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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 21:26:43 GMT -5
I'd have to agree with Jesus, that divorce is grudgingly granted because of the hardness of the hearts. Especially damned would be Christians who could recite the 70x7 parable practically by heart, not to mention the example of the grace of God toward themselves. What's more, in this day and age, with marriage counseling available, there's even less excuse. And yet, among Christians there's more divorce than ever. I know of at least one church here who's majority members are rejects from the Catholic church because of their divorce. So then I come across this... Love by the numbers, 36 questions, and one hour, and you can fall in love with even a stranger. www.wpr.org/shows/love-numbersI suspect those who want to divorce, no longer want to sit down with their spouse, and go through this exercise together, and be open to the possibilities of life and love. I suspect Donald Trump's attitude reigns, If you have to work at it, it's not working. Not a good example or attitude I think.
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Post by Mary on Feb 27, 2015 21:38:13 GMT -5
Often one party is willing but the other is not. Takes 2 to work on it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 23:18:29 GMT -5
I think you're right Mary, which is probably why the question is so important, religiously speaking, did you divorce, or were you divorced. Irregardless of the technical facts, it always amazes me how both parties feel "abandoned" by the other, the biblical justification for divorce. So it's not hard to justify divorce in ones own mind for any case. How long, how extensive is justifiable "abandonment"? Who knows... Hollywood was just ahead of most Christians regarding divorce.
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Post by Mary on Feb 27, 2015 23:31:38 GMT -5
I guess Christians are more likely to get married and not just live together than non Christians making the divorce rate higher than it would be compared to non Christians. Not that I am saying it is higher for Christians as I have not seen the statistics but living together would not be in the divorce statistics. I have not see many divorces in my churches I have been in. I only know of 3 in a church of say 300. I see Christians are more likely to stay in an unhappy marriage due to their belief that God does not like divorce. Adultery is a Biblical reason to leave your spouse. I do not believe God intends people to live miserable lives and stay in an unhappy marriage especially when there is abuse.
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Post by Lee on Feb 28, 2015 1:51:43 GMT -5
When people marry and then divorce due to a shortage of social and relational skills, were they really married?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 19:30:26 GMT -5
When people marry and then divorce due to a shortage of social and relational skills, were they really married? Maybe they aren't? At what level of social skills would you consider marriage legit, and which skills? Perhaps non of us have ever really been married? If someone wants out, they'll find a reason that is legit in their minds, to their satisfaction. Imo this is just one of those things that show once again that God isn't speaking to anyone, or he speaks with forked tongue, different things to different people. So, for lack, people turn to the bible for guidance, and you see what a variety of conclusions that leads to.
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terry
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Post by terry on Feb 28, 2015 21:27:03 GMT -5
I'd have to agree with Jesus, that divorce is grudgingly granted because of the hardness of the hearts. Especially damned would be Christians who could recite the 70x7 parable practically by heart, not to mention the example of the grace of God toward themselves. What's more, in this day and age, with marriage counseling available, there's even less excuse. And yet, among Christians there's more divorce than ever. I know of at least one church here who's majority members are rejects from the Catholic church because of their divorce. So then I come across this... Love by the numbers, 36 questions, and one hour, and you can fall in love with even a stranger. www.wpr.org/shows/love-numbersI suspect those who want to divorce, no longer want to sit down with their spouse, and go through this exercise together, and be open to the possibilities of life and love. I suspect Donald Trump's attitude reigns, If you have to work at it, it's not working. Not a good example or attitude I think. I'll call you on that statement. The Catholic Church offers hope for a Divorced member, and forgiveness is readily available. My wife deserted my child and myself a week after his second birthday. When I asked Duane Hopkins about remarrying--he told me rather than spend time bothering the workers, I should pray for her death which would free me. When I met and married my wife 30+ years ago, the Catholic church sent me to a tribunal to examine the marriage, and forgiveness and acceptance where offered.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 14:31:16 GMT -5
Interesting,... Thanks Terry, How forgiving is the Catholic church these days about divorce after being married in the RC church in front of friends and relatives, by the priest? Last I knew, that could be annulled, as if it never was a legit marriage before God, so in effect annulling the paperwork so to speak. But maybe things have changed and the determination of whether or not God has put the marriage together has been liberalized, or at least with Francis it may about to be. Seems like these days there's more of a path to redemption being recognized, including among the friends and workers. Your experience is pretty much like the people I know who were rejects from the RC's because of divorce. I'm sure they were very happy, satisfied, justified, confirmed, with the results in their new church too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 14:45:24 GMT -5
What I find fascinating is that those 36 questions, put together 20 years ago, are so effective!? What's more, apparently they can work with almost any 2 people willing to sit down and work through them in willingness, spirit, and truth. Maybe that's what's scary about them. Some people don't want to go there. Some people don't want to go there for themselves, much less with and in front of someone else. What it sort of tells me is that because of hardness of heart, as Jesus rightly said, divorce is begrudgingly granted. Which as far as some people are concerned, is close enough.
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Post by Lee on Mar 2, 2015 0:19:54 GMT -5
When people marry and then divorce due to a shortage of social and relational skills, were they really married? Maybe they aren't? At what level of social skills would you consider marriage legit, and which skills? Perhaps non of us have ever really been married? If someone wants out, they'll find a reason that is legit in their minds, to their satisfaction. Imo this is just one of those things that show once again that God isn't speaking to anyone, or he speaks with forked tongue, different things to different people. So, for lack, people turn to the bible for guidance, and you see what a variety of conclusions that leads to. People say a successful marriage is built upon the rock, Jesus. What if people marry while they're still coming to terms with Jesus? What if the terms they close around are irreconcilably, incompatible? What does it say about Jesus? What does it say about the parties?
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Post by Lee on Mar 2, 2015 0:22:19 GMT -5
The short answer is the personalities involved ought to evolved more before coming together. Perhaps they wouldn't have come together after all. And yet the Lord is sovereign. There's no understating the mystery of life.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 8:46:29 GMT -5
Thanks Lee for your thoughts. I think we all wrestle with this. One of the statistics that has surprised me is that 2nd marriages, on average, last less than 1st marriages! Like you, I'd think that the second time around you'd be older and wiser, and so choose better, and so the odds of staying together should go up? Right? Sort of like you're suggesting in the first place, the 1st time around. Turns out not so. It seems that if you survived one divorce, and are older and wiser, the second one is easier, so second marriages are even less successful.
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terry
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Post by terry on Mar 2, 2015 12:07:41 GMT -5
Interesting,... Thanks Terry, How forgiving is the Catholic church these days about divorce after being married in the RC church in front of friends and relatives, by the priest? Last I knew, that could be annulled, as if it never was a legit marriage before God, so in effect annulling the paperwork so to speak. But maybe things have changed and the determination of whether or not God has put the marriage together has been liberalized, or at least with Francis it may about to be. Seems like these days there's more of a path to redemption being recognized, including among the friends and workers. Your experience is pretty much like the people I know who were rejects from the RC's because of divorce. I'm sure they were very happy, satisfied, justified, confirmed, with the results in their new church too. I know of several couples in our Parrish that were originally married by a priest, and are now divorced and remarried and are full members of the community. The "annulment" process is long and tedious, but at least in this archdiocese is doable. I don't know of any that were rejected. In addition the taking of communion is considered a personal matter between you and God and is offered to all who ask. We had one couple where the man had been chair of the school commission and when he remarried, the priest made him resign from that office, but would give him communion. The only time a priest would without communion would be in the case of willful, continual, and public rejections of the teachings. I'm thinking of those politicians who try to claim Catholicism as their religion to get the vote, but then, also to get the vote support abortion.
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 8:15:34 GMT -5
Thanks Lee for your thoughts. I think we all wrestle with this. One of the statistics that has surprised me is that 2nd marriages, on average, last less than 1st marriages! Like you, I'd think that the second time around you'd be older and wiser, and so choose better, and so the odds of staying together should go up? Right? Sort of like you're suggesting in the first place, the 1st time around. Turns out not so. It seems that if you survived one divorce, and are older and wiser, the second one is easier, so second marriages are even less successful. That might be a factor. I think the biggest factor in second divorcees is their under-assessment of their competency for marriage in general.
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terry
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Post by terry on Mar 4, 2015 19:48:44 GMT -5
Thanks Lee for your thoughts. I think we all wrestle with this. One of the statistics that has surprised me is that 2nd marriages, on average, last less than 1st marriages! Like you, I'd think that the second time around you'd be older and wiser, and so choose better, and so the odds of staying together should go up? Right? Sort of like you're suggesting in the first place, the 1st time around. Turns out not so. It seems that if you survived one divorce, and are older and wiser, the second one is easier, so second marriages are even less successful. That might be a factor. I think the biggest factor in second divorcees is their under-assessment of their competency for marriage in general. Well, for me, my first marriage lasted 5 years (wife deserted one week after my son's 2nd birthday). my current marriage is approaching 34 years and stronger than ever.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 4, 2015 20:30:01 GMT -5
When people marry and then divorce due to a shortage of social and relational skills, were they really married? Problem is, though, the rules of marriage weren't designed to accommodate relationship skills as we understand them today. They were designed when women were property assets and marriage was to produce "legal" heirs.
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 22:16:34 GMT -5
When people marry and then divorce due to a shortage of social and relational skills, were they really married? Problem is, though, the rules of marriage weren't designed to accommodate relationship skills as we understand them today. They were designed when women were property assets and marriage was to produce "legal" heirs. That sounds intelligent. (I'm shocked, coming from you)
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Post by Lee on Mar 4, 2015 22:17:20 GMT -5
That might be a factor. I think the biggest factor in second divorcees is their under-assessment of their competency for marriage in general. Well, for me, my first marriage lasted 5 years (wife deserted one week after my son's 2nd birthday). my current marriage is approaching 34 years and stronger than ever. Good for you! I was almost married twenty years, I dug myself in deep!!!
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 4, 2015 23:42:10 GMT -5
Problem is, though, the rules of marriage weren't designed to accommodate relationship skills as we understand them today. They were designed when women were property assets and marriage was to produce "legal" heirs. That sounds intelligent. (I'm shocked, coming from you) And that sounds intelligible. (I'm shocked, coming from you)
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