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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 3, 2015 3:38:33 GMT -5
It doesn't matter WHEN the idea came about or from whom.
The idea that people "had to learn through a worker in order to be saved!" was part & parcel of the whole belief system of the 2x2's all the time I was growing up!
The workers certainly took that part of "Omega Message" and used it to the fullest! Neither you nor any one else can tell me differently!
I lived through that time, Nathan!
You didn't!
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Post by Mary on Mar 3, 2015 4:02:37 GMT -5
I would hope that those whose faith is in Jesus and have been taught and still believe that their church was started by Jesus would be shocked to find out that what they had been taught was not true. Any believing Christian would be shocked to know that what they have been taught was not true. A person whose faith is in the workers would not be shocked because the workers can do no wrong to them. A person's whose faith is in Jesus would be shocked. The truth is opposite of what you said Nathan. You said a person's whose faith is in Jesus would not be shocked. I say a person's whose faith is in Jesus would be shocked but a person's whose faith is in the workers would not be shocked. it would not upset or shock them.
Different denominations does not mean they do not believe and accept each other as being saved. Most mainstream churches are one and believe we are all the body of Christ. Those they do not accept are those who claim they are the only way, whose beliefs we do not accept which are called cults by mainstream Christians and of their own choice are not a part of mainstream Christianity. Mainstream churches mostly accept each other. Nothing wrong with different fellowships. It is a 2x2 belief that mainstream churches do not accept each other. If I felt God has called me to start a church then there is nothing wrong with me starting one. Our local churches have combined services. The Baptist, Anglican, Presbyterian all have combined services a few times a years. Churches in the area come together, pastors pray for the community and offer support to each other.
Ross goes to one denomination and I go to another but I would love to fellowship in his church with him. We are all the body of Christ. What we do not accept is a church that claims it is the true church, this is different from mainstream Churches who accept one another. I have lots of different denominations in my area. I visited several of them and settled on one that I could walk to as I love to walk to church and choose the one nearest me. That and because I like a church that is lively.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 4:38:41 GMT -5
It doesn't matter WHEN the idea came about or from whom.
The idea that people "had to learn through a worker in order to be saved!" was part & parcel of the whole belief system of the 2x2's all the time I was growing up!
The workers certainly took that part of "Omega Message" and used it to the fullest! Neither you nor any one else can tell me differently!
I lived through that time, Nathan!
You didn't!
I've never heard of being saved by men before isn't that a terrible thing to say! Only God can save us. I heard a Christian woman on TV one day calling people unsaved! I couldn't believe my ears! How in earth does she know who is saved and who isn't.! I bet they thought that about the thief on the Cross, but he was saved in the last hours of his life wasn't he! And the story of the Samaritan was about people who thought they were holy that walked by a man in need. Yet the Samaritan who was looked on as nothing by the Jew's stopped and helped him! Which one had a heart that was closer to God? The one with love in it! Not the religion, and we can get too sure of ourselves once we start on the"i'm saved" route, and can start looking down at others! Imagine calling another person unsaved! To me this is a sin! Those who endure to the end, the same shall be saved, jesus said. I can't believe your church taught you this when you were young, I've always been taught that a man can bring you to God, but only God can save, and Jesus his son through his life! Only God knows the hearts of men, we are sinners! That's unbelievable what you were taught!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 5:12:15 GMT -5
Not quite right. There are quite a number of professing folk who will say that William Irvine started the group in the late 1800's. Let's not kid ourselves for a minute that it's just the exes who believe that. None of this is all that important at all. What is important and what will make a Difference in the end is living a righteous life that pleases God and which earns us a place in God's Kingdom of Heaven. As regards places of worship, where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus, He promised to be in the midst of them. He did not particularly specify any specific places of worship, but the way to Heaven is straight and narrow, and few will find it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 3, 2015 5:48:40 GMT -5
It doesn't matter WHEN the idea came about or from whom.
The idea that people "had to learn through a worker in order to be saved!" was part & parcel of the whole belief system of the 2x2's all the time I was growing up!
The workers certainly took that part of "Omega Message" and used it to the fullest! Neither you nor any one else can tell me differently!
I lived through that time, Nathan!
You didn't!
Can you tell me what is "Omega Message" is? Yes, I can but I'm tired & it is past 4 in the morning.
Can YOU tell ME what the Omega Message consists of?
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Mar 3, 2015 7:15:22 GMT -5
None of this is all that important at all. What is important and what will make a Difference in the end is living a righteous life that pleases God and which earns us a place in God's Kingdom of Heaven. As regards places of worship, where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus, He promised to be in the midst of them. He did not particularly specify any specific places of worship, but the way to Heaven is straight and narrow, and few will find it. The only challenge is that you and I cannot live a righteous life that pleases God - it's simply impossible. We can try as hard as we want but we will never please God. God wants us to put our faith and trust in Him - to believe Him and to love Him - the One who has redeemed us and paid the price for our sins. If our faith and trust is completely in Christ when we stand before God on judgement day, he will not see our sin, but he will see Jesus, the one who has made us righteous. Abraham and all those in the OT who lived before Christ came and were mentioned in Hebrews 11 - they couldn't live a righteous life. It was their faith and trust in God that resulted in God crediting them with righteousness (ie removing their sin) - Galatians 3, Obviously, in response to God's grace and what He has done for us in Christ we should love to do His will, obey Him and love and serve others. But because sin will be with us until our last minute on earth, we can never hope to live a righteous life. Righteousness is a gift that God can only give, it's a price that God can only pay. It was paid at Calvary. And thankfully, He has given us the gift of His Holy Spirit to change our vile bodies and make us in this life more like Jesus. Just some thoughts...
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 7:58:06 GMT -5
The only challenge is that you and I cannot live a righteous life that pleases God - it's simply impossible. We can try as hard as we want but we will never please God. God wants us to put our faith and trust in Him - to believe Him and to love Him - the One who has redeemed us and paid the price for our sins. If our faith and trust is completely in Christ when we stand before God on judgement day, he will not see our sin, but he will see Jesus, the one who has made us righteous. Abraham and all those in the OT who lived before Christ came and were mentioned in Hebrews 11 - they couldn't live a righteous life. It was their faith and trust in God that resulted in God crediting them with righteousness (ie removing their sin) - Galatians 3, Obviously, in response to God's grace and what He has done for us in Christ we should love to do His will, obey Him and love and serve others. But because sin will be with us until our last minute on earth, we can never hope to live a righteous life. Righteousness is a gift that God can only give, it's a price that God can only pay. It was paid at Calvary. And thankfully, He has given us the gift of His Holy Spirit to change our vile bodies and make us in this life more like Jesus. Just some thoughts... Yes we can please God if we have faith and follow his son. John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. Hebrews 13:16 - But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 8:15:34 GMT -5
Quote: .........But because sin will be with us until our last minute on earth, we can never hope to live a righteous life.
So in that case we can't always be saved because we sin!
What if a man says he believes,goes to church on Sunday, it's told he's saved. The purposely sins all week. Then there is another man who doesn't know God who tries his hardest to live a life where he reaches out and cares and shows love from his heart? Which one do you think God would look at? We all sin but we can't purposely sin and think we're saved because we believe! I've actually been told this by a few Christians. That regardless of what they do, they are going to be saved!
The only way we at saved in this life is by letting Christ into our hearts and showing us sin, this saving is from Satan and reconciling is to God!
Religion makes Jesus' life of none effect! It's all his death
What about, take up your cross, Deny yourself and follow me! What do you think this means?
What about, those who endure to the end the same shall be saved?
His apostles didn't think like that, they lived it out!
As did Paul when he said I die daily. He meant the old Paul was gone because he let Christ in! He didn't live to please himself he denied himself and followed Jesus! And pleased God!
Those men of God wouldn't have had to have done this if they just had to believe to be saved!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 8:36:29 GMT -5
The only challenge is that you and I cannot live a righteous life that pleases God - it's simply impossible. We can try as hard as we want but we will never please God. God wants us to put our faith and trust in Him - to believe Him and to love Him - the One who has redeemed us and paid the price for our sins. If our faith and trust is completely in Christ when we stand before God on judgement day, he will not see our sin, but he will see Jesus, the one who has made us righteous. Abraham and all those in the OT who lived before Christ came and were mentioned in Hebrews 11 - they couldn't live a righteous life. It was their faith and trust in God that resulted in God crediting them with righteousness (ie removing their sin) - Galatians 3, Obviously, in response to God's grace and what He has done for us in Christ we should love to do His will, obey Him and love and serve others. But because sin will be with us until our last minute on earth, we can never hope to live a righteous life. Righteousness is a gift that God can only give, it's a price that God can only pay. It was paid at Calvary. And thankfully, He has given us the gift of His Holy Spirit to change our vile bodies and make us in this life more like Jesus. Just some thoughts... Very good and helpful thoughts, but we must strive for righteousness and a bench mark has been set for us: our righteousness must "exceed" the righteousness of the Pharisees in order for us to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus himself said so. The Pharisees were deemed to be self righteous.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 8:44:14 GMT -5
The only challenge is that you and I cannot live a righteous life that pleases God - it's simply impossible. We can try as hard as we want but we will never please God. God wants us to put our faith and trust in Him - to believe Him and to love Him - the One who has redeemed us and paid the price for our sins. If our faith and trust is completely in Christ when we stand before God on judgement day, he will not see our sin, but he will see Jesus, the one who has made us righteous. Abraham and all those in the OT who lived before Christ came and were mentioned in Hebrews 11 - they couldn't live a righteous life. It was their faith and trust in God that resulted in God crediting them with righteousness (ie removing their sin) - Galatians 3, Obviously, in response to God's grace and what He has done for us in Christ we should love to do His will, obey Him and love and serve others. But because sin will be with us until our last minute on earth, we can never hope to live a righteous life. Righteousness is a gift that God can only give, it's a price that God can only pay. It was paid at Calvary. And thankfully, He has given us the gift of His Holy Spirit to change our vile bodies and make us in this life more like Jesus. Just some thoughts... Very good and helpful thoughts, but we must strive for righteousness and a bench mark has been set for us: our righteousness must "exceed" the righteousness of the Pharisees in order for us to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus himself said so. The Pharisees were deemed to be self righteous. The only righteousness in us is Christ in our hearts if we let him in. We aren't righteousness at all, we are sinners. But if we let him in and live it out we please God! How much more will God be pleased with us if we follow his son? I see myself as nothing in God's eyes we are but filthy rags, this flesh it's full of sin! But I try to live a life that pleases him because I love him and his son! And by letting Christ into our hearts and enduring to the end we can be saved! I can't do this myself though only Jesus can help me to do this because he did endure to the end and overcame the world which is the way of Satan!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 9:51:55 GMT -5
I like how "righteousness" is defined and explained on : Christianity.about.com
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 10:31:43 GMT -5
I like how "righteousness" is defined and explained on : Christianity.about.com I will have a look partaker :-)
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Post by rational on Mar 3, 2015 10:35:31 GMT -5
I see myself as nothing in God's eyes we are but filthy rags, this flesh it's full of sin! Are we still talking about the god of love? Imagine a child that believes his/her parents consider him/her to be nothing more than a sin filled filthy rag. What kind of relationship do you think they might have? Where does the love enter into this relationship? Would you want to date/marry someone who looked at you as trash? Imagine your daughter telling you the man she is seeing considers her to be a sl ut but she is going to try to win his love. I am trying to understand why a person would want a relationship with someone who believed they were worthless. It seems sad that it is how you view yourself.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 11:00:51 GMT -5
I see myself as nothing in God's eyes we are but filthy rags, this flesh it's full of sin! Are we still talking about the god of love? Imagine a child that believes his/her parents consider him/her to be nothing more than a sin filled filthy rag. What kind of relationship do you think they might have? Where does the love enter into this relationship? Would you want to date/marry someone who looked at you as trash? Imagine your daughter telling you the man she is seeing considers her to be a sl ut but she is going to try to win his love. I am trying to understand why a person would want a relationship with someone who believed they were worthless. It seems sad that it is how you view yourself. You've got me wrong rational I mean a fleshy sinful life, this is what God is displeased with, this is what he sees as a filthy rag, and we will have it until the day we leave this body! But he loves us, and when we turn away from this then he is pleased with us! We will always have sin in our hearts, so we can never be perfect because we sin everyday! But with Christ in our hearts we can slowly overcome sin, the more we leave off the sins of this life, the stronger we get in God! Christ in our hearts shows us right from wrong! He can do this because he never sinned! He fought Satan on his own ground and won! John 16: 3 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Romans 7:12 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Choose this day whom you serve, Do we choose to listen to the right conscience which is the holy spirit in the heart or sin and temptation,which is Satan? If we listen to Satan then this is what God is displeased with, because he is filthy rags in his sight and turns us into them But Christ in our hearts can overcome him
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Post by Mary on Mar 3, 2015 11:09:28 GMT -5
Many places we are called righteous. Noah, Abraham, and many OT prophets were called righteous. Christ has made us clean, so to speak.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 11:16:15 GMT -5
Rational, I don't see myself as anything special, I just love God. The day I start seeing myself as special and good is the day I start thinking people are unsaved and start looking down on them, I don't want this. A man said to Jesus"good master! " and Jesus said to him "why do you call me good, there's none good but God! "
So if Jesus never thought of himself as good, what right have I to? I'm happy staying as a servant I don't want to be a king!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 11:23:15 GMT -5
Many places we are called righteous. Noah, Abraham, and many OT prophets were called righteous. Christ has made us clean, so to speak. It was because they listened to God Mary and let him in their heart and lived to please him! Not living to please themselves. The only way to God is through his son, Christ is from everlasting to everlasting. He was in the hearts of the prophets also! He had to come here to show is how to live because the people were being taught wrong! Now we have no excuse!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 11:29:53 GMT -5
I've never heard of being saved by men before isn't that a terrible thing to say! Only God can save us. I heard a Christian woman on TV one day calling people unsaved! I couldn't believe my ears! How in earth does she know who is saved and who isn't.! I bet they thought that about the thief on the Cross, but he was saved in the last hours of his life wasn't he! And the story of the Samaritan was about people who thought they were holy that walked by a man in need. Yet the Samaritan who was looked on as nothing by the Jew's stopped and helped him! Which one had a heart that was closer to God? The one with love in it! Not the religion, and we can get too sure of ourselves once we start on the"i'm saved" route, and can start looking down at others! Imagine calling another person unsaved! To me this is a sin! Those who endure to the end, the same shall be saved, jesus said. I can't believe your church taught you this when you were young, I've always been taught that a man can bring you to God, but only God can save, and Jesus his son through his life! Only God knows the hearts of men, we are sinners! That's unbelievable what you were taught! The apostles, the followers of Jesus, the workers, the friends Can't Save anyone! They can only direct, point people to Jesus. It's Jesus who SAVES us. The followers of Jesus are like sign posts along the highway of life, they are to guide, point us to the true destination which is Jesus our Lord Jesus and Savior.
Before sending out the 12 messengers Jesus said in Matthew 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. Jesus sent out another 70 messengers in Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Ah right, well how come a lot of people on here are saying that the only way to God is through one of the workers and to be saved is only through them. I totally understand that a man can bring God to a person, just like all the apostles did! But it's though the life of Jesus does God saves us.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 11:41:01 GMT -5
Nathan I liked the bit about followers being signposts along the highway of life,
I also see the people of God like lighthouses sitting on a rock, giving light in the darkness. Guiding people back to God
God loves all of us, he just wants us back!
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 11:42:16 GMT -5
Ah right, well how come a lot of people on here are saying that the only way to God is through one of the workers and to be saved is only through them. I totally understand that a man can bring God to a person, just like all the apostles did! But it's though the life of Jesus does God saves us. I don't know. The workers and the friends can't save ANYONE, they can only lead, guide, help and point others to follow Jesus. It was Jesus who died for our sins NOT the workers. The workers are messengers NOT the Savior. It's Jesus who SAVES us.OK, right I'm off to make tea :-)
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Post by snow on Mar 3, 2015 12:12:53 GMT -5
Most of the exes believe it, some of 2x2 believe that also, and maybe a few workers believe WI is the founder.... However, most of the friends and workers do NOT believe WI is the founder of the 2x2 which base their faith in Jesus Christ as the Chief cornerstone. Nathan, you seem to have a problem believing people when they say they are a founder of a particular sect. You deny Waldo started the Waldesens yet he says so in a lot of places that he did found them. Now you are claiming William doesn't know what he's talking about when he says he is the one that founded the 2x2's. It doesn't get much clearer in both cases. They both state quite clearly they founded those groups. Yet you don't believe them?
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Post by snow on Mar 3, 2015 12:30:42 GMT -5
Ah right, well how come a lot of people on here are saying that the only way to God is through one of the workers and to be saved is only through them. I totally understand that a man can bring God to a person, just like all the apostles did! But it's though the life of Jesus does God saves us. I don't know. The workers and the friends can't save ANYONE, they can only lead, guide, help and point others to follow Jesus. It was Jesus who died for our sins NOT the workers. The workers are messengers NOT the Savior. It's Jesus who SAVES us.But you must profess and be baptized by a worker in that group in order to be saved. You have told me over and over Nathan that unless I am a member of your group I am going to hell. So that means a bit more than 'lead' them to the truth. It also means you must be part of that group or you don't have a chance in hell, pardon the pun. It is why I quit professing and being part of the group. I didn't agree with that kind of rhetoric. It means that only a couple thousand people worldwide are going to heaven. That concept made the Christian god a monstrous being imo. It meant that a majority of my family, whom I loved, were going to hell. I decided to join them if that was what was needed because there is no way I will worship a God that damns that many people to hell for eternity. Thankfully it's all bogus, but it is what is taught in the 2x2 group. I know because I got called the 'spawn of the devil' when I questioned the workers about it.
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Post by snow on Mar 3, 2015 12:46:07 GMT -5
Nathan, you seem to have a problem believing people when they say they are a founder of a particular sect. You deny Waldo started the Waldesens yet he says so in a lot of places that he did found them. Now you are claiming William doesn't know what he's talking about when he says he is the one that founded the 2x2's. It doesn't get much clearer in both cases. They both state quite clearly they founded those groups. Yet you don't believe them? I have shown you many times that Peter Waldo was NOT the founder of Vaudois/Waldenses in 1170 A.D. because that group has existed more than 1000 yrs before he was born. Around 1170 Peter Waldo, a RCC Frenchman became a follower and eventually a preacher of the Vaudois.
William Irvine, a Faith Mission preacher who decided to Return or continue Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic ministry and fellowship with the help of others John Long, Edward Cooney, George Walker, etc... Without John Long, Edward Cooney, George Walker, Jack/Bill Caroll, etc... there wouldn't be any 2x2 church to begin with. God had given John Long, and Edward Cooney with similar revelation as WI... Why? weren't they include as founders?No Nathan, you have not shown me anything many times. Waldo started the group and they were more catholic in their beliefs than anything the 2x2's believe. You have just chosen to ignore that fact and ignore that Waldo said many times he started the group. Irvine started the 2x2's and then the rest of them joined him in the expansion of the group.
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Post by snow on Mar 3, 2015 12:46:56 GMT -5
But you must profess and be baptized by a worker in that group in order to be saved. You have told me over and over Nathan that unless I am a member of your group I am going to hell. So that means a bit more than 'lead' them to the truth. It also means you must be part of that group or you don't have a chance in hell, pardon the pun. It is why I quit professing and being part of the group. I didn't agree with that kind of rhetoric. It means that only a couple thousand people worldwide are going to heaven. That concept made the Christian god a monstrous being imo. It meant that a majority of my family, whom I loved, were going to hell. I decided to join them if that was what was needed because there is no way I will worship a God that damns that many people to hell for eternity. Thankfully it's all bogus, but it is what is taught in the 2x2 group. I know because I got called the 'spawn of the devil' when I questioned the workers about it. If Saul, Cornelius had disregard Jesus instruction for them go and see, and be baptized by Ananias, and Peter..... would they still be SAVED if they had disobeyed, and refused to follow his instruction where to get help? So why did you tell Maryhig that you didn't need to be a 2x2 to be saved?
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Post by Mary on Mar 3, 2015 13:05:22 GMT -5
We are saved through through the death of Jesus. If he did not die on the Cross we could not be forgiven our sins. salvation is in the Cross. He came to be our sacrifice.
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Post by Mary on Mar 3, 2015 13:37:17 GMT -5
Hi Maryhig
Did you know Patricia Roberts in or near Enniskillen?
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 13:39:58 GMT -5
We are saved through through the death of Jesus. If he did not die on the Cross we could not be forgiven our sins. salvation is in the Cross. He came to be our sacrifice. Mary, if that is the case, can you tell me what death this is then please? After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drinkit, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. I'm not trying to argue it's just my heart tells me it was wrong to kill him :-)
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Post by maryhig on Mar 3, 2015 14:06:10 GMT -5
So why did you tell Maryhig that you didn't need to be a 2x2 to be saved? It's Jesus who SAVES! Jesus shows people to follow the sign posts on the highway of life and you must follow and if you disobey... it will led you to a DEAD END road. Nathan, we can never say people are going to hell! There was a woman in the Bible who asked Jesus to have her sons on his right and his left, he said it's not for him to decide it's for his father that is in heaven to decide. The thief on the Cross got in at the last minutes of his life! We can't say only one religion can get in. Jesus didn't say follow a religion, he said follow me! A lot of people would have thought Saul had no hope holding the stoners coats when Stephen was being stoned Stephen being a strong man of God as well! but God had other plans. I'd be too afraid to judge people like that, we don't know the depths of each others hearts. Only God knows that. I can see you love him passionately. But you must be careful what you say. The only way to God is through the life of Jesus. By taking up our cross, denying ourselves it and following him. He wouldn't have said this if we didn't have to do it! Look at this Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. We have to do this daily, that's what Paul was doing when he said "I die daily" narrow is the way, it's not as easy as to just say "I believe!" I believe everyone has a chance, right up to the last breath in our body But we also have to be careful what we say about God. It's not right to mock him either!
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