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Post by mdm on Mar 30, 2015 16:25:58 GMT -5
Paul the apostles wrote about non-believers attending, listening what those in the worship fellowship sharing I Cor. 14:23,24 If therefore the whole church come together into one place and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? I'm not an unbeliever! Or unlearned! And speaking in tongues is speaking the word of God with wisdom and understanding, speaking with revelation from the Holy Spirit opening up the word of God in your heart so you understand and have wisdom. Nathan because I haven't professed through your church doesn't mean I'm an unbeliever! I love God with all my heart and I am very strong in faith! I wouldn't want to be welcome to your church as an unbeliever but a friend! Just as you would be in mine! Paul the apostles wrote about non-believers attending, listening what those in the worship fellowship sharing I Cor. 14:23,24 If therefore the whole church come together into one place and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? I wasn't sure where Nathan was going with that verse. I took it to mean that it's a good policy to answer questions plainly and honestly. But you are right, you would be welcome to meetings only as an outsider and someone who has much to learn, and Nathan has stated plainly and honestly that an outsider would have to sit in Gospel meetings and profess through workers before being welcome as a true believer.
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Post by mdm on Mar 30, 2015 16:27:43 GMT -5
To become a member of any church you have to do something, but it may not be a new profession of faith or new baptism. It may be just a private statement that you want to join the church/congregation and commitment to be part of it in fellowship and service. Why did you 'profess'? Why did you have a. 'new' baptism? in our fellowship? Perhaps you can start a thread on whether I was a model convert, and I can start a thread on whether you are a model worker This thread is about "sister churches," not about me.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 16:42:14 GMT -5
b) Mary is happy where she is.salvation and relationship with God in a intimately personal matter I respect and fully accept that and am happy for her in that. She would be very welcome in any gospel or fellowship meetings where I am as a visitor. Let's construct you statement as to what it grammatically means. "She would be very welcome as a visitor in any gospel or fellowship meetings where I am.
In other words, she can come & visit but not speak or partake of the bread & wine.
My impression of her invitation to her church fellowship was that a person can come to speak & partake of the bread & wine. Is this correct, maryhig?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 16:42:48 GMT -5
I'm not an unbeliever! Or unlearned! And speaking in tongues is speaking the word of God with wisdom and understanding, speaking with revelation from the Holy Spirit opening up the word of God in your heart so you understand and have wisdom. Nathan because I haven't professed through your church doesn't mean I'm an unbeliever! I love God with all my heart and I am very strong in faith! I wouldn't want to be welcome to your church as an unbeliever but a friend! Just as you would be in mine! I wasn't sure where Nathan was going with that verse. I took it to mean that it's a good policy to answer questions plainly and honestly. But you are right, you would be welcome to meetings only as an outsider and someone who has much to learn, and Nathan has stated plainly and honestly that an outsider would have to sit in Gospel meetings and profess through workers before being welcome as a true believer. Yes it is good to answer plainly, but it doesn't necessarily mean anyone coming to our meeting is going to have less understanding than we do! I would be foolish to say that. God has people everywhere! Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches The are different branches in Christ not just one! If his root of Christ is in our heart then the fruit of the tree will be holy! And the spirit in the heart will understand! But I do know what you mean about speaking plainly maja and it's right to be honest. If that's what the f+w's feel about me that's ok with me. But i don't feel like that about them!
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Post by snow on Mar 30, 2015 17:40:28 GMT -5
review005 said "In my ministry I would not accept someone just 'joining' our fellowship and regularly taking the emblems, or 'changing' churches and doing the same IT DOES NOT WORK OR LAST. I advise that until they are prompted by God to become a part of us then it is better they don't. 'Joiners' or 'changers' are a problem to themselves and to others, it does't work or does't last."
Why? What difference does it make what church a person walks into if they all worship the same God as you do, follow Christ, and have given their life to Christ? Why couldn't they just come and go, have fellowship with you and the others, partake of the emblems, give their testimony and pray with you etc. Why would it be an issue? I thought everyone that was a Christian believed in the same God and Jesus so why would they need to be a permanent member of your group in order to have fellowship? It sounds as though you think your group is somehow different from the others but how can that be when you all have the same God?
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Post by snow on Mar 30, 2015 18:01:02 GMT -5
Yes I guess we are different to do in this respect to some churches. 'Changers' 'movers ' and' joiners' don't last with us. They'll feel happy with a ross bowden style church. I've already mentioned the type of person that finds their spiritual home in our fellowship. Yes one God, one Christ.... try explaining that in the context of a group of devout Catholics and a group of devout 7th day Adventists going to a ross bowden style church and see what unity of doctrine they have, what depth of fellowship they enjoy after the first few weeks have passed. But is that a good thing? If someone worships the Christian God, why would it be a good thing to be 'different'? Would Jesus not allow certain ones of his followers to fellowship with him? Or would he just be open to whoever loved him and followed him to join him in fellowship?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 18:11:20 GMT -5
Yes I guess we are different to do in this respect to some churches. 'Changers' 'movers ' and' joiners' don't last with us. They'll feel happy with a ross bowden style church. I've already mentioned the type of person that finds their spiritual home in our fellowship. Yes one God, one Christ.... try explaining that in the context of a group of devout Catholics and a group of devout 7th day Adventists going to a ross bowden style church and see what unity of doctrine they have, what depth of fellowship they enjoy after the first few weeks have passed. Our way isn't easy to follow either, we believe in self denial because Jesus taught us that! But we do it with free will! We believe that you enter the kingdom here and now not at the end of your life, The lords daily prayer is "thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven". In earth means in us. So it's here and now that we enter in. And it's not easy either! Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Following Jesus is entering in the narrow way and it isn't easy, it's hard to take up your cross, deny yourself and follow him, but it's worth it because then your are alive in God so the narrow way is leading you to life in God. And we have a perfect teacher, one who has already done the work and passed the exam! So He can guide us too. Our lord Jesus!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 18:24:00 GMT -5
Yes I guess we are different to do in this respect to some churches. 'Changers' 'movers ' and' joiners' don't last with us. They'll feel happy with a ross bowden style church. I've already mentioned the type of person that finds their spiritual home in our fellowship. Yes one God, one Christ.... try explaining that in the context of a group of devout Catholics and a group of devout 7th day Adventists going to a ross bowden style church and see what unity of doctrine they have, what depth of fellowship they enjoy after the first few weeks have passed. But is that a good thing? If someone worships the Christian God, why would it be a good thing to be 'different'? Would Jesus not allow certain ones of his followers to fellowship with him? Or would he just be open to whoever loved him and followed him to join him in fellowship? The difference I believe is, those who say they believe and don't live it. And those who say they believe and do live it. You get some religious people who go to church on Sunday then forget God from Monday till the next church meeting. It's not the religion, it's the love of the heart that we have for God, we can easily be hypocrites if we're not careful. Just like the Pharasee's!
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Post by mdm on Mar 30, 2015 18:47:27 GMT -5
Perhaps you can start a thread on whether I was a model convert, and I can start a thread on whether you are a model worker This thread is about "sister churches," not about me. I notice you do not wish to answer the questions I have asked you. That is perfectly acceptable, you are under no obligation to do so. You have asked some questions of me that 1) are very personal and 2) have nothing to do with this thread. I have no intention of answering them. I could ask you some very personal questions as well, but it wouldn't be appropriate and it would have nothing to do with this thread. I've only asked questions that pertain to the public life of your church, and only because you disagreed with what I had posted first. If you don't wish to answer them, that's fine, but as a minister it seems you would want to answer any question that pertains to your church. For example: why would the Fellowship have little to offer to outsiders who are satisfied with their relationship with God, when it has a lot to offer to professing people who are satisfied with their relationship with God?
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Post by Gene on Mar 30, 2015 19:02:41 GMT -5
1) ~~ NathanB: The workers would like people to know and understand what they stand for, their belief and teachings of Jesus before anyone decide to profess to follow their Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and fellowship. Maja wrote: Yes, but would they need to profess in order to become full members? ~~ Yes, they would have to profess to become full members2) ~~ NathanB: If I were the senior worker in the area, I wouldn't stop Maryhig from taken parts or partake the emblems, as long she doesn't say thing which disturb the Sunday fellowship meetings. I will let the Spirit of God deals with her conviction... just like the workers did with me.Maja wrote: Would she be a full member without professing or only a welcome visitor?~~ Yes, eventually she has to be a full member and to profess/standing to her feet so others know this is the fellowship she wants to be part of... She is always welcome as a visitor if she decided NOT to be a member. Nathan, you are, as usual, to be commended for your honesty and forthrightness. Review005, take a lesson!
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Post by snow on Mar 30, 2015 20:34:59 GMT -5
But is that a good thing? If someone worships the Christian God, why would it be a good thing to be 'different'? Would Jesus not allow certain ones of his followers to fellowship with him? Or would he just be open to whoever loved him and followed him to join him in fellowship? Ask this of bishops & church leaders who have had a part in ecumenical councils & failed to achieve unity. If we never try to unite though, will it ever happen? Sometimes it takes a lot of 'failing' to achieve success. I imagine unity is much the same as long as people work towards it with open hearts and minds.
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Post by snow on Mar 30, 2015 20:37:02 GMT -5
But is that a good thing? If someone worships the Christian God, why would it be a good thing to be 'different'? Would Jesus not allow certain ones of his followers to fellowship with him? Or would he just be open to whoever loved him and followed him to join him in fellowship? The difference I believe is, those who say they believe and don't live it. And those who say they believe and do live it. You get some religious people who go to church on Sunday then forget God from Monday till the next church meeting. It's not the religion, it's the love of the heart that we have for God, we can easily be hypocrites if we're not careful. Just like the Pharasee's! I'm sure that's true. But isn't all about being a role model? If we don't allow the ones we thing aren't sincere enough or whatever other failure we attribute to them, how will they ever make any changes? The very fact they are showing up is more than some can do.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 20:53:29 GMT -5
The difference I believe is, those who say they believe and don't live it. And those who say they believe and do live it. You get some religious people who go to church on Sunday then forget God from Monday till the next church meeting. It's not the religion, it's the love of the heart that we have for God, we can easily be hypocrites if we're not careful. Just like the Pharasee's! I'm sure that's true. But isn't all about being a role model? If we don't allow the ones we thing aren't sincere enough or whatever other failure we attribute to them, how will they ever make any changes? The very fact they are showing up is more than some can do. What I'm trying to say snow is that love conquers everything. The true love for God in the heart is more important than the religion. You can be in a religion and have no love for God or your neighbour. On the other hand you may not go to church and not be in a religion and love him with all your heart and follow Jesus! Some people go to church only for show! And some worship from the depths of their heart not putting it all on show for everyone to see. That's why man can't judge because our mind's see the outward appearance God sees the heart! Right I'm going to sleep, it's nearly 3am here
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Post by snow on Mar 30, 2015 21:19:45 GMT -5
I'm sure that's true. But isn't all about being a role model? If we don't allow the ones we thing aren't sincere enough or whatever other failure we attribute to them, how will they ever make any changes? The very fact they are showing up is more than some can do. What I'm trying to say snow is that love conquers everything. The true love for God in the heart is more important than the religion. You can be in a religion and have no love for God or your neighbour. On the other hand you may not go to church and not be in a religion and love him with all your heart and follow Jesus! Some people go to church only for show! And some worship from the depths of their heart not putting it all on show for everyone to see. That's why man can't judge because our mind's see the outward appearance God sees the heart! Right I'm going to sleep, it's nearly 3am here I see what you're saying now, thanks for the clarification. Sweet Dreams!!
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 22:54:08 GMT -5
Perhaps you can start a thread on whether I was a model convert, and I can start a thread on whether you are a model worker This thread is about "sister churches," not about me. I notice you do not wish to answer the questions I have asked you. That is perfectly acceptable, you are under no obligation to do so. Can you give a reason for asking such personal questions? Would you wish to answer such personal questions about yourself? "Why did you 'profess'? " "Why did you have a. 'new' baptism? in our fellowship? "
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 23:26:07 GMT -5
My knowledge is based of how the "TRUTH" works in reality for all the years that I was part of it.
Yours was the post that I was I answering. However, it isn't personal about you; but it is that you are using the same kind of rhetoric that was used by the workers in the "TRUTH" for all those years.
It was, -I repeat, -it was carefully crafted language that kept people believing that the "TRUTH" actually went all the way back to the original disciples. It was such carefully crafted answers that kept so many people deceived for so many years!
If we want to have a meaningful discussion then we need to be truthful. I am stating what the rhetoric used in the "TRUTH" has been.
It has been the pattern, so well learned & handed down through the years that I'm sure that even many workers aren't aware of how or why that it was constructed. Whether they are even aware of it or not, it was & is disingenuous.
The use of dissembling has been part & parcel of the "TRUTH" at least ever since Cooney & Irvin were put out. You have written & posted your perspective & experience. It is not mine & common courtesy teaches that you do not ascribe that to another poster. Thank you! Courtesy on your part would allow me the right to I post what is not only my 'perspective & experience', but the 'perspective & experience' of the majority of the people in the "TRUTH" ever since Irvin left the Faith Mission & began preaching.
Except, of course, the majority did NOT know anything about Irvin and believed that this way called the "TRUTH" went all the way back to the time of Jesus. They were not privy to that information about Irvin until the past few decades.
I have no idea how long you have been in this way called the "TRUTH," therefore, I have no way of ascribing what your 'perspective & experience' happens to be other than what you post.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 23:45:31 GMT -5
Yes I guess we are different to do in this respect to some churches. 'changers' 'movers ' and' joiners' don't last with us. Now that the people who leave the "TRUTH" have been labeled as 'changers,' 'movers ' and 'joiners,' as the reason for why they left, -it gives the satisfaction of explaining them away as not 'really ever "understanding" the "TRUTH" to begin with, -not willing for the sacrifices, -wanting to take their own way, -wanting to be part of the world, etc. (I have heard all those explanations, already)
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 23:51:58 GMT -5
dmg, thank you, I find it interesting to read views of the eclectic group of people that make up this forum. Except that the eclectic group of people on this board all have been in, are still in, or have knowledge about this "TRUTH" of which you claim.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 0:23:54 GMT -5
I know one Truth:Jesus Christ. I do not use the expression 'the truth' in talking of our fellowship. I guess you will dispute this also? Of course you don't call it the "TRUTH" OR THE "WAY" any more as we all did when I was growing up.
You now understand how that sounds & have been calling it "f&w's" or the "fellowship" or something of that kind that doesn't quite so exclusive & a bit less arrogant & more 'modern.'
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 1:37:05 GMT -5
So ya reckon there is a bit of progress since your heyday then eh?! would ya concede me that? You have gone from acting as if you can teach me common courtesy to your acting in 'patronizing' manner.
When all else fails, -often the last resort is behaving in an 'jovial' condescending manner.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 5:14:42 GMT -5
In Every Part In every part the battle rages on, All through the night until the break of dawn, be of good courage, Christ the Lord shall come; till then, be strong! -------- Hang thy sheild of faith in victory, O soldier brave fight on!
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Post by mdm on Mar 31, 2015 10:30:16 GMT -5
You have asked some questions of me that 1) are very personal and 2) have nothing to do with this thread. I have no intention of answering them. I could ask you some very personal questions as well, but it wouldn't be appropriate and it would have nothing to do with this thread. I've only asked questions that pertain to the public life of your church, and only because you disagreed with what I had posted first. If you don't wish to answer them, that's fine, but as a minister it seems you would want to answer any question that pertains to your church. For example: why would the Fellowship have little to offer to outsiders who are satisfied with their relationship with God, when it has a lot to offer to professing people who are satisfied with their relationship with God? Maja a) your question why would the Fellowship have little to offer to outsiders who are satisfied with their relationship with God, when it has a lot to offer to professing people who are satisfied with their relationship with God? Those who have professed normally have had an experience where God has prompted/moved them to commit themselves to Christ and his teaching as they have found in our fellowship and through it's ministry. For those that become long term/rest of life members it is not a matter of 'joining' or 'changing' to another church.
Those 'outside' have not had that experience. Unless they experience the prompting of God I mention above then I expect they will find more in the church where they got their relationship with God. Our fellowship does not cater for those with the mindset of 'joining' 'changing' or 'improving' their church. So, one has to have had an experience with God within the context of the fellowship and only within that context in order to be able to benefit from the fellowship. And those who have had a relationship/experience with God outside of the context of the fellowship will not benefit from it.
That means that there can be no similarity between or the same source of "experiences with God" unless they are within the context of one fellowship. That means one experience is true, and one false. The experiences those in the fellowship have are true, and the ones outside of it are false. The two have different sources and are not compatible. Then I was right when I said in my first post that one has to profess through a worker and be baptized by a worker in order to be part of the fellowship?
consider this: What would the Catholic Church have to offer to a pentecostal Christian who is satisfied in their relationship with God? Not too much I would think. Their doctrine and style of worship is very different What would a pentecostal Church have to offer to a devout RC who is satisfied in their relationship with God? Not too much I would think. Their doctrine and style of worship is very different I could give countless such examples. What would our fellowship have to offer to non member who is satisfied in their relationship with God? If they did not agree with and accept the doctrine/teaching that they heard in our meetings then I doubt they would receive much. What would our fellowship have to offer to a member who is satisfied in their relationship with God? From my own experience the fellowship and meetings has considerable to offer. your profession and your baptism in our fellowship
You have questioned and expressed your disagreement about the need for a person to 'profess' and to be baptised to have part as a member of our fellowship on this thread. The question was whether Maryhig would be accepted as a visitor and/or full member if she came to the meetings. I only attempted to answer that question, not to criticize what I understand the practice to be. I have noticed that commenting on reality and calling things what they are is often perceived as criticism and "trouble-making." It doesn't have to be that way. That is the reason I asked you why you professed and why did you get baptised again. I am open and happy to discuss my faith, my profession, my baptism etc with most people. However you are quite correct, you are free to decline to post about why you professed etc on this thread or on TMB. I respectfully accept that.
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2015 11:29:05 GMT -5
Of course you're right Maja. Everyone knows, and Nathan confirmed, that unless you are professing and baptized by a worker you are going to hell. It's really quite simple. I was also told that when I asked a couple of workers about my non professing relatives. I was told they were unwilling and unfortunately that meant that they would not be saved. You can twist that in any way you like, make pretzels if you so choose, but bottom line is that if your not a card carrying 2x2 you are going to hell. Plain and simple.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 13:50:04 GMT -5
You have gone from acting as if you can teach me common courtesy to your acting in 'patronizing' manner.
When all else fails, -often the last resort is behaving in an 'jovial' condescending manner.
your perspective, your response An accurate perspective. I have not lived for 83 years & still be unaware that when someone uses phrases like, "ya' reckon there is a bit of progress since your heyday then eh", that it a way of treating someone as if they were inferior, ignorant & not in the "know" anymore.
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Post by mdm on Mar 31, 2015 14:14:18 GMT -5
Of course you're right Maja. Everyone knows, and Nathan confirmed, that unless you are professing and baptized by a worker you are going to hell. It's really quite simple. I was also told that when I asked a couple of workers about my non professing relatives. I was told they were unwilling and unfortunately that meant that they would not be saved. You can twist that in any way you like, make pretzels if you so choose, but bottom line is that if your not a card carrying 2x2 you are going to hell. Plain and simple. This thread aside, in my experience, it's not all black and white. Actually there are two types of exclusivity: church membership and salvation. Church exclusivity issue is black and white - this is the only true church and you have to profess through and be baptised by a worker in order to belong to it. But when it comes to salvation, many (or some?) F&W's, at least in my experience, believe that others may be saved and leave that to God to decide.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 14:16:06 GMT -5
Sorry dmg I have no reason to change or not stand by what I have written! Sorry our fellowship does not cater for people who are satisfied in their relationship with God and fellowship in their present church but are just 'looking for a change' or looking for some other church that appeals more. People like that might 'go through the motions' of 'professing'. But it will be short term and a 'fizzer' and a disappointment for them and for those they have contact with in our fellowship. Your use of terms like, 'cater' 'looking for a change' 'fizzer', 'looking for some other church that appeals more.' We have heard so much of that kind of stuff!
Is it any wonder why people left?
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Post by mdm on Mar 31, 2015 14:21:57 GMT -5
Maja You are right in what you said. Yes those who have had an experience with God within the context of the fellowship most definitely benefit from it in a way that those who haven't don't. If your mind draws a conclusion of one true and all else false....so be it. I certainly don't. I know this fellowship is God's Will and God's place for me. But I am one tiny minnow in one small backwater of humanity. I seek to live true to God in my place and according as he has revealed to me. When I met others who are happy in their relationship with God and are not part of the fellowship I am in and have no desire to be then I'm happy for them and I respect them in that. The people I know who are long term/life long members of our fellowship who were not b&r wanted to profess, they wanted to be baptized. You wrote your experience was that you had to profess, you had to be baptized. Many people who I know who are longterm/life members have an experience of finding Christ and new life in coming to the fellowship, they were disappointed with their previous church and experience. They have no desire to be in that environment again. As Rational has posted Christianity is exclusive. Your conviction leads you to one level of exclusivity, another Christian to another. Of course, nobody was making me profess or be baptized, but I had to in order to be part of the fellowship. I said that I "had to" not because I didn't want to, but to state what is necessary to be part of the fellowship.
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Post by emy on Mar 31, 2015 14:23:21 GMT -5
Of course you're right Maja. Everyone knows, and Nathan confirmed, that unless you are professing and baptized by a worker you are going to hell. It's really quite simple. I was also told that when I asked a couple of workers about my non professing relatives. I was told they were unwilling and unfortunately that meant that they would not be saved. You can twist that in any way you like, make pretzels if you so choose, but bottom line is that if your not a card carrying 2x2 you are going to hell. Plain and simple. Nathan also confirmed that the Spirit works with people before they have ever met a worker. I'm not in a position to know, but I would suppose that meeting workers in that case would just be a recognition of what the Spirit has been teaching.(Actually, maybe I can know, because it says pretty much that in John 16:7-13.) Another thing I don't know from experience is whether most converts ask to be baptised or if they are told they must be. I do know that even with B&R kids in this area, no one suggests they be baptised. They are expected to request it. Some of us really do believe God is the only judge and Jesus intercedes. Therefore, I could never say that anyone not in the fellowship is lost, and especially those who have never had opportunity to listen to the gospel as I know it. It's becoming clearer to me that the key to salvation is KNOWING God and Jesus Christ. (John 17:3; Matt. 7:22-23)
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