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Post by rational on Mar 14, 2015 21:09:47 GMT -5
The same problem that arises in all decade old rape cases - there is no evidence. Precisely why the s@#&bags don't hesitate to rape. I'm tired of women getting hurt like this and having little to no recourse. Do you think the fear of being caught/charged would lessen the incidence of rape? Can women be more proactive to have more avenues to recourse?
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Post by matisse on Mar 14, 2015 21:23:01 GMT -5
Precisely why the s@#&bags don't hesitate to rape. I'm tired of women getting hurt like this and having little to no recourse. Do you think the fear of being caught/charged would lessen the incidence of rape? Maybe. Look at the history of how women who report rape have been treated. This is what we are up against. If the rapist didn't use a condom, the victim could go to the friendly local police station and request a rape kit.
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Post by mdm on Mar 14, 2015 21:28:22 GMT -5
Are you for real? Do you believe in a creator God and a day of reckoning? If so, you really might want to re-examine your quote AND the context. Love does not mean turning a blind eye to wrong-doing. (That's cowardice, pure and simple.) In fact, Love probably means standing up for the defenseless (as much as you are capable) in the face of wrongdoing. Unfortunately, this is the very doctrine that is being preached in the Fellowship - you can't and shouldn't try to stand up for the defenseless, because you will be taking God's job or getting out of your place. You are to be a sheep with your head down, not a goat with your head up. That's why abusers and their enablers can get away with what they do - no one dares give an appearance of "getting out of their place."
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Post by rational on Mar 14, 2015 21:31:02 GMT -5
The sister worker who reported that Leslie White raped her was willing to be questioned by the investigator in Colorado. She brought the charges against LW and before moving forward the state would require a statement and some verification.Had he been charged with a crime he would have been required to submit to questioning. Your statement about not wanting to answer questions implies guilt without anything to support the implication.
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Post by matisse on Mar 14, 2015 21:38:16 GMT -5
The sister worker who reported that Leslie White raped her was willing to be questioned by the investigator in Colorado. She brought the charges against LW and before moving forward the state would require a statement and some verification.Had he been charged with a crime he would have been required to submit to questioning. Your statement about not wanting to answer questions implies guilt without anything to support the implication. I understand that his unwillingness to cooperate is not an indicator of guilt.
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Post by mdm on Mar 14, 2015 21:39:53 GMT -5
Some believe this recent accusation is a plot from anti-divorce west coast overseers unhappy with the position LW takes on remarriage. For some, it is all about the men and only about the men. This is consistent with other misogynistic attitudes. In a way this is about men. Men, especially brother workers, especially senior brother workers, have to be protected, even if it means vilifying victims. When I asked several sister workers about the rape allegation, two automatically vilified the alleged victim, and two said that they don't need to know what happened (why LW was removed from the work). I was shocked that they have been indoctrinated either into not caring or into not daring to care - even about a woman like themselves.
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Post by mdm on Mar 14, 2015 21:49:25 GMT -5
She was in Love with Leslie ......This worker (SW) is dogmatic about being rejected by her advances has now an agenda to destroy him Yes, I've heard this before. This is apparently a common way to defend a BW against allegations and to vilify a victim. This is what I was told about LW, and I am also aware that the same was recently said about a worker on another continent (whom I happen to know and who has spent time in my home). Nevermind that someone may have a long list of past allegations of sexual harassment against him, he will still be conveniently portrayed as a "victim of a rejected female" if the victim doesn't keep quiet about the abuse.
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Post by mdm on Mar 14, 2015 21:55:28 GMT -5
She was in Love with Leslie ......This worker (SW) is dogmatic about being rejected by her advances has now an agenda to destroy him Is this a factual statement or just a matter of opinion based on that old Saying: " Hell has no fury like a woman scorned?" This, dear Partaker, is how a woman who dares report abuse against a BW will be portrayed to those who dare ask about the report. Bulsi didn't come up with this up on his own - this is how reports of abuse are commonly explained away in the Fellowship.
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Post by rational on Mar 14, 2015 21:59:47 GMT -5
Do you think the fear of being caught/charged would lessen the incidence of rape? Maybe. Does capital punishment reduce the incidence of homicide? The victim should always go and request a rape kit. The collection of semen is only one of many tests that are done. I believe the Merck Manual contains a complete list of the recommended procedural steps.
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Post by mdm on Mar 14, 2015 22:05:43 GMT -5
This thread is like reading Ayn Rand's "The night of January 16". There is enough "evidence" to cause reasonable doubt either way. No one commenting was there to witness the alleged event, so the judgments made are more of a reflection on the commenters, than on the people involved in the alleged incident. Then perhaps you would also disagree with how several workers answered our questions regarding this rape allegation, since most of them took the side of the alleged perpetrator even though they were not witnesses? Would you like to try to explain to senior brother workers why they should refrain from taking sides in such cases and that they should instruct lower-ranking workers to do the same? My husband and I tried to, but failed.
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Post by matisse on Mar 14, 2015 22:22:43 GMT -5
Does capital punishment reduce the incidence of homicide? In the case of powerful men who isolate and rape vulnerable women, I don't know how one ever ends up with anything more substantial than "he said, she said". Until that changes it will be difficult to increase conviction rates or any associated deterrent if one would exist. How are victims treated when they go and request a rape kit? Is the rape kit ever processed? (see link above)[/quote]
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 14, 2015 22:49:41 GMT -5
The problem this thread exposes is not unique to only men, or women, or male workers, or female workers, or friends, or overseers, or athiests, or "2x2s". No. Read what Greg and Partaker said. People post as if they have a lock on all of the absolute objective truth of the matter when the real truth is that they don't know anything. If someone thinks they have facts that would nail the case down, don't post about it here. Do what Rational suggested, contact the Colorado police.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Mar 14, 2015 22:59:05 GMT -5
This thread is like reading Ayn Rand's "The night of January 16". There is enough "evidence" to cause reasonable doubt either way. No one commenting was there to witness the alleged event, so the judgments made are more of a reflection on the commenters, than on the people involved in the alleged incident. Then perhaps you would also disagree with how several workers answered our questions regarding this rape allegation, since most of them took the side of the alleged perpetrator even though they were not witnesses? Would you like to try to explain to senior brother workers why they should refrain from taking sides in such cases and that they should instruct lower-ranking workers to do the same? My husband and I tried to, but failed. When there are basically no facts on the table I would advocate not taking either side.
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logain
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Post by logain on Mar 15, 2015 0:22:07 GMT -5
Some believe this recent accusation is a plot from anti-divorce west coast overseers unhappy with the position LW takes on remarriage. Seems like the late William Lewis was falsely accused leading to IH being installed as head worker just before Wm. Lewis' death. I loved to hear LW preach as he was very stimulating. I wished there were more preachers like him who were more interested in deep spiritual matters and less interested in petty stuff. Interestingly the only time I have heard the name of Leslie White come up from a local worker was in regards to the rather liberal D & RM policy under his tenure in Colorado. (The worker speaking was a west coast hardliner on the subject). Among the rank and file friends his name has come up on two occasions, both spoke very highly of the man. I worry that the truth of the matter (and the reputations of two people) has been forfeited in a game of power among the leaders of the "Truth".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 3:53:47 GMT -5
This is just one of many issues concerning Leslie. There are several documented issues, such as when an arbitrator was hired in a sexual harassment case, another issue in Colorado concerning harassment of a young woman, and others as well. It would reflect pretty poorly on the church if he were to be reinstated.
This is what this is all about Scott ..LW would destoy the truth if he split ranks with it. Well if his name is linked with all these things, as the old saying goes, where there is smoke it is most like that there is some fire. He would be a liability rather than an asset to the church.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 4:03:00 GMT -5
Is this a factual statement or just a matter of opinion based on that old Saying: " Hell has no fury like a woman scorned?" This, dear Partaker, is how a woman who dares report abuse against a BW will be portrayed to those who dare ask about the report. Bulsi didn't come up with this up on his own - this is how reports of abuse are commonly explained away in the Fellowship. I agree, but one must be certain in these matters because the reputations of the parties involved are at stake. Justice must be done and must be seen to be done; miscarriages of justice must be avoided also, because that can distroy the innocent party.
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Post by rational on Mar 15, 2015 8:23:05 GMT -5
Does capital punishment reduce the incidence of homicide? In the case of powerful men who isolate and rape vulnerable women, I don't know how one ever ends up with anything more substantial than "he said, she said". Until that changes it will be difficult to increase conviction rates or any associated deterrent if one would exist. The "he said/she said" situation will exist unless there is evidence to support one story above the other. It is no doubt that women are at a disadvantage. In the allegations being leveled against Bill Cosby it is very difficult for the women to prove their claims. As it is difficult for Cosby to prove his claims. Being an individual with power in his industry he was able to offer these woman something they wanted and could have taken advantage of the situation. On the other hand, are the women responsible for placing themselves in that situation? Or is Crosby responsible for placing himself in a situation that could lead to such allegations? Sexual assault, or any assault, is wrong in any case. No one should have to take steps to avoid assault - it simply should not happen. But in the real world taking precautions can help prevent problems - whether that is an assault or the accusation of an assault. I would guess that, depending on the social status of the victim, that the treatment ranges from terrible to helpful. As to the report of the unprocessed rape kits, the reporting should be looked at with caution. There is no question that the kits should have been processed.
On another topic - I did notice this item in the quoted report: Compared to non-sex offenders released from State prisons, released sex offenders were 4 times more likely to be rearrested for a sex crime.Does this mean that the recidivism rate for sexual offenders is 4 times that of offenders in general? Nope. It means that 5.3% of people released for sex crimes were rearrested for sex crimes within 3 years. It also means that non-sex offenders do not run out of prison and become sex offenders. In the general population two-thirds (67.8%) of released prisoners were arrested for a new crime within 3 years. While the article's quote makes it look like sexual offenders have a higher recidivism rate what it is actually saying is that criminals arrested for non-sexual crimes are less likely to commit sexual crimes after they are released than are criminals arrested for sexual crimes. The data shows that the recidivism rate for sexual offenders is actually quite a bit lower than for those arrested for non-sexual crimes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 8:53:37 GMT -5
It is so clear that the truth in this matter means nothing to many of you.. The reputation of a MORTAL MAN means more then the truth before God.. You will throw all your faith behind a man with many questionable actions? What does that say about your faith in God. Why is Leslie not trusting God and be willing to stand before men? Did not Jesus stand before men and be condemned to death. Did not Peter and other get throw in jail for doing right? If the workers say they follow the example of Jesus, why are the only willing to follow only so far? Where is their faith in God to see them though?
My question to all of you Leslie worshipers is, why are you not encouraging Leslie to trust God and be willing for what ever the price to make things right. That means being will to trust God over the system. Is that not what he has preached all theses years? I have hear him preach. He like to tell others to trust God.. One thing I remember him preaching was the friends should trust God and have more children. Very easy to preach if you don't have to raise the children. Now is the time for him to show us all weather he can act on all he has preached about all these years.
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Post by matisse on Mar 15, 2015 8:54:48 GMT -5
In the case of powerful men who isolate and rape vulnerable women, I don't know how one ever ends up with anything more substantial than "he said, she said". Until that changes it will be difficult to increase conviction rates or any associated deterrent if one would exist. The "he said/she said" situation will exist unless there is evidence to support one story above the other. It is no doubt that women are at a disadvantage. In the allegations being leveled against Bill Cosby it is very difficult for the women to prove their claims. As it is difficult for Cosby to prove his claims. Being an individual with power in his industry he was able to offer these woman something they wanted and could have taken advantage of the situation. On the other hand, are the women responsible for placing themselves in that situation? Or is Crosby responsible for placing himself in a situation that could lead to such allegations? Sexual assault, or any assault, is wrong in any case. No one should have to take steps to avoid assault - it simply should not happen. But in the real world taking precautions can help prevent problems - whether that is an assault or the accusation of an assault. I agree with much of what you say. I am interested in the special case of the beloved community member, sage, mentor, etc. whose victim is suddenly, as far as she knows, the only one in the world who can even imagine that he is also a sexual predator. Should she have double-checked the charge in her can of bear spray before engaging with him? Until recently, I think Bill Cosby was considered by many to be a beloved community member, sage, mentor, etc.. Now we know that there has been a lot of smoke swirling around the guy for years (no, not just the smoke from his cigars), only people like me, and apparantly a number of his "alleged" victims, weren't aware of it. 30 Rock Called Out Bill Cosby Five Years Ago. We Just Missed It.There is a transcript of the video clip. I found it just for you, Rational. Better option: (re)watch 30 Rock Season Three, Episode 15 The Bubble - it's available on Netflix.
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Post by rational on Mar 15, 2015 9:22:27 GMT -5
I agree with much of what you say. Not ALL? I am deeply hurt!No, she should not have to take any precaution. But back to real life - There have been warnings for as long as I can remember that people should not place themselves in a position of danger. It has usually been applied to the fair sex (that usually means women). While the women are not at fault for going accompanying a man alone to his hotel room/home/etc. I think most would agree that it does present a danger or, if not an actual danger, the possibility of being accused of something that you can not easily defend against. Cosby can claim the women are looking for money and the women can claim he assaulted them. But the proof is difficult to come by. He was well liked by the public in general. No doubt this is also the LW situation with some of his fans. Years ago I saw Cosby as the entertainment at a RedHat users group in NV. In that more private setting I felt he showed his true colors and they were not, in my opinion, pretty. Thanks. Printed words are so much easier/quicker to digest.What is this NetFlix you speak of? Are you from another dimension? As sad as it is, I think women still need to protect themselves against people like this. I have no doubt it is easy to develop feelings for a more powerful male who projects a kind public persona. And being human, it is possible that one might believe that there is the possibility of gain by a closer relationship.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 15, 2015 10:21:13 GMT -5
She was in Love with Leslie ......This worker (SW) is dogmatic about being rejected by her advances has now an agenda to destroy him WOW.... Not sure where you got that from. She didn't know Leslie very well at the time of the alleged rape, and at no time have I thought that she had any kind of interest in Leslie. It should be noted that when she came forward to with her allegations, she had no intention of this becoming a matter for law enforcement. Her concern was with Leslie being able to continue his behavior as a senior worker. Her report to the authorities was based on the recommendations of the overseers that she met with, along with the support of a professing person who attended to give some information concerning legal/ethical issues. That individual is also a member of an investigating unit concerned with child abuse issues, and quite credible with senior workers elsewhere. (different person than mentioned below) She isn't the only one that Leslie has (allegedly) sexually assaulted. Other other sister workers are believed by others to have been sexually assaulted by Leslie. One convention ground owner banned Leslie from attending convention on their property based on allegations against him. This also prior to the rape allegations. I had some interesting conversations with a professing lady who prior to the date of the rape allegations worked with a sex crimes unit in Colorado. She had gotten involved in a sexual harassment issue concerning Leslie, at which time he had agreed to get professional help and stop certain behaviors, namely showing up alone where women were also alone. This was prior to Leslie being moved to Illinois/Indiana, where he once again was involved in a sexual harassment issue that ended with an arbitration meeting to try to settle that issue. This lady travelled to a convention at another state in order to meet with overseers and discuss that particular case with them. She was very concerned that Leslie had not followed through with what he had agreed upon. Her statements were also part of the investigation into the rape allegations, as far as Leslie's past behaviors. Perhaps I will post the transcript and timeline of one of his other issues that is quite publicly known. It might help some who think that Leslie is being maligned and falsely accused understand a bit more about his past actions. It will give names of some workers that can be asked if it is a true account of the facts, for those who think all this is a vendetta against Leslie.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 15, 2015 10:40:24 GMT -5
Here you go...... A transcript and timeline of an incident that took place AFTER the alleged rape, but prior to the rape allegations. The sister worker didn't know about this particular incident concerning Leslie when she came forward.
Since there are some fairly prominent workers mentioned here, people could certainly contact them to verify the accurateness of this accounting.
Mr. Jim Price Greetings Jim, We are writing to let you and those listed below know that our greatest concern is for the Kingdom, and keeping it pure and holy. These events have been so distressing for the past 8 months, that there are days when we just wish we could wake up and realize it was all a nightmare and over with. But, it continues, and for nearly 240 days, day and night, this horror has plagued our mind. We’ve prayed for an answer, and prayed for peace, and prayed for a resolution, and prayed that the workers we’ve spoken to (Bruce Shaw and Barry Barkley) would see how serious and devastating this event has been to the victim, to our family, and could be to the whole Family of God. XXXXX and I have lost sleep, night after night, for months. We’ve wept repeatedly, and feel it’s hopeless at times to think anyone will feel as distraught as we do over these events. We were told to say nothing to anyone, and we have complied! And, never in our wildest imaginations would we ever have thought we would feel this way when we heard Leslie White was coming to Illinois. We had the utmost respect and reverence for him, and his ability to ALWAYS be helpful in every meeting we were privileged to hear him speak in. Upon hearing of the incident, though, it didn’t matter who was the offender, we felt we must bring it to light. I was made aware of this incident on January 14, 2009. XXX and I got together with the victim on April 3, 2009, from 5:00 to 10:00 p.m. and discussed in detail each and every question she was asked and the details regarding the incident. We were shocked and appalled at the questions. The questions were as such: Did she ever have pleasure with her husband? How often did they have sex? Could her husband get an erection? Did he ejaculate? What did she do to excite him? Did she get him to masturbate? Did he think her body was attractive? Did he look at other women? In the times they did have sex, was he able to get her wet? “Any man with one red blood cell would have sex with her.” LW LW said he would have sex with her. LW said he would even marry her if he were younger. LW said she was an absolutely beautiful woman with a beautiful body. LW told her that he loved her 4 or 5 times during the evening conversation. Upon hearing the details of this conversation, we were sickened, and made a phone call to one of the elders in the Chicago area. He stated upon hearing the information that we contact Barry Barkley. XXXXX called and spoke to Barry, and gave him some of the details. It was decided that a meeting would be held at our home so that both parties could discuss their particular side. The evening before the meeting, Barry called to say that he would attend the meeting as well. In attendance would then be Barry Barkley, traveling from New York, XXXXX and XXXXX, the victim, XXXXX, and Leslie White. When Leslie arrived, his immediate question after greeting everyone and apologizing that everyone had had to meet at our home was, “What are the charges against me?” “Is this court, or a hearing?” “I need to know what is happening here.” To these questions, Barry stated that we were met to hear each side of the incident, and that this was a meeting to hear the facts. The victim told how the meeting had come about, and the questions she had been asked later in the evening. Leslie raised his hand to the heavens and stated, “God is my witness, I have never had a conversation with anyone about sexual matters, and I’ve never gone alone with a woman for dinner.” “I was a fool for going alone with the victim.” “I was a fool.” Upon stating the questions she had been asked by Leslie, the victim looked at Leslie and asked how any of these had any spiritual context. Leslie stated that he had not asked those questions! Later in the conversation, Leslie said he had been counseling a couple in Indiana, and the husband had told him he was trying to convince his wife to stay together. He told Leslie he had bought some “toys”. The victim asked him to be quiet, that we did not want to hear these things. Wasn’t this a conversation regarding sexual matters? So it seems that Leslie White had already contradicted his statement from earlier that evening. Barry stated at this point, that the workers should not get involved in these types of conversations with the friends, and that they should encourage them to seek professional advice. He stated that this area was something the workers should stay clear of, completely! Barry also mentioned that by going two together provided a safety net, a check system, so that they would be a help to each other as co-workers. Barry suggested that Leslie should not be traveling by himself in the future, and that he should be supervised by his co-worker so that these kind of things did not happen again. He also stated that there were numerous subjects that could be discussed in gospel meetings and other meetings; the victim had stated some concern for the subject matter in a couple of gospel meetings she had attended just prior to this. Barry encouraged Leslie to be careful not to be offensive to others in subjects he spoke about since there was much in our Bible that was beneficial and encouraging and helpful. About an hour into the meeting, Leslie stated to the victim, “You forgot, I did ask you about orgasm.” Then he said, “I’ve never said that word before, and I don’t know if I pronounced it right.” The victim reacted quickly by saying, “you’re right, I had completely forgotten that; you did ask me about orgasm, and you pronounced it perfectly.” At that moment, XXXXX and I, the victim, and XXXXX sat with our heads down, in shock and disbelief. Barry sat quietly. There was silence for a minute or more while we tried to grasp what we had heard. Without any proof of the former questions, Leslie had just validated the inappropriateness of this conversation by stating the question he had asked her about orgasm. In our minds, it seemed that he had no intention of saying this, but God had forced it out! There were numerous quiet moments where everyone sat without saying a word. Leslie stated to most of the victim’s statements, “ I didn’t say that.” He admitted that he was the fool for going with her that evening. Barry said that the workers should not be stating anything about a woman’s beauty, and Leslie said he would be more careful about that, and that he didn’t know he shouldn’t be saying that, and that he was sorry he had mentioned a woman’s beauty to anyone. XXXXX stated that this seemed like a very serious issue, and that counseling would be a suggestion he would make in order that Leslie overcome this tendency, or at least find out what a psychiatrist would say following an analysis. XXXXX stated that in his workplace, they learned very early the importance of being careful, in every situation, so as not to be offensive to co-workers. He stated that counseling was often a very helpful solution, and suggested it be looked into. He also stated that there were times in his presence that Leslie had “come close to the line, but never stepped over.” He wondered where Leslie was going with what he was saying, but then never went over the line. This was a great concern to Curt. The meeting ended after Barry asked if anyone had anything else to say. Leslie stated, “There’s nothing more to say.” Barry said that he felt we had accomplished the mission for the meeting, and that was to hear both sides, and that he would be in touch with the victim. During the next week, we received a letter from Leslie (see attached). Within a few more days, we also received a letter from Barry (see attached). We heard from no one else until about a month later, when Barry called to check in. Barry and I spoke on the phone for nearly an hour, and the content of the conversation was the following. Barry stated that he didn’t believe either one of the parties concerned intentionally tried to lie. He stated that some people say things quickly, and forget what they have said, and that perhaps things have become enlarged in the victim’s mind. He stated that there was a “gap” or grey area where their statements did not match. He didn’t know the cause for the gap, but he knew that it was a serious issue. He stated that he had talked to 2 older brothers in New York. We assumed this would be overseers; older brothers who were responsible for the flock, but I don’t believe that was the case. This grey area is the victim’s accusations, and Leslie’s admittance of ONE thing he said which was out of line, “beautiful women.” Barry stated that some feel we should exert more punishment, and he believed restoration was the first order of importance, followed with rebuking with all authority, admonishing one another, and sometimes we’re called upon to punish. He stated that we don’t act rashly because the Lord can cause us to see the next thing. Barry stated that he didn’t know if this was a sickness or a foolish failing, but the best way to find out was having a co-worker aware of it, as Leslie continued on in his place. Barry stated that if this was a gradual failing (human), Leslie could repent and have victory. If this was a sickness, then they would have more to deal with. He again repeated that God had sent them two together, and this was their safety net, and their responsibility to look out for each other. He said he believed in God’s power to give people another chance. I asked Barry if he recalled at the meeting in our home that Leslie had stated he had not asked her any of those questions, or discussed those explicit subjects, but Leslie said he had asked her about “orgasm.” Barry said, “no, I had forgotten that.” “You’re right, he did say that,” Barry continued. I was stunned; this was a key moment that evening, when Leslie validated these accusations by admitting, accidentally, that he had asked her this question. I stated that this seemed to make that “grey” area far less grey, as far as we were concerned! Had Barry not even relayed this statement to the older brothers he had spoken to? This statement says volumes about our concern. Orgasm has NOTHING to do with a spiritual conversation! This statement was of utmost importance, and as I looked around the table that night, most were in tears, and Barry sat emotionless. Was it too much for Barry to grasp what Leslie was saying? Barry finished our conversation by saying that he would rather err on the side of being too slow to make the next move, rather than acting swiftly. It was not until mid-June when the victim contacted Barry to express her concern that she had heard that Leslie had been traveling alone, and had visited some of my family in southern Indiana. This information came to light by a phone call from one of those visited, which knew nothing about these circumstances. It was just happenstance that they mentioned to XXXXX father, that Leslie had come past for a visit, and stated he had driven some 200 miles by himself. They didn’t know where he was going, or the reason for his travels. A key point of concern here – if he’s not staying with his co-worker, how can he be supervised? There’s no one to watch what he’s doing, and this is a dangerous precedent. Barry questioned how the victim knew this, and whether it was even true. She told him it was XXXXX family, and that he could call to verify it with me if he wanted. In the meantime, the victim had come upon information from another young woman of our acquaintance who stated that she had had a similar experience, but chose to remain silent. She did not want her name used, but said that he had crossed the line in a similar conversation, and she said she had made it clear that he better not try that again; she told the victim that if he ever brought the subject up again, she would knock his teeth out! She stated that she felt he was afraid of her now, and he better not mess with her again! It seemed that when Bruce Shaw was asked to get involved when he returned to the Chicago area, he was given limited information. He felt he knew all about it, but knew very little of the severity or the details. He met with XXXXX and I, along with his co-worker, to discuss holding another meeting where two overseers would come to review/discuss these things at our home. We agreed to go forward with this, with the victim’s approval as well. Within a matter of days, we heard from Bruce that this meeting was not going to happen because without the names of other possible “victims” there was really nothing to go on. Barry told Bruce that that he saw no need to have another meeting; it would be a waste of time, and there was no need to have another “he said/she said,” debate. The information was relayed to us by Bruce. Things went from bad to much, much worse with conversations and email we received from Bruce. We felt that no one understood, or even appreciated that we were standing by the victim, a woman who had been greatly wronged, and our concern was for her, as well as for Leslie to admit this problem and seek professional help. In mid-June, the victim called Barry, extremely upset, and pleaded that he couldn’t just let this information go. She gave him the name of one woman she knew that had been offended by Leslie White, even though she was going against her wishes to be named. It seemed as if this was the only way he would believe there were others harmed by Leslie and this was not an isolated event. Barry again reiterated that he would not “surge ahead of God.” He stated that he didn’t think there was a problem with Leslie. When she asked what Barry was planning to do, he stated that he was choosing to do nothing! The victim then told Barry that she felt sure that Leslie would do it again, and if he did, the responsibility would then be with Barry for doing nothing. Barry ended the conversation by stating, “Just remember, you’ll suffer the consequences for every choice you make. If I remove or rebuke a brother, I suffer the consequences for that.” Within a few days, Barry left an email for the victim that stated that he wanted to know exactly what she needed to settle this in her mind, and to let him know right away. We assume that he may have spoken to the woman the victim had named. The victim again reiterated that she felt Leslie should be removed from his position, attend counseling, and apologize for all he had said, and that a letter should be formulated letting others know what had occurred. The only thing that Barry agreed to was an apology from Leslie, however, the victim wanted it done in person and handled by professionals rather than the workers. In late June, the Chicago Mediation Specialist, Al Livingstone, was contacted. He met with the victim, alone, and then with Leslie, which was to be alone. Bruce Shaw was asked to take Leslie to the meeting, and then was called into the meeting by Dr. Livingstone, and asked several questions as well; he was sitting in an adjoining room able to hear all that was being said. At this point, XXXX and I are stating that we can no longer stand by and wait for Leslie to make another mistake like this one. If this is an illness, he needs to seek treatment, immediately. The next event could be with a sister worker, a needy person asking for help, a child, or an innocent young woman. We believe that it’s irresponsible on the part of our overseers to allow a man, who others are aware has come close to the line in the past, to be allowed to continue going in and out of hundreds of homes, unchecked. It poses a serious threat to young women and children. Leslie is very complimentary of women, and has stated on many occasions that our daughters are “beautiful.” That in itself never stood out as a problem to me, although I had never experienced a worker saying it over and over about my daughters. Of greater concern, is the fact that Leslie is still lying about what he said to the victim that evening. He stated at the final meeting with the Mediation Specialist on September 12, 2009, that he had not sworn before God that he had never been alone with a woman, or spoken about sexual matters. Five of us witnessed that statement at our dining room table at the April meeting. He also said he had not asked her about orgasm. He said, rather, that he had looked it up in a dictionary because he didn’t know how to say it. That’s not what he said in our presence!! Again, all five of us witnessed that statement at our home, and sat in shock and horror as he said it! Additionally, he stated at the final meeting, that he couldn’t remember all that had been said at our home that night; it was all a grey blur, and that maybe he had been thinking of the time when he was engaged, and this was the reason he asked some of the questions!!!! Something is terribly wrong here. Simply put, Barry seems to think that this formal apology with Al Livingstone will be sufficient, and it is no longer a concern of God’s family; it is being handled professionally, and there are many other concerns in God’s family, according to what he told the victim. Yes, that’s true, but this is of utmost concern, because it causes a complete lack of trust in our workers who are aware of the situation and have chosen to do nothing but move him away from the Chicago area. And it remains a concern, because the meeting came about as a chance to speak to the victim about her place with God and her soul. So this is still a concern of God’s family! It would seem wise to ask Leslie to take a leave of absence for a time to assess this situation. The danger is that there will be a lack of respect for The Truth because this man is being allowed to continue in his position; some are aware that this has happened before. Due to the extremely graphic nature of the conversation Leslie had with the victim, you must understand that this is not tolerated in the workplace or in any other religious or school setting. By not removing Leslie from his position, you are allowing the most pure message of Jesus to be mixed with pollution and dirt from Leslie. They don’t mix; it’s like oil and water, they aren’t meant to be mixed. God’s word CANNOT be polluted by one with such extreme human failings who doesn’t seem to understand the gravity of the situation. Why is Barry not as concerned and sickened as the victim, XXXXX and I are? Why is Barry not concerned about the name of the Truth, and it being tarnished? Why is Barry not concerned that Leslie is still lying, before God, the victim, Jim Price and Al Livingstone, at the final meeting, about what he did? Why is Barry not concerned for the sake of the Truth and how it appears before others when we allow this minister to continue, knowing his behavior has been completely inappropriate? Lying is a deadly sin, and why does one lie? It’s only to make something appear less serious, but the consequences of lying are so much more serious. Lying can mean the loss of our eternal salvation, unless we repent of it. Lust is just as serious! At the final meeting, it was suggested that some of the workers take a class in “Sensitivity Training.” This is all well and good, but doesn’t come close to being an answer to this particular case of sexual misconduct. In the George J. Mitchell commencement address to MIT in 2003, he said, “Never forget that in the presence of evil, silence makes you an accomplice.” We cannot keep silence in a situation that is clearly pertaining to evil, or mental illness. Tim and I were raised to understand right from wrong behavior; right is right and never changes. When something is utterly wrong, it changes how we value and respect the things we’ve always held as sacred, when they are being represented by someone who can speak to a young woman in this manner. We are only being responsible citizens in God’s Kingdom as we break our silence and bring these matters to your attention. Thank you for taking the time to listen to our account of this experience. We would welcome your thoughts, and pray that you see the seriousness of this matter, and how hurtful this extremely inappropriate conversation, namely sexual misconduct, was with the victim, and is to us, her friends. This behavior cannot be tolerated in God’s Kingdom. xxxxx and xxxxxx
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 15, 2015 10:50:17 GMT -5
More on this particular incident:
And the addendum from XXXXX: Since the letter was sent, these details have come to our attention: 5 sister workers in MN told Lyle Schober that it LW showed up at their convention, they would leave! (2 years ago) 1 young woman in Indy reported to XXXXX in late October of a similar situation which happened to her in January, 2008. An elder and his wife in Indy are very uncomfortable with LW's demeaning of women, and scriptural issues; October, 2009. Heard of a woman now under medical care, because of a previous experience with LW. This had been reported to BB over a year before, and was again being reported. (October, 2009) LW was asked not to go to the convention she was attending that year. A sister worker in IN who reported to BB that she was made uncomfortable by comments from LW in front of young brother workers; she asked that her name not be used. BB told this to Tim, personally. Numerous people have commented to Beth that 'they weren't surprised'. IN addition, several have stated that he seems to be fixated on the 'sexual' subject matter. 2 sister workers in IA were made to feel uncomfortable in his presence, reported prior to our meeting to BB.
Additionally, XXXXX was made aware of that Duane Hopkins was in the States in late November, just prior to Thanksgiving, and she called and spoke to him on the Saturday, following Thanksgiving. Duane was in XXXXX area in Indianapolis for several years when she was a teenager, and knew her family well. Duane said this was the 3rd of 4th call he had had regarding this subject, and upon receiving my call, he felt perhaps he needed to write a letter to Barry. He stated that there had been a meeting in TX on October 23, in which Lyle Schober, Ray Hoffman, Leslie White and Barry Barkley had been in attendance. Lyle had called Duane in Argentina as a result of getting the letter we mailed him in early October. At the meeting, Duane said this letter had been discussed. Lyle had mentioned the seriousness of Barry forgetting the matter of what LW said the victim had forgotten to mention, namely, 'orgasm'. He said this was not the type of thing one would want to be forgetting. (Refer to XXXXX letter, Page 4, para. 5) As well, Duane told XXXXX that Barry told Leslie that this type of activity could not be a part of the ministry! Leslie said he would never do it again. Duane said LW is now on probation! From October 23, 2009 forward, anything that is questionable or inappropriate should be reported. Of concern, however, is that the probation has not been reported to even LW's current co-worker. The co-worker was given the information following this phone call to Duane Hopkins, who knew it in Argentina! Bruce, Mark, have you been made aware that LW is on probation? This is not about anyone's imagination running wild, there's no reason to take another viewpoint on the matter (as your Dr. suggested, Bruce), it's not the first time it's happened, therefore, names of other victims is not even necessary. BB has been given reports of concern for some time. This did not become 'enlarged' in the victim's mind! LW has continued to lie, or be untrue in his statements to others: He told his co-worker that he had tried to call us, and we wouldn't return his calls! LW has never left a message for us to know to call him back, either on cell or home phone. He told Bruce, Barry, and XXXXX that he was waiting for XXXX and XXXXX to let him know when he could send an apology letter to the victim. This is completely untrue; we were never put in that position of needing to tell him when she would accept a letter from him. Rather, he told us to 'thank her' as well, when we felt she was able for his thanks. (Letter from LW the week following the April, 2009 meeting.)
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 15, 2015 10:58:52 GMT -5
Want more?
Subject: Leslie White From: XXXXX , 3 Jan 2008 11:28:40 EST Content-Type: multipart/alternative My professing sister is in Ohio right now with the rest of my family. She has a friend in Indiana whose mother just died. Apparently, she is going up to Indiana today to meet Leslie White for lunch and she is also going to the funeral of her friend's mom. This is the same sister who told me how that a few years ago, Leslie White grabbed her and stuck his tongue down her throat in a passionate kiss and how she told him "you just fell off the pedestal I put you on." Well, apparently he didn't fall that far. I am just venting but I just can't believe how loyal "friends" stay to certain "workers" no matter what they do. It reminded me of the children who have reported sexual abuse by a worker and how their parents probably just shushed them and swept it under the rug. How incredibly infuriating and sad, this thought was to me. I actually did tell my mom "woo hoo. Lunch with Leslie White, the pervert who kisses whoever he wants as long as they profess." She just laughed and said "well, you know your sisters have always liked Leslie." Yeah, right. WHATEVER. XXXXX xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The sad thing in life is, the most vicious, evil people are the ones who seem to have everything they desire while the ones who are naturally good and kind and compassionate from birth, seem to suffer and struggle for a tiny bit of peace and happiness. I loved XXXXXX as an 13 year old and due to my childhood memories, I mourn his death. I'd much rather have a loving gay worker like XXXXX living in my home than straight perverted workers like Leslie White or Ira Hobbs who go after the teenage girls in the house. People are so confused about gay people. I've known a lot of gay people that wouldn't THINK of flirting or seducing a teenage boy or girl. GAY doesn't mean PEDOPHILE. Gay means is attracted to the same sex, around their same age. I'd trust XXXXX any day over Ira or Leslie. I've seen them in action just as I experienced pure love from XXXXX as an adult should love children. God rest his soul. XXXXX xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: (no subject) From: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:59:16 EDT Content-Type: multipart/alternative Dear XXXXX, I am wondering if you received my mail sent privately??? I wanted the list to know I am thriving in my new Church & am seeing things in a totally new way. I am excited & was in Nashville at the same time Demorest Conv. was going on. I spoke with my sister Sat. nite to see if her new son-in-law professed---he did, but she chastized me for being in a False way. I simply told her that I hoped she was enjoying conv. & getting her needs met as I was in Nashville at the Women's conference. She DID NOT wish the same for me but told me the right way is "the homeless ministry & the ch. in the home". I think this is the standard response to the "right" way. Anyhow, I am feeling enlightened & refreshed. Greetings to all, Becky Hooter BTW, the post about Leslie White was of interest. He once told me that there was misuse of money given to the workers by some. [he was answering questions I asked]. As for his tongue, it is down some woman's throat somewhere!!!! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Letter from Worker to XXXXXXXX Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:25:24 EDT Content-Type: multipart/alternative Dear XXXXX , OMG! Leslie White also gabbed me & kissed me full on the mouth with his tongue down my throat. He told me what an exciting, beautiful woman I was & how he wanted to stay in contact with me. He also advised me to leave my husband once---I did not-- but he was all over me, with pulling away ASAP! It was the year I reprofessed after a 30 yr. abscence. The funny thing is before I went back to mtgs. I believed it was God's true way. Seeing the 2x2's from the angle of a prodigal was when I realized something was rotten in the state of Denmark. I was telling my new Ch. family a little about the way I was raised & one of them immediately said "the perverting of the Gospel". Thursday I am going to Nashville for a Women's Conference & workshop.I have no idea what to expect but am looking forward to seeing things in a whole new light & new perspective! God bless you, XXXXX!!! Your friend, XXXXX xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Letter from Worker to XXXXXX Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:30:26 EDT Content-Type: multipart/alternative XXXXXX: If you have read any of my posts, I have mentioned that my sister flirted with Ira Hobbs every time he was in our home and Ira Hobbs flirted back - to the point that as a little girl, I was disgusted. My sister has re professed now for the past 18 years and has raised her 3 daughters to believe that if they attend meeting every Sunday and Wednesday night that it is at all possible, they will have a place in heaven. My sister, XXXXX, who lives one hour from me, was also the one who told me that Leslie White, another male worker high up in the ranks, kissed her one time AFTER her marriage almost 18 years ago, and stuck his tongue down her throat. He groped her and kept trying to kiss her to the point where she had to pull away and said "you just fell off your pedestal." From the time we are born, those of us who were born and raised in the 2x2s are taught that the workers are the next best thing to God. Any worker who is attractive at all is going to have young professing women idolize them. If they can't handle that without molesting them, flirting with them or worse, then they have no business being workers. I would believe Ira Hobbs or Leslie White to be capable of any kind of sexual molestation, acts, abuse, etc. towards any woman. I've seen it first hand and as I said, even as a young girl, it disgusted me. I've seen Ira Hobbs sit on the piano bench with my sisters (especially XXXXXl, whom he showed extreme favoritism) and put his arm around them while they played the hymn and sang with him. I was never a favorite of any of the male workers because I purposely stayed away from all of them after seeing what went on with my 3 older sisters. It sickens me to this day. Once in a while when I go back to Ohio to visit my parents and other family members, my dad will say "XXXX, why don't you come to meeting with us tomorrow?" and I just say "Dad, you know better. Just don't even go there." I will not EVER sit in another meeting. XXXXXX xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: (no subject) From: XXXXX Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:37:38 EDT Content-Type: multipart/alternative Cheryle: Email me privately if you want to know a lot more about Leslie White. If not, my advice is, don't allow yourself to be caught alone with him, married or not married. He has no business being any kind of leader - especially in the name of God. XXXXXX
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 15, 2015 11:02:05 GMT -5
If I remember right, I think that all the last post was something pulled off the internet on a search on Leslie's name.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 15, 2015 11:24:26 GMT -5
An addendum to the original letter I posted. The couple who brought the issue up with Jim Price had their 'part' taken away in meetings for getting involved in this matter. They are no longer members of the fellowship, although they tried to stay in for quite some time.
Pretty sad.
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Post by matisse on Mar 15, 2015 14:08:09 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott.
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Post by matisse on Mar 15, 2015 15:01:50 GMT -5
I agree with much of what you say. Not ALL? I am deeply hurt! I am NOT easy! Many of the women coming forward and telling their stories about being assaulted/raped by Cosby are doing so to lend support and credibility to the stories that the other alleged victims have come forward with, and not asking for money. Some people continue to insist that the alleged victims are coming forward only to extract something from Cosby. It just isn't true. What does this say about common attitudes toward women? About levels of disrespect toward women? It was only after a black male comedian highlighted Cosby as a rapist in his routine that people started paying attention. Lots of women had talked about problems with Cosby before and there was no sustained attention paid to their words like there was once a guy started putting it out there. Women are quckly and unfairly dismissed in our culture. Yes, there are some now really creepy archival footage/audio tracks of Cosby, including one of him talking about wanting to get his hands on some Spanish Fly so he can have his way with women. Hmmmm....I thought I spotted you over there the other day! Girls need to be taught to protect themselves so they don't end up learning the hard way. They have to be taught very well, because predators are very savvy and have all kinds of slick tricks for luring victims. I consider myself to be fairly aware of safety issues, and although I have made it to this point in my life without being sexually assaulted, I did survive one incident in which I feared for my life at the hands of a colleague of a friend, and another in which I was sexually harrassed by the head of security of the research facility at which I worked one summer. The first, I might have avoided by asking more questions about how well my friend knew the guy whose car I climbed into, the second, I don't know how I could have seen coming. Fortunately I had the strength and confidence to not let him intimidate me. I will add, that like many other women, it didn't even enter my mind to say something about it (rock the boat, risk not being believed....the guy was very popular among staff members) to my employer. It's easier to state that women need to protect themselves than it is to be a woman and stay safe.Why would an aspiring actress, back in the day, not be interested in an offer of mentorship by "America's favorite Dad", unless, perhaps, she had heard the rumors about Cosby? If you read the stories of Bill COsby's (alleged) victims, many different setups/lures are described, some of which would not have raised alarms. Some women described going to Bill Cosby's residence with the expectation that there would be many other people around, including Cosby's wife, only to find out that nobody else showed up for the "party." All he needed to do from there was get them to take a couple sips of a drink...even coffee, and he had them. Or the women whom he (allegedly) drugged in a public place and then "helped" them to get someplace "more comfortable" after they were no longer in any shape to refuse.
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