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Post by rational on Mar 6, 2015 1:01:44 GMT -5
What civilization used a radix of 6 (or 7) system of numbers? I was confused by your post though. If the highest digit was "6" then it would be radix 7 and the highest value represented by 2 digits would be 48. No matter what radix, the highest 2-digit number would not be 36. I don't know now what ethnic group exactly used this system, but I do know it was located in Mesopotamia. Not their digits, but using Arabic numerals they would count 1,2,3,4,5,6,11,12,13,14,15,16,21,22 ...... No zero, of course. But the radix (I'm not a mathematician, thanks for the new term) you mentioned would work very well if one wanted to credit Methusela's age to that one. That is, if you believed it in the first place, but then, that's just me. Using a senary (radix 6) numeral system makes sense if you have 5 digits! I was aware of its use by a few cultures but not in cultures as old as those arising in Mesopotamia. Actually I believe they would count 1,2,3,4,5,10,11,12,13,14,15,20,21,22,23,24,25,30,etc. Of course, as you noted, the zeros would simply be spaces. In "hand-counting" zero was represented by a closed fist and the numbers by extended digits. Two hands would allow up to a count of (35) 10.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 13:02:54 GMT -5
Do you really think anything that comes out of Liberty University is unbiased? Everything they do is subordinate to their fundamentalist doctrine. Based upon this logic, who should pay any attention to that which comes out of the atheists and/or agnostics who post so biasedly on this board and every where else? Every thing they do is subordinate to their non-believing doctrine, is it not?
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 7, 2015 16:05:14 GMT -5
Do you really think anything that comes out of Liberty University is unbiased? Everything they do is subordinate to their fundamentalist doctrine. Based upon this logic, who should pay any attention to that which comes out of the atheists and/or agnostics who post so biasedly on this board and every where else? Every thing they do is subordinate to their non-believing doctrine, is it not?So I'm a liar. I get it -- you don't mind liars if they're promoting Christianity. Historically, it's been a tacitly sanctioned acceptable type of lie among Christians.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 7, 2015 16:08:51 GMT -5
Based upon this logic, who should pay any attention to that which comes out of the atheists and/or agnostics who post so biasedly on this board and every where else? Every thing they do is subordinate to their non-believing doctrine, is it not? So I'm a liar. I get it -- you don't mind liars if they're promoting Christianity. Historically, it's been a tacitly sanctioned acceptable type of lie among Christians. Right!
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Post by bubbles on Mar 7, 2015 19:38:14 GMT -5
Ewww nasty! My atheist friend who has had an aweful battle with bowel cancer for 2yrs. Wounds not healing for 18mths. Recently rushed to hospital with AF. When I asked if there is anything I can do? He replied "please pray." As you can imagine. My jaw dropped.
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Post by rational on Mar 7, 2015 20:46:22 GMT -5
Ewww nasty! My atheist friend who has had an aweful battle with bowel cancer for 2yrs. Wounds not healing for 18mths. Recently rushed to hospital with AF. When I asked if there is anything I can do? He replied "please pray." As you can imagine. My jaw dropped. Why? Studies show that the knowledge of being prayed for is the only time prayer makes a difference. Of course, in some of the studies those with the knowledge of being prayed for had negative results.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 7, 2015 22:58:32 GMT -5
Ewww nasty! My atheist friend who has had an aweful battle with bowel cancer for 2yrs. Wounds not healing for 18mths. Recently rushed to hospital with AF. When I asked if there is anything I can do? He replied "please pray." As you can imagine. My jaw dropped. Has he stated that he was an atheist?
Are you assuming that he must be an atheist because he isn't a Christian?
Could he be trying to be nice to you, knowing that was what you would like to hear?
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Post by bubbles on Mar 7, 2015 23:41:14 GMT -5
Ewww nasty! My atheist friend who has had an aweful battle with bowel cancer for 2yrs. Wounds not healing for 18mths. Recently rushed to hospital with AF. When I asked if there is anything I can do? He replied "please pray." As you can imagine. My jaw dropped. Why? Studies show that the knowledge of being prayed for is the only time prayer makes a difference. Of course, in some of the studies those with the knowledge of being prayed for had negative results. Forget the studies it binds your thoughts..(anyone ever tell you you sound like a broken record?) Only because it is you asking I will be vulnerable for a moment. 2yrs ago my friend was diagnosed with bowel cancer. Within days he was having one test after another. Then he was told he needed both chemo and radiotherapy. It was a shock and very confronting for him. My heart went out to the guy. He had been strong healthy all his life. No flu ever. I wanted to comfort him. Be there for him. I wanted to offer to pray but dare not...he would have given me full on rant. Instead I asked lets agree together you wont have any side effects. He agreed. He then had surgery nrly died twice and was in hospital for months. With wounds not healing. When he was dispondant I would be positive and say lets keep believing. The docs told him that when the wounds finally healed he would need another course of chemo. Just to make sure there were no more active cells.. For some reason I had a bad feeling about him having another course of chemo. I couldnt shake the sense of dread. The wounds took 18mth to heal. Then they did the tests. Doc decided he didnt need any chemo. That was January? I was elated. He had answered prayer three times. One day my friend accused me if 'willing his healing'. I was praising my maker. Then another shock rushed into hosp with AF and pulminary odema. You cant tell me there is no almighty creator who doesnt care. I just dont believe you. Because to me he is real. My friend has been brave. I take my hat of to him. As long as he needs prayer I will provide it. Stand on the prayers ive believed for him and see it through. When we met he made it very clear he is atheist. He has a strong aversion to RCC pedophila etc. I told him I am a christian.. I asked one day is that going to be a problem. I would have walked if it had. He laughed and assured me no as long as I dont preach to him. I havent and would not. I respect his stance.
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Post by rational on Mar 8, 2015 1:47:09 GMT -5
Why? Studies show that the knowledge of being prayed for is the only time prayer makes a difference. Of course, in some of the studies those with the knowledge of being prayed for had negative results. Forget the studies it binds your thoughts..(anyone ever tell you you sound like a broken record?) The truth and reality does not change. If prayer was the answer to curing your friend one cannot help wondering why he was in the hospital for treatment. What makes you think it was not the treatment he received in hospital that prevented his death? I too have been health problems. I elected to receive treatment because I was ill and wanted to get better. I elected to get treatment in the hospital because people who were treated in the hospital had far superior outcomes than those who relied only on prayer. I had multiple procedures and survived. Of course, that is why I chose to have the procedures rather than just gathering a bunch of people to pray for my recovery - I actually wanted to get better. In fact in test after test it was shown that prayer, when the target was unaware, had no effect at all. Your anecdotal story proves nothing other than you were a supportive friend.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 8, 2015 3:07:57 GMT -5
Forget the studies it binds your thoughts..(anyone ever tell you you sound like a broken record?) The truth and reality does not change. I too have been health problems. I elected to receive treatment because I was ill and wanted to get better. I elected to get treatment in the hospital because people who were treated in the hospital had far superior outcomes than those who relied only on prayer. I had multiple procedures and survived. Of course, that is why I chose to have the procedures rather than just gathering a bunch of people to pray for my recovery - I actually wanted to get better. In fact in test after test it was shown that prayer, when the target was unaware, had no effect at all. Your anecdotal story proves nothing other than you were a supportive friend. He is just like you. Wants to get well. Trusts the medical profession. I was surprised he asked for prayer. Im truely very sorry you have been ill.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 8, 2015 3:33:18 GMT -5
Why? Studies show that the knowledge of being prayed for is the only time prayer makes a difference. Of course, in some of the studies those with the knowledge of being prayed for had negative results. Forget the studies it binds your thoughts..(anyone ever tell you you sound like a broken record?) Bubbles, do you think that the renowned Mayo Clinic would "bind" your thoughts?
The Mayo clinic, which is known and admired for its achievement? "A 2001 double-blind study at the Mayo Clinic randomized 799 discharged coronary surgery patients into a control group and an
intercessory prayer group, which received prayers at least once a week from 5 intercessors per patient.
Analyzing "primary end points" (death, cardiac arrest, rehospitalization, etc.) after 26 weeks, the researchers concluded "intercessory
prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit."
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Post by snow on Mar 8, 2015 11:54:12 GMT -5
What I believe in is the power of the mind to heal us. I think if we believe in something strongly enough our minds can heal our bodies. The placebo effect is a good example of what belief can do. We believe in the pill so the mind does the healing. Maybe that is what prayer is for some people. They believe in it strongly enough that the mind accepts it and does the healing? We do know that a sugar pill can cure in the double blind studies that have been done.
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Post by rational on Mar 8, 2015 14:48:48 GMT -5
What I believe in is the power of the mind to heal us. I think if we believe in something strongly enough our minds can heal our bodies. The placebo effect is a good example of what belief can do. We believe in the pill so the mind does the healing. Maybe that is what prayer is for some people. They believe in it strongly enough that the mind accepts it and does the healing? We do know that a sugar pill can cure in the double blind studies that have been done. There are times when no matter how much a person believes, that healing will not happen. The studies regarding prayer are done, usually, so the subject is not aware of being prayed for. That would eliminate the placebo effect.
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Post by snow on Mar 8, 2015 15:07:44 GMT -5
What I believe in is the power of the mind to heal us. I think if we believe in something strongly enough our minds can heal our bodies. The placebo effect is a good example of what belief can do. We believe in the pill so the mind does the healing. Maybe that is what prayer is for some people. They believe in it strongly enough that the mind accepts it and does the healing? We do know that a sugar pill can cure in the double blind studies that have been done. There are times when no matter how much a person believes, that healing will not happen. The studies regarding prayer are done, usually, so the subject is not aware of being prayed for. That would eliminate the placebo effect. I don't see praying for someone as a placebo effect in the same sense as a sugar pill, but I do think it could contribute if the person believed prayer worked and they knew they were being prayed for. Again because they believe it can do something. I agree, there are always times when nothing works. I do believe we have the power in our minds to heal. How else do we explain sugar pills helping people when they think they are taking a drug that will cure? Obviously it wasn't the drug. Possibly it is the mind believing it's healed. Lots of research and studies are starting on why placebos work. Will be interesting to follow as they progress.
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Post by rational on Mar 8, 2015 17:52:38 GMT -5
I don't see praying for someone as a placebo effect in the same sense as a sugar pill, but I do think it could contribute if the person believed prayer worked and they knew they were being prayed for. Two points - 1) The standard definition of placebo is "a harmless pill, medicine, or procedure prescribed more for the psychological benefit to the patient than for any physiological effect." Unless there is some verification that prayer works how does it differ from a sugar pill? 2) In a substantial number of people who were informed they were being prayed for fared worse than those not being prayed for. One theory was that when the patient learned that there was a prayer effort being made they believed that their situation was worse than they were told/believed and were depressed and did not fare as well. And there are times when things do work. Or seem to work. One must be careful of selection basis.Or is there is less stress because of their belief in a cure and their bodily functions are 'relaxed', allowing their bodies to heal more effectively.Always good to look for data, facts, and determine the truth rather than attribute it to something else/unknown.
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Post by snow on Mar 8, 2015 17:59:19 GMT -5
I don't see praying for someone as a placebo effect in the same sense as a sugar pill, but I do think it could contribute if the person believed prayer worked and they knew they were being prayed for. Two points - 1) The standard definition of placebo is "a harmless pill, medicine, or procedure prescribed more for the psychological benefit to the patient than for any physiological effect." Unless there is some verification that prayer works how does it differ from a sugar pill? 2) In a substantial number of people who were informed they were being prayed for fared worse than those not being prayed for. One theory was that when the patient learned that there was a prayer effort being made they believed that their situation was worse than they were told/believed and were depressed and did not fare as well. And there are times when things do work. Or seem to work. One must be careful of selection basis.Or is there is less stress because of their belief in a cure and their bodily functions are 'relaxed', allowing their bodies to heal more effectively.Always good to look for data, facts, and determine the truth rather than attribute it to something else/unknown. I am not attributing it to something unknown. I am asking questions about something that is unknown. That is why I am interested in the studies so the unknown becomes known. At the moment no one knows why placebos work.
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Post by rational on Mar 8, 2015 18:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Mar 8, 2015 18:32:03 GMT -5
Based upon this logic, who should pay any attention to that which comes out of the atheists and/or agnostics who post so biasedly on this board and every where else? Every thing they do is subordinate to their non-believing doctrine, is it not? Not certain that atheists, as such, have much of a doctrine. "I don't believe god exists." is pretty simple. Other than the non-existence of a paranormal being there is not much doctrine for anything to be subordinate to.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 8, 2015 19:56:21 GMT -5
What I believe in is the power of the mind to heal us. I think if we believe in something strongly enough our minds can heal our bodies. The placebo effect is a good example of what belief can do. We believe in the pill so the mind does the healing. Maybe that is what prayer is for some people. They believe in it strongly enough that the mind accepts it and does the healing? We do know that a sugar pill can cure in the double blind studies that have been done. I had a friend who ran a retirement village. At night she would give out the meds. Lots of sleeping tabs. She tried a vitamin tab the same color /size. No one was any the wiser. They slept like babies.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 8, 2015 20:04:31 GMT -5
Ratz and snow There is something in what you say. When I belonged to churches they had prayer chains where people who loved to pray (didnt find it a chore) would pray for every request on the prayer chain list. It comforted people. I know when I needed surgery I was stressed and afraid. 3 wks before the ops I relaxed and stopped worrying. It all went smoothly. The comfort factor does help you relax. Also prayer is a positive. Positive energy overcomes negative energy. It feels good when you know someone is praying. Also I think the love factor is linked with it because no one would unless they 'cared'
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Post by bubbles on Mar 8, 2015 20:10:57 GMT -5
PS:the bible states theat Jesus Christ is our healer. Why wouldnt we go to him? First.even if it is on our way to ER.. Theres been a few times in my life where I have escaped death on the road. Ive screamed his name instinctively in that split second of avoiding impact. I know non christians have as well.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 8, 2015 20:16:28 GMT -5
What I believe in is the power of the mind to heal us. I think if we believe in something strongly enough our minds can heal our bodies. The placebo effect is a good example of what belief can do. We believe in the pill so the mind does the healing. Maybe that is what prayer is for some people. They believe in it strongly enough that the mind accepts it and does the healing? We do know that a sugar pill can cure in the double blind studies that have been done. Snow, a sugar pill can't "cure" any actual severe kind of illness like cancer. It just can't!
Not when you have a known severe disease! Placebo effect can relieve symptoms, pain, nausea and such but it doesn't effect any kind of "cure" for the disease itself.www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/clinicaltrials/placebo-effect
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 8, 2015 20:27:54 GMT -5
PS:the bible states theat Jesus Christ is our healer. Why wouldnt we go to him? First.even if it is on our way to ER.. Theres been a few times in my life where I have escaped death on the road. Ive screamed his name instinctively in that split second of avoiding impact. I know non christians have as well. That is your clue! ;)You screamed his name instinctively!
For the same reason that non Christians did the same!
Suppose someone screamed his name but died rather than living to say that they had done so?
How would we ever know?
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Post by xna on Mar 8, 2015 20:41:34 GMT -5
PS:the bible states theat Jesus Christ is our healer. Why wouldnt we go to him? First.even if it is on our way to ER.. Theres been a few times in my life where I have escaped death on the road. Ive screamed his name instinctively in that split second of avoiding impact. I know non christians have as well. youtu.be/m2MPuk0SkPA
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Post by snow on Mar 8, 2015 21:26:16 GMT -5
Yes, I would, and did, find that interesting. We know they do work. They work best if we think/believe they will work. I found the other aspects involved to make us believe in the medication even more eg. size of pill, and the hierarchy with surgery topping the list. But they really don't address how our thinking something will work because we've been told it will, actually makes it work. Does the brain treat it like it is a reality and that's why we heal? We also know there is a negative placebo effect (Nocebo) so that would also be interesting to know how we can have a negative reaction to a sugar pill if we think it will harm us.
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Post by snow on Mar 8, 2015 21:30:09 GMT -5
Ratz and snow There is something in what you say. When I belonged to churches they had prayer chains where people who loved to pray (didnt find it a chore) would pray for every request on the prayer chain list. It comforted people. I know when I needed surgery I was stressed and afraid. 3 wks before the ops I relaxed and stopped worrying. It all went smoothly. The comfort factor does help you relax. Also prayer is a positive. Positive energy overcomes negative energy. It feels good when you know someone is praying. Also I think the love factor is linked with it because no one would unless they 'cared' That is the biggest part of it imo. It makes people feel comforted because people are showing they care. It would relax and Rational is right, when we relax our body has a better chance of healing. I know that prayer has a very negative connotation for me so I doubt it would work well in my case.
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Post by snow on Mar 8, 2015 21:36:11 GMT -5
What I believe in is the power of the mind to heal us. I think if we believe in something strongly enough our minds can heal our bodies. The placebo effect is a good example of what belief can do. We believe in the pill so the mind does the healing. Maybe that is what prayer is for some people. They believe in it strongly enough that the mind accepts it and does the healing? We do know that a sugar pill can cure in the double blind studies that have been done. Snow, a sugar pill can't "cure" any actual severe kind of illness like cancer. It just can't!
Not when you have a known severe disease! Placebo effect can relieve symptoms, pain, nausea and such but it doesn't effect any kind of "cure" for the disease itself.www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/clinicaltrials/placebo-effectNo I don't imagine it could. Maybe because no one believes that anything really cures cancer? Or the obvious, it takes drugs to cure cancer. But all of us have heard stories of tumors receding when patients are told there is a new cancer drug that helps and it's nothing but a sugar pill. How accurate any of the stories are is anyone's guess. But I imagine it's could happen if someone was given a pill and told it would absolutely help them, that it was brand new on the market and had a 100% cure rate.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 8, 2015 21:40:19 GMT -5
I had a friend who ran a retirement village. At night she would give out the meds. Lots of sleeping tabs. She tried a vitamin tab the same color /size. No one was any the wiser. They slept like babies. Your friend was committing an illegal act.
Unless she/he had the approval of the physician prescribing the medication to try the vitamin, she/he should never administer a substitute for a prescription medication without a valid order from a physician.
In effect, doing that constitutes practicing medicine without a medical license and is beyond the scope of a nurse's license. Administering medications without approval may give rise to legal liability and disciplinary action against that person.
For all she knows even a vitamin could have an adverse effect. Popular but Dangerous: 3 Vitamins That Can Hurt ... - Health health.usnews.com/health.../popular-but-dang..."Your friend" was actually perpetuating a fraud.
If one of those those people in that retirement home were a family member of mine, I would report "your friend" to the legal authorities. She would have her retirement home closed.
You might want to warn your friend of that fact.
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