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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 23:27:15 GMT -5
Emy, this is only written in response to your question as to what I understand (not my interpretation, for as a linguist even paid to interpret, I have never sought anything but to be accurate, even having my interpretation stand in an international court of law) about this matter of first/last last/first as referred to by my Lord and Savior, who I know as Yahu'shuah.
Writing entirely from memory, I seem to recall three times when He used this reference. In each occasion, the lesson I learned from the context is a matter of total equality for all in His realm. Thinking as I try to do, and encourage others, " and you are THERE" it is easy for me to see wealth, even taking authority equals greatness and the best set aside for those having such, the lesson He was teaching became quite clear for me.
As they walked alongside the road, He heard/perceived their conversation about who would become greatest among them, and so He taught them the way up is the way down, as servant to others, ending with this matter of first/last least/ greatest.
Another time if my memory serves me correctly, one was unable to accept the concept my Lord was teaching, and again the Lord finished with this same equality lesson.
Yet another time, again my memory serving me correctly he spoke of "a lord" hiring laborers for a penny that day. He added help late in the day for the same wage. Once again finishing with the same lesson. Not once that I know of was this likened to any existence in that which comes hereafter. This is in opposition to what was related about the return on talents given, and the false accusation of that lazy unprofitable servant who convicted himself by his own mouth.
Thus, I conclude it has to do with the here and now and how each one stands before their God and none having an advantage: that the way to greatness is growing down, not up, with all in His realm merely promised the penny, which for me is everlasting life. Indeed I say, I have been an unprofitable servant, doing only that which has been my duty to do.
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Post by emy on Mar 23, 2015 23:47:49 GMT -5
Thanks, Dennis. I will look at the context of when he spoke that more closely.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 3:08:58 GMT -5
i must decrease for Him to increase
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 5:55:41 GMT -5
Those who are the "least" shall be the "greatest" in the kingdom. But implicitly, those who aren't the least shall not be the greatest.
John the Baptist wasn't equal to the prophets - he was greater than them all. And Jesus wasn't equal to John, He was greater still. I don't see "equality" here.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 7:32:54 GMT -5
You don't understand one bit what I expressed, do you, Bert? Yes, I know you frequently attempt to compare apples with oranges, and indeed that is your right. G'day.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 8:28:46 GMT -5
Not only is there no 'equality' in heaven (only that some are equally 'saved' or 'unsaved') but God had His favorites. Recall that Peter, James and John were Jesus' favorites. Equality isn't a word from the bible but from our own secular society. Recall the parable of the man who had ten talents and another who had one - the master took the talent from the man who had the one and gave it to he who had ten already. And the people murmured about this.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 24, 2015 12:11:42 GMT -5
Hey Bert, I've always found that account interesting. - Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance.
Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. - Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have,
even what they have will be taken from them. - Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more;
whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.
And people wonder if Jesus was a socialist!
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Post by What Hat on Mar 24, 2015 13:17:20 GMT -5
Hey Bert, I've always found that account interesting. - Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance.
Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. - Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have,
even what they have will be taken from them. - Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more;
whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.
And people wonder if Jesus was a socialist! There is no other way to interpret Matthew 20: 1 to 18 than that Jesus was a socialist. I mean, a guy shows up for a few minutes of the day, and gets full wages. What could be more socialist than that? It's actually really Communist, when you get down to it. Now that you understand that it's a Communist system, you can properly interpret Matthew 13 which you quoted above. If you're in the Communist party, meaning that you understand the liberty and joy that is in Christ, you're going to get rewarded. Yes, if you have some you'll get more, and if you have more, you'll get even more. That's how it works in the Communist party. I know that might sound terribly unfair. The one worker in Matthew 20 complained about it, but he just didn't get it. When it comes to the Spirit it does not matter if one person has more than another, because it's all there for everyone, as much as you want. What did not work in Russia, works very well when it comes to heavenly things. There's joy and to share, and no burden is there.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 24, 2015 13:34:44 GMT -5
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" - Louis Blanc/Karl Marx
That communist/socialist slogan is the exact opposite of the verses I quoted.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 24, 2015 14:10:24 GMT -5
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" - Louis Blanc/Karl Marx That communist/socialist slogan is the exact opposite of the verses I quoted. No it's not at all. To each according to his need (Marx) = Whoever has will be given more (Jesus). Whoever truly understands his need has the greatest need. He will be given according to his need, and he will be given more than anyone else. From each according to his ability (Marx) = And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (Jesus) Instead of giving out of an obligation, we give out of grace, returning to God what he has given us, which is our ability, our God-given capability, really, our all. The basic idea of Marx is that your basic needs are supplied so you are freed from stress and want, and you give according to your ability to give. This is very Biblical. Consider the sparrows and how God takes care of them. They don't worry about getting more and more the way we do. With Godliness and contentment is great gain. That's the basic idea of Marx "to each according to his need". And the second idea is that you give out of your ability, as opposed to paying minimal taxes (in a spiritual sense) you realise it all came from God so you give it back to God. Unfortunately, these lofty ideals don't really work here on Earth, but as Christians it is what we try to live by.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 24, 2015 15:42:47 GMT -5
Never thought of it that way.
It didn't work that way with communism Russia though, the poor became the starving poor to the point of millions dying. The fat cats never starved, they just threw their chicken bones out the train windows for the the starving crowds to fight over. I'm not making that up - it's in I Chose Freedom...
Or like in Animal Farm, everyone's equal but some are more equal than others.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 24, 2015 15:50:09 GMT -5
When my dad taught Animal Farm he would average the individual grades and give everyone in the class the average grade. The A students didn't need an A to pass but the F students did need a D to pass. One time the good students in one class shut down to the point the class average grade was failing. He had to average that class with another class so the average grade was a passing one.
The good students didn't like sharing their grades.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 24, 2015 22:00:08 GMT -5
Never thought of it that way. It didn't work that way with communism Russia though, the poor became the starving poor to the point of millions dying. The fat cats never starved, they just threw their chicken bones out the train windows for the the starving crowds to fight over. I'm not making that up - it's in I Chose Freedom... Or like in Animal Farm, everyone's equal but some are more equal than others. Agreed. What doesn't work in the world can only work in heaven. That's our problem as followers of Christ. We have the vision, but there are so many things wrong down here. Still we can be lights and we can be salt, but to think that the whole world will work the way Jesus wants us to work? It's not going to happen in lifetime. But I do think the ideals of Communism and the ideals of Jesus are not so very far apart. Look at how friends work together at convention. Would I push for Communism as a political system? No way. But I will always advocate a little more compassion in how we do things.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 24, 2015 22:10:17 GMT -5
When my dad taught Animal Farm he would average the individual grades and give everyone in the class the average grade. The A students didn't need an A to pass but the F students did need a D to pass. One time the good students in one class shut down to the point the class average grade was failing. He had to average that class with another class so the average grade was a passing one. The good students didn't like sharing their grades. I used to hate group work because it always brought my mark down. And there was often a laggard in the group who would ride on the coattails of everyone else. But too much competitiveness can be a bad thing. In the real world we do better if we can work harmoniously as a team. In the small company I own I see competitiveness between employees on occasion, but it seems petty and irrelevant. The real challenge is for the company as a whole to succeed and then everyone benefits. One employee trying to outdo another for the sake of his or her ego doesn't get us anywhere. We often have to work with techs at our customers who are less than stellar, let's just say. It frustrates our guys, but you can't get into finger pointing and one upmanship. If they fail, then it bring us all down, and generally no one at the higher levels of management is interested in why. So if they're not doing something they should be doing we just try and pick up the slack. Failure, and being able to say "it wasn't my fault", is not an option. Inherently that's not how people tend to work though. There's a really interesting book by John Ruskin called "Unto this Last" which tries to apply some of Jesus' principles to economic and business life in the 19th century. It's not quite socialism but part way there. Wikipedia has a brief entry on the book.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 25, 2015 2:54:03 GMT -5
When my dad taught Animal Farm he would average the individual grades and give everyone in the class the average grade. The A students didn't need an A to pass but the F students did need a D to pass. One time the good students in one class shut down to the point the class average grade was failing. He had to average that class with another class so the average grade was a passing one. The good students didn't like sharing their grades. I used to hate group work because it always brought my mark down. And there was often a laggard in the group who would ride on the coattails of everyone else. But too much competitiveness can be a bad thing. In the real world we do better if we can work harmoniously as a team. In the small company I own I see competitiveness between employees on occasion, but it seems petty and irrelevant. The real challenge is for the company as a whole to succeed and then everyone benefits. One employee trying to outdo another for the sake of his or her ego doesn't get us anywhere. We often have to work with techs at our customers who are less than stellar, let's just say. It frustrates our guys, but you can't get into finger pointing and one upmanship. If they fail, then it bring us all down, and generally no one at the higher levels of management is interested in why. So if they're not doing something they should be doing we just try and pick up the slack. Failure, and being able to say "it wasn't my fault", is not an option. Inherently that's not how people tend to work though. There's a really interesting book by John Ruskin called "Unto this Last" which tries to apply some of Jesus' principles to economic and business life in the 19th century. It's not quite socialism but part way there. Wikipedia has a brief entry on the book. Thanks, What Hat! That sounds like a winner! Unto This Last is an essay and book on economy by John Ruskin, first published in December 1860 in the monthly journal Cornhill Magazine in four articles. Ruskin says himself that these articles were "very violently criticized", forcing the publisher to stop the publication after four months. Subscribers sent protest letters. But Ruskin countered the attack and published the four articles in a book in May 1862.
The title is a quotation from the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard.
I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
— Matthew 20 (King James Version)
The "last" are the eleventh hour labourers, who are paid as if they had worked the entire day. Rather than discuss the religious meaning of the parable, whereby the eleventh hour labourers would be death-bed converts, or the peoples of the world who come late to religion, Ruskin looks at the social and economic implications, discussing issues such as who should receive a living wage. This essay is very critical of capitalist economists of the 18th and 19th centuries. In this sense, Ruskin is a precursor of social economy. Because the essay also attacks the destructive effects of industrialism upon the natural world, some historians have seen it as anticipating the Green Movement.[1]
from wiki
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Post by What Hat on Mar 26, 2015 17:41:09 GMT -5
When my dad taught Animal Farm he would average the individual grades and give everyone in the class the average grade. The A students didn't need an A to pass but the F students did need a D to pass. One time the good students in one class shut down to the point the class average grade was failing. He had to average that class with another class so the average grade was a passing one. The good students didn't like sharing their grades. I was thinking a bit further about your 'Animal Farm' comment a bit more. Isn't the point of it that even though we may try to have a system where we are all equal, in time the old pettiness, power tripping and politics re-asserts itself. Only perhaps worse. That's certainly what happened in Russia. The line, "we are all equal, but some are more equal than others" is absolutely brilliant. The idea of equality looses its essence, and becomes just a badge -- some have more of this 'equal' thing than others do. It's a problem in any system of ideals. People take them and use them as to create hierarchies, with those on the outside, those on the inside at various stages and levels. In doing so, the essence of the ideals is lost.
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Post by Lee on Mar 27, 2015 1:33:02 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 4:59:21 GMT -5
That "death bed conversion" ought to be treated with a load of scepticism. I suspect the "11th hour" refers to people who come to God later in life - not the "one minute to midnight" brigade. As I see it, to seek God seconds before meeting Him is really expecting to have it both ways - live a proflicate life now and disregard God, and expect God will want to spend eternity with you.
Whathat wrote "a guy shows up for a few minutes of the day, and gets full wages. What could be more socialist than that? It's actually really Communist, when you get down to it." Now that you understand that it's a Communist system, you can properly interpret Matthew 13..."
I am struggling to think what logic fallacy this is. Can anyone help?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 27, 2015 5:26:29 GMT -5
When my dad taught Animal Farm he would average the individual grades and give everyone in the class the average grade. The A students didn't need an A to pass but the F students did need a D to pass. One time the good students in one class shut down to the point the class average grade was failing. He had to average that class with another class so the average grade was a passing one. The good students didn't like sharing their grades. I was thinking a bit further about your 'Animal Farm' comment a bit more. Isn't the point of it that even though we may try to have a system where we are all equal, in time the old pettiness, power tripping and politics re-asserts itself. Only perhaps worse. That's certainly what happened in Russia. The line, "we are all equal, but some are more equal than others" is absolutely brilliant. The idea of equality looses its essence, and becomes just a badge -- some have more of this 'equal' thing than others do. It's a problem in any system of ideals. People take them and use them as to create hierarchies, with those on the outside, those on the inside at various stages and levels. In doing so, the essence of the ideals is lost. I don't see it as anyone finding God at the end of their life but God finding them. In that parable the men had been there all day waiting to be hired, but had not been hired. Some people can be searching a long time but have not seen God till late on in their lives but their hearts have always been open to him it just wasn't their time. If the men in the parable had of gotten fed up of waiting and had given up earlier, they would never have been hired. So just the fact that they had been willing got them in. They also didn't know what they would receive, the men who agreed with the penny a day started early knowing their reward. These people were grateful with whatever they got. They were just glad to be hired. Just for having the heart to wait all day then to be grateful to get whatever was given to them made them worthy to receive what the workers received who worked all day! It doesn't matter who's first and last it matters that God blesses us and we get in. I don't care where I am. If I get in I'm blessed. And the thief on the cross was blessed to get in in the last hours of his life because he was willing and believed when it was his time! There is hope for everyone if we are willing. That "death bed conversion" ought to be treated with a load of scepticism. I suspect the "11th hour" refers to people who come to God later in life - not the "one minute to midnight" brigade. As I see it, to seek God seconds before meeting Him is really expecting to have it both ways - live a proflicate life now and disregard God, and expect God will want to spend eternity with you. Whathat wrote "a guy shows up for a few minutes of the day, and gets full wages. What could be more socialist than that? It's actually really Communist, when you get down to it." Now that you understand that it's a Communist system, you can properly interpret Matthew 13..." I am struggling to think what logic fallacy this is. Can anyone help?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 10:31:51 GMT -5
We were in Sweden when word came of a true death bed "confession." We (Ylva, the children, and myself, we very glad to hear of it. However, when the new and younger than myself overseer there heard us expressing happiness, he took the same attitude as expressed by another just previously in this forum, thinking none should be happy over such a thing, rather seeing it as has been posted here, and expressing sorrow over all the wasted years.
To be frank, I was shocked then, but not now. Feel nothing but pity for those unable to rejoice over even a deathbed change of heart. God speaks once sometimes twice, man doesn't comprehend it. Very glad for a decision to serve Him in my youth, yet feel an unprofitable servant still. No, don't expect everyone to understand this, though.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 27, 2015 13:02:53 GMT -5
I'm like you Dennis, I believe there's hope for everyone, and I don't care how long I've believed I hope for all to have that chance. Only God judges. The rest of that parable is very important too. The first became last because of their hardness. We must be careful how our hearts judge others.
Matthew 20:10
So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 27, 2015 14:59:39 GMT -5
I was thinking a bit further about your 'Animal Farm' comment a bit more. Isn't the point of it that even though we may try to have a system where we are all equal, in time the old pettiness, power tripping and politics re-asserts itself. Only perhaps worse. That's certainly what happened in Russia. The line, "we are all equal, but some are more equal than others" is absolutely brilliant. The idea of equality looses its essence, and becomes just a badge -- some have more of this 'equal' thing than others do. It's a problem in any system of ideals. People take them and use them as to create hierarchies, with those on the outside, those on the inside at various stages and levels. In doing so, the essence of the ideals is lost. I don't see it as anyone finding God at the end of their life but God finding them. In that parable the men had been there all day waiting to be hired, but had not been hired. Some people can be searching a long time but have not seen God till late on in their lives but their hearts have always been open to him it just wasn't their time. If the men in the parable had of gotten fed up of waiting and had given up earlier, they would never have been hired. So just the fact that they had been willing got them in. They also didn't know what they would receive, the men who agreed with the penny a day started early knowing their reward. These people were grateful with whatever they got. They were just glad to be hired. Just for having the heart to wait all day then to be grateful to get whatever was given to them made them worthy to receive what the workers received who worked all day! It doesn't matter who's first and last it matters that God blesses us and we get in. I don't care where I am. If I get in I'm blessed. And the thief on the cross was blessed to get in in the last hours of his life because he was willing and believed when it was his time! There is hope for everyone if we are willing. I agree with most of what you say, but you don't go quite far enough. I know that 'death bed conversion' is a kind of standard interpretation for these verses. Personally, I see way more emphasis on "conversion" by the people that wish to convert you, then I see from Jesus. I think it's more about God reading hearts and he's not going to reward people in the way that we think. If you follow a little further down to Matthew 20:25 to 27, you'll see even more Communism in the kingdom of heaven.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 27, 2015 15:55:19 GMT -5
We were in Sweden when word came of a true death bed "confession." We (Ylva, the children, and myself, we very glad to hear of it. However, when the new and younger than myself overseer there heard us expressing happiness, he took the same attitude as expressed by another just previously in this forum, thinking none should be happy over such a thing, rather seeing it as has been posted here, and expressing sorrow over all the wasted years.
To be frank, I was shocked then, but not now. Feel nothing but pity for those unable to rejoice over even a deathbed change of heart. God speaks once sometimes twice, man doesn't comprehend it. Very glad for a decision to serve Him in my youth, yet feel an unprofitable servant still. No, don't expect everyone to understand this, though. Well how about a conversion after death? Lots of info at this link for anyone interested in that one. www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 12:07:49 GMT -5
I don't see it as anyone finding God at the end of their life but God finding them. In that parable the men had been there all day waiting to be hired, but had not been hired. Some people can be searching a long time but have not seen God till late on in their lives but their hearts have always been open to him it just wasn't their time. If the men in the parable had of gotten fed up of waiting and had given up earlier, they would never have been hired. So just the fact that they had been willing got them in. They also didn't know what they would receive, the men who agreed with the penny a day started early knowing their reward. These people were grateful with whatever they got. They were just glad to be hired. Just for having the heart to wait all day then to be grateful to get whatever was given to them made them worthy to receive what the workers received who worked all day! It doesn't matter who's first and last it matters that God blesses us and we get in. I don't care where I am. If I get in I'm blessed. And the thief on the cross was blessed to get in in the last hours of his life because he was willing and believed when it was his time! There is hope for everyone if we are willing. I like the direction of your thoughts. I've always struggled with the seeming unfairness of those who wanted to work being told no, I don't need you. I'll call you later, if I need you.. Sort of at odds with the phrase, the harvest is great, but laborers are few. Anyway.. I like your positive outlook on the situation. Got me thinking a new way about that part of the story too. So, here we are, those of us for example, whose willing services have been rejected, maybe even never to be called on? So what are we going to do about it while we're waiting, hang around and complain? Grouse and grumble about the boss and the way he does things? Instead, inspired by you, I like the idea of, hey guys, while we're waiting, let's clean up around here.. make it a little nicer, more comfortable. Anybody got some food? How about we put it together and maybe get some soup ready for lunch. Anybody want to get a ball game going? And by the way, it's going to get awfully hot, would anyone instead want to see if they can find some bushes or something and bring them over to set up some shade? How about bring some water back from the distant stream to splash on our faces after we come in off the ball field? If the attitude starts to take hold of, hey.., there's opportunities to make life better and more fun, for me, it's better than the grumble and growl attitude. Especially if you have a bunch of people who, presumably, actually Want to do something too. Suddenly there's just a whole lot of things that can be done, and can be fun and useful. For the guys working in the field, they, or that, I have understood. I understand why the guys who complained and expected more, were out of line. They didn't know how to enjoy whatever it was they did. They didn't understand that if you don't figure out how to enjoy the journey, you'll probably be one of those who'll have something to complain about the destination too. High school and college sports have always fascinated me in this regard. It really does amazes me that young men and women, will lift weights to exhaustion, or even until they puke, and risk serious bodily injury, not to mention endure a lot of sweat, or cold, and suffer the possibility of tears, and the probability of strains, sprains, and really sore muscles, ... and for not even one single penny. In fact, these days you usually have to pay the boss, so to speak, just to get to do all of the above. So the penny can be like, wow, cool, and even that too!?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 18:48:22 GMT -5
Quote: So, here we are, those of us for example, whose willing services have been rejected, maybe even never to be called on?
Ettu, why would you think this? If you don't mind me asking?
P.s I like the positive attitude you're talking about, it's better to be willing and ready and have patience. Than being hard and walk away and miss the chance. Jesus said,
Matthew 24:32
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
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