simon
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Post by simon on Jun 20, 2015 3:08:15 GMT -5
Aristotle said "His suicide, whilst tragic, will always imply guilt. The note he left also does this"
Surely not. The implication from Ben Crompton was very clear. Any allegations were false.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 6:07:39 GMT -5
Thank goodness, God will be his judge?
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jun 20, 2015 10:53:04 GMT -5
I thought the same as you, ladies. Even if the note was definitely in his writing, that could be coerced. Ah well, maybe too many cop novels! Where's Hercule Poirot when you need him?
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2015 11:18:15 GMT -5
I thought the same as you, ladies. Even if the note was definitely in his writing, that could be coerced. Ah well, maybe too many cop novels! Where's Hercule Poirot when you need him? or Mrs. Marple!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 11:46:54 GMT -5
Aristotle said "His suicide, whilst tragic, will always imply guilt. The note he left also does this" Surely not. The implication from Ben Crompton was very clear. Any allegations were false. And sadly this is where things could go awry. I suspect there will be casualties among the friends in the UK as some decide they have been knowingly misled. Some won't tolerate that.
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simon
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Post by simon on Jun 20, 2015 21:38:00 GMT -5
The UK is just getting a taster of what Southern Hemisphereans have had for years. Based on our experience, I doubt there will be many ‘casualties’ amongst the friends in the UK. Graham Thompson left the work making it clear that the overseers could not be relied on to defend or promote truth. He is largely forgotten already and, apart from his own sacrifice on grounds of conscience, there have been no ‘casualties’ that I have seen. People were interested for a few days and then slipped back to sleep.
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Post by meerkat on Jun 21, 2015 10:43:48 GMT -5
Meerkat, I'm pretty sure you and I will know each other from what you have said. I too have spent lots of time with Percy and others in the family. Percy, I always thought, was a very kind and humble man. It would be naive however to think that therefore he cannot be guilty. Whilst he always seemed very nice to me, and clearly you, that is not proof of anything. His suicide, whilst tragic, will always imply guilt. The note he left also does this. Looks can be deceptive and I understand this. I have no idea if he was innocent or guilty and neither do you. That is the truth of the matter. Aristotle you are right of course. I was just assuming innocence until proven otherwise and likely we will never know the full story. I was just upset that some people were making wild accusations and assumptions about him.I will always remember him with affection in any case and just feel heart sorry for ALL involved in this happening.
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Post by greysparrow on Jun 21, 2015 14:46:53 GMT -5
This is as much as I know. The newspaper had some sloppy reporting. Percy did not say he 'was sorry for the trouble he had caused' but 'the trouble he was causing'. I thought this could refer to his imminent demise. Also he did not say he 'wanted to give his accuser some peace' but that he 'hoped the accuser would cease' . I believe this gives a different slant to the report. When I spoke with Percy about this affair he seemed bewildered and saddened by it, I now know that the other family had been good friends with the Watkins for may years and Percy held them in high regard and so it would have been the emotions I would have felt in a similar situation. Thank you Scott, I had been puzzled that Percy had said he could not get in touch with his accuser, did not know where he was and had written, I understood, more than once but had no idea if he had even received them. It seems the accusations all came through a third party as you said. Gene, my apologies for not being more clear. It seems 'Al' came to visit the farm for several years from a schoolboy until he married. The initial date of the incident was when Percy and 'Al' would have been sharing a bedroom but was later changed to an earlier date when there was likely to have been 3 or 4 sharing the bedroom and 'Al' would then have been a minor. Aristotle, you are right, a good bloke can be a rogue. I realise that this is the Watkins side of the story as told by a sympathiser, without the Watkins knowledge I ought to add, but unless Percy was a very good actor he did seem genuinely horrified about the accusation that he had touched him. Emy, I have no idea if the note was in his handwriting, he had quite a distinctive style, but what a horrific way to go, but shows how desperate his state and how bleak his mind must have been. I would have thought your sense of survival would be too strong but his sense of doing the right thing or not knowing what else he could do must have overwhelmed everything else.
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Grief
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Post by Grief on Jun 21, 2015 15:42:54 GMT -5
This is as much as I know. The newspaper had some sloppy reporting. Percy did not say he 'was sorry for the trouble he had caused' but 'the trouble he was causing'. I thought this could refer to his imminent demise. Also he did not say he 'wanted to give his accuser some peace' but that he 'hoped the accuser would cease' . I believe this gives a different slant to the report. When I spoke with Percy about this affair he seemed bewildered and saddened by it, I now know that the other family had been good friends with the Watkins for may years and Percy held them in high regard and so it would have been the emotions I would have felt in a similar situation. Thank you Scott, I had been puzzled that Percy had said he could not get in touch with his accuser, did not know where he was and had written, I understood, more than once but had no idea if he had even received them. It seems the accusations all came through a third party as you said. Gene, my apologies for not being more clear. It seems 'Al' came to visit the farm for several years from a schoolboy until he married. The initial date of the incident was when Percy and 'Al' would have been sharing a bedroom but was later changed to an earlier date when there was likely to have been 3 or 4 sharing the bedroom and 'Al' would then have been a minor. Aristotle, you are right, a good bloke can be a rogue. I realise that this is the Watkins side of the story as told by a sympathiser, without the Watkins knowledge I ought to add, but unless Percy was a very good actor he did seem genuinely horrified about the accusation that he had touched him. Emy, I have no idea if the note was in his handwriting, he had quite a distinctive style, but what a horrific way to go, but shows how desperate his state and how bleak his mind must have been. I would have thought your sense of survival would be too strong but his sense of doing the right thing or not knowing what else he could do must have overwhelmed everything else.
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Grief
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Post by Grief on Jun 21, 2015 16:04:57 GMT -5
Interesting to hear what greysparrow has to add, regarding 'sloppy reporting' and certainly does add a different slant on things! It is difficult to establish a correct understanding or the real truth, unless you have read the note for yourself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 16:26:03 GMT -5
Remembering clearly being overcome by depression in Sweden, knowing something was wrong, injured, unable to continue in that work, feeling defeated, and ashamed for thinking about "giving" up and losing my place, having none depending upon me, it is not the least bit difficult for me to empathize with the poor fellow's dispair and desperation. It has been said just one breath in under warm water and it is soon over. Sad. Perhaps best now for all of us to just quit discussing it, for the sake of those who grieve, yes/no?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 21, 2015 16:33:57 GMT -5
The UK is just getting a taster of what Southern Hemisphereans have had for years. Based on our experience, I doubt there will be many ‘casualties’ amongst the friends in the UK. Graham Thompson left the work making it clear that the overseers could not be relied on to defend or promote truth. He is largely forgotten already and, apart from his own sacrifice on grounds of conscience, there have been no ‘casualties’ that I have seen. People were interested for a few days and then slipped back to sleep. Simon you say what those of the southern hemisphere have had for years. One sole worker became a ' sacrifice on grounds of conscience' to make you aware that ' overseers could not be relied on to defend or promote truth'. But you don't seem inclined to be in support and be the one to start the flood of casualties? You limit your involvement to an occasional post on a forum read by a few friends and ex members? Ah, so indeed we may well be only "few friends and ex members" do remember the words of Margret Mead. "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. "
"Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 16:59:51 GMT -5
This is as much as I know. The newspaper had some sloppy reporting. Percy did not say he 'was sorry for the trouble he had caused' but 'the trouble he was causing'. I thought this could refer to his imminent demise. Also he did not say he 'wanted to give his accuser some peace' but that he 'hoped the accuser would cease' . I believe this gives a different slant to the report. When I spoke with Percy about this affair he seemed bewildered and saddened by it, I now know that the other family had been good friends with the Watkins for may years and Percy held them in high regard and so it would have been the emotions I would have felt in a similar situation. Thank you Scott, I had been puzzled that Percy had said he could not get in touch with his accuser, did not know where he was and had written, I understood, more than once but had no idea if he had even received them. It seems the accusations all came through a third party as you said. Gene, my apologies for not being more clear. It seems 'Al' came to visit the farm for several years from a schoolboy until he married. The initial date of the incident was when Percy and 'Al' would have been sharing a bedroom but was later changed to an earlier date when there was likely to have been 3 or 4 sharing the bedroom and 'Al' would then have been a minor. Aristotle, you are right, a good bloke can be a rogue. I realise that this is the Watkins side of the story as told by a sympathiser, without the Watkins knowledge I ought to add, but unless Percy was a very good actor he did seem genuinely horrified about the accusation that he had touched him. Emy, I have no idea if the note was in his handwriting, he had quite a distinctive style, but what a horrific way to go, but shows how desperate his state and how bleak his mind must have been. I would have thought your sense of survival would be too strong but his sense of doing the right thing or not knowing what else he could do must have overwhelmed everything else. greysparrow - I find this rather odd. Did you have access to the suicide note? If not, on what do you base your comments about "sloppy reporting". Did you ask the newspaper to print a correction? I knew Percy pretty well (he was a good friend) and I can well imagine him writing the rather gracious "wanting to give his accuser some peace". I have some difficulty in imagining him writing the rather graceless "wanting his accuser to cease" (quite apart from the fact that the latter statement doesn't really make sense). But if you are right, should the newspaper not be asked to print a correction (in fairness to Percy)?
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Post by greysparrow on Jun 21, 2015 17:18:35 GMT -5
Finlandia , No I have not seen the note, and I too thought Percy wishing him peace was typical of his attitude, but my source was adamant that that was not what was written and thought it would suggest a rightful punishment. Interpretation is in how you look at it. I perhaps should have mentioned that some of what I wrote is secondhand.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 17:26:57 GMT -5
greysparrow - thanks for your reply. In the absence of specific evidence, I for one will discount any suggestions of "sloppy reporting". Let's not forget - and I am sure you don't - that there is another party (still living) involved in this tragic affair.
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Post by bendle on Jun 22, 2015 19:08:22 GMT -5
As more facts have come out and the inquest has been, it is clear that there is much to infer or interpret or whatever. Unless anyone has direct access to and can quote verbatim from Percy's letter then unfortunately secondhand snippets are always going to open up a can of worms. I have defended Percy and will continue to do so and think highly of him, I believe him to have been a decent honourable man but as I do not know his accuser I have no way of ascertaining the facts from their point of view. To those who take a view that his action proves his guilt I simply say this- Put yourself in his shoes and think about how you would cope with the accusation that he faced. I feel that his action is consistent with his reputation as a peacemaker and whatever the wording of the letter I am sure that the intent would have been to give closure to the matter. There are no winners here. Two families have lost the friendship they once shared, a man has lost his life and much hurt has been caused. It all could have been handled so differently and the outcome have been so much better if specialist people who had no vested interests, no axes to grind etc had been involved from the start of the matter. The person who made the allegation too needs help and support as i'm sure that this outcome was not the intention
A lesson here for everyone is that nothing is worth this much hurt and distress. Things that should be talked about must be talked about. I urge anyone who is bottling something up to talk about it no matter what it is. Find somebody with an ear to listen, try me- I'll listen! There are so many ways to get hold of someone to talk to such as the Samaritans here in the uk. Talking does help. It may be a first step to a resolution of something.
I've written all I wish to write. I'll go out tomorrow into this beautiful shire and be thankful for my life and my family and my health and my sanity and the view that is pretty special too. I'm working tomorrow in the village where Percy is buried. As I drive past the graveyard I will think of him.
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Post by meerkat on Jun 24, 2015 16:01:12 GMT -5
Thanks Bendle you are also a decent honourable man and I agree with everything you say.Having known dear Percy and his family very well also I am glad that there are some who are willing and able to put in a word without being biased. I also feel sorry for his accuser and he certainly will need support from others too. Yes talking does help immensely and I don't agree with how some situations are handled or not handled. I had a major addiction when I was still going to meetings and didn't feel I could ever talk to anyone about it in the fellowship. I found help outside and eventually this led me to a relationship with someone who would never be accepted in the meetings. I had to break away completely and I am glad of the peace and happiness I have found by making a definite decision.I feel glad that I have no need for bitterness and have a good relationship with my family and the workers and friends. I still believe in God but my concept has changed and I am not a religious person. Life is good and who knows what tomorrow will hold for any of us life certainly has some very unexpected twists and turns but it is important to live life one day at a time.
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Post by magpie on Oct 13, 2015 17:13:20 GMT -5
You will dislike this-so be it. In our State alone (Victoria)many victims have suicided,including 2x children.Mental breakdowns,families dividing,innocence removed from teens and children. In the last couple of years 2x workers given jail sentences,(one suspended) Ernie Barry (lovely godly man we thought) over 30 known victims 13 under aged. Chris Chandler,again lovely person? 12 victims just finished his jail term...In my life workers started on me 7x decades ago.Now 2x moved o/seas and one interstate from the revelations of their deviant sexual urges.. Both of these Bruce and Monty (Monty one of 3xworkers who caused a lovely man to develope Bi-Polar disorder and then so ashamed suicided. Now all these =just a touch of the unbiblically demanded celibate ministries his/her workers of of unatural behaviours,sexually adultries,rapes,"CRIMINAL CSAs",etc Now Bruce and Monty have been partnered and given the town of Nar Nar Goon (Apt meaning WATER RATS)to preach in. People stillattend and take their children to their meetings,by "WATER RAT & GOON"..Watkins might have been lovely so were the ones mentioned above...Me ex-"Christian Convention of Victoria=Reg'd and "inc".
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Post by magpie on Oct 13, 2015 18:17:32 GMT -5
The heresy of only way exclusivsm,preacher only ministry,no justice,welfare Pastoral compassion,ostracisms(casting people out to hell),judgement by visual conforming,denying people of the Lord's table (communion) the illusive sect. This makes for denial and self protection.Ephesians 4,Vs 11/12, 1 Corinthians 9,Vs 5/6,1 Timothy 5,Vs 19/22. Here they would cast out a victim and keep the bady as that is easier to handle,just swap the Bady for another States preacher. Also here in South Australia Steven Schultz was kicked out of the sect because he laid a charge that an old favourite was involved in inappropriate sexual behaviour,again the easy option and again no justice for the victims... Look up "Worker friends and ex board" You from this you will see why the (supposed) Nameless Church,is on the list to be heard at the Federal Governments Royal Commission into CSA (CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE).Police files are amongst the submissions..........This all doesn't sound like the Salvation teachings,life,Grace,love of Christ and from the Epistles,I know. ]
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Post by magpie on Oct 14, 2015 17:26:48 GMT -5
Christian Convention's statistics show that as RC and other unbiblically demanded celibacy priests/preachers the victim has the odds that they are right. Celibacy of course attracts many who want to avoid their mental disorder of paedophilia,unatural urges,etc. Honerable if theydont slip from the celibate vow before God.Has counselling/pastoring been given or offered to the victim(s)? Or do you just hang them out to dry? If victim is right as statistics favour,how are you all going to handle your gossip and mud slinging? Will the Bishop on behalf make a PUBLIC appology for the strss they 2x2s put the victim through----Not likely,cause selfrightiousness comes first in Christian Conventions doesn't it?.
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Post by chimpingtongb on Aug 12, 2020 4:20:03 GMT -5
Does Percy have a sister named Eileen? Percy has two sisters who are Workers-Eileen and Joyce. Eileen labours in England and her sister is abroad.They both attended the funeral with about 300 others. Eileen has had a tough time recently as she is recovering from major surgery. My Mother and a number of family members attended the funeral. Some of them intimated that they may be aware of the allegation specifics but refuse to tell me as I'm a worldly outsider.
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Post by passingby on Feb 26, 2023 13:44:05 GMT -5
I read a good half of the posts in this thread, and would like to thank Bendle and Meerkat for their contributions
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Post by fixit on May 4, 2023 15:28:19 GMT -5
The email from Ben Crompton, read out in the Sunday afternoon mission (1st March) ran something along the lines of this: "Percy has been under considerable personal and emotional stress recently due to legal allegations made against him from some time ago. Upon seeking legal advice, he was told that no matter how untrue these allegations, it is almost impossible to prove innocence. It seems that Percy could find no other way than to take his own life and so avoid further damage to the kingdom." The implication of this statement is that if that if one is pressing charges against a worker, he/she is doing damage to the kingdom. Also, that it is commendable to commit suicide in order to "protect" the kingdom. Also, that a worker is always innocent regardless of whether the allegation against him can be proven in court or not. And, that the person pressing charges against this worker is ultimately responsible for his death. Also, that anybody else who may press charges against a worker will be viewed as doing damage to the kingdom and to the worker. This is interesting in light of recent revelations.
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Post by themaninthemirror on May 4, 2023 15:43:24 GMT -5
The implication of this statement is that if that if one is pressing charges against a worker, he/she is doing damage to the kingdom. Also, that it is commendable to commit suicide in order to "protect" the kingdom. Also, that a worker is always innocent regardless of whether the allegation against him can be proven in court or not. And, that the person pressing charges against this worker is ultimately responsible for his death. Also, that anybody else who may press charges against a worker will be viewed as doing damage to the kingdom and to the worker. This is interesting in light of recent revelations. Again - an extremely senior worker apparently commits suicide - and Ben Crompton and David Delaney make NO formal statement. This is ridiculous.
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