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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 18:37:48 GMT -5
A friend of mine got married last month. She informed me yesterday she found her husband was having an affair, already. After a confrontation with him she informed me all was well, and both renewed their vows of "unconditional love." I can see where that marriage is heading.
Love IS conditional, be it human or spiritual love.
I notice it mentioned often on this board, "unconditional love." I am not sure what proof text people use to support this notion. In the bible, as opposed to other religious texts, God's love is absolutely conditional. Half of everything Jesus is recorded as having said concerns the conditions, requirements, wants, expectations, rules and covenants of His love.
Some would say that Jesus loved even those Jews who didn't conform to His expectations. That might be so on some philosophical level - but as was shown by history, such a "love" didn't avail the Jews when they were destroyed.
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Post by placid-void on Mar 27, 2015 19:33:28 GMT -5
One thought Bert. If you have a chance, some day perhaps you could visit a dog shelter and invite a puppy to come live with you. If you are kind and attentive to your house guest, in just a short little while I predict you will come to fully understand unconditional love. It is truly a wonderful experience and often can be a learning experience as well. Just a thought, but I hope useful.
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Post by Mary on Mar 27, 2015 20:13:17 GMT -5
God's loves us in spite of our failings.
Unconditional love......I think they get it from this verse.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
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gustaf
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Post by gustaf on Mar 27, 2015 21:11:37 GMT -5
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bert, Sounds like you have a hard heart. Jesus knew the Truth and he said" Forgive them for they know not what they do" Because he understood us better than we understand ourselves. His Love is truly unconditional. Our flesh will blind us again and again. Satan never takes his foot off the gas. He despises the Truth. He wants us to believe we are not worthy. But our savior Jesus Christ WAS and IS WORTHY !!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 21:22:29 GMT -5
Gustaf, yes, Jesus did ask God to forgive those who crucified Him. It doesn't say that God complied. When Jesus said the enemy would lay seige to Jerusalem and kill even their very children within its walls, did He have a hard heart? Did God have a hard heart in destroying the Jews? Or destroying nations or even, in the flood, destroying humanity? There ARE conditions to receiving God's love, and it is that we must love Him also, and show it through our obedience.
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Post by snow on Mar 27, 2015 21:35:16 GMT -5
I would have to agree with Bert. The Christian God definitely does not love unconditionally. The flood story alone should make that point loud and clear!
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 27, 2015 21:45:09 GMT -5
Gustaf, yes, Jesus did ask God to forgive those who crucified Him. It doesn't say that God complied. When Jesus said the enemy would lay seige to Jerusalem and killed even their very children within its walls, did He have a hard heart? Did God have a hard heart in destroying the Jews? Or destroying nations or even, in the flood, destroying humanity? There ARE conditions to receiving God's love, and it is that we must love Him also, and show it through our obedience. I believe Bert may be right on this one!
What good does it do to have a god/goddess if he/she doesn't control what one does?
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gustaf
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Post by gustaf on Mar 27, 2015 22:27:01 GMT -5
God is beyond us. We were born to die. He knows that. We fear that. God is perfection. Without God we are dead. If God lets us die does it mean he does not like us? Does it mean we fell short? NO. We are part of his creation, just like the sharks how would eat us and so forth. We are the apex of the food chair folks. God loves you and Jesus is the proof. Spend some time away from the herd and get to know your creator!!
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 27, 2015 22:57:26 GMT -5
God is beyond us. We were born to die. He knows that. We fear that. God is perfection. Without God we are dead. If God lets us die does it mean he does not like us? Does it mean we fell short? NO. We are part of his creation, just like the sharks how would eat us and so forth. We are the apex of the food chair folks. God loves you and Jesus is the proof.Spend some time away from the herd and get to know your creator!! I agree that people fear death, -that is why they seek to extend this life by believing that there is an 'afterlife.'
It is understandable that they want to believe that, but that doesn't mean that an 'afterlife' actually exists.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 0:11:35 GMT -5
Gustaf, yes, Jesus did ask God to forgive those who crucified Him. It doesn't say that God complied. When Jesus said the enemy would lay seige to Jerusalem and kill even their very children within its walls, did He have a hard heart? Did God have a hard heart in destroying the Jews? Or destroying nations or even, in the flood, destroying humanity? There ARE conditions to receiving God's love, and it is that we must love Him also, and show it through our obedience. So which comes first? Us loving God or Him loving us? Do you think there's anything you could possibly do to earn more of God's love than what He showed you, when you were His enemy, weak, ungodly and a sinner, and He came to earth and died for you (Romans 5:6-8). God's love is never a response to anything you do!!! Also read 1 John 4:9-10 and Ephesians 2:4-5. If you believe God is holy and His standard is perfection, just how close to that do you have to try to get to that perfection through your "obedience" before He starts loving you? You said you aren't sure what proof texts people use to find the concept of unconditional love in the gospel story. What texts can you come up with to prove that God's love IS conditional, showing what specific things a person must do to earn it? And how do you feel you do at earning God's love? Would you say you've done enough to earn it? More than some others perhaps? Would you say that makes you saved? The gospel story is VERY much one of unconditional love!!! If you don't believe that, you are negating the work of Jesus on the cross and calling it meaningless. If a man is drowning and someone swims in and saves him...the drowning man didn't do anything to earn/deserve that and no one would have expected him to have to do something. Scripture tells us we all sin and fall short and that the wages of sin is death. But Jesus solved that problem...not because of anything we did or could ever do, but simply because we were dying and He loved us. So He died FOR us so we never have to.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 28, 2015 1:12:54 GMT -5
I would say extending life makes no difference if the person believes there is an afterlife or not. In fact, I would say that those who believe in the afterlife as a positive thing are less likely to care about extending life than those who do not believe. Being in a state of non existence, maybe a reason why some people want to extend their life. That is a very good point, Mary.
It is hard to explain what I meant. I didn't mean extending our physical life here on earth.
Mankind has always been optimistic. People believe that the future will be better than the present. It is what keeps us going.
It is that optimism that keeps people believing that the future will be better, -even to the extension of a better life beyond their death.
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Post by ellie on Mar 28, 2015 7:02:22 GMT -5
A friend of mine got married last month. She informed me yesterday she found her husband was having an affair, already. After a confrontation with him she informed me all was well, and both renewed their vows of "unconditional love." I can see where that marriage is heading. Love IS conditional, be it human or spiritual love. I notice it mentioned often on this board, "unconditional love." I am not sure what proof text people use to support this notion. In the bible, as opposed to other religious texts, God's love is absolutely conditional. Half of everything Jesus is recorded as having said concerns the conditions, requirements, wants, expectations, rules and covenants of His love. Some would say that Jesus loved even those Jews who didn't conform to His expectations. That might be so on some philosophical level - but as was shown by history, such a "love" didn't avail the Jews when they were destroyed. IMO God loves unconditionally. There are texts that suggest that various authors of the bible supported that concept also. As you are thinking of adultery have a think about Hosea. God orders Hosea to love Gomer unconditionally. As the story goes Gomer didn’t return to Hosea but Hosea bought her back for a slave’s price. I can’t imagine there would have been too much attractive left about Gomer at that point. Hosea loving Gomer regardless is IMO illustrative of the love of God. Unconditional.
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2015 11:10:50 GMT -5
The fact that Christians believe there is such a place as hell that you can go to if you don't do everything God wants you to do right, confirms that the Christian God does not love unconditionally. The fact that he could drown 99.9% of his creation because mankind wasn't doing what he wanted them to do, confirms that the Christian God does not love unconditionally. If he did, no one would go to hell and he wouldn't have killed almost all of his creation. Also, he would never have had to 'sacrifice' his son for our sins, if there wasn't anything we could do wrong. We are not loved unconditionally. That does not describe that God at all. There are hoards of conditions and you'd better make sure you meet these conditions or this all loving, all forgiving, all powerful God won't be able to prevent you from going to the hell that he created for everyone that didn't meet his conditions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 11:24:33 GMT -5
One thought Bert. If you have a chance, some day perhaps you could visit a dog shelter and invite a puppy to come live with you. If you are kind and attentive to your house guest, in just a short little while I predict you will come to fully understand unconditional love. It is truly a wonderful experience and often can be a learning experience as well. Just a thought, but I hope useful. Ah yes, you have chosen the right animal, man's best friend, I don't think that it would work with a rattle snake though. No love there at all let alone unconditional love. Just teasing.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 28, 2015 11:54:10 GMT -5
Love IS conditional, be it human or spiritual love. I notice it mentioned often on this board, "unconditional love." I am not sure what proof text people use to support this notion. In the bible, as opposed to other religious texts, God's love is absolutely conditional. Half of everything Jesus is recorded as having said concerns the conditions, requirements, wants, expectations, rules and covenants of His love. I think we can conceive of unconditional love only to the extent that we ourselves are capable of it. That would go for the Bible writers too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 12:10:04 GMT -5
Unconditional love is supposed to be love that is given to another without any conditions or strings attached., come what may. Conditional love on the other hand usually has strings attached. Human nature being what it is, I believe that unconditional love must be a fairly scarce commodity.
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Post by Gene on Mar 28, 2015 12:31:36 GMT -5
One thought Bert. If you have a chance, some day perhaps you could visit a dog shelter and invite a puppy to come live with you. If you are kind and attentive to your house guest, in just a short little while I predict you will come to fully understand unconditional love. It is truly a wonderful experience and often can be a learning experience as well. Just a thought, but I hope useful. Just wondering whether the first person to write "My god loves me unconditionally" was dyslexic.
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Post by placid-void on Mar 28, 2015 12:54:10 GMT -5
Pondering the topic of unconditional love, I begin to think that the more I can get out of "horizontal time" (past, present, future) and the more I can get into "vertical time" (NOW, this moment) the more likely I am to get some appreciation of unconditional love.
Every time I attempt to think of a condition to attach to a feeling that I am having this moment, this moment is gone.
It seems to me that conditions are the products of endless "what should have been"(s) or "what ought to be"(s)
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Post by placid-void on Mar 28, 2015 13:16:34 GMT -5
I think that the OP may help me understand a little better the difficulty I have with organized religions.
Without asserting either the existence or non-existence of a "God", it seems to me that every time I ask myself any of the questions; "Who", "What", "When", "Where" or "How" about God, I have completely missed the point. Laboring over ancient texts to find the answer to any of these questions also seems to me to miss the point.
If I don't feel compassion, NOW, within this moment, then what is the point?
If I don't feel love, NOW, within this moment, then what is the point?
If "God" is about some original sin (past) or about some quid pro quo deal for "eternal life" (future), I think I have missed the point.
I certainly understand getting together with other like minded folk to marvel about our experiences and I understand exploring the ancient texts to ponder and appreciate the experiences of others throughout time. But to substitute either of those activities for the simple wonder of existing within a single moment, hold no appeal for me.
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gustaf
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Post by gustaf on Mar 28, 2015 16:08:24 GMT -5
First John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love cast out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fear is not made perfect in love.
Matthew 5:44 “ But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”
Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 28, 2015 17:09:11 GMT -5
First John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love cast out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fear is not made perfect in love. Matthew 5:44 “ But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
My question is what does the "reward" consist of?
Also there is a question of when is one expecting their "reward"; in this life or an 'afterlife?'
Another thought is why does one even need a "reward" for being a kind & caring person? How does that that affect one's actions?
That directly concerns their motivation for being concerned about others.
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gustaf
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Post by gustaf on Mar 28, 2015 17:24:45 GMT -5
I take it you are not a Christian dmmichgood ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 28, 2015 17:40:10 GMT -5
I take it you are not a Christian dmmichgood ? I was a "Christian" for 40 -50 years of my life, gustaf, therefore I know all the Christian rhetoric.
I could have regurgitated them complete with bible verses to back them up.
Since then, I have learned to consider what do they really mean.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 28, 2015 19:24:39 GMT -5
Pondering the topic of unconditional love, I begin to think that the more I can get out of "horizontal time" (past, present, future) and the more I can get into "vertical time" (NOW, this moment) the more likely I am to get some appreciation of unconditional love. Every time I attempt to think of a condition to attach to a feeling that I am having this moment, this moment is gone. It seems to me that conditions are the products of endless "what should have been"(s) or "what ought to be"(s) I’ve never had much success at intellectualizing love, much less “unconditional love”. But this (and your following post) helps. A lot. In trying to explain what it means to me to be “close to God”, I have described it this way in the past: “It means dropping judgements of myself and judgements of other people. It means dropping thoughts of the future and of the past, and just standing here, NOW, in the silence (stillness) that is the ground of my own being.” “Love” is a pretty imprecise term, especially in the English language. Other languages tend to be much more honest and nuanced when it comes to expressions of “love”. I’ve often thought that “unconditional love” is something that most human beings experience only fleetingly. Sometimes, when I have been sitting quietly with someone (or thinking of them) and there is no needing, no wanting in me, just acceptance for all they are, I have felt my heart open and have wondered if I am approaching unconditional love. If you are even a moderately healthy human being, there are some things that are deal breakers (and should be) in human relationships. I would think unconditional love is a possibility only if you have nothing to lose or if you have no sense (at least momentarily) of “self”. For someone who does not mind using the “God” terminology, this begs some questions: Do you suppose God has anything to lose? Do you suppose he has a sense of self? Is God really found anywhere but in vertical time? My brain has always short-circuited on declarations of “God is Love”, as in “What does THAT really mean?” But maybe it’s not so far-fetched after all.
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Post by snow on Mar 28, 2015 20:11:48 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing that needs to end loving someone. You may have to remove yourself from their lives in order to be safe, but that doesn't mean that you ever have to quit loving them. That's how I see it anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 21:17:48 GMT -5
I take it you are not a Christian dmmichgood ? I was a "Christian" for 40 -50 years of my life, gustaf, therefore I know all the Christian rhetoric.
I could have regurgitated them complete with bible verses to back them up.
Since then, I have learned to consider what do they really mean.
Dmmichgood, I hope by this statement you don't mean this fashionable "explaining away" we have been going through with Feminist exegesis; Postmodernist criticism; Socio-scientific criticism; Psychological criticism; Narrative criticism; Rhetorical criticism; Canonical criticism; Redaction criticism; Form criticism; Source criticism and Textual criticism.
These theorizers remind me of JF Kennedy conspiratorial writings. JFK conspirators all took a tiny part of the Warren Commission's report and flogged it to death - without any concessin or reference to anything else in that report.
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Post by ellie on Mar 28, 2015 23:32:21 GMT -5
The fact that Christians believe there is such a place as hell that you can go to if you don't do everything God wants you to do right, confirms that the Christian God does not love unconditionally. The fact that he could drown 99.9% of his creation because mankind wasn't doing what he wanted them to do, confirms that the Christian God does not love unconditionally. If he did, no one would go to hell and he wouldn't have killed almost all of his creation. Also, he would never have had to 'sacrifice' his son for our sins, if there wasn't anything we could do wrong. We are not loved unconditionally. That does not describe that God at all. There are hoards of conditions and you'd better make sure you meet these conditions or this all loving, all forgiving, all powerful God won't be able to prevent you from going to the hell that he created for everyone that didn't meet his conditions. Not all persons identifying as Christian believe in hell or that God would sacrifice his/her son for sins. Perhaps all these conditions have been created and imposed by mankind rather than by God.
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Post by rational on Mar 28, 2015 23:44:02 GMT -5
Every time I attempt to think of a condition to attach to a feeling that I am having this moment, this moment is gone. Sounds like a variation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
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