jews or the God of the Christians -- they are not atheists. Atheism was not recognized at the time the Bible was written. Such unbelievers just believed in other gods. Come on Bob. The bible is perfectly clear. Anyone whose name is not found written in the lambs book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. That's you and me. And you will burn for ever and ever in the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels amidst much weeping and gnashing of teeth. God is no respecter of persons. Atheist or non believer, call it what you like. We all go to the same dark pit. Matt10
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 16:40:11 GMT -5
Did you think I was looking for the wrong answer. I had no problem with the answer you gave -- I just needed more clarification. There are no right or wrong answers irrespective of what type of answer you are looking for. This is not an examination. Rightness or wrongness is simply a matter of perspective of the believer. I don't know what type of answer you are looking for but I'm merely pointing out the futility of seeking a 'correct' answer from those who believe entirely differently than you do. That is the reason that believers don't seek the 'correct' answers from the likes of me and you. Matt10 Ah. Then I guess we're on the same page.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 16:42:38 GMT -5
I wasn't judging you. I don't care how it works for you. All I want to know is how people come to their beliefs. I don't know why people don't want to explain their "prove the Lord" experiences with me. I've had a few of my own, believe it or not. You could try reading' walking by faith' on the publish his deeds thread. How I came to be strong in faith was after being baptised in the holy spirit. Everything changed for me. Since then it has been just that. I walk by faith daily. There were about 4yrs when I went through the darkest hours of my soul and went a bit awol even then I clung to the lord. Did something physically change at the time of your baptism?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 16:50:42 GMT -5
In the Bible, unbelievers are those who do not believe in the God of the Jews or the God of the Christians -- they are not atheists. Atheism was not recognized at the time the Bible was written. Such unbelievers just believed in other gods. Come on Bob. The bible is perfectly clear. Anyone whose name is not found written in the lambs book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. That's you and me. And you will burn for ever and ever in the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels amidst much weeping and gnashing of teeth. God is no respecter of persons. Atheist or non believer, call it what you like. We all go to the same dark pit. Matt10 Just a minute -- I didn't say what you think I said. Are you saying that all the good Hindus names are in the lamb's book of life? All the upright Pagans, Zoroastrians, et al. None of them are atheists, you know. Nowhere in the Bible are people identified as being atheist. Atheism wasn't even addressed in non religious literature of the time.
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Post by stevo on Mar 31, 2015 16:51:52 GMT -5
Ok if you look at John chapter 12 verse 5 and 6 it says 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. This does show he had a love for money I didn't say you were wrong -- I just suggested that because of his role as keeper of the purse he was more vulnerable to the temptation. So you can see then that having money does give you temptations so its better not to have it in abundance, like the man with the yacht he should be looking like Jesus was for the people that need help. Although we think that having money is better than being poor I would not swap my life to gain money to be poor of heart.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 16:58:42 GMT -5
I didn't say you were wrong -- I just suggested that because of his role as keeper of the purse he was more vulnerable to the temptation. So you can see then that having money does give you temptations so its better not to have it in abundance, like the man with the yacht he should be looking like Jesus was for the people that need help. Although we think that having money is better than being poor I would not swap my life to gain money to be poor of heart. But money isn't the root of evil -- the "love" of money is the root. The second man in the OP was equally wealthy to start with. The parable is about what you do when you have the money, not about acquiring it by selfish or illegal means.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 17:05:07 GMT -5
Bob, I assume you are speaking here of the biblical God here and not Allah or one of the other Gods. The biblical God will treat the virtuous non Christian in exactly the same way as he treated the virtuous non Isrealite in the Old Testament or as he has promised to treat the virtuous non believer in the Book of Revelations. So believe not at your peril irrespective of your virtuosity. However, fortunately the biblical God is just a biblical creation and is not to be taken too seriously outside of theology. You'll be reassured to know that the only true God, the God of Nature, doesn't get too concerned about whether you are virtuous or not, or indeed what religion you are. The rain falls on the just and the unjust and the sun tends to rise in the east every morning irrespective of such things as honesty or sincerity or virtuosity. Alas. Matt10 Matt, I am not sure that I understand what you mean by 'only true God, the God of Nature.'
Is it the pagan god or gods like they worshiped in times before the Israelites ?
DMG fear ye not, I've come to the realisation that people rarely understand other people's gods. The God of Nature is my God and a damn fine god he is too. He carries none of the absurd baggage of the likes of the Islamic, Israelite or 2x2 Gods and doesn't care whether you have a telly, if you are willing to sacrifice your children or how many times you pray in a day. Even better in that he doesn't care what you smoke, how much you drink or who or what up get up to in the bedroom. Yet he still manages to make the grass grow and the sun shine and provides all the wonder and splendour of nature for the benefit of everyone .... whether you believe in him or not. He really is no respecter of persons unlike the Christian God who claims to be but will cast you into the fires of hell just as soon as your back is turned should you dare to question him. Unlike other Gods you don't need to have knowledge of a religious book to understand or believe in him. The evidence of nature is there for all to see. You don't have to rely on dead men's tales or men alive who make stuff up. I hope that explains the God of Nature sufficiently for you to understand why you don't believe in him. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 17:13:01 GMT -5
Come on Bob. The bible is perfectly clear. Anyone whose name is not found written in the lambs book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. That's you and me. And you will burn for ever and ever in the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels amidst much weeping and gnashing of teeth. God is no respecter of persons. Atheist or non believer, call it what you like. We all go to the same dark pit. Matt10 Just a minute -- I didn't say what you think I said. Are you saying that all the good Hindus names are in the lamb's book of life? All the upright Pagans, Zoroastrians, et al. None of them are atheists, you know. Nowhere in the Bible are people identified as being atheist. Atheism wasn't even addressed in non religious literature of the time. Bob you're doing it again. You're asking me questions about the contents of a biblical lambs book of life which neither of us believe exists. This is beyond silly. Matt10
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Post by stevo on Mar 31, 2015 17:17:19 GMT -5
So you can see then that having money does give you temptations so its better not to have it in abundance, like the man with the yacht he should be looking like Jesus was for the people that need help. Although we think that having money is better than being poor I would not swap my life to gain money to be poor of heart. But money isn't the root of evil -- the "love" of money is the root. The second man in the OP was equally wealthy to start with. The parable is about what you do when you have the money, not about acquiring it by selfish or illegal means. Yes the first man comes under that category of the love of money is the root of all evil because he believes in God and the ways of God . The second man does not know God and as Mary hig said in one of her posts he won't be worried about what his actions are as he does not believe in God why would he want to be with him.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 31, 2015 17:28:05 GMT -5
Just a minute -- I didn't say what you think I said. Are you saying that all the good Hindus names are in the lamb's book of life? All the upright Pagans, Zoroastrians, et al. None of them are atheists, you know. Nowhere in the Bible are people identified as being atheist. Atheism wasn't even addressed in non religious literature of the time. Bob you're doing it again. You're asking me questions about the contents of a biblical lambs book of life which neither of us believe exists. This is beyond silly. Matt10 "Beyond silly". I like that descriptor, and think I am going to have to borrow it! Bob, you might want to look up akashic records and how that relates to Hinduism. It's as good an equivalent as I have found to the Lamb's Book of Life.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 17:34:29 GMT -5
Just a minute -- I didn't say what you think I said. Are you saying that all the good Hindus names are in the lamb's book of life? All the upright Pagans, Zoroastrians, et al. None of them are atheists, you know. Nowhere in the Bible are people identified as being atheist. Atheism wasn't even addressed in non religious literature of the time. Bob you're doing it again. You're asking me questions about the contents of a biblical lambs book of life which neither of us believe exists. This is beyond silly. Matt10 I don't care that you don't believe. I just said that atheism wasn't mentioned in the Bible, and you tried to tell me it was -- or I think that's what you were trying to do. What is so freaking silly about an unbeliever knowing what it says in the Bible?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 17:37:44 GMT -5
But money isn't the root of evil -- the "love" of money is the root. The second man in the OP was equally wealthy to start with. The parable is about what you do when you have the money, not about acquiring it by selfish or illegal means. Yes the first man comes under that category of the love of money is the root of all evil because he believes in God and the ways of God . The second man does not know God and as Mary hig said in one of her posts he won't be worried about what his actions are as he does not believe in God why would he want to be with him. I know all that. No one seems to get what I'm interested in knowing. Assuming there is a heaven and God has something to do with letting people in -- what does someone think are the chances of the second man (the righteous one) being surprised by ending up in heaven -- even though he didn't think there was such a place?
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 31, 2015 17:44:37 GMT -5
Yes the first man comes under that category of the love of money is the root of all evil because he believes in God and the ways of God . The second man does not know God and as Mary hig said in one of her posts he won't be worried about what his actions are as he does not believe in God why would he want to be with him. I know all that. No one seems to get what I'm interested in knowing. Assuming there is a heaven and God has something to do with letting people in -- what does someone think are the chances of the second man (the righteous one) being surprised by ending up in heaven -- even though he didn't think there was such a place? 100% Given the assumptions. I would even bet the Bible supports this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 18:08:32 GMT -5
Bob you're doing it again. You're asking me questions about the contents of a biblical lambs book of life which neither of us believe exists. This is beyond silly. Matt10 I don't care that you don't believe. I just said that atheism wasn't mentioned in the Bible, and you tried to tell me it was -- or I think that's what you were trying to do. What is so freaking silly about an unbeliever knowing what it says in the Bible? I didn't tell you it was. I merely told you what it said in the bible. And you already know what it says in the bible. You've read it. However what you appear to be seeking is an interpretation of what it says in the bible. And you can interpret it just as well as I or anyone else. So you get to decide. That's the beauty of the bible. The believer can interpret it in any way they like. So you can tell us now. What does happen to the virtuous atheist when he dies? Matt10
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 18:12:06 GMT -5
Ok if you look at John chapter 12 verse 5 and 6 it says 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. This does show he had a love for money I didn't say you were wrong -- I just suggested that because of his role as keeper of the purse he was more vulnerable to the temptation. I have often wondered about that. When you have the responsibility for the finances of any group you are bound to give more thought to money, where it comes from & how it is used.
We only have an explanation for a motive after the fact. It was obvious that he didn't realize that Jesus might actually be killed.
He could easily have figured that Jesus would escape. After all, there were suppose to have been other instances where Jesus performed "miracles!"
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 18:20:01 GMT -5
I know all that. No one seems to get what I'm interested in knowing. Assuming there is a heaven and God has something to do with letting people in -- what does someone think are the chances of the second man (the righteous one) being surprised by ending up in heaven -- even though he didn't think there was such a place? 100% Given the assumptions. I would even bet the Bible supports this. I'm reasonably sure a lot of Christians believe this. And I'm sure there is scripture to support it. Do you think a lot of people have a problem reconciling this seemingly logical/moral idea with "must believe to be saved" kind of Christianity?
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stevo
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Post by stevo on Mar 31, 2015 18:20:54 GMT -5
Yes the first man comes under that category of the love of money is the root of all evil because he believes in God and the ways of God . The second man does not know God and as Mary hig said in one of her posts he won't be worried about what his actions are as he does not believe in God why would he want to be with him. I know all that. No one seems to get what I'm interested in knowing. Assuming there is a heaven and God has something to do with letting people in -- what does someone think are the chances of the second man (the righteous one) being surprised by ending up in heaven -- even though he didn't think there was such a place? You seem to be worried about this point whether someone who does not believe in God could go to heaven. I would be more worried about, am I doing Gods will so that he would even consider me. I believe we are on this earth as a test, take for instants you want to learn to drive, you have a driving instructor he tells you the wrong and the rights of the law of motoring then once you have learnt you are tested and you have the chance to pass. If you do pass you can then drive on your own for the rest of your life but you must obey the laws otherwise your licence will be taken away from you. But if you are not willing to learn you will never pass because you don't know what the examiner is going to ask you to do Yes the first man comes under that category of the love of money is the root of all evil because he believes in God and the ways of God . The second man does not know God and as Mary hig said in one of her posts he won't be worried about what his actions are as he does not believe in God why would he want to be with him. I know all that. No one seems to get what I'm interested in knowing. Assuming there is a heaven and God has something to do with letting people in -- what does someone think are the chances of the second man (the righteous one) being surprised by ending up in heaven -- even though he didn't think there was such a place?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 18:22:49 GMT -5
I don't care that you don't believe. I just said that atheism wasn't mentioned in the Bible, and you tried to tell me it was -- or I think that's what you were trying to do. What is so freaking silly about an unbeliever knowing what it says in the Bible? I didn't tell you it was. I merely told you what it said in the bible. And you already know what it says in the bible. You've read it. However what you appear to be seeking is an interpretation of what it says in the bible. And you can interpret it just as well as I or anyone else. So you get to decide. That's the beauty of the bible. The believer can interpret it in any way they like. So you can tell us now. What does happen to the virtuous atheist when he dies? Matt10 I don't know for sure. That's why I'm asking. It seems like most people don't know any more about this than I do.
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2015 18:24:16 GMT -5
I didn't say you were wrong -- I just suggested that because of his role as keeper of the purse he was more vulnerable to the temptation. So you can see then that having money does give you temptations so its better not to have it in abundance, like the man with the yacht he should be looking like Jesus was for the people that need help. Although we think that having money is better than being poor I would not swap my life to gain money to be poor of heart. I don't think this makes a lot of sense. I would think the more money you have the more you can help others and no one else has to help you. It seems this concept is just another area that people can judge others by. If you have lots of money, well then you're a bad person that has given in to temptation and you love money.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 18:30:13 GMT -5
I didn't say you were wrong -- I just suggested that because of his role as keeper of the purse he was more vulnerable to the temptation. I have often wondered about that. When you have the responsibility for the finances of any group you are bound to give more thought to money, where it comes from & how it is used.
We only have an explanation for a motive after the fact. It was obvious that he didn't realize that Jesus might actually be killed.
He could easily have figured that Jesus would escape. After all, there were suppose to have been other instances where Jesus performed "miracles!"
You're quite right. He discovered after the fact the gravity of what he had done -- according to the Bible. It would be interesting to know how he came to be chosen to carry the purse. I'm sure the ready explanation would be that Jesus was accommodating his own death by choosing the one most vulnerable to temptation, but all the apostles had their weaknesses. There are some other scriptural explanations for this whole scene, but they're not included in the Christian Bible.
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stevo
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Post by stevo on Mar 31, 2015 18:32:32 GMT -5
So you can see then that having money does give you temptations so its better not to have it in abundance, like the man with the yacht he should be looking like Jesus was for the people that need help. Although we think that having money is better than being poor I would not swap my life to gain money to be poor of heart. I don't think this makes a lot of sense. I would think the more money you have the more you can help others and no one else has to help you. It seems this concept is just another area that people can judge others by. If you have lots of money, well then you're a bad person that has given in to temptation and you love money. Look at all the famous people in this world with loads of money or business people in high jobs. I would say a lot of them they haven't even got the time to look at people in need
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 18:39:31 GMT -5
I was talking about heaven. Have you been there to confirm?!?
Do you have travel photos??I have many pictures of heaven in my heart, when I see my grandchildren smile, when I feel deep love for the people around me. When I feel at peace. When God shows me he's there. When I close my eyes and feel the heat of the sun warm the depths of my heart. When I'm up a mountain and the air flows through my hair. When I look around and see the beautiful things God has created. The flowers, the trees, the clear water in rivers, the moon and the stars I see God everywhere and in everything. Maryhig, I often feel these same things.
I also feel at peace
I close my eyes and feel the heat of the sun warm the depths of my very being, ('heart.) I feel the air flowing through my hair. I see the flowers, the trees, the clear water in rivers, the moon and the stars.
I enjoy all those feelings.
However, I don't have any necessity for a God to be the reason.
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