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Post by bubbles on Mar 8, 2015 21:45:23 GMT -5
PS:the bible states theat Jesus Christ is our healer. Why wouldnt we go to him? First.even if it is on our way to ER.. Theres been a few times in my life where I have escaped death on the road. Ive screamed his name instinctively in that split second of avoiding impact. I know non christians have as well. youtu.be/m2MPuk0SkPAGEE WHIZZ!!!
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 8, 2015 22:10:57 GMT -5
No I don't imagine it could. Maybe because no one believes that anything really cures cancer? Or the obvious, it takes drugs to cure cancer. But all of us have heard stories of tumors receding when patients are told there is a new cancer drug that helps and it's nothing but a sugar pill. How accurate any of the stories are is anyone's guess. But I imagine it's could happen if someone was given a pill and told it would absolutely help them, that it was brand new on the market and had a 100% cure rate. The problem with stories that we have heard of tumors receding are just that, stories, -anecdotal with no scientific evidence available.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 8, 2015 22:14:18 GMT -5
PS:the bible states theat Jesus Christ is our healer. Why wouldnt we go to him? First.even if it is on our way to ER.. Theres been a few times in my life where I have escaped death on the road. Ive screamed his name instinctively in that split second of avoiding impact. I know non christians have as well. Some people even say that when the telephone rings, or when their kid wants a favor, or when they see bad news on the TV. They all survive. I'm not used to yelling "God", so I forgot to do is the time we rolled over in our car. We all walked away. But then -- we WERE on our way to meeting.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 8, 2015 23:00:14 GMT -5
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/side-effects/200906/placebos-do-work-lets-consider-why
Here is a excerpt from that link from that rational just gave.
Placebos Do Work: Let's Consider WhyNew research on the placebo effect has big implications.Post published by Christopher Lane Ph.D. on Jun 26, 2009 in Side Effects "We not only know placebos work," Dr. Harriet Hall explains in a fascinating, well-researched article in Skeptic (link is external), "we know there is a hierarchy of effectiveness":To help convey the power of persuasion that doctors routinely wield, Dr. Hall's article opens with a treatment anecdote that gives a flavor of the article to come: "Jane D. was a regular visitor to our ER," she recalls (link is external), "usually showing up late at night demanding an injection of the narcotic Demerol, the only thing that worked for her severe headaches.
One night the staff psychiatrist had the nurse give her an injection of saline instead. It worked!
He told Jane she had responded to a placebo, discussed the implications, and thought he'd helped her understand that her problem was psychological.
But as he was leaving the room, Jane asked, "Can I get that new medicine again next time instead of the Demerol? It really worked great!"
Because the article isn't about this particular patient, It doesn't go into detail about the history of the patient but immediately it came to my mind why did she always come in late at night?
No doubt that & other factors entered into the psychiatrist's decision to try the placebo.
Note that even after the psychiatrist told her that it was a placebo & discussed the implications of that factor, she still didn't seem to understand the underlying cause of her headaches was psychological.
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Post by matisse on Mar 9, 2015 9:09:45 GMT -5
What I believe in is the power of the mind to heal us. I think if we believe in something strongly enough our minds can heal our bodies. The placebo effect is a good example of what belief can do. We believe in the pill so the mind does the healing. Maybe that is what prayer is for some people. They believe in it strongly enough that the mind accepts it and does the healing? We do know that a sugar pill can cure in the double blind studies that have been done. I had a friend who ran a retirement village. At night she would give out the meds. Lots of sleeping tabs. She tried a vitamin tab the same color /size. No one was any the wiser. They slept like babies. For some, the fear or even just an anticipation of not being able to sleep can end up being as much of an impediment to sleeping as anything! It makes sense that a "sleeping" placebo could help.
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Post by rational on Mar 9, 2015 9:13:29 GMT -5
PS:the bible states theat Jesus Christ is our healer. Why wouldnt we go to him? First.even if it is on our way to ER..:) Because time after time it has been demonstrated that it has no effect? People scream a lot of things in moments of high emotion - pain, pleasure, surprise, fear, etc. God and Jesus just happen to be two of them. Others resort to those sharp, short, hard hitting Anglo-Saxons words. They all have the same effect!
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Post by rational on Mar 9, 2015 9:21:15 GMT -5
No I don't imagine it could. Maybe because no one believes that anything really cures cancer? Or the obvious, it takes drugs to cure cancer. But all of us have heard stories of tumors receding when patients are told there is a new cancer drug that helps and it's nothing but a sugar pill. How accurate any of the stories are is anyone's guess. But I imagine it's could happen if someone was given a pill and told it would absolutely help them, that it was brand new on the market and had a 100% cure rate. Spontaneous remission (spontaneous regression) is fairly common in medicine. Cancers that go away, or are dramatically reduced without medicine. While the placebo is not the agent that causes the remission it could put the body into a state where healing was more easily accomplished. Researchers are always interested in these cases to see how the person who experienced the remission differs from the general population.
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Post by rational on Mar 9, 2015 9:30:35 GMT -5
I had a friend who ran a retirement village. At night she would give out the meds. Lots of sleeping tabs. She tried a vitamin tab the same color /size. No one was any the wiser. They slept like babies. Your friend was committing an illegal act.
Unless she/he had the approval of the physician prescribing the medication to try the vitamin, she/he should never administer a substitute for a prescription medication without a valid order from a physician.
In effect, doing that constitutes practicing medicine without a medical license and is beyond the scope of a nurse's license. Administering medications without approval may give rise to legal liability and disciplinary action against that person.
For all she knows even a vitamin could have an adverse effect. Popular but Dangerous: 3 Vitamins That Can Hurt ... - Health health.usnews.com/health.../popular-but-dang..."Your friend" was actually perpetuating a fraud.
If one of those those people in that retirement home were a family member of mine, I would report "your friend" to the legal authorities. She would have her retirement home closed.
You might want to warn your friend of that fact. I would say you are leaping to conclusions that are not supported by what was posted. No one said the friend was not a doctor. No one said the friend was a nurse. No one said the residents/patients were under the care of a doctor or that the sleeping medication had been prescribed or were even prescription medication. They could well have been OTC medication. While it might be considered unethical to give people one substance when you were telling them they were getting another that is more of an ethical question than a legal question. I suppose it could become a legal question if they were being charged for some OTC sleeping medication but were in fact being given vitamins. Dispensing OTC medication falls well within a nurse's purview.
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Post by rational on Mar 9, 2015 9:36:11 GMT -5
Because the article isn't about this particular patient, It doesn't go into detail about the history of the patient but immediately it came to my mind why did she always come in l ate at night? Perhaps that is why little stories like this are known as anecdotal.
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Post by rational on Mar 9, 2015 9:38:55 GMT -5
Some people even say that when the telephone rings, or when their kid wants a favor, or when they see bad news on the TV. They all survive. :) I'm not used to yelling "God", so I forgot to do is the time we rolled over in our car. We all walked away. But then -- we WERE on our way to meeting. :) Perhaps you were using the time to control the car to lessen the impact instead of yelling out words!
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Post by snow on Mar 9, 2015 12:27:12 GMT -5
No I don't imagine it could. Maybe because no one believes that anything really cures cancer? Or the obvious, it takes drugs to cure cancer. But all of us have heard stories of tumors receding when patients are told there is a new cancer drug that helps and it's nothing but a sugar pill. How accurate any of the stories are is anyone's guess. But I imagine it's could happen if someone was given a pill and told it would absolutely help them, that it was brand new on the market and had a 100% cure rate. Spontaneous remission (spontaneous regression) is fairly common in medicine. Cancers that go away, or are dramatically reduced without medicine. While the placebo is not the agent that causes the remission it could put the body into a state where healing was more easily accomplished. Researchers are always interested in these cases to see how the person who experienced the remission differs from the general population. Yes, it would be interesting to know what state the placebo puts the body in that makes healing more easily accomplished. At least temporarily. Likely it helps people relax and not worry as much about their condition and that means less stress on the body so it has a better chance of healing? But if there are other factors involved in why placebos work, they would be interesting to know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 14:23:01 GMT -5
No I don't imagine it could. Maybe because no one believes that anything really cures cancer? Or the obvious, it takes drugs to cure cancer. But all of us have heard stories of tumors receding when patients are told there is a new cancer drug that helps and it's nothing but a sugar pill. How accurate any of the stories are is anyone's guess. But I imagine it's could happen if someone was given a pill and told it would absolutely help them, that it was brand new on the market and had a 100% cure rate. Spontaneous remission (spontaneous regression) is fairly common in medicine. Cancers that go away, or are dramatically reduced without medicine. While the placebo is not the agent that causes the remission it could put the body into a state where healing was more easily accomplished. Researchers are always interested in these cases to see how the person who experienced the remission differs from the general population. It has been rumoured for some time that Pau d' Arco Tea causes some cancers to disappear, wonder if there is any truth in that rumour.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 9, 2015 16:47:36 GMT -5
I recieve emails from HSI Alert. Ive had emails in the past from them stating cancer can be cured. The pharmacutical companys dont want us to know about.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 9, 2015 18:52:56 GMT -5
Your friend was committing an illegal act.
Unless she/he had the approval of the physician prescribing the medication to try the vitamin, she/he should never administer a substitute for a prescription medication without a valid order from a physician.
In effect, doing that constitutes practicing medicine without a medical license and is beyond the scope of a nurse's license. Administering medications without approval may give rise to legal liability and disciplinary action against that person.
For all she knows even a vitamin could have an adverse effect. Popular but Dangerous: 3 Vitamins That Can Hurt ... - Health health.usnews.com/health.../popular-but-dang..."Your friend" was actually perpetuating a fraud.
If one of those those people in that retirement home were a family member of mine, I would report "your friend" to the legal authorities. She would have her retirement home closed.
You might want to warn your friend of that fact. I would say you are leaping to conclusions that are not supported by what was posted. No one said the friend was not a doctor. No one said the friend was a nurse. No one said the residents/patients were under the care of a doctor or that the sleeping medication had been prescribed or were even prescription medication. They could well have been OTC medication. While it might be considered unethical to give people one substance when you were telling them they were getting another that is more of an ethical question than a legal question. I suppose it could become a legal question if they were being charged for some OTC sleeping medication but were in fact being given vitamins. Dispensing OTC medication falls well within a nurse's purview. I agree to a point, but bubbles did say the a friend "ran a retirement village . There is a difference between a "retirement village" and a "nursing home."
In a retirement village the people are able to care for themselves with some assistance.
They should be able to take any over the counter medications on their own, but might need medical assistance with any prescribed medication.
I am coming to this position as a retired Registered Nurse so I am aware of the legal implications of a medical professional giving an alternate medication rather than the one that was prescribed.
As an individual I am also concerned by the unregulated supplements on the market.
For instance, -I buy the children multiple vitamins because they have less Vitamin A. You can get too much of some vitamins, and Vitamin A is one of them
Look up Polar Bear liver.
My son kept telling me this until I finally googled it!
"acute hypervitaminosis A, "
"If you ever have the chance to try polar bear liver, think twice -- it may be the last meal you ever eat. The native peoples of the Arctic have never shied away from cooking up some polar bear stew, but they've long known to avoid eating the livers of various arctic creatures. Western explorers, however, learned the hard way. As early as 1596, explorers returned to Europe with accounts of horrible illnesses resulting from the consumption of polar bear liver "
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 9, 2015 18:57:19 GMT -5
PS:the bible states theat Jesus Christ is our healer. Why wouldnt we go to him? First.even if it is on our way to ER.. Because time after time it has been demonstrated that it has no effect? People scream a lot of things in moments of high emotion - pain, pleasure, surprise, fear, etc. God and Jesus just happen to be two of them. Others resort to those sharp, short, hard hitting Anglo-Saxons words. They all have the same effect! Now I wonder what they could be?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 9, 2015 19:43:11 GMT -5
I recieve emails from HSI Alert. Ive had emails in the past from them stating cancer can be cured. The pharmacutical companys dont want us to know about. Bubbles, I tried to research HSI Alert ( Health Sciences Institute) really didn't find them to be very reliable
I am always leery of conclusions that a group comes to when they want to sell you something as this group does.
When you google Health Sciences Institute, you find a link to "Products."
It lists NorthStar Nutritionals. for sale.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 9, 2015 19:43:18 GMT -5
Some people even say that when the telephone rings, or when their kid wants a favor, or when they see bad news on the TV. They all survive. I'm not used to yelling "God", so I forgot to do is the time we rolled over in our car. We all walked away. But then -- we WERE on our way to meeting. Perhaps you were using the time to control the car to lessen the impact instead of yelling out words! Actually, I was. I watched the whole thing -- the trees made a complete 360 in front of my eyes.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 9, 2015 19:45:15 GMT -5
My dear friend was a Matron. It was back in the 50s. She has since passed. I loved her we met working together in delivery suite.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 9, 2015 19:45:36 GMT -5
Because time after time it has been demonstrated that it has no effect? People scream a lot of things in moments of high emotion - pain, pleasure, surprise, fear, etc. God and Jesus just happen to be two of them. Others resort to those sharp, short, hard hitting Anglo-Saxons words. They all have the same effect! Now I wonder what they could be? Is this medium closed circuit? ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 9, 2015 23:09:16 GMT -5
My dear friend was a Matron. It was back in the 50s. She has since passed. I loved her we met working together in delivery suite. Does "Matron" mean a registered nurse, as nurses are also called in England?
1950 was when I began nurse's training.
I do know it would have been unethical, as well as illegal, for a professional nurse replace a prescribed medication with something else, -even a vitamin.
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Post by rational on Mar 9, 2015 23:09:39 GMT -5
I recieve emails from HSI Alert. Ive had emails in the past from them stating cancer can be cured. The pharmacutical companys dont want us to know about. Why would the pharmaceutical companies not want us to know about them? Health Science Institute (HSI - AKA Agora Publishing) is somewhat of a fraud company. So you had a message from Jennifer Thompson touting the benefits of AGS (Sapogenin). Remember the people who flocked to Mexico to be treated with apricot seed extract (laetrile)? This is much the same. More Detail On Laetrile.For insight into how this kind of thing harms people: www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/brian-clement-and-the-hippocrates-health-institute-finally-under-the-spotlight/
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2015 3:33:54 GMT -5
Bubbles, the whole "purpose" of relationship with God is not to avoid the problems and tragedies of life. In fact a cursory reading of the bible shows that many who honored God had a terrible life AS A RESULT. Abraham believed in God's promised land - but wound up leaving his home to become a nomad. Look at Joseph - many like him never got to be where he eventually wound up. John the Baptist ended up in jail, and then executed. As for the twelve who followed Jesus, only one lived to be an old man.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2015 5:12:12 GMT -5
Bubbles, the whole "purpose" of relationship with God is not to avoid the problems and tragedies of life. In fact a cursory reading of the bible shows that many who honored God had a terrible life AS A RESULT. Abraham believed in God's promised land - but wound up leaving his home to become a nomad. Look at Joseph - many like him never got to be where he eventually wound up. John the Baptist ended up in jail, and then executed. As for the twelve who followed Jesus, only one lived to be an old man. Yes, and Stephen was brutally stoned to death, with Saul/ Paul consenting.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 10, 2015 5:54:45 GMT -5
Bubbles, the whole "purpose" of relationship with God is not to avoid the problems and tragedies of life. In fact a cursory reading of the bible shows that many who honored God had a terrible life AS A RESULT. Abraham believed in God's promised land - but wound up leaving his home to become a nomad. Look at Joseph - many like him never got to be where he eventually wound up. John the Baptist ended up in jail, and then executed. As for the twelve who followed Jesus, only one lived to be an old man. Prueb Not sure what comment you are responding too. Having a reconciled relationship with the almighty doesnt guarantee us a smooth ride on earth no.
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Post by magpie on Mar 10, 2015 17:47:02 GMT -5
Grow away from childish things. Now,study the Epistle of James (Jesus half brother)He A leader of the early church ,and it is a great instruction manual,read and cross reference and some good commentries. Answers "ALL" above. Then resume the debate with equal knowledge.
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Post by rational on Mar 10, 2015 17:57:01 GMT -5
Prueb Not sure what comment you are responding too. Having a reconciled relationship with the almighty doesnt guarantee us a smooth ride on earth no. It seems that having or not having a reconciled relationship with the almighty makes no difference.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 10, 2015 19:13:35 GMT -5
Prueb Not sure what comment you are responding too. Having a reconciled relationship with the almighty doesnt guarantee us a smooth ride on earth no. It seems that having or not having a reconciled relationship with the almighty makes no difference. There are many benefits.
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Post by rational on Mar 10, 2015 19:58:13 GMT -5
It seems that having or not having a reconciled relationship with the almighty makes no difference. There are many benefits. And some of those many benefits are...?
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