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Post by meerkat on Mar 8, 2015 6:16:07 GMT -5
I knew Percy on a personal level and also some of his family. I am an ex member and found him to be the same with me regardless of my status and I personally have and will continue to regard him as a honourable, decent, honest bloke who I have known for a good many years and who should be the last person to have allegations made about him of any sort. The fact that he took his own life is distressing enough but to then have it put about that this was in part due to unseemly allegations (the implication being that he took the easy way out) is simply awful. I agree that legal allegations of certain sorts have a right to be heard and guilt or innocence established but the atmosphere in the uk in general right now means that there is a 'no smoke without fire' attitude which is all pervasive and will continue to wreak havoc in innocent lives. The message which has apparently been read out and the phrasing of it, are obviously going to generate much discussion, and due to the anonymity of the internet, much stirring and possibly some trolling also. I would ask it of all of you to be respectful of the family and not add to the distress already caused to them by needless speculating over the circumstances which led to his death. He has already been turned into a pawn in the dealings of others and this is distasteful in the extreme. If you have something valid to add then do so but please, remember the family. I have never posted on here before but I feel exactly as you do bendle.What a sad end to the life of a lovely,sincere and feeling man-one of the best.I knew Percy very well and all his family who are all made of the same material and deeply caring.I was very deeply involved with the meetings for many years but circumstances changed and I quit a few years ago after meeting my present partner.Thankfully I have no cause for bitterness either but feel for those who do for various reasons.I have the workers to stay often as members of my household are professing and have the utmost respect for each one as they give their lives. Maybe I am just fortunate to have never seen anything which would change this view and would never disrespect those who have obvious grievances but I can only speak as I have found. Percy was a very sensitive man and could only imagine that he would do what he felt was right which certainly does not mean he was guilty. None of us are able to judge as we have no facts and I don't even know what the accusations are against him.Does anyone know?
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Post by bendle on Mar 8, 2015 13:43:29 GMT -5
Meerkat, you are exactly right in summing up Percy. He was indeed a very sensitive man and I see no dishonour in his course of action, simply a man struggling and trying to do the right thing. He was clearly in an impossible situation in a position that was surely to become untenable. You are right about the family also, very decent and caring from the bottom to the top. (i'm beginning to suspect we have moved/move in some of the same circles!)
As to the allegation against him, I don't believe it has been made public, the fact that he sought legal advice would suggest that it was serious but the nature of it is unknown. I suspect I might be told in the fullness of time but i'm not going to ask about it.
There are clearly people with genuine grievances, clearly they need addressing and sorting out but I think that needs to happen from the inside to be meaningful, not seen as bitter ex members meddling, and perhaps those members on here could start the ball rolling by seeking clarification of this matter from the workers?
Meerkat, I'm glad you manage to balance up being a non member and surrounded by members. I thought I was in a minority of one as I have all my family in it (though we aren't terribly close emotionally or geographically) and my cousins who I am quite close to are members, worker, ex workers etc. I have numerous friends who are members whose friendship I value and do not want to put in jeopardy, I work quite a bit with one member, I do work for various members and in all I probably have as much to do with members as anyone else. I do sometimes find it a bit strange when i'm getting told about something I have no concern about or interest in but I just let it go in one ear and out of the other. Or I go somewhere and folks recognise me and assume i'm also a member because i'm at the same occasion as them. I had to ask one gentleman to take onboard the fact that my wife has shortish hair and wears earrings before he'd stop telling us all about his convention ground and his niece in the work who he couldn't believe that I didn't know.....
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 8, 2015 14:22:34 GMT -5
I am really disturbed by the comments of some people concerning this matter -- as though lending some "understanding" of this worker's somewhat "reasonable" choice to end his own life, considering the situation he was in.
Insane. Any person who can discuss his case with an attorney, but has to take his own life because of the group he associates with, raises serious questions: (1) Has someone in the fellowship threatened his life? (2) Does he owe his life to the protection of someone else's reputation? (3) How can anyone else believe it couldn't happen to them? (4) Does anyone know of a way to prevent it from happening to them?
It's called a "ministry", not a "death panel". Suicide that is not brought on by mental illness is brought on by the fear of consequences from other people, and judging from people who knew Percy Watkins, it doesn't appear he suffered from mental illness. In a civilized society, no one has to commit suicide for any reason.
And someone considers returning to this perplexing scene???
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Post by meerkat on Mar 8, 2015 14:29:17 GMT -5
Meerkat, you are exactly right in summing up Percy. He was indeed a very sensitive man and I see no dishonour in his course of action, simply a man struggling and trying to do the right thing. He was clearly in an impossible situation in a position that was surely to become untenable. You are right about the family also, very decent and caring from the bottom to the top. (i'm beginning to suspect we have moved/move in some of the same circles!) As to the allegation against him, I don't believe it has been made public, the fact that he sought legal advice would suggest that it was serious but the nature of it is unknown. I suspect I might be told in the fullness of time but i'm not going to ask about it. There are clearly people with genuine grievances, clearly they need addressing and sorting out but I think that needs to happen from the inside to be meaningful, not seen as bitter ex members meddling, and perhaps those members on here could start the ball rolling by seeking clarification of this matter from the workers? Meerkat, I'm glad you manage to balance up being a non member and surrounded by members. I thought I was in a minority of one as I have all my family in it (though we aren't terribly close emotionally or geographically) and my cousins who I am quite close to are members, worker, ex workers etc. I have numerous friends who are members whose friendship I value and do not want to put in jeopardy, I work quite a bit with one member, I do work for various members and in all I probably have as much to do with members as anyone else. I do sometimes find it a bit strange when i'm getting told about something I have no concern about or interest in but I just let it go in one ear and out of the other. Or I go somewhere and folks recognise me and assume i'm also a member because i'm at the same occasion as them. I had to ask one gentleman to take onboard the fact that my wife has shortish hair and wears earrings before he'd stop telling us all about his convention ground and his niece in the work who he couldn't believe that I didn't know.....
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Post by meerkat on Mar 8, 2015 14:40:49 GMT -5
Yes I sometimes feel that I am baffling to some people as I was fairly contented in the meetings and leaving was my own choice.When I met my partner I couldnt live a double life and he would never have been accepted even if he were interested in meetings.I had a personal issue a few years ago and Percy was an absolute diamond and non judgmental also his sister Eileen.I still love the friends and workers dearly and know that what has happened to dear Percy must be very confusing for some people.I would never ask what drove Percy to suicide either but I wanted to make the point that some people are suggesting various things without even knowing the truth. You sound like a happy person as I am who has found peace in life.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 14:41:13 GMT -5
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Post by bendle on Mar 8, 2015 14:42:53 GMT -5
I am really disturbed by the comments of some people concerning this matter -- as though lending some "understanding" of this worker's somewhat "reasonable" choice to end his own life, considering the situation he was in. Insane. Any person who can discuss his case with an attorney, but has to take his own life because of the group he associates with, raises serious questions: (1) Has someone in the fellowship threatened his life? (2) Does he owe his life to the protection of someone else's reputation? (3) How can anyone else believe it couldn't happen to them? (4) Does anyone know of a way to prevent it from happening to them? It's called a "ministry", not a "death panel". Suicide that is not brought on by mental illness is brought on by the fear of consequences from other people, and judging from people who knew Percy Watkins, it doesn't appear he suffered from mental illness. In a civilized society, no one has to commit suicide for any reason. And someone considers returning to this perplexing scene??? All I am trying to say personally Bob is that is that I am not judging Percy or condemning him because of the fact that he took his own life. I know that some people immediately jumped to one conclusion. If the court of the internet (I am not pointing the finger at this forum- there are many others)would refrain from judging him before the facts are known then that would be reasonable. I agree completely that your 4 questions ought to be answered. Going by what the US members are saying about other issues, one has to wonder if that will happen.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 8, 2015 15:17:31 GMT -5
I am really disturbed by the comments of some people concerning this matter -- as though lending some "understanding" of this worker's somewhat "reasonable" choice to end his own life, considering the situation he was in. Insane. Any person who can discuss his case with an attorney, but has to take his own life because of the group he associates with, raises serious questions: (1) Has someone in the fellowship threatened his life? (2) Does he owe his life to the protection of someone else's reputation? (3) How can anyone else believe it couldn't happen to them? (4) Does anyone know of a way to prevent it from happening to them? It's called a "ministry", not a "death panel". Suicide that is not brought on by mental illness is brought on by the fear of consequences from other people, and judging from people who knew Percy Watkins, it doesn't appear he suffered from mental illness. In a civilized society, no one has to commit suicide for any reason. And someone considers returning to this perplexing scene??? All I am trying to say personally Bob is that is that I am not judging Percy or condemning him because of the fact that he took his own life. I know that some people immediately jumped to one conclusion. If the court of the internet (I am not pointing the finger at this forum- there are many others)would refrain from judging him before the facts are known then that would be reasonable. I agree completely that your 4 questions ought to be answered. Going by what the US members are saying about other issues, one has to wonder if that will happen. I thought I was agreeing with others that Percy wasn't to be judged for his predicament. And I actually expect that any praise for the attitude of the friends and workers is truly positive. But that's not the problem at all. It doesn't matter how nice everyone is -- the fact that someone had to commit suicide because of the dynamics in the group should be a warning sign TO EVERY GOOD AND CARING PERSON IN THE GROUP that they are not protected from the very same kind of incident. It doesn't sound like that's a concern among them at all. Who among them is demanding a proper investigation? My experience is that such a demand NEVER comes from within the group -- in other words, they don't mind putting up with it.
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Post by meerkat on Mar 8, 2015 15:29:56 GMT -5
All I am trying to say personally Bob is that is that I am not judging Percy or condemning him because of the fact that he took his own life. I know that some people immediately jumped to one conclusion. If the court of the internet (I am not pointing the finger at this forum- there are many others)would refrain from judging him before the facts are known then that would be reasonable. I agree completely that your 4 questions ought to be answered. Going by what the US members are saying about other issues, one has to wonder if that will happen. I thought I was agreeing with others that Percy wasn't to be judged for his predicament. And I actually expect that any praise for the attitude of the friends and workers is truly positive. But that's not the problem at all. It doesn't matter how nice everyone is -- the fact that someone had to commit suicide because of the dynamics in the group should be a warning sign TO EVERY GOOD AND CARING PERSON IN THE GROUP that they are not protected from the very same kind of incident. It doesn't sound like that's a concern among them at all. Who among them is demanding a proper investigation? My experience is that such a demand NEVER comes from within the group -- in other words, they don't mind putting up with it.
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Post by meerkat on Mar 8, 2015 15:46:18 GMT -5
Exactly it is so much easier to sweep it all under the carpet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 16:03:44 GMT -5
There are clearly people with genuine grievances, clearly they need addressing and sorting out but I think that needs to happen from the inside to be meaningful, not seen as bitter ex members meddling, and perhaps those members on here could start the ball rolling by seeking clarification of this matter from the workers? *** I disagree. And I dislike these labels. Anyone with past, present or future interests in the group has a right and responsibility to deal with such matters. The law doesn't label people as inside, ex or whatever and neither should we do this. Nothing has happened or will happen from the inside. Forget it, friend, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Jean didn't profess when she told her story leading to Ray Hoffman becoming overseer of TX instead of IH. There is a certain percentage of ex-members who relish the "I don't have a stake in this" mentality and I am here to tell you guys that YOU ARE WRONG. If abuse happened during your meeting days and you somehow continue to cover it up, the court system won't accept an "ex status" as an excuse. We are ALL in this together. Labels are meaningless as far as I am concerned. Those who brag that they walked away without bitterness are NO BETTER people than those who speak out against past concerns on forums like this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 16:07:34 GMT -5
One can call the coroner if interested. I am not sure I would understand their English accent. ***************** Home > Residents > Life events HM Coroner Blackpool and Fylde Download as PDFPrint this pageLast Modified March 06, 2015Share this page
Her Majesty’s Coroner for Blackpool and Fylde is Mr Alan Wilson. Coroner's responsibilities Coroners are required by law to investigate any sudden or unexplained death. They are independent of both local and central government and are required to act in accordance with laid down rules and procedures. In most cases no further action is required and the death can be registered as normal. In some cases the coroner may decide a post mortem examination is necessary to determine the cause of death. However in some circumstances, the coroner may decide to hold an inquest to further establish the facts surrounding the death.
The coroner will investigate where a death appears to: Be due to violence Be unnatural Be of sudden and of unknown cause Have occurred in legal custody Inquests An inquest is a formal court hearing at which a coroner must establish who died and how, when and where the death occurred. An inquest must be held if a sudden death was violent or traumatic, or if the cause of an unexpected death has not been explained by illness or disease. Inquests are public hearings and are usually held at designated coroner’s courts in the district where the death occurred. Forthcoming inquests Date Time Name Notes 10 March 10.00 am Paul Frazer 11.30 am James Turner 11 March 10.00 am Kathleen Cooke 12 March 10.00 am Michael Whittaker 17 March 10.00 am Charles Short 11.30 am John Flitcroft 18 March 10.00 am Kevin Winter 12.00 pm Stanley Fowler 2.00 pm Ronald Smith 19 March 10.00 am Susan Daniels Pre-Inquest Review 24 March 10.00 am Michael Lee Pre-Inquest Review 26 March 10.00 am Caroline Walker 31 March 1.00 pm Sarah Cullen 1 April 10.00 am Winifred Russell 1.00 pm Raymond McCullough 2 April 12.00 pm Olive Darbyshire Review 2.00 pm Alex Nordquist 8 April 2.00 pm Jane Bell Review 15 April 10.00 am Mark Kerrigan 11.30 am Ian Clarke 16 April 10.00 am Frederick Unsworth 21 April 10.00 am Michael Brown 11.30 am Stephen Brian Lafferty 22 April 2.00 pm Olive Darbyshire 23 April 10.00 am George Loy 2.00 pm Piotr Kucharz Pre-Inquest Review 28 April 10.00 am Ruth Mills 11.30 am Brian Blake 29 April 10.00 am Ruth Mayell 30 April 10.00 am Christine Pratt 11.30 am Samuel McGibney 6 May 10.00 am Grace Ryles 11.30 am Andrew Macdonald 7 May 10.00 am Thomas Kennedy 11.30 am Oswald Griffiths 2.00 pm Paul Walker 12 May 10.00 am Mark Hirst 11.30 am Caren Slater 2.00 pm Simon Pook 13 May 10.00 am Allan Turnbull 11.30 am Thomas Reilly 2.00 pm Doreen Buckley 14 May 10.00am Freddie Neil 11.30am Tammerine Lee 1.00pm David Nield 19 May 10.00 am Daniel James D'Arcy 11.30 am Louie 27 May 2.00 pm Michael Hayden 28 May 2.00 pm Irene Barker 2 June 10.00 am Dorothy Needham 11.30 am Georgina Gomm 2.00 pm Barrie Wilkinson 3 June 10.00 am Tania Abram 1.00 pm Kenneth Valentine 4 June 10.00 am Peter McGreevey 11.30 am Daniel Carroll 9 June 10.00 am Graham Smith 11.30 am John Purcell 2.00 pm Peter Gaffney 10 June 10.00 am Brenda and Derek Coulton 16 June 10.00 am Percy Watkins 11.30 am Joanna Flint 2.00 pm Joseph Byrne 17 June 10.00 am Tom Mitchell 11.30 am Elizabeth Anderson 18 June 10.00 am Michael Ward 23 June 10.00 am John Evans 24 June 10.00 am John Edmund Rady 11.30 am Inger Stevenson Contact
Blackpool & Fylde Coroner’s Office Municipal Buildings Corporation Street Blackpool FY1 1GB Telephone: 01253 477128 Fax: 01253 477129 The office is open Monday to Friday, 9.00am to 5.00pm however any telephone calls will only be dealt with between the hours of 10.00am and 4.00 pm and the office does close for lunch each day between 1.00pm and 2.00pm.
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Post by bendle on Mar 8, 2015 16:18:27 GMT -5
Bob, it seems I slightly misunderstood you and I apologise. The group dynamic, its implications and the problems it has caused are truly wrong. However, i feel that most members will not realise that they are to be hung out to dry if they cross the line and many will put up with anything because they are brought up to believe the propaganda etc of worker infallibility. If something is all you have, and for most that will be the case, then you will not put that at risk by being 'unsheeplike'.
I'll keep my ear to the ground to listen out for demands for a full investigation. Here's to hoping.....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 16:27:34 GMT -5
You may be right in your summation or may be wrong; however, man with all his self appointed powers and authority can deceive and hide from man and do unfair/illegal things but He cannot hide from God and do them. Power, absolute power, corrupts. Man will be judged in the end. This thought probably does not immediately help those victims who have suffered and are suffering injustices, and are demoralized and have to live with it; but be comforted in the belief/knowledge that judgment and punishment will surely come, God is not sleeping. Judging by the track record of God to date, I wouldn't count on Him dealing out justice in the future. You may well be correct in your assertion that God is not sleeping but He may as well be for the good he has done in protecting the innocent from injustices perpetrated by His churches over the past number of years. Standing idly by and not giving a hoot seems to be what God does best and I see nothing whatsoever in the nature of God that would persuade me that He is likely to change merely because we have crossed to the other side. Of course the proper place for justice to be sought in the UK is in the courts. In the UK everyone is presumed innocent until proven otherwise and the burden of proof therefore rests with the prosecution to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt. It is this undeniable fact that makes the claim in the alleged email that legal advice had been given to the effect that 'it is almost impossible to prove innocence' rather peculiar indeed. I would suggest that any lawyer worth his salt would be much more likely to advise a client who was innocent of a criminal allegation made against them that it was perfectly possible for a 'not guilty' verdict to be the outcome of any subsequent court case. Indeed it is the job of a defence lawyer to work towards such an outcome in the case of a client claiming innocence by putting forward an appropriate defence. It would be interesting if the alleged legal advice was to be submitted as evidence at the forthcoming inquest or indeed if the email allegedly read out by BC is submitted. I would like to think that if the leader of a religious organisation suggests in an official statement that a very senior leader of that organisation has taken his own life for reasons associated with the good of that organisation that this would be deemed by the coroner as evidence worth considering. For anyone thinking of attending to avail themselves of the facts, below is a useful guide to what happens at a coroner's inquest in the UK. Matt10 www.inquest.org.uk/help/handbook/section-4-2-at-the-inquest
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Post by Greg on Mar 8, 2015 16:29:22 GMT -5
I thought I was agreeing with others that Percy wasn't to be judged for his predicament. And I actually expect that any praise for the attitude of the friends and workers is truly positive. But that's not the problem at all. It doesn't matter how nice everyone is -- the fact that someone had to commit suicide because of the dynamics in the group should be a warning sign TO EVERY GOOD AND CARING PERSON IN THE GROUP that they are not protected from the very same kind of incident. It doesn't sound like that's a concern among them at all. Who among them is demanding a proper investigation? My experience is that such a demand NEVER comes from within the group -- in other words, they don't mind putting up with it. Could be the same feeling (despair) could be had outside the fellowship. "Who will hire me now? Who will be my friend now? Who will be my dating partner or wife now?"
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Post by bendle on Mar 8, 2015 16:58:24 GMT -5
There are clearly people with genuine grievances, clearly they need addressing and sorting out but I think that needs to happen from the inside to be meaningful, not seen as bitter ex members meddling, and perhaps those members on here could start the ball rolling by seeking clarification of this matter from the workers? *** I disagree. And I dislike these labels. Anyone with past, present or future interests in the group has a right and responsibility to deal with such matters. The law doesn't label people as inside, ex or whatever and neither should we do this. Nothing has happened or will happen from the inside. Forget it, friend, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Jean didn't profess when she told her story leading to Ray Hoffman becoming overseer of TX instead of IH. There is a certain percentage of ex-members who relish the "I don't have a stake in this" mentality and I am here to tell you guys that YOU ARE WRONG. If abuse happened during your meeting days and you somehow continue to cover it up, the court system won't accept an "ex status" as an excuse. We are ALL in this together. Labels are meaningless as far as I am concerned. Those who brag that they walked away without bitterness are NO BETTER people than those who speak out against past concerns on forums like this. Sorry Mr Walker, not getting a full sense of what you mean. I am not calling ex-members bitter or angry, simply i have sat through conventions where this how ex-members have been described by various workers and clearly this is how i or anyone else will be described if we were to 'interfere' in the 'church'. If you think i am some online apologist for the 'church' then you couldn't be further from the truth. As for my responsibility, if there was something i knew of, rest assured that i would have had the English pope by the throat by now- I've had plenty of chances. However, i don't know of anything untoward, so you tell me what i should do or better still what i am covering up? I don't know if you are a current member or not but if you are would you care to start asking questions? And what good exactly is shouting over the web doing to sort anything out, surely getting up close and personal is the answer? As for bragging that i have no bitterness, why on earth would you think i was bragging? I have nothing to brag about, i'm not seeing myself as better than those who have had bad experiences within the 'church'. After reading some of the stuff on here i am simply thanking my lucky stars that i seem to have had a relatively benign experience of it all and have been able to build myself a life outside. If there is a face book group to help ex members i would probably be on it but I've never found one, (incidentally we appear to have at least one of the same facebook friends), i only found this group very recently. My main point therefore for not involving myself in something that i have no real wish to be involved in is this- i am basically an atheist. If i become involved in 'church' issues i am acknowledging that the 'church' still has power over me. I would feel like those kids who were a big fish at school and after leaving school would hang about the school gates because they'd nothing better to do yet. I have something better to do. Getting on with the rest of my life because it has no power over me!!! I appreciate that you might have different view and i wish you all luck in your efforts to affect the change that you desire.
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Post by emy on Mar 8, 2015 18:21:38 GMT -5
I am really disturbed by the comments of some people concerning this matter -- as though lending some "understanding" of this worker's somewhat "reasonable" choice to end his own life, considering the situation he was in. Insane. Any person who can discuss his case with an attorney, but has to take his own life because of the group he associates with, raises serious questions: (1) Has someone in the fellowship threatened his life? (2) Does he owe his life to the protection of someone else's reputation? (3) How can anyone else believe it couldn't happen to them? (4) Does anyone know of a way to prevent it from happening to them? It's called a "ministry", not a "death panel". Suicide that is not brought on by mental illness is brought on by the fear of consequences from other people, and judging from people who knew Percy Watkins, it doesn't appear he suffered from mental illness. In a civilized society, no one has to commit suicide for any reason. And someone considers returning to this perplexing scene??? because of the group he associates with That was not the reason I took away from the announcement. Rather, he was in distress because he would not be able to prove his innocence, according to the judicial system he lived in. I didn't understand that anyone on here was in Percy's closest circle, but that they knew him well from observation. (I could be totally mistaken.) So it's a big assumption to say he didn't suffer from mental illness. And of course no one HAS to commit suicide - in any society, but people do. Every day. And they, especially their families and friends, deserve compassion.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 8, 2015 19:32:11 GMT -5
I thought I was agreeing with others that Percy wasn't to be judged for his predicament. And I actually expect that any praise for the attitude of the friends and workers is truly positive. But that's not the problem at all. It doesn't matter how nice everyone is -- the fact that someone had to commit suicide because of the dynamics in the group should be a warning sign TO EVERY GOOD AND CARING PERSON IN THE GROUP that they are not protected from the very same kind of incident. It doesn't sound like that's a concern among them at all. Who among them is demanding a proper investigation? My experience is that such a demand NEVER comes from within the group -- in other words, they don't mind putting up with it. Could be the same feeling (despair) could be had outside the fellowship. "Who will hire me now? Who will be my friend now? Who will be my dating partner or wife now?" I would accept your suggestion if workers were to become despaired because of such things like not getting hired or not finding someone to date, or a wife, etc. A person could attribute that despair to some lack in themselves. That's not what happened in this worker's case, it seems. He was in despair by a situation created by someone else that he had no power whatsoever to escape or overcome.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 19:47:53 GMT -5
Walker has been good enough to post the date of the Coroner's inquest 16th June. Until that time we should all take a cold shower, and as Emy states show compassion toward family and friends close to the situation.
I applaud both bendle and meerkat for their posts and the divine grace they show as ex's. It is an example to all ex's, and with that attitude TMB will be a better place. We may not like the 2x2 doctrine, and that is why we chose to leave. But continue to love the people, even if we are shunned by some including our own family. There are plenty of good 2x2 people, that we can have as friends, as stated by meercat and bendle. Don't become bitter, it only destroys you. Make the most of your life, that speaks louder than words.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 8, 2015 19:57:40 GMT -5
I am really disturbed by the comments of some people concerning this matter -- as though lending some "understanding" of this worker's somewhat "reasonable" choice to end his own life, considering the situation he was in. Insane. Any person who can discuss his case with an attorney, but has to take his own life because of the group he associates with, raises serious questions: (1) Has someone in the fellowship threatened his life? (2) Does he owe his life to the protection of someone else's reputation? (3) How can anyone else believe it couldn't happen to them? (4) Does anyone know of a way to prevent it from happening to them? It's called a "ministry", not a "death panel". Suicide that is not brought on by mental illness is brought on by the fear of consequences from other people, and judging from people who knew Percy Watkins, it doesn't appear he suffered from mental illness. In a civilized society, no one has to commit suicide for any reason. And someone considers returning to this perplexing scene??? because of the group he associates with That was not the reason I took away from the announcement. Rather, he was in distress because he would not be able to prove his innocence, according to the judicial system he lived in. I know that's why he was depressed. But I assumed that (1) his accuser was in some way associated with the F&W, and that (2) his relationship with the F&W had been destroyed because of it. Otherwise, what difference would it make to him now if some unnamed stranger who made an accusation a long time ago? I didn't suggest anyone here was part of his closest circle. I just haven't heard that any of the F&W in the UK have asked any of the questions I have asked. But I recall reading here that someone was considering returning.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 8, 2015 23:56:19 GMT -5
You won't get a MacDonald agreeing with that!
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Post by Greg on Mar 9, 2015 1:57:26 GMT -5
Could be the same feeling (despair) could be had outside the fellowship. "Who will hire me now? Who will be my friend now? Who will be my dating partner or wife now?" I would accept your suggestion if workers were to become despaired because of such things like not getting hired or not finding someone to date, or a wife, etc. A person could attribute that despair to some lack in themselves. That's not what happened in this worker's case, it seems. He was in despair by a situation created by someone else that he had no power whatsoever to escape or overcome. The despair of allegations that brought the "solution" of suicide is more attributed to the individual psyche, I think, than to group association. Though an extreme group situation (not that of the friends and workers) could seem to force such a solution. Still, if it was forced, seems there would be more incidents of suicide in such cases. Others noted in this forum that had allegations, if indeed they are of the same sort, did not commit suicide. They seem to not have had the same despair though they are/were in the same group.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 9, 2015 2:44:21 GMT -5
I would accept your suggestion if workers were to become despaired because of such things like not getting hired or not finding someone to date, or a wife, etc. A person could attribute that despair to some lack in themselves. That's not what happened in this worker's case, it seems. He was in despair by a situation created by someone else that he had no power whatsoever to escape or overcome. The despair of allegations that brought the "solution" of suicide is more attributed to the individual psyche, I think, than to group association. Though an extreme group situation (not that of the friends and workers) could seem to force such a solution. Still, if it was forced, seems there would be more incidents of suicide in such cases. Others noted in this forum that had allegations, if indeed they are of the same sort, did not commit suicide. They seem to not have had the same despair though they are/were in the same group. Whether or not other people commit suicide in the same circumstances is irrelevant. Just because one person can endure something doesn't mean that anyone else can endure it at all. I expect that you know as well as I do that if it weren't for medical/professional help we'd have heard about a few more worker suicides -- one I could name.
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Post by bendle on Mar 9, 2015 3:41:12 GMT -5
Walker has been good enough to post the date of the Coroner's inquest 16th June. Until that time we should all take a cold shower, and as Emy states show compassion toward family and friends close to the situation. I applaud both bendle and meerkat for thier posts and the divine grace they show as ex's. It is an example to all ex's, and with that attitude TMB will be a better place. We may not like the 2x2 doctrine, and that is why we chose to leave. But continue to love the people, even if we are shunned by some including our own family. There are plenty of good 2x2 people, that we can have as friends, as stated by meercat and bendle. Don't become bitter, it only destroys you. Make the most of your life, that speaks louder than words. You are entirely correct Redback. You have summed up the matter better in a couple of lines than I could ever in 20. I forgot to use the word 'compassion', how could I have been so dim.... As for alluding to my 'divine grace' I don't feel very divine or gracious, i came here with good intentions but have managed to argue/provoke, which doesn't make me happy. I am trying to make the most of my life, sadly my contact with my family is strained though getting slightly better(Though more to do with us than the 'church' I suspect) yet funnily enough there are other people who are members of the 'church' who accept me for what I am. As I stated, I am basically an atheist and I appreciate that that is not everyone's cup of tea but it is my private take on matters. I never came here for Percy the worker, rather for Percy the man who would happily make me a mug of of tea and came over and showed genuine interest in what I was doing on more than one occasion, who would muck in and help with crappy jobs for his family, friends etc rather than sit on his backside. I feel for the person who has made the allegation/allegations whatever they may be, I hope they find closure and redress in some way.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 6:47:31 GMT -5
Does Percy have a sister named Eileen?
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Post by bendle on Mar 9, 2015 15:10:24 GMT -5
Does Percy have a sister named Eileen? Three sisters, one is indeed called Eileen.
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Post by meerkat on Mar 10, 2015 16:19:33 GMT -5
Does Percy have a sister named Eileen? Percy has two sisters who are Workers-Eileen and Joyce. Eileen labours in England and her sister is abroad.They both attended the funeral with about 300 others. Eileen has had a tough time recently as she is recovering from major surgery.
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Post by toparrow on Mar 16, 2015 3:54:48 GMT -5
Calling Ben Crompton to stand down as leader. You are no use as a spin doctor. I am sure there enough funds in slush fund for your retirement.
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