|
Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 14:07:32 GMT -5
If Saul, Cornelius had disregard Jesus instruction for them go and see, and be baptized by Ananias, and Peter..... would they still be SAVED if they had disobeyed, and refused to follow his instruction where to get help? So why did you tell Maryhig that you didn't need to be a 2x2 to be saved? No Mary I don't know them, I haven't been to Ireland much, but some of the meeting do to visit family. I will ask them :-)
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 14:14:54 GMT -5
did you see my post. Did you know Patricia Roberts. Jesus was the final sacrifice. do you not think that was God's plan? Jesus could have callee a legion of angels to save him from the Cross but he didn't because he knew it was the father'ss will for him to die on the Cross. There could be no resurrection without his death. Sorry sent from my phone. If Jesus hadn't have gone through to the end then Satan would have had a hold over him. Because Jesus had to take everything Satan through at him and take it and show love, that is how we overcame him! Even going as far as dying on the Cross, but that doesn't mean that saves us! What does take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me mean? And what is the death in that chapter I've just posted, what does show his death till he comes mean? It's not us being crucified! So what is it? God knew what Satan would do, it was foretold and Jesus was willing to go through it and show love right to the end of his life! The sacrifice wasn't on the wooden Cross, it was on his body the cross, he denied Satan in his heart. This is the Cross we have to bare!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 14:32:10 GMT -5
Phil 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross
The are 2 deaths here, one is death to sin in his body by not letting Satan in. and one is the death on the Cross!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 17:19:59 GMT -5
Nathan, we can never say people are going to hell! There was a woman in the Bible who asked Jesus to have her sons on his right and his left, he said it's not for him to decide it's for his father that is in heaven to decide. The thief on the Cross got in at the last minutes of his life! We can't say only one religion can get in. Jesus didn't say follow a religion, he said follow me! A lot of people would have thought Saul had no hope holding the stoners coats when Stephen was being stoned Stephen being a strong man of God as well! but God had other plans. I'd be too afraid to judge people like that, we don't know the depths of each others hearts. Only God knows that. I can see you love him passionately. But you must be careful what you say. The only way to God is through the life of Jesus. By taking up our cross, denying ourselves it and following him. He wouldn't have said this if we didn't have to do it! Look at this Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. We have to do this daily, that's what Paul was doing when he said "I die daily" narrow is the way, it's not as easy as to just say "I believe!" I believe everyone has a chance, right up to the last breath in our body But we also have to be careful what we say about God. It's not right to mock him either! Here are Jesus words... in Matthew 7:21-28
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine.
Jesus warns in Matthew 7:13-16 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
The apostle John wrote in IJohn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are from God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
God's servants and people are like sign posts along the highway of life... to guide and warns others about the danger of icy roads, curve around the corner, watch out for cliffs, etc.
But we don't know where anyone is going when we die, only God knows! We can't say anyone it's going to hell. Our minds aren't like Gods mind,we have to leave that in his hands. And we can't say only one religion is going to heaven either! God looks at the heart. Not what church we attend!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 4, 2015 3:42:35 GMT -5
Nathan, we can never say people are going to hell! There was a woman in the Bible who asked Jesus to have her sons on his right and his left, he said it's not for him to decide it's for his father that is in heaven to decide. The thief on the Cross got in at the last minutes of his life! We can't say only one religion can get in. Jesus didn't say follow a religion, he said follow me! A lot of people would have thought Saul had no hope holding the stoners coats when Stephen was being stoned Stephen being a strong man of God as well! but God had other plans. I'd be too afraid to judge people like that, we don't know the depths of each others hearts. Only God knows that. I can see you love him passionately. But you must be careful what you say. The only way to God is through the life of Jesus. By taking up our cross, denying ourselves it and following him. He wouldn't have said this if we didn't have to do it! Look at this Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. We have to do this daily, that's what Paul was doing when he said "I die daily" narrow is the way, it's not as easy as to just say "I believe!" I believe everyone has a chance, right up to the last breath in our body But we also have to be careful what we say about God. It's not right to mock him either! Here are Jesus words... in Matthew 7:21-28
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine.
Jesus warns in Matthew 7:13-16 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
The apostle John wrote in IJohn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are from God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
God's servants and people are like sign posts along the highway of life... to guide and warns others about the danger of icy roads, curve around the corner, watch out for cliffs, etc.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Exactly Nathan those web do the will of my father! His will was to listen to his son and have faith. "this is my beloved son, we hear him! " Jesus told up to take our cross, deny ourselves and follow him! What do you think this means? Narrow is the way Nathan, that means it's not easy And giving up sin in the heart isn't easy, when you hate, hated is strong if we don't put it away from our hearts it Gets worse! The only way we can do this is to let Christ in! Because he overcame it all, he can help us fight it to! Just like smoking, if you start doing it then it's hard to stop! But we have to stop doing it to stay well! Whatever we've done wrong and we let into our hearts has to go once we know God! If we don't have to do anything, what does this mean then? Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which arethese; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Unfortunately Christians that believe like you put too much emphasis on his death.,than his life! He said he had finished the work he was sent to do before he went on the Cross!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 4, 2015 4:02:41 GMT -5
Quote: .........But because sin will be with us until our last minute on earth, we can never hope to live a righteous life. So in that case we can't always be saved because we sin! What if a man says he believes,goes to church on Sunday, it's told he's saved. The purposely sins all week. Then there is another man who doesn't know God who tries his hardest to live a life where he reaches out and cares and shows love from his heart? Which one do you think God would look at? We all sin but we can't purposely sin and think we're saved because we believe! I've actually been told this by a few Christians. That regardless of what they do, they are going to be saved! The only way we at saved in this life is by letting Christ into our hearts and showing us sin, this saving is from Satan and reconciling is to God! Religion makes Jesus' life of none effect! It's all his death What about, take up your cross, Deny yourself and follow me! What do you think this means? What about, those who endure to the end the same shall be saved? His apostles didn't think like that, they lived it out! As did Paul when he said I die daily. He meant the old Paul was gone because he let Christ in! He didn't live to please himself he denied himself and followed Jesus! And pleased God! Those men of God wouldn't have had to have done this if they just had to believe to be saved! Paul tells us clearly in many places that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. If we turn to Christ, believe in Him and accept Him as our Saviour then we are saved - the Bible is very clear on this. Paul also clearly answers the question re continuing sin in Romans 6. Christianity (or religion as you put it) does not make Jesus' life of none effect at all - it puts the emphasis on His death and resurrection which is where it should be. Unfortunately, the 2x2 church puts the emphasis on Jesus' life and humanity and far less on His death and resurrection and deity. The 2x2 church needs to seriously rethink this because it is out of step with God's Word. I haven't met a Christian who loves the Lord who has ever said "I'm saved - I can do what I want". That statement is so far moved from reality. I've heard workers preach this but in my experience, it's fanciful preaching - workers like to believe that this is the case. But it's not the case. Clearly, in response to the gift of salvation we need to put on Christ. We need to die to self and to follow Jesus. But we can only do that with God's help and the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Our response to being justified/saved by faith is that we should love to obey Christ and follow Him - we won't do that perfectly, we'll continue to sin and make mistakes to the day we die but God's grace and love will cover us and give us continued forgiveness as we seek His help. Let me ask you a question. If you died suddenly today (I hope this doesn't happen!!) will you be saved? Are you saved at this very minute? Have you already been justified? Do you have assurance of salvation, right now, not because of what you have done, but because you trust in the promises of the One who has saved you? (Which is exactly what the men of God did in the OT and NT) If you don't have assurance, then what will give it to you? What extra things do you need to do to be saved and when will you be righteous or good enough to enter heaven? When we left the 2x2 church we asked the Head Worker in NSW whether we should have assurance of our salvation because of what Christ had done for us. His answer - we don't like our people to feel assured of their salvation. We then asked him whether he felt assured of his salvation. The response - yes. Why? Because he was a worker. So we moved to a fellowship where the gospel was preached as it was taught by Jesus and the Apostles - "where all are God's children because of their faith in Jesus. Where there is no longer Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female - for we are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26, 28) If we have faith we will do! To have faith in Jesus is to believe, if you believe you'll do! As I've said before I can have faith and believe a teacher but if I don't do what he says I won't see the end result. Paul also said I die daily, what does this mean? What does take up your cross and deny yourself and follow me, mean if you just have to say OK I believe I'm saved, and I've even heard people say what date they were saved on! Doesn't God have a say in that not man? And what does this mean? And read the last sentence! Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which arethese; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,dolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. And this For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. What death is this? It's not the death on the cross! Paul: Wicked hand killed the prince of life! Peter: They slew him and hung him from a tree Jesus: John 7 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? There is nothing to glorify in murder especially murdering Gods son!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 4:15:32 GMT -5
Very good and helpful thoughts, but we must strive for righteousness and a bench mark has been set for us: our righteousness must "exceed" the righteousness of the Pharisees in order for us to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus himself said so. The Pharisees were deemed to be self righteous. Agree - but the only way our righteousness can possibly exceed that of the Pharisees (who were particularly careful to follow God's law) is to trust completely in the righteousness of Christ. We are told that by faith we are justified ie made completely right with God. Abraham also had righteousness credited to him by his faith and trust in God. Yes, the Pharisees were deemed to be self-righteous. I'm conscious that if our complete trust is in anything other than Christ (ie in a ministry, in a church, in a particular style of worship, in a particular preacher or in saying we have to do this or do that to somehow be saved) then Jesus would also call us self-righteous in our day - ie we believe that the complete provision that God has made for us is not quite enough - we somehow have to do more to warrant salvation. If I do this, I continue to be bound by "the law" and "by sin" as Paul so directly told the Galatians. If we have true freedom (from sin) in Christ then why would we want to be bound up in trying to be good enough to warrant God's favour? You've got it brother, I agree. Jesus set the example, He marked out the course, we should not add to it or subtract from it, by competing with one another or condemning one another, because we will not be asked to give account of others, just ourselves. Having said that we can give encouragement to others, or we can discourage others If we tread a contrary path from that set out by Christ Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 4, 2015 4:21:35 GMT -5
Quote: .........But because sin will be with us until our last minute on earth, we can never hope to live a righteous life. So in that case we can't always be saved because we sin! What if a man says he believes,goes to church on Sunday, it's told he's saved. The purposely sins all week. Then there is another man who doesn't know God who tries his hardest to live a life where he reaches out and cares and shows love from his heart? Which one do you think God would look at? We all sin but we can't purposely sin and think we're saved because we believe! I've actually been told this by a few Christians. That regardless of what they do, they are going to be saved! The only way we at saved in this life is by letting Christ into our hearts and showing us sin, this saving is from Satan and reconciling is to God! Religion makes Jesus' life of none effect! It's all his death What about, take up your cross, Deny yourself and follow me! What do you think this means? What about, those who endure to the end the same shall be saved? His apostles didn't think like that, they lived it out! As did Paul when he said I die daily. He meant the old Paul was gone because he let Christ in! He didn't live to please himself he denied himself and followed Jesus! And pleased God! Those men of God wouldn't have had to have done this if they just had to believe to be saved! Paul tells us clearly in many places that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. If we turn to Christ, believe in Him and accept Him as our Saviour then we are saved - the Bible is very clear on this. Paul also clearly answers the question re continuing sin in Romans 6. Christianity (or religion as you put it) does not make Jesus' life of none effect at all - it puts the emphasis on His death and resurrection which is where it should be. Unfortunately, the 2x2 church puts the emphasis on Jesus' life and humanity and far less on His death and resurrection and deity. The 2x2 church needs to seriously rethink this because it is out of step with God's Word. I haven't met a Christian who loves the Lord who has ever said "I'm saved - I can do what I want". That statement is so far moved from reality. I've heard workers preach this but in my experience, it's fanciful preaching - workers like to believe that this is the case. But it's not the case. Clearly, in response to the gift of salvation we need to put on Christ. We need to die to self and to follow Jesus. But we can only do that with God's help and the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Our response to being justified/saved by faith is that we should love to obey Christ and follow Him - we won't do that perfectly, we'll continue to sin and make mistakes to the day we die but God's grace and love will cover us and give us continued forgiveness as we seek His help. Let me ask you a question. If you died suddenly today (I hope this doesn't happen!!) will you be saved? Are you saved at this very minute? Have you already been justified? Do you have assurance of salvation, right now, not because of what you have done, but because you trust in the promises of the One who has saved you? (Which is exactly what the men of God did in the OT and NT) If you don't have assurance, then what will give it to you? What extra things do you need to do to be saved and when will you be righteous or good enough to enter heaven? When we left the 2x2 church we asked the Head Worker in NSW whether we should have assurance of our salvation because of what Christ had done for us. His answer - we don't like our people to feel assured of their salvation. We then asked him whether he felt assured of his salvation. The response - yes. Why? Because he was a worker. So we moved to a fellowship where the gospel was preached as it was taught by Jesus and the Apostles - "where all are God's children because of their faith in Jesus. Where there is no longer Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female - for we are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26, 28) No i don't feel assured that I'm saved, because I can go wrong at anytime! Like the thief on the Cross went right at the last minute, I can go wrong So what does, those that endure to the end the same shall be saved mean? If we're already saved? And I'm glad you found a church that suits you, but the church that suits me is the church of Christ which is following a living, loving Jesus and his life not a dead suffering one on a wooden cross! For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Mar 4, 2015 4:42:35 GMT -5
Maryhig without reading all your posts didn't you say you have 3 home meetings in Ireland or where are the home meetings you attend? Do you use the Hymn book called Hymns Old & New or do you use any hymn book and what one do you use? Tell us when your church meetings started?
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 4, 2015 4:54:07 GMT -5
Agree - but the only way our righteousness can possibly exceed that of the Pharisees (who were particularly careful to follow God's law) is to trust completely in the righteousness of Christ. We are told that by faith we are justified ie made completely right with God. Abraham also had righteousness credited to him by his faith and trust in God. Yes, the Pharisees were deemed to be self-righteous. I'm conscious that if our complete trust is in anything other than Christ (ie in a ministry, in a church, in a particular style of worship, in a particular preacher or in saying we have to do this or do that to somehow be saved) then Jesus would also call us self-righteous in our day - ie we believe that the complete provision that God has made for us is not quite enough - we somehow have to do more to warrant salvation. If I do this, I continue to be bound by "the law" and "by sin" as Paul so directly told the Galatians. If we have true freedom (from sin) in Christ then why would we want to be bound up in trying to be good enough to warrant God's favour? You've got it brother, I agree. Jesus set the example, He marked out the course, we should not add to it or subtract from it, by competing with one another or condemning one another, because we will not be asked to give account of others, just ourselves. Having said that we can give encouragement to others, or we can discourage others If we tread a contrary path from that set out by Christ Jesus. Partaker You know what your right, I've said enough of how I believe there's no point in arguing. Everyone has to go with their hearts. And a someone once told me, speak what you hear in your heart, even if you lose friends because you're doing it to please God! But there comes a time when you've said enough! I came here trying to find people who love God like I do. And all I find its arguing and hatred! and now I'm getting pulled in because I can't stand by and let people say it was OK to kill the son of God because he saved me! Partaker I love God with all my heart and soul, and I love Jesus for what he's done for me, and I'm so grateful for the people who gave up their lives in each generation to pass him down to me. I came here hoping to find friendship, other people that go to meetings and believe like me, but I now I'm not so sure I was right. Because If they also believe that Jesus had to die on a wooden cross to save us then they're not for me! If anyone believes that it's only their religion that's saved then it's not for me! In my heart I truly believe God loves everyone, and he doesn't love me anymore than anyone else in this world. Whatever religion, whether we believe or not, he just wants us back! But arguing on here isn't going to prove anything. God bless partaker, and I hope you're life is fulfilled in God! But I can't stay somewhere where everyone is trying to put Jesus to death. The ones who don't believe put him to death by denying him, and the others on here from what I see who do believe put him to death on a wooden cross and all glorify it! What's shocked me most is the atheists can see it's wrong to murder a man, but the people who believe in God can't! God said though shalt not kill, and he doesn't lie! May God bless you all, each and everyone of you in your lives Mary
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 7:52:19 GMT -5
I think NathanB having been a worker has little to do with his faith and his thinking. Workers learn their profession from other Workers who have also been self taught. Thus their knowledge is purely 2x2 doctrine. Ministers of main stream Churches, go to University and study Theology. They get a much better understanding of the Christian faith, including history. They are better qualified to understand the profession. In my 60 years I have dealt with both, so do know which one is better qualified. All I say is you need to get out and meet them, otherwise you will never know. I understand the point that you are making and it is generally true; but some folks are born with a gift, and are experts in their fields, they have never been to university or institution of higher education and yet experts marvel at their knowledge competence in their particular fields. I don't know for certainty if religeon would be an exception. The Apostles never went to any colleges of higher learning but I believe that they had one of the greatest, if not the greatest, teacher in the world, Christ Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Mar 4, 2015 9:11:37 GMT -5
You've got me wrong rational I mean a fleshy sinful life, this is what God is displeased with, this is what he sees as a filthy rag, and we will have it until the day we leave this body! But he loves us, and when we turn away from this then he is pleased with us! Your material being is as much a part of you as the non-material part. My understanding is that theists believe god created man. That raises the question of why an all-knowing being would create an entity who had characteristics that s/he views as revolting.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Mar 4, 2015 12:46:46 GMT -5
Hi Maryhig I think you may have missed my post before.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you said earlier that you heard William Irvine started your way and that your uncle heard Cooney growing up but that you prefer to say that Jesus started it and not Irvine. It interesting as am I correct in thinking you might be part of the meetings that knew Edward Cooney as I am not sure if others are aware there are still some although i did hear there were some in Wales.
Do you use the hymn book Hymns OLD AND New?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 15:12:33 GMT -5
Hi Maryhig I think you may have missed my post before. Correct me if I'm wrong but you said earlier that you heard William Irvine started your way and that your uncle heard Cooney growing up but that you prefer to say that Jesus started it and not Irvine. It interesting as am I correct in thinking you might be part of the meetings that knew Edward Cooney as I am not sure if others are aware there are still some although i did hear there were some in Wales. Do you use the hymn book Hymns OLD AND New? I believe that cooneyites as they are sometime referred to still exist in Australia, New Zealand, possibly in Wales and Ireland, if I am not mistaken, not sure if they are any in England or Scotland.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 4, 2015 17:54:48 GMT -5
Isn't religious snobbery to be telling another Christian what 'is more important' than what they think is important?
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Mar 4, 2015 18:07:14 GMT -5
Isn't religious snobbery to be telling another Christian what 'is more important' than what they think is important? When I have fellowship with another believer. Usually what happens is as we chat and talk about god stuff there is a flow of what we understand. When my heart is open then whatever the other person is saying my spirit will confirm or not if it is true. Vice versa. This is one way we learn and grow. Now if a person with an attitude is commenting it can affect what they are trying to say. Even truth can come across as harsh or heavy.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 18:37:08 GMT -5
Workers learn their profession from other Workers who have also been self taught. Thus their knowledge is purely 2x2 doctrine. Ministers of main stream Churches, go to University and study Theology. They get a much better understanding of the Christian faith, including history. They are better qualified to understand the profession. In my 60 years I have dealt with both, so do know which one is better qualified. All I say is you need to get out and meet them, otherwise you will never know. I understand the point that you are making and it is generally true; but some folks are born with a gift, and are experts in their fields, they have never been to university or institution of higher education and yet experts marvel at their knowledge competence in their particular fields. I don't know for certainty if religeon would be an exception. The Apostles never went to any colleges of higher learning but I believe that they had one of the greatest, if not the greatest, teacher in the world, Christ Jesus. Partaker, when I have a health problem, I go to see a Doctor who has qualified at University. Never would I think of going to see a self taught Doctor. For our spiritual health we also need to talk to a professional, rather than a self taught person. The problem with being self taught in house, you get a very narrow way of thinking. You miss the big picture.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Mar 4, 2015 19:20:27 GMT -5
There are parents who try and teach their children too but I would prefer to be taught from a trained teacher. Bible college is just learning from others who have gone before , not much different from the workers learning from an older worker but far more effective. Learning at school achieves so much more than just listening to a few people who are self taught. Self taught people often get it wrong. Learn from people who have studied and know what they are talking about.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Mar 4, 2015 19:25:29 GMT -5
From what I understand there are just some Cooneyites left in Ireland and maybe Wales it seems. Those in Australia have died and there are none left in NZ But Cherie would know best as I am just trying to remember what I've read.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 4, 2015 22:52:15 GMT -5
Isn't religious snobbery to be telling another Christian what 'is more important' than what they think is important? When I have fellowship with another believer. Usually what happens is as we chat and talk about god stuff there is a flow of what we understand. When my heart is open then whatever the other person is saying my spirit will confirm or not if it is true. Vice versa. This is one way we learn and grow. Now if a person with an attitude is commenting it can affect what they are trying to say. Even truth can come across as harsh or heavy. And that I understand somewhat. It just seems very arrogant when people come on here and tear apart what someone else believes and tells them basically that their belief is just wrong. Considering that the existence of God in the first place is not provable it seems to me rather pointless to be arguing over which interpretation of what this being wants. I see it all the time with exes who are now part of other Christian churches that happen to hold a different belief. All of a sudden they 'know the truth' and everyone else is wrong. Yet they don't seem to have any concept of how that appears to everyone else.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 4, 2015 23:33:49 GMT -5
When I have fellowship with another believer. Usually what happens is as we chat and talk about god stuff there is a flow of what we understand. When my heart is open then whatever the other person is saying my spirit will confirm or not if it is true. Vice versa. This is one way we learn and grow. Now if a person with an attitude is commenting it can affect what they are trying to say. Even truth can come across as harsh or heavy. And that I understand somewhat It just seems very arrogant when people come on here and tear apart what someone else believes and tells them basically that their belief is just wrong. Considering that the existence of God in the first place is not provable it seems to me rather pointless to be arguing over which interpretation of what this being wants. I see it all the time with exes who are now part of other Christian churches that happen to hold a different belief. All of a sudden they 'know the truth' and everyone else is wrong. Yet they don't seem to have any concept of how that appears to everyone else. It appears to me is that perhaps they want to trade one sect of Christianity for another.
Yet some here will deny that isn't true.
They will say that "really, any other Christian church would be fine with them."
Yet by their admittance they look around to find one that "suits" their own view.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 3:22:48 GMT -5
There are parents who try and teach their children too but I would prefer to be taught from a trained teacher. Bible college is just learning from others who have gone before , not much different from the workers learning from an older worker but far more effective. Learning at school achieves so much more than just listening to a few people who are self taught. Self taught people often get it wrong. Learn from people who have studied and know what they are talking about. I agree, but learned professional people get it wrong sometimes and make serious mistakes and get sued in courts of law, we cannot deny that fact. Personally, given a choice, I would go to a prefessionally trained person rather than a "quack" or a "cow boy."
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Mar 5, 2015 6:11:53 GMT -5
When I have fellowship with another believer. Usually what happens is as we chat and talk about god stuff there is a flow of what we understand. When my heart is open then whatever the other person is saying my spirit will confirm or not if it is true. Vice versa. This is one way we learn and grow. Now if a person with an attitude is commenting it can affect what they are trying to say. Even truth can come across as harsh or heavy. And that I understand somewhat. It just seems very arrogant when people come on here and tear apart what someone else believes and tells them basically that their belief is just wrong. Considering that the existence of God in the first place is not provable it seems to me rather pointless to be arguing over which interpretation of what this being wants. I see it all the time with exes who are now part of other Christian churches that happen to hold a different belief. All of a sudden they 'know the truth' and everyone else is wrong. Yet they don't seem to have any concept of how that appears to everyone else. My answer to that is that everyone is at a different rate of spiritual growth. I know for myself when I began attending another church in my zeal and passion I lacked wisdom with my elders from the meetings. My parents relatives.. No at the time I had no clue how I sounded. It was yrs later I saw how I had come across.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 5, 2015 12:09:06 GMT -5
And that I understand somewhat It just seems very arrogant when people come on here and tear apart what someone else believes and tells them basically that their belief is just wrong. Considering that the existence of God in the first place is not provable it seems to me rather pointless to be arguing over which interpretation of what this being wants. I see it all the time with exes who are now part of other Christian churches that happen to hold a different belief. All of a sudden they 'know the truth' and everyone else is wrong. Yet they don't seem to have any concept of how that appears to everyone else. It appears to me is that perhaps they want to trade one sect of Christianity for another.
Yet some here will deny that isn't true.
They will say that "really, any other Christian church would be fine with them."
Yet by their admittance they look around to find one that "suits" their own view.
Yes it does appear that way. Not that there is anything wrong with picking the one that resonates for you. That is our right, and something we should likely do. Where I draw the line is when someone comes on here like Maryhig who has different views she gets told that her views are wrong and if you don't interpret the bible the way we do, you are interpreting it wrong. I have found those who believe in the Trinity to be very intolerant of those who do not. In a world where God isn't even provable it is almost amusing, if it didn't do so much harm. It divides those in the same religion, those who believe in essentially the same God etc. That's just unfortunate imo.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 5, 2015 13:37:55 GMT -5
Yes it does appear that way. Not that there is anything wrong with picking the one that resonates for you. That is our right, and something we should likely do. Where I draw the line is when someone comes on here like Maryhig who has different views she gets told that her views are wrong and if you don't interpret the bible the way we do, you are interpreting it wrong. I have found those who believe in the Trinity to be very intolerant of those who do not. In a world where God isn't even provable it is almost amusing, if it didn't do so much harm. It divides those in the same religion, those who believe in essentially the same God etc. That's just unfortunate imo. To the Unbelievers, Atheists, Agnostics God isn't provable but to us who are believers, God is provable in our own lives, and we KNOW He/they exist because they answers our prayers, helping, watching, protecing us in our daily lives.
God said in Revelation 21:5-8 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and ladymongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
So because you believe in a certain version or interpretation of a God, that gives you the right to say other's interpretation or version of God is wrong? I don't say you are wrong for believing there is a god. I believe it's important for people to have the beliefs they have. The only time I don't like it is if those beliefs are harming someone. Then I have an issue with them. And there you go again, belittling those who do not believe in a God. It's not 'provable' to us because of who we are. Yet when people ask you to show us how it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to you and others who say it's provable we always get the same answer. You won't share those kinds of things because people might pick them apart. So how are those of us supposed to believe it's provable if no one has the courage to share how it's provable?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 5, 2015 14:29:36 GMT -5
So because you believe in a certain version or interpretation of a God, that gives you the right to say other's interpretation or version of God is wrong? I don't say you are wrong for believing there is a god. I believe it's important for people to have the beliefs they have. The only time I don't like it is if those beliefs are harming someone. Then I have an issue with them. ~~ I just show another side of interpretation it is up to the readers to believe it or not.... because their Salvation depends upon it. And there you go again, belittling those who do not believe in a God. It's not 'provable' to us because of who we are. Yet when people ask you to show us how it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to you and others who say it's provable we always get the same answer. You won't share those kinds of things because people might pick them apart. So how are those of us supposed to believe it's provable if no one has the courage to share how it's provable? ~~ Those were the words of God the Almighty and it is up to people whether they believe it or NOT.. God has shown himself to us/believers in different ways for us to believe in His existence. I have shared many things, which God has shown me on here. I have written down my testimony for anyone who is interested to read it how God has changed my life.Nathan, hiding behind scripture making it look like it's God that wants people to feel like they are inferior to those who 'know', is rather an interesting technique. There is a difference between 'just giving your side of interpretation' and actually saying someone else's interpretation is wrong. That's what has been happening on this thread to Maryhig. She doesn't profess in the 2x2's so she isn't saved because of that. And, she doesn't believe in the cross being the idea behind Christ, but his life and people here are telling her how wrong she is about that. There is a difference between sharing what we believe and actually telling others that their beliefs are wrong isn't there? A good example of that is those who believe in the Trinity. Anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity certainly gets told that they are interpreting the bible wrong and have it pointed out over and over how the bible 'clearly says Jesus is God' etc. I have no problem with people saying they believe in the Trinity or not. It's personal and based on interpretation. Why does it have to be such a dividing line between people who worship the same God? I don't understand that. So much I don't understand I guess.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 5, 2015 21:31:52 GMT -5
Nathan, I totally believe you should share your beliefs and that is what Maryhig has done. What I don't understand is why it's okay to tell her that her beliefs are false after she has shared them? That is what I think is over the line. Of course she has the right to her belief and her choices. But the wording of many posts regarding her beliefs leads one to understand that her interpretation is wrong. That, I suppose, is also your belief, but I don't see how it's a good thing.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Mar 5, 2015 23:33:03 GMT -5
But we also have to be careful what we say about God. It's not right to mock him either! Why would god care what anyone said about him/her? Poor self esteem? Fragile ego? But you are right about the mocking. Remember the children who mocked god indirectly when they called his/her mouthpiece bald? Destroyed by bears! No one wants that. Well, not most people.
|
|