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Post by Admin on Mar 28, 2015 14:56:35 GMT -5
I agree that as Admin states it is far from worldwide. For me 'to profess' means making known publicly the choice one has made in his/her heart to surrender to Jesus and God's will. Yes I see it as a public declaration of being born again. Thanks emy and partaker. This is encouraging news. And yes, there are some workers young and old who understand and accept this too. It in no way diminishes their calling in life, nor the importance of preaching the gospel in a needy world. Blessings, admin
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Post by openingact34 on Mar 28, 2015 18:24:50 GMT -5
As recent postings on TMB have indicated, there are still living churches that have roots going back to Wm Irvine. The admin team decided to create a space for any members of any of the sister churches to the F&W to join in here. The similarities and doctrinal differences are fascinating, and cross-fertilization of perspectives can only be good. Are you also going to consider the Golden Friends in Vietnam as a "Sister Church"?
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Post by mdm on Mar 28, 2015 21:43:21 GMT -5
I agree that as Admin states it is far from worldwide. For me 'to profess' means making known publicly the choice one has made in his/her heart to surrender to Jesus and God's will. Yes I see it as a public declaration of being born again. If I may add my two cents... As someone who was a baptized member of a different church and who was as such in touch with workers both in Europe and in the US, one of whom was from New Zealand and had also labored in Australia, and as someone who has been in meetings in the US as well as several European countries, I can say with certainty that the worldwide meaning of 'professing' is to make known publicly that one believes that this church is the one right church and to denounce all previous allegiances and other churches as false. I had to 'profess' in order to join the church, and then I had to be baptized again in order to become a full member of the church. All of my previous commitments and experiences were seen by f&w's as leading up to being part of the one true church. I can see why those born and raised in it don't see it that way, as they don't have anything to give up and denounce, but that is not true for those converted, often even actively converted, from other churches. I can say with certainty that Maryhig would be welcome in meetings in my part of the US and would be allowed to take part in praying, speaking, emblems if she chose to participate, but she would not be considered a member of the church until she professed. It seems that in some parts of Europe outsiders are allowed only in Gospel meetings.
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Post by mdm on Mar 29, 2015 16:20:43 GMT -5
This is my observation from 35 yrs in the fellowship and ministry... Many of those who raised in the fellowship when they professed they do it to please their parents, family and friends. Having the outward appearances as professing going to all gospel meetings, conventions, Speaking on Sunday morning meetings, but NOT possessing of the Spirit. However, there are those raise in the fellowship, who truly want to serve God, and hear the call to go in the work.
Those like myself who wasn't born and raise in the fellowship, we decided by our own choices to serve Jesus and be part of 2x2 fellowship. We profess for ourselves and NOT because of our parents, or friends.
I wish the professing parents could somehow explain this to their children about professing/Serving God because we LOVE Him and don't do it to please the parents or anyone. Teach them how to pray, reading/studying the Bible. Go to God in prayers for help and guidance. Get to know Jesus in personal ways. Tests, and trials will come in their lives and they need to have God within to overcome them. They need to have and know the POWER supply plugs so they don't have power outage when they go out into the real world. This is true for any church - some are there out of family tradition and family or social reasons, and some are there because of their relationship with God.
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Post by mdm on Mar 29, 2015 18:35:15 GMT -5
If I may add my two cents... As someone who was a baptized member of a different church and who was as such in touch with workers both in Europe and in the US, one of whom was from New Zealand and had also labored in Australia, and as someone who has been in meetings in the US as well as several European countries, I can say with certainty that the worldwide meaning of 'professing' is to make known publicly that one believes that this church is the one right church and to denounce all previous allegiances and other churches as false. This is your personal experience and perception of 'professing'.
In my own personal experience and then in the numerous discussions I have had with people considering the matter of professing the subject of this being the one true church HAS NEVER once come up....for this reason I am unable to accept your words. "I can say with certainty that the worldwide meaning of 'professing' is to make known publicly that one believes that this church is the one right church........." Often focus has been whether the candidate has assurance of a call from God. Are they ready to surrender to the Lordship of Christ.
I had to 'profess' in order to join the church, and then I had to be baptized again in order to become a full member of the church. All of my previous commitments and experiences were seen by f&w's as leading up to being part of the one true church. This is unfortunate you felt you 'had' to profess. If you did it because you felt you had to I suggest perhaps it would have been better if you never had? In my discussions with candidates for this I tell them it is solely a matter between themselves and God. 'Professing' is my ministry is simply a public declaration of a personal covenant that an individual has made with God. I can see why those born and raised in it don't see it that way, as they don't have anything to give up and denounce, but that is not true for those converted, often even actively converted, from other churches. I know intimately a number who were not b&r in this way and are now part of our fellowship. They are people who were seeking, people who were disillusioned in their spiritual life and experience in the church they previously belonged to. Did they have to leave their old church? Not at all, they wanted to! They found life and reality they previously didn't have. They gladly left the old and came to the new and I know they have no desire to go back to the old. In my ministry I meet many people, many people are happy and satisfied in their current church. I respect and appreciate that; they are in the right place for them and that is where they are advised to stay. We are not looking for people who with any reluctance have to profess; such are well advised to remain in the church where they are. We are looking for people who want to profess because of how God has spoken to them and called them. Let's say someone came to the workers in your area and said: "I am a Christian, I have a relationship with God and go to church, but I really like your home meetings, I like the way your preachers work, your people seem to be sincere. Can I join your church?" This is all assuming it's happening in an area with established meetings, plenty of friends and regular Gospel meetings (not in an area with no meetings). 1) Would they be allowed to visit Sunday and/or Wednesday meetings or would they be told they need to attend Gospel meetings first? 1) Would they be told they need to go to Gospel meetings first and profess before they can be full members? 2) Would there be an expectation that they need to be baptized by the workers again after having professed? 3) In some areas only baptized members can partake of emblemes. If that is the case in your area, can converts from other churches partake of emblems without having been baptized by the workers? Edited to add: If Maryhig moved to your area and told the workers: "I am a member of the church that Edward Cooney belonged to, but we don't have meetings here. Can I come to your meetings as a full member?" - would the answers be the same?
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Post by mdm on Mar 29, 2015 19:13:25 GMT -5
Any brave professing people out there, please answer the questions above as well. You know the answers.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Mar 29, 2015 19:58:22 GMT -5
Having just recently exited the fellowship and relinquished our meeting, I absolutely know the answers to the above questions but I'm not 'in' any more. However, I can quote from a recent convention. The brother worker who is now overseer for CA said, when he tested the meeting, 'if you stand up, you are making a decision for Jesus and accepting that this is the one true ministry.' A twofer!
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2015 20:22:30 GMT -5
Having just recently exited the fellowship and relinquished our meeting, I absolutely know the answers to the above questions but I'm not 'in' any more. However, I can quote from a recent convention. The brother worker who is now overseer for CA said, when he tested the meeting, 'if you stand up, you are making a decision for Jesus and accepting that this is the one true ministry.' A twofer! wow doesn't get more clear than that does it!! I know the same thing of course many years ago when I confronted the workers as to why my non professing relatives were not saved. Anyone that denies that the workers state that they must be in the church called the Truth to be saved are not walking the 'party line' and/or are not being truthful.
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Post by mdm on Mar 29, 2015 21:41:29 GMT -5
Let's say someone came to the workers in your area and said: "I am a Christian, I have a relationship with God and go to church, but I really like your home meetings, I like the way your preachers work, your people seem to be sincere. Can I join your church?" This is all assuming it's happening in an area with established meetings, plenty of friends and regular Gospel meetings (not in an area with no meetings). 1) Would they be allowed to visit Sunday and/or Wednesday meetings or would they be told they need to attend Gospel meetings first? ~~ I will give it a try and tell you my experience.... When I was in the work, we had non-professing contacts just attended the Sunday morning meetings because the workers were at preps, conventions. After we came back from conventions this person attended both gospel meetings and Sunday morning fellowship meetings.2) Would they be told they need to go to Gospel meetings first and profess before they can be full members? ~~ The workers would like people to know and understand what they stand for, their belief and teachings of Jesus before anyone decide to profess to follow their Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and fellowship.
Yes, but would they need to profess in order to become full members?3) Would there be an expectation that they need to be baptized by the workers again after having professed? ~~ Yes. I was baptized by my Pentecostal pastor a year before I met the workers. I was by my own choice that I want to be baptized again by the workers because I felt my previous baptism wasn't validated. 4) In some areas only baptized members can partake of emblems. If that is the case in your area, can converts from other churches partake of emblems without having been baptized by the workers? ~~ We partook the emblems for 6 months before we were baptized by the workers. The workers let us to partake the emblems because they knew we were in both feet already, so they let the Spirit of God to teach us when is the right time to be baptized again.5) Edited to add: If Maryhig moved to your area and told the workers: "I am a member of the church that Edward Cooney belonged to, but we don't have meetings here. Can I come to your meetings as a full member?" - would the answers be the same? ~~ If I were the senior worker in the area, I wouldn't stop Maryhig from taken parts or partake the emblems, as long she doesn't say thing which disturb the Sunday fellowship meetings. I will let the Spirit of God deals with her conviction... just like the workers did with me.Would she be a full member without professing or only a welcome visitor?
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Post by mdm on Mar 29, 2015 22:09:47 GMT -5
Let's say someone came to the workers in your area and said: "I am a Christian, I have a relationship with God and go to church, but I really like your home meetings, I like the way your preachers work, your people seem to be sincere. Can I join your church?" I'd say we aren't looking for people to 'join' our church.
We are looking for people who after attending Gospel meetings are conscious of a prompting or call from God to become part of our fellowship. I'd tell them it doesn't work when people just want to 'join'. If they are happy with their relationship with God and in the fellowship of the present church they are in them I'd encourage them to continue with that. This is all assuming it's happening in an area with established meetings, plenty of friends and regular Gospel meetings (not in an area with no meetings). 1) Would they be allowed to visit Sunday and/or Wednesday meetings or would they be told they need to attend Gospel meetings first? Each case would need to decided according to it's merit's/circumstances. But yes such people visit Sunday or Wednesdays meetings sometimes. But if they have no need or intention of attending Gospel meetings then it will be a short term arrangement.
Can I classify people into two categories? a) Those who are satisfied in their relationship with God and fellowship in some church but somehow as Maja describes they want to 'join us'. There likely little our fellowship can offer such people. b)People who were seeking, people who were disillusioned in their spiritual life and experience in the church they attend. I know many with a testimony like this. Our fellowship has come to mean everything to them
1) Would they be told they need to go to Gospel meetings first and profess before they can be full members? class a) would find this unnecessary and unreasonable (Maja perhaps you are of this mind?) class b)tell of going to Gospel meetings as being a important part of their spiritual experience and of finding that which filled the void that was in their life previously.2) Would there be an expectation that they need to be baptized by the workers again after having professed? class a) would find this unnecessary and unreasonable (Maja perhaps you are of this mind?) class b) mostly want to be baptized! I know many who have had a previous 'baptism'. It was all part of the disullusionment and disappointment of their old life They wish to be baptised as part of their new spiritual experience
3) In some areas only baptized members can partake of emblemes. If that is the case in your area, can converts from other churches partake of emblems without having been baptized by the workers? YesEdited to add: If Maryhig moved to your area and told the workers: "I am a member of the church that Edward Cooney belonged to, but we don't have meetings here. Can I come to your meetings as a full member?" - would the answers be the same? And, if Maryhig came to you, not because she wanted to change churches, but because the meetings were the closest she could find to what she had back home, would you accept her in full fellowship without requiring her to profess? BTW, why is it that the fellowship would have little to offer to those who are satisfied with their relationship with God? Is there no one in the Fellowship who is satisfied with their relationship with God or do they stop receiving and benefiting from the fellowship once they are satisfied?
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Post by mdm on Mar 29, 2015 22:19:12 GMT -5
Maja, Your perspective/understanding/experience is different to mine and that of many of my colleagues. We realise 'it doesn't work' for people who are satisfied in their relationship with God and fellowship with others in some church to 'join' our fellowship. If they don't feel a prompting or calling from God to leave the old and come to the new then 'it doesn't work'. So yes people mostly always make some declaration or profession that they have made a decision to follow Jesus. I'm sure you know this answer without needing to ask Nathan or me or anyone else,! I suspect you were never happy with such? Would it be correct that you never made a decision with all your heart to leave the old and come to the new that the gospel meetings introduces needy seeking souls to? When you listened in gospel meetings were you seeking? did you have a void in your life? Was there a lack in your spiritual experience? IF the answer is no to any of these questions or if you answer yes to: Were you satisfied in your spiritual life and experience and church when you listened to the gospel then it is difficult for me to understand the meaning or worth of any 'profession' that you made. Our fellowship doesn't cater to people looking to 'change' their church 'join another one, perhaps one that they like better . It is something deeper than that. Those who are disillusioned, dissatisfied, unsatisfied, those who are seeking. Like one... A girl who grew up in Buddhism, she had a void. She started going to churches, went to a dozen or more over a period of years. Didn't know what she was looking for but didn't find it in any of those churches. Then met two sister workers. She found it! The 'night' became a new day '! People like this want to profess, want to be baptized! Oh, the church-changing scenario was purely hypothetical. Let's not make this about me The question was whether Maryhig or any other church-going Christian would be welcome in the meetings and in what capacity - visitor or full member, and I stated that she would be welcome as a visitor because she hasn't professed in workers' meetings and thus publicly stated not just her faith in God and Jesus, but also conviction that this is the one true way. To which you replied that it is only my experience and perception...
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 1:31:36 GMT -5
1) ~~ NathanB: The workers would like people to know and understand what they stand for, their belief and teachings of Jesus before anyone decide to profess to follow their Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and fellowship. Maja wrote: Yes, but would they need to profess in order to become full members? ~~ Yes, they would have to profess to become full members2) ~~ NathanB: If I were the senior worker in the area, I wouldn't stop Maryhig from taken parts or partake the emblems, as long she doesn't say thing which disturb the Sunday fellowship meetings. I will let the Spirit of God deals with her conviction... just like the workers did with me.Maja wrote: Would she be a full member without professing or only a welcome visitor?~~ Yes, eventually she has to be a full member and to profess/standing to her feet so others know this is the fellowship she wants to be part of... She is always welcome as a visitor if she decided NOT to be a member. Well thanks everyone, do you wonder what I think of all this? I'm sure with most religions to join fully you have to do something to be in their way . But anyway I'm happy where I am. I think anyone starts attending a meeting is searching so thats is why I feel it is good that we don't stop people attending our meetings and we would encourage them to come if they wished to! Also, i do follow Jesus but I'm not perfect nor is anyone else so no other human being can know if another is going to heaven or not, because we are all sinners! God decides that not man. The only chance we have is to follow his son because he lived a perfect life. We are not judges. It's though Christ we are saved not through any man! What if the man we profess through is corrupt? How would that work? The person professing could have a better heart than them! That's why we can only go through Jesus because he was sinless!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 2:10:48 GMT -5
Well thanks everyone, do you wonder what I think of all this? I'm sure with most religions to join fully you have to do something to be in their way . But anyway I'm happy where I am. I think anyone starts attending a meeting is searching so thats is why I feel it is good that we don't stop people attending our meetings and we would encourage them to come if they wished to! Also, i do follow Jesus but I'm not perfect nor is anyone else so no other human being can know if another is going to heaven or not, because we are all sinners! God decides that not man. The only chance we have is to follow his son because he lived a perfect life. We are not judges. It's though Christ we are saved not through any man! What if the man we profess through is corrupt? How would that work? The person professing could have a better heart than them! That's why we can only go through Jesus because he was sinless! The workers and the friends are only messengers... like John the Baptist... He pointed others to follow Jesus once his job was done he faded in the background, and said "Christ must increase and I must decrease." Jesus is the bridegroom of our souls and John the Baptist was only one of the bridegroom's best men.I believe this about the people of God also Nathan
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 2:20:50 GMT -5
Well thanks everyone, do you wonder what I think of all this? I'm sure with most religions to join fully you have to do something to be in their way . But anyway I'm happy where I am. I think anyone starts attending a meeting is searching so thats is why I feel it is good that we don't stop people attending our meetings and we would encourage them to come if they wished to! Also, i do follow Jesus but I'm not perfect nor is anyone else so no other human being can know if another is going to heaven or not, because we are all sinners! God decides that not man. The only chance we have is to follow his son because he lived a perfect life. We are not judges. It's though Christ we are saved not through any man! What if the man we profess through is corrupt? How would that work? The person professing could have a better heart than them! That's why we can only go through Jesus because he was sinless! The workers and the friends are only messengers... like John the Baptist... He pointed others to follow Jesus once his job was done he faded in the background, and said "Christ must increase and I must decrease." Jesus is the bridegroom of our souls and John the Baptist was only one of the bridegroom's best men.That also applies to our own hearts too. As his love increases, our worldly lusts and self will decreases, and we are born anew with a new heart living a life to please the father rather than ourselves. I liked that Nathan. We have said that in our meetings
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 2:57:34 GMT -5
That also applies to our own hearts too. As his love increases, our worldly lusts and self will decreases, and we are born anew with a new heart living a life to please the father rather than ourselves. I liked that Nathan. We have said that in our meetings Awesome... Uncle Leo the worker who I professed through, he saw us young people adored him with great respect, because he showed that he cared and loved us... he said, " Christ must increase in your life, and I must decrease." and point us to look and follow Jesus. Another brother worker told me before I was going into the work, "Nathan, remember stay off the lime light" point others to follow Jesus. So, this is has been my goal in life and that's point others to follow Jesus our Lord God and Savior.I felt like this about my uncle, he didn't take any praise and was a very humble man. He said without God and Christ he couldn't do anything in his life, and I know God blessed him because he was such a strong man of God! He always told us to follow Jesus, that he is the way. The natural man is only a guide!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 3:01:07 GMT -5
That also applies to our own hearts too. As his love increases, our worldly lusts and self will decreases, and we are born anew with a new heart living a life to please the father rather than ourselves. I liked that Nathan. We have said that in our meetings Awesome... Uncle Leo the worker who I professed through, he saw us young people adored him with great respect, because he showed that he cared and loved us. He took us to eat at McDonald's and spent a lot of time teaching us about Jesus.
Uncle Leo didn't want our eyes to focus on him so he said, " Christ must increase in your life, and I must decrease." and point us to focus, look and follow Jesus. Another brother worker told me before I was going into the work, "Nathan, remember stay off the lime light" point others to follow Jesus. So, this is has been my goal in life and that's point others to follow Jesus our Lord God and Savior.Hey Nathan, that's a good one stay out of the lime light and stay in God's light
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Post by Greg on Mar 30, 2015 3:49:57 GMT -5
I agree that as Admin states it is far from worldwide. For me 'to profess' means making known publicly the choice one has made in his/her heart to surrender to Jesus and God's will. Reminds me of the disclaimer: "Results not typical. Individual experiences may vary."
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 4:28:07 GMT -5
Maja, Your perspective/understanding/experience is different to mine and that of many of my colleagues. We realise 'it doesn't work' for people who are satisfied in their relationship with God and fellowship with others in some church to 'join' our fellowship. If they don't feel a prompting or calling from God to leave the old and come to the new then 'it doesn't work'. So yes people mostly always make some declaration or profession that they have made a decision to follow Jesus. I'm sure you know this answer without needing to ask Nathan or me or anyone else,! I suspect you were never happy with such? Would it be correct that you never made a decision with all your heart to leave the old and come to the new that the gospel meetings introduces needy seeking souls to? When you listened in gospel meetings were you seeking did you have a void in your life? Was there a lack in your spiritual experience?IF the answer is no to any of these questions or if you answer yes to: Were you satisfied in your spiritual life and experience and church when you listened to the gospel? Then it is difficult for me to understand the meaning or worth of any 'profession' that you made.O ur fellowship doesn't cater to people looking to 'change' their church 'join another one, perhaps one that they like better .
Come, review005!
That was absolutely unseemly for you to question Maja like that!
It usually the way the workers look at anyone who leaves the "TRUE" OR "WAY." Most of us who left have probably been accused of the same!
In a church which believes that they are the only "TRUE" church, it is difficult to look at it differently. Just be aware, review005, -we have heard it all before!
I am fully aware psychological reason that YOU need to believe that. However, it doesn't excuse your grilling maja with such remarks!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 9:04:56 GMT -5
Hiya! , Yes I have heard of it, I've been trying to get hold of it. I can't find it online, a couple of people at our meeting have a copy but can't find one, they have looked for them, but it looks like they may have lent them out and can't remember who to. But I'm going to ask around. They said I should read, it and how interesting it is! Maryhig, I have a spare copy of the Patricia Roberts book - Patricia sent me a few a number of years after I spoke to her in Ireland. She was a lovely lady. Happy to send it to you if you PM me. If you are ever in Sydney, you are more than welcome to visit with us and also attend our church and participate in it. There are no restrictions or anyone checking on you - everyone who loves the Lord (and I know you do) is encouraged to take part in communion. Since leaving meetings, I've found that the practice of non-professing people (including Christians) attending 2x2 meetings is quite varied around the world. The workers as a general rule don't like non 2x2ers attending their meetings but as Emy says the friends often take a less strict line on it. I know over the years that we occasionally had a Christian fellow attend the meeting in my folk's home and he was quite welcome to attend, take part and take the emblems. It's the way it should be. When I left meetings my wife left a couple of years after I did. Occasionally I would attend meeting with her particularly if we were travelling outside of Sydney. I asked our Head Worker whether or not I was welcome to take the bread and wine in the meeting (when I was with my wife Jo and not attending the church I had moved to) and he quoted 1 Corinthians 10 21 "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons". One thing is clear - they don't like other folk from other Christian churches coming to their meetings and taking part etc! However, in practice many friends in local meetings are far more relaxed. That's very kind of you, I would love a copy. If you Let me know how much it is for the book and how much postage I'd be very grateful. And thanks for the invite to your church but I can't ever see me getting to Sydney lol. We are open like you. And anyone is welcome so you would be welcome to ours also. I feel our doors should be open to all! Because God is there for everyone if they choose Thank you again Mary Edit. I'll just ask the people in the meeting first as they are trying to find me a copy, but if they can't then that would be great thank you
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 10:56:53 GMT -5
Reiview005, your attitude is why so many no longer go to meeting. You do not know how to be truthful if your life depended on it. Thank be to God that you are not the judge of your fellow men.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 14:10:14 GMT -5
Sorry dmg I have no reason to change or not stand by what I have written! I know (and Maja probably also) knows people in our fellowship who: Were completely happy with their decision to profess, they didn't 'have' to profess/leave the old and cleave to the new/. They wanted to and they have never regretted it! People with a void in their life, people who had a lack in their spiritual experience until they 'professed' and became part of our fellowship. People who were not satisfied in their spiritual life and experience and church before they listened in gospel meetings and knew of God working in their hearts and giving them something they never had before. Sorry our fellowship does not cater for people who are satisfied in their relationship with God and fellowship in their present church but are just 'looking for a change' or looking for some other church that appeals more. People like that might 'go through the motions' of 'professing'. But it will be short term and a 'fizzer' and a disappointment for them and for those they have contact with in our fellowship. Review005, You know fully WELL that Maryhig or anyone from any other church, could simple just come to the meetings & be accepted & allowed to speak & partake of the bread & wine without first going to gospel meetings and acknowledge that the "TRUTH," the"WAY," in which you are a worker is the ONLY way that they could be in the fellowship of the "TRUTH!"
You know that as well as I do.
I wasn't B&R in the "TRUTH," and was a part of the "fellowship" for at least 40 years & NOT be aware of those conditions. The kind of statements that you make are disingenuous.
It is that same kind of rhetoric which is dishonest & untruthful but very carefully crafted which through all those years made it appear that the "TRUTH" went all the way to the original apostles.
It was that rhetoric which deceived people and caused so much pain to so many people when they finally learned differently.
Of course you are not going to change!
You wouldn't be allowed to continue to be in the 'work' if you changed!
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 14:18:57 GMT -5
Reiview005, your attitude is why so many no longer go to meeting. You do not know how to be truthful if your life depended on it. Thank be to God that you are not the judge of your fellow men. Marie, Please help me. You could start by giving each false statement I have posted on this thread. Thanks! It isn't so much that any one statement is neccessaraly "false" in & of itself, but it is rather that the whole is carefully crafted to make something appear true when it really isn't.
It is what is NOT said, rather than what IS said that often causes the whole to be untrue.
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Post by mdm on Mar 30, 2015 14:46:45 GMT -5
1) ~~ NathanB: The workers would like people to know and understand what they stand for, their belief and teachings of Jesus before anyone decide to profess to follow their Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and fellowship. Maja wrote: Yes, but would they need to profess in order to become full members? ~~ Yes, they would have to profess to become full members2) ~~ NathanB: If I were the senior worker in the area, I wouldn't stop Maryhig from taken parts or partake the emblems, as long she doesn't say thing which disturb the Sunday fellowship meetings. I will let the Spirit of God deals with her conviction... just like the workers did with me.Maja wrote: Would she be a full member without professing or only a welcome visitor?~~ Yes, eventually she has to be a full member and to profess/standing to her feet so others know this is the fellowship she wants to be part of... She is always welcome as a visitor if she decided NOT to be a member. Thank you Nathan.
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Post by mdm on Mar 30, 2015 15:10:23 GMT -5
And, if Maryhig came to you, not because she wanted to change churches, but because the meetings were the closest she could find to what she had back home, would you accept her in full fellowship without requiring her to profess? I will not comment on Maryhig personally. She has requested that already in a post on 28 Mar that there no debate about her attending or not attending meetings.
Maja did you resent it that you professed? Would you have been happier if you hadn't done that?
I have not heard anyone who resented professing still remaining in it now. Those who remain it the fellowship look back on it with great joy, a very meaningful day in their experience.
I'll put it for you and others who may be reading here that if making a 'profession' is something that a person would find unnecessary or burdensome then it will be better for them and better for our fellowship that the person doesn't seek fellowship with us. It will be better they go to a church that accepts people 'joining' or 'changing' churches.
Yes are quite different to churches who gladly accept those wishing to change to a new or different or more suitable church, one that has better music or a nicer building or a more charismatic eloquent preacher etc etc etc
BTW, why is it that the fellowship would have little to offer to those who are satisfied with their relationship with God? You have taken part of my quote, I wrote 'satisfied in their relationship with God and fellowship in some church'
Is there no one in the Fellowship who is satisfied with their relationship with God or do they stop receiving and benefiting from the fellowship once they are satisfied? You well know, I know there are ten of thousands of members of the fellowship who are satisfied with their relationship with God or are you going to deny the testimonies you heard while going to meeting, convention etc? They don't stop receiving and benefiting from the fellowship. I have heard you will have heard people testifying of how it increases. I don't know why you make this to be about me. The question was whether members of the Fellowship's "sister churches" would be accepted in fellowship without having to profess through a worker and be baptized by a worker. I asked some simple "yes" or "no" questions that were not meant to be critical, but shine light on the subject matter. I am not being critical of exclusivity, just being honest about it. I professed for 16 years, so I know first-hand how hard it is to admit exclusivity openly before outsiders. Friends and workers never just come out and state it openly, but "wait for the Spirit to teach." Why? Because it would be a shock to most and would lead to automatic rejection. Personally, I found it embarrassing and always hoped my non-professing friends and family would not ask about it! I am sorry that I took 'satisfied in their relationship with God' out of context. I didn't realize I was doing that as to me those are two different things. Or do you think that one can only be satisfied with their relationship with God if they are also satisfied with the fellowship they are in? Yes, I know there are folks in the meetings who are satisfied and for a good reason. I was just trying to understand why the Fellowship would not be beneficial for outsiders who are satisfied with their relationship with God, but is beneficial for professing people who are satisfied with their relationship with God.
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Post by mdm on Mar 30, 2015 15:26:13 GMT -5
b)Mary is happy where she is. Salvation and relationship with God in a intimately personal matter.I respect and fully accept that and am happy for her in that. She would be very welcome in any gospel or fellowship meetings where I am as a visitor. She recognises what some posters on this thread are unable to recognise that: "to join fully you have to do something to be in their way".
Good on you Maryhig for the sense you bring to this thread! To become a member of any church you have to do something, but it may not be a new profession of faith or new baptism. It may be just a private statement that you want to join the church/congregation and commitment to be part of it in fellowship and service.
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Post by mdm on Mar 30, 2015 15:51:21 GMT -5
Paul the apostles wrote about non-believers attending, listening what those in the worship fellowship sharing I Cor. 14:23,24 If therefore the whole church come together into one place and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? Your answers were in plain English Thank you.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 30, 2015 16:18:05 GMT -5
Paul the apostles wrote about non-believers attending, listening what those in the worship fellowship sharing I Cor. 14:23,24 If therefore the whole church come together into one place and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? I'm not an unbeliever! Or unlearned! And speaking in tongues is speaking the word of God with wisdom and understanding, speaking with revelation from the Holy Spirit opening up the word of God in your heart so you understand and have wisdom. Nathan because I haven't professed through your church doesn't mean I'm an unbeliever! I love God with all my heart and I am very strong in faith! I wouldn't want to be welcome to your church as an unbeliever but a friend! Just as you would be in mine! Paul the apostles wrote about non-believers attending, listening what those in the worship fellowship sharing I Cor. 14:23,24 If therefore the whole church come together into one place and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2015 16:24:22 GMT -5
Review005, You know fully WELL that Maryhig or anyone from any other church, could simple just come to the meetings & be accepted & allowed to speak & partake of the bread & wine without first going to gospel meetings and acknowledge that the "TRUTH," the"WAY," in which you are a worker is the ONLY way that they could be in the fellowship of the "TRUTH!"
You know that as well as I do.
dmg, I am disappointed in you; based on your perception and experience saying that is me. That is not the way to have a meaningful discussion on a forum. a)Maryhig is quite happy where she is. I respect and appreciate her in that. b)Maryhig herself has said "I'm sure with most religions to join fully you have to do something to be in their way. She understands and acknowledges what a number of posters on this thread are unable to do.
Just study the rules/constitution of churches. It is not uncommon for them to have the stipulation that to be a member of their church you cannot also be the member of another church at the same time. Someone posted that from the rules of an Aust/NZ church here on a thread here sometime ago.
In my ministry I would not accept someone just 'joining' our fellowship and regularly taking the emblems, or 'changing' churches and doing the same IT DOES NOT WORK OR LAST.
I advise that until they are prompted by God to become a part of us then it is better they don't.
'Joiners' or 'changers' are a problem to themselves and to others, it does't work or does't last.
I wasn't B&R in the "TRUTH," and was a part of the "fellowship" for at least 40 years & NOT be aware of those conditions. The kind of statements that you make are disingenuous.
Wadda ya mean? I want to know the disingenuous/false statements I have made on this thread.
It is that same kind of rhetoric which is dishonest & untruthful but very carefully crafted which through all those years made it appear that the "TRUTH" went all the way to the original apostles.
I have NEVER thought that or been taught that. I knew from teenage years the history of our fellowship. I object to you saying your experience is mine. I have my experience and I will state it here.
It was that rhetoric which deceived people and caused so much pain to so many people when they finally learned differently. Your experience and perception is VERY different to mine.
Of course you are not going to change!
I disclaim you stating your experience and saying it is mine.
You wouldn't be allowed to continue to be in the 'work' if you changed!
irrelevant. I am not what you are claiming. You would soon start 'jump up and down' if I started saying you were things that you aren't and I respectfully request that you desist from doing the same about me.
My knowledge is based of how the "TRUTH" works in reality for all the years that I was part of it.
Yours was the post that I was I answering. However, it isn't personal about you; but it is that you are using the same kind of rhetoric that was used by the workers in the "TRUTH" for all those years.
It was, -I repeat, -it was carefully crafted language that kept people believing that the "TRUTH" actually went all the way back to the original disciples. It was such carefully crafted answers that kept so many people deceived for so many years!
If we want to have a meaningful discussion then we need to be truthful. I am stating what the rhetoric used in the "TRUTH" has been.
It has been the pattern, so well learned & handed down through the years that I'm sure that even many workers aren't aware of how or why that it was constructed. Whether they are even aware of it or not, it was & is disingenuous.
The use of dissembling has been part & parcel of the "TRUTH" at least ever since Cooney & Irvin were put out.
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