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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 13:17:54 GMT -5
You are redefining christianity. I am sure there are those who have a very definite idea of the requirements to be a christian. Without the redeeming aspects of the crucifixion how do you feel about the possibility of Jesus rising from the dead?Why have you decided to follow Christ as opposed to someone else? Jesus is risen in his people's hearts Because I believe he's God's son. And I believe he is the only person who has lived a perfect life before God. So I follow him!
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 13:20:31 GMT -5
Don't take such an uppity attitude. I asked you a question about what you believed, not what I believe. Don't you think if you're going to have any chance of converting someone you should answer their questions -- if you have an answer. All I want to know is what YOU believe happens to a perfectly moral and fine living non Christian when he/she dies. Do I sound uppity because I say that atheists say they don't believe in God so they won't worry about going to heaven? That's the truth! No. You sound uppity because you don't think it's necessary to answer a question about heaven for someone who doesn't believe in heaven -- like we're not worth hearing about it, so the question isn't iumportant. That's what's uppity.
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Post by rational on Mar 31, 2015 13:21:41 GMT -5
And if you read what I had written and what you were commenting on, I was talking about the word of God! When I wrote what I did about the atheist, it was because every time people of God say things about what an atheist will do if God does this or that they reply something like this "I don't believe God exists, So why will it apply to me I don't believe in a God" So how can God reward someone who denies he's there? If he doesn't exist to you, a reward from him wouldn't be of importance to you, would it? Because we are talking about a none existing "supernatural" being according to some. I've seen some insults to God on here. I hope and pray he forgives you all that have been involved! But then again you don't believe in him anyway! Perhaps heaven is just a state of mind. Because you believe it exists for you but not for me. Like Schrödinger's cat in a box, you don't know what is there until you "open the box".
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 13:23:58 GMT -5
Don't take such an uppity attitude. I asked you a question about what you believed, not what I believe. Don't you think if you're going to have any chance of converting someone you should answer their questions -- if you have an answer. All I want to know is what YOU believe happens to a perfectly moral and fine living non Christian when he/she dies. You know Bob, you tell me not to be uppity then talk to me in capital letters like I'm thick? I got what you said earlier, and if you look previous posts I have always said I hope that all get to go to heaven. Not just Christians! I had already told you what I think before you asked! I'm not being sarcastic. I actually want to know what YOU think -- NOTHING ELSE. If I didn't respect your thoughts do you think I would ask such a question? Non Christians aren't totally sarcastic, you know. Sometimes they really want to know the answers to some things. Sometimes they even ask questions that Christians don't think anyone needs to know, but who said there's anything wrong with wanting to know things that can be answered?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 13:28:30 GMT -5
Do I sound uppity because I say that atheists say they don't believe in God so they won't worry about going to heaven? That's the truth! No. You sound uppity because you don't think it's necessary to answer a question about heaven for someone who doesn't believe in heaven -- like we're not worth hearing about it, so the question isn't iumportant. That's what's uppity. Well you got me all wrong there, because I care about everyone! Atheists and all.! My door it's open to everyone. And it's not that I haven't answered your question about atheists going to heaven I have many times. I don't know who's going i'm not God. But I hope they do. Not that it matters to you, because you don't believe. I can't see why you keep asking me. You don't believe heaven exists, or do you? Maybe you're changing your mind because you keep talking about heaven alot! And if you knew me you would see I'm far from uppity!
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 13:29:39 GMT -5
Okay then - you don't know. You could have said that to begin with. Can you share, for the atheists' benefit, if you have any inkling at all that God will take the highest of moral and best of heart atheists into heaven? Or, barring that, what reason would your god have to keep them out? I did say this before you asked your last question? You know what, why would you be asking this question. Because a true atheist wouldn't be bothered about going to heaven because they don't believe God exists so why ask so many questions? Without me going through many posts, do you believe in God? There you go again. To begin with, I am not a true atheist Furthermore, who are you to be telling an atheist what they should be interested in hearing about? That's uppity, if not downright condescending. I doubt you have put as much effort into learning about these things as I have, and I'm not near finished asking questions. And people with your attitude about jokes about Jesus remind me of Muslims who find jokes about Muhammad disgusting. Satire is not preaching.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 13:33:10 GMT -5
I did say this before you asked your last question? You know what, why would you be asking this question. Because a true atheist wouldn't be bothered about going to heaven because they don't believe God exists so why ask so many questions? Without me going through many posts, do you believe in God? There you go again. To begin with, I am not a true atheist Furthermore, who are you to be telling an atheist what they should be interested in hearing about? That's uppity, if not downright condescending. I doubt you have put as much effort into learning about these things as I have, and I'm not near finished asking questions. And people with your attitude about jokes about Jesus remind me of Muslims who find jokes about Muhammad disgusting. Satire is not preaching. It's disgusting to me because I find it offensive, because I love God and Jesus suffered so much. I find it offensive joking about anyone that has been brutally murdered.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 13:34:52 GMT -5
Yes, I know what the Bible says. I wanted to know what you believe is the possibility of a perfectly upright atheist going to heaven. The Bible says nothing about atheists, and what is going to happen to them when they die. Who am I to judge that? Ive said a number of times that its the father who calls and the holy spirit who convicts people. The bible talks a lot about salvation/reconcilation with the father through Christ. With your theological knowledge Im surprised you are asking. Maybe you are looking for an arguement? I look at the bigger picture. .he loves the people he created including atheists. His mercys are new every morning. I'm coming to the conclusion that most of this kind of talk from Christians is not really what they believe but thoughts that just roll around in their mind -- questions that they haven't answered for themselves, but resent the fact that others are more interested in knowing the answers than they are. All this preaching by "Christians" about "KNOWING" they are saved, and then when asked about it .... they don't know.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 13:41:46 GMT -5
Who am I to judge that? Ive said a number of times that its the father who calls and the holy spirit who convicts people. The bible talks a lot about salvation/reconcilation with the father through Christ. With your theological knowledge Im surprised you are asking. Maybe you are looking for an arguement? I look at the bigger picture. .he loves the people he created including atheists. His mercys are new every morning. I'm coming to the conclusion that most of this kind of talk from Christians is not really what they believe but thoughts that just roll around in their mind -- questions that they haven't answered for themselves, but resent the fact that others are more interested in knowing the answers than they are. All this preaching by "Christians" about "KNOWING" they are saved, and then when asked about it .... they don't know. Bob I do know, I've proved God is there, I know because he's showed me. I'm not a liar, I'm too afraid to lie about that! I've had infallible proof!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 13:45:32 GMT -5
Who am I to judge that? Ive said a number of times that its the father who calls and the holy spirit who convicts people. The bible talks a lot about salvation/reconcilation with the father through Christ. With your theological knowledge Im surprised you are asking. Maybe you are looking for an arguement? I look at the bigger picture. .he loves the people he created including atheists. His mercys are new every morning. I'm coming to the conclusion that most of this kind of talk from Christians is not really what they believe but thoughts that just roll around in their mind -- questions that they haven't answered for themselves, but resent the fact that others are more interested in knowing the answers than they are. All this preaching by "Christians" about "KNOWING" they are saved, and then when asked about it .... they don't know. Well that's one thing I've never said, I've never said once I know I'm saved! Not once ever! I believe we have to endure to the end to be saved! Only God decides who gets into heaven.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 13:46:39 GMT -5
No. You sound uppity because you don't think it's necessary to answer a question about heaven for someone who doesn't believe in heaven -- like we're not worth hearing about it, so the question isn't iumportant. That's what's uppity. Well you got me all wrong there, because I care about everyone! Except that you don't care to answer their questions. Yes, I got the answer after I insisted. What the heck do you know about what matters to me? Who are you to tell me what matters to me, or even suggest what should matter to me? If it didn't matter to me do you think I'm so loose-minded that I just ask questions to rattle the cage? I think you've got your pre-conceptions about non-Christians up today. Maybe I do. Do you only answer questions for people who believe. I don't believe in Hinduism either, but I have never had a Hindu relative, or any other Hindu for that matter, tell me they won't bother to answer my questions because I don't believe like they do. Have you ever had an atheist tell you they won't answer your questions just because you aren't an atheist? How did you learn so much about atheists if you don't believe what they do -- maybe you asked some poorly-informed Christian who knows more about atheism than an atheist would. I can't change my mind talking to you. You don't want to tell me about it. I ask a question, and you tell me I don't want to know. You're not much of a salesman.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 13:51:20 GMT -5
I'm coming to the conclusion that most of this kind of talk from Christians is not really what they believe but thoughts that just roll around in their mind -- questions that they haven't answered for themselves, but resent the fact that others are more interested in knowing the answers than they are. All this preaching by "Christians" about "KNOWING" they are saved, and then when asked about it .... they don't know. Well that's one thing I've never said, I've never said once I know I'm saved! Not once ever! I believe we have to endure to the end to be saved! Only God decides who gets into heaven. I know you didn't say such a thing. You're not that kind of Christian. Heck, they don't mind telling anyone what they believe. What puzzles me about the "don't know" Christians is that they talk a lot, but end up not knowing anything more than their stock phrases from the Bible -- like quoting Shakespear and sounding authoritative about the unknowable.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 13:51:22 GMT -5
Well you got me all wrong there, because I care about everyone! Except that you don't care to answer their questions. Yes, I got the answer after I insisted. What the heck do you know about what matters to me? Who are you to tell me what matters to me, or even suggest what should matter to me? If it didn't matter to me do you think I'm so loose-minded that I just ask questions to rattle the cage? I think you've got your pre-conceptions about non-Christians up today. Maybe I do. Do you only answer questions for people who believe. I don't believe in Hinduism either, but I have never had a Hindu relative, or any other Hindu for that matter, tell me they won't bother to answer my questions because I don't believe like they do. Have you ever had an atheist tell you they won't answer your questions just because you aren't an atheist? How did you learn so much about atheists if you don't believe what they do -- maybe you asked some poorly-informed Christian who knows more about atheism than an atheist would. I can't change my mind talking to you. You don't want to tell me about it. I ask a question, and you tell me I don't want to know. You're not much of a salesman. Bob the reason I feel you do don't truly believe is because if you did then you wouldn't make jokes about Jesus suffering. I wouldn't make jokes about anyone being brutally murdered! And the question you have asked me I've answered!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 13:54:55 GMT -5
Well that's one thing I've never said, I've never said once I know I'm saved! Not once ever! I believe we have to endure to the end to be saved! Only God decides who gets into heaven. I know you didn't say such a thing. You're not that kind of Christian. Heck, they don't mind telling anyone what they believe. What puzzles me about the "don't know" Christians is that they talk a lot, but end up not knowing anything more than their stock phrases from the Bible -- like quoting Shakespear and sounding authoritative about the unknowable. The reason I quote from the Bible is because I believe the Bible to be the word of God and true! So yes i will quote from it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 13:58:46 GMT -5
Except that you don't care to answer their questions. Yes, I got the answer after I insisted. What the heck do you know about what matters to me? Who are you to tell me what matters to me, or even suggest what should matter to me? If it didn't matter to me do you think I'm so loose-minded that I just ask questions to rattle the cage? I think you've got your pre-conceptions about non-Christians up today. Maybe I do. Do you only answer questions for people who believe. I don't believe in Hinduism either, but I have never had a Hindu relative, or any other Hindu for that matter, tell me they won't bother to answer my questions because I don't believe like they do. Have you ever had an atheist tell you they won't answer your questions just because you aren't an atheist? How did you learn so much about atheists if you don't believe what they do -- maybe you asked some poorly-informed Christian who knows more about atheism than an atheist would. I can't change my mind talking to you. You don't want to tell me about it. I ask a question, and you tell me I don't want to know. You're not much of a salesman. Bob the reason I feel you do don't truly believe is because if you did then you wouldn't make jokes about Jesus suffering. I wouldn't make jokes about anyone being brutally murdered! You're perfectly entitled to feel that way. But no one has to live his life to satisfy others' feelings. If I were in my counseling mode, you'd get no satire from me. I know. You seem to think that I think you haven't answered my question -- I got your answer the first time you gave it. Actually, what I'm trying to do is explain to you how difficult it is to get you to answer questions respectfully.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 14:01:36 GMT -5
I know you didn't say such a thing. You're not that kind of Christian. Heck, they don't mind telling anyone what they believe. What puzzles me about the "don't know" Christians is that they talk a lot, but end up not knowing anything more than their stock phrases from the Bible -- like quoting Shakespear and sounding authoritative about the unknowable. The reason I quote from the Bible is because I believe the Bible to be the word of God and true! So yes i will quote from it. But you're not the Bible. I didn't ask about what the Bible says because I already know. If I asked you what you think about Greenpeace, would you quote the Bible? If you don't know, just say you don't know -- don't go off quoting the Bible just to have something to say.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 14:03:41 GMT -5
Bob the reason I feel you do don't truly believe is because if you did then you wouldn't make jokes about Jesus suffering. I wouldn't make jokes about anyone being brutally murdered! You're perfectly entitled to feel that way. But no one has to live his life to satisfy others' feelings. If I were in my counseling mode, you'd get no satire from me. I know. You seem to think that I think you haven't answered my question -- I got your answer the first time you gave it. Actually, what I'm trying to do is explain to you how difficult it is to get you to answer questions respectfully. You've only asked me one question, you'd think you had asked me a whole quiz load?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 31, 2015 14:05:39 GMT -5
The reason I quote from the Bible is because I believe the Bible to be the word of God and true! So yes i will quote from it. But you're not the Bible. I didn't ask about what the Bible says because I already know. If I asked you what you think about Greenpeace, would you quote the Bible? If you don't know, just say you don't know -- don't go off quoting the Bible just to have something to say. I don't even know what your talking about now! You've lost me!
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 14:17:15 GMT -5
But you're not the Bible. I didn't ask about what the Bible says because I already know. If I asked you what you think about Greenpeace, would you quote the Bible? If you don't know, just say you don't know -- don't go off quoting the Bible just to have something to say. I don't even know what your talking about now! You've lost me! I think I have it figured out now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 14:53:50 GMT -5
I'll simplify it for you. God will treat the highly virtuous non Christian according to the belief system of the believer. The answer to your question Is therefore dependent on who you ask it to. There is no singe universal answer to your question. Matt10 So are they all right, or is yours the only correct answer? What do you tell a "seeking soul"? Now you're not making sense to me. I don't believe I gave you the correct answer, I certainly didn't intend to. Indeed my point was quite to the contrary. The answer to your question depends on the beliefs of who you ask it to. There is no universal 'correct' answer. You appear to be speaking to me, a non-believer, in the manner of a believer (the seeking soul stuff), yet you appear to speak to those who are believers in the manner of a non-believer. The bible is perfectly clear on what the biblical god will do to the unbeliever (the lake of fire and all that) whether virtuous or not. Surely us non-believers should now be beyond asking questions of believers in circumstances where we know we will not accept the answers? Matt10
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stevo
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Post by stevo on Mar 31, 2015 15:04:29 GMT -5
How much money did Jesus have? how much money did the disciples have? None is the answer but they had the wealth of gold in there hearts being the holy spirit, which gave them powers to heal to give sight to the blind to give ears to hear to raise people from there beds. What was in the bag that Judas carried? Rational your right Judas did have the bag because for him it was needful to hold onto money, he had the love of money, he was like the man who had the yacht he felt good with his life because he was a Christian and had money to live his own life No other disciple had money look what happen to Judas because of that love of money he betrayed the son of God as we can when we think of our own lusts before we see the needs in others. How much money did Jesus have? how much money did the disciples have? None is the answer but they had the wealth of gold in there hearts being the holy spirit, which gave them powers to heal to give sight to the blind to give ears to hear to raise people from there beds. What was in the bag that Judas carried?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 15:22:52 GMT -5
So are they all right, or is yours the only correct answer? What do you tell a "seeking soul"? Now you're not making sense to me. I don't believe I gave you the correct answer, I certainly didn't intend to. Did you think I was looking for the wrong answer. I had no problem with the answer you gave -- I just needed more clarification.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 15:25:31 GMT -5
What was in the bag that Judas carried? Rational your right Judas did have the bag because for him it was needful to hold onto money, he had the love of money, he was like the man who had the yacht he felt good with his life because he was a Christian and had money to live his own life No other disciple had money look what happen to Judas because of that love of money he betrayed the son of God as we can when we think of our own lusts before we see the needs in others. What was in the bag that Judas carried? The fact that Judas was holding the bag of money is no indication that he had a love of money. We can logically assume that he was the one carrying the communal purse. We don't have any record of how he got the money to begin with.
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Post by emy on Mar 31, 2015 15:52:20 GMT -5
Yes, I know what the Bible says. I wanted to know what you believe is the possibility of a perfectly upright atheist going to heaven. The Bible says nothing about atheists, and what is going to happen to them when they die. The Bible says nothing about atheists? Atheists are unbelievers, right? Check a concordance for what the Bible says about unbelief. (Did you have a senior moment?)
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Post by bubbles on Mar 31, 2015 15:52:32 GMT -5
Who am I to judge that? Ive said a number of times that its the father who calls and the holy spirit who convicts people. The bible talks a lot about salvation/reconcilation with the father through Christ. With your theological knowledge Im surprised you are asking. Maybe you are looking for an arguement? I look at the bigger picture. .he loves the people he created including atheists. His mercys are new every morning. I'm coming to the conclusion that most of this kind of talk from Christians is not really what they believe but thoughts that just roll around in their mind -- questions that they haven't answered for themselves, but resent the fact that others are more interested in knowing the answers than they are. All this preaching by "Christians" about "KNOWING" they are saved, and then when asked about it .... they don't know. If you are judging my position thats fine for you to do that. I think what you miss about the concept of the bornagain experience is the spiritual link. The relationship /friendship/love between a believer and the holy spirit. Its like you having a longtime friend over time you begin to know them. Because of time you have had with them in a 2 way communication. You dont know everything about them but most things. You also have many impressions because of relationship what they are like. You protect them when people speak against them bz you know them differently than a person who has never been close to them like you have. To suggest that anyones mind just 'rolls around' is kinda off. If anything my mind dances. I do roll my eyes at hidious comments like the one you just made. You must be referring to my comment about having confidence that Im saved. Would you like me to show you scriptures on that. I do believe strongly in the word being active. Also doing its work. Working together with the holy spirit to accomplish what the lord set out for it too do. My opinion is I make you uncomfortable with what I believe. I like maryhig have proved the lord over my lifetime. In him being faithful to me in thousands of ways. Ive been very open about my christian walk. Ive also explained how it all works. Ive asked probably more questions you have even thought of. So dont insult my intelligence. If i say I dont know to a question. Then that is still an answer. Frankly by your comments it looked to me like you were trying to provoke us. The only time I judge an atheist is when they get nasty/cruel/ or belittling. As for preaching? Ive never been aware of preaching to anyone on here. I think you assume that.
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stevo
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Post by stevo on Mar 31, 2015 15:53:15 GMT -5
Rational your right Judas did have the bag because for him it was needful to hold onto money, he had the love of money, he was like the man who had the yacht he felt good with his life because he was a Christian and had money to live his own life No other disciple had money look what happen to Judas because of that love of money he betrayed the son of God as we can when we think of our own lusts before we see the needs in others. The fact that Judas was holding the bag of money is no indication that he had a love of money. We can logically assume that he was the one carrying the communal purse. We don't have any record of how he got the money to begin with. Ok if you look at John chapter 12 verse 5 and 6 it says 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. This does show he had a love for money
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 16:03:53 GMT -5
Now you're not making sense to me. I don't believe I gave you the correct answer, I certainly didn't intend to. Did you think I was looking for the wrong answer. I had no problem with the answer you gave -- I just needed more clarification. There are no right or wrong answers irrespective of what type of answer you are looking for. This is not an examination. Rightness or wrongness is simply a matter of perspective of the believer. I don't know what type of answer you are looking for but I'm merely pointing out the futility of seeking a 'correct' answer from those who believe entirely differently than you do. That is the reason that believers don't seek the 'correct' answers from the likes of me and you. Matt10
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 31, 2015 16:15:16 GMT -5
Yes, I know what the Bible says. I wanted to know what you believe is the possibility of a perfectly upright atheist going to heaven. The Bible says nothing about atheists, and what is going to happen to them when they die. The Bible says nothing about atheists? Atheists are unbelievers, right? Check a concordance for what the Bible says about unbelief. (Did you have a senior moment?) In the Bible, unbelievers are those who do not believe in the God of the Jews or the God of the Christians -- they are not atheists. Atheism was not recognized at the time the Bible was written. Such unbelievers just believed in other gods.
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