Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 13:56:45 GMT -5
For me, the concept of all humanity being created equal has been difficult to accept true since first hearing it taught and expressed as true. I believe and accept as true the concept of equal opportunity for all, even equal rights for all in life. However, flatly equal by comparison?
Certainly not in talent, size, shape, not in heath, wealth, strength nor race. Not in emotionality, mentalality, physicallity, nor spirituality. There are quite likely other equally important qualities overlooked in this short synopsis which others should feel free to comment upon if they wish.
Even in other ways we all come out of the womb equal, however unfortunate life itself is not equal for everyone to my mind, and cannot even be made equal by human law nor effort. Even saying that does not mean effort should not be made to make life more equal for all, question in my mind is simply, "How?" Law is perhaps one failing answer at present. True charity could be another, yet how to implement even that equally?
Oh, I know, the Internet, everyone can demand equality, here!? However, I am thinking in real life, where those with the gold, rule.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 15:19:44 GMT -5
I suppose the concept of humanity is created equal is true in one sense, we are all equal to human beings and not "animals" well not lower species of animals. However some are born more equal than others; the rich are more equal than the Poor, the able bodied are more equal than the disabled for obvious reasons etc,etc. Even the concept of equality of opportunities has its limits and drawbacks. Some folks can be as intelligent or more intelligent than some others but the equalty of access to certain avenues in life is very difficult for them to penetrate and access. Laws, rules and regulations can and do help, but they are always ways devised and found by those who seek to preserve their privileged status to get around laws. Well that is the way I see it anyway, but equal opportunities do exist in employment, professions and education and many do benefit from it.
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 13, 2015 18:55:25 GMT -5
Dennis, your post struck a chord with words I read a day or two ago, in Karl Barth's The Epistle to The Romans, reflecting on this passage: All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.
"Here is exposed the cause of the dissolution of every distinction. The remarkable union is attested by a remarkable separation. There is no positive possession of men which is sufficient to provide a foundation for human solidarity; for every positive possession--religious temperament, moral consciousness, humanitarianism--already contains within itself the seed of the disruption of society. These positive factors are productive of difference, since they distinguish men from one another. Genuine fellowship is grounded upon a negative: it is grounded upon what men lack. Precisely when we recognize that we are sinners do we perceive that we are brothers. Our solidarity with other men is alone adequately grounded, when with others--or apart from them, since we may not wait for them!--we stretch out beyond everything that we are and have, and behold the wholly problematical character of our present condition. Men fall short of the glory of God."
I realize that the valid objection could be raised that "the powers that be use this kind of thinking to keep humanity oppressed." That does obviously occur repeatedly throughout human history, but I do not see the misuse of God's word, by those who obviously do not practice it themselves, as invalidating the truth it brings.
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Feb 13, 2015 19:49:31 GMT -5
What a challenging question you pose, Dennis! I love it!
For the sake of argument, allow me to propose that there is one concept for which all humanity has been created equal . . . . . the capacity to aspire.
The capacity to aspire appears to me to be truly unique. It can’t really be seen, touched, heard, tasted or smelled so it is beyond measurement. Rather, “to aspire” means to me the capacity to seek meaning.
Coupled with the capacity of human beings for “pure reason”, homo sapiens seem to be differentiated from other species and to share a common equality not presently known among any other species.
Sometimes, during my flights of fancy, I think about my personal aspiration to find significance and meaning in my life. And I think about how closely the word “aspire” is linked to the phenomena of “breath”. And I think of how “breath” has always been associated with the idea of “spirit”. And I wonder . . . . . . .
I submit for your consideration the possibility that in our capacity to aspire, humanity may, in fact, all be created equal?
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Feb 13, 2015 20:24:46 GMT -5
Dennis, your post struck a chord with words I read a day or two ago, in Karl Barth's The Epistle to The Romans, reflecting on this passage: All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."Here is exposed the cause of the dissolution of every distinction. The remarkable union is attested by a remarkable separation. There is no positive possession of men which is sufficient to provide a foundation for human solidarity; for every positive possession--religious temperament, moral consciousness, humanitarianism--already contains within itself the seed of the disruption of society. These positive factors are productive of difference, since they distinguish men from one another. Genuine fellowship is grounded upon a negative: it is grounded upon what men lack. Precisely when we recognize that we are sinners do we perceive that we are brothers. Our solidarity with other men is alone adequately grounded, when with others--or apart from them, since we may not wait for them!--we stretch out beyond everything that we are and have, and behold the wholly problematical character of our present condition. Men fall short of the glory of God." I realize that the valid objection could be raised that "the powers that be use this kind of thinking to keep humanity oppressed." That does obviously occur repeatedly throughout human history, but I do not see the misuse of God's word, by those who obviously do not practice it themselves, as invalidating the truth it brings. Good evening Alan. A great reflection. I have been toying with the provocative passage: All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.I wonder if the passage could be viewed from a different perspective, from an "areligious" perspective and still sustain the many interesting ideas articulated by Karl Barth. What would happen if one were to reflect on a comment like the following; "All things must change, and fail to remain eternally." This version de-emphasizes the inevitable angst caused by "sin" and "God" but does it capture a comparable underlying truth? Indeed, all humanity is created equal for it shall pass. "Precisely when we perceive our own mortality do we perceive that we are all brothers and sisters" (edited). Interesting.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 13, 2015 21:49:17 GMT -5
Yknot I see 'falling short of the glory of god'as this. When mercy is powerfully evident. The presence and glory of god is there. Its tangible.
We fail to excersize as humans charitable acts regularly enough. When mercy, compassion, kindness are lost and selfishness, pride of place, thinking higher of ourselves than we aught, greed, mockery, scoffing etc. The glory of god disappears. We loose our humanity.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 13, 2015 21:51:18 GMT -5
Being born of high or low breeding isnt the issue. I know that you can take a child from low socio economic family and place him in the 'schools of the toffs' (british public school) and he can have equal opportunity to excel. I dont think we are born equal for the many reasons already stated. I too have asked myself the question why do I live in a privelged country and why do some live in the squalour of Jakata or Calcutta. Imagine if every person took another human being and saved them from poverty. How much better off would humanity be. Or if selfishness with money was against the law? Im sure if all churches practiced what they preach and actually gave and shared all that came in there would be a huge difference in the percentage of poverty and equality in communities. People generally care about others especially the poor.For all my critical comments I do realise that it begins with me.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Feb 13, 2015 22:14:43 GMT -5
Yknot I see 'falling short of the glory of god'as this. When mercy is powerfully evident. The presence and glory of god is there. Its tangible.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 13, 2015 23:47:17 GMT -5
Yknot I see 'falling short of the glory of god'as this. When mercy is powerfully evident. The presence and glory of god is there. Its tangible. Yes the glory of god is tangible. You can feel it. But coupled with that is evidence in others. Oops Bob It begins with your relationship in your closet. There are many ways to feel it. Sometimes a cool soft wind when there is no 'wind' sometimes electricity running along finger tips..but what im referring to when charity meets poverty and people are touched then they may weep with wonder and appreciation but the lightness in the atmosphere is felt by all. People generally dont think there is a god who cares. When their needs are met they turn to him because of his goodness. Goodness is regarded as righteousness. Sometimes healing takes place in their emotions. They have been crying out. In a destitute state. Thinking he isnt listening hoping he is. When this phenomina happens they recognise his hand. Are so grateful to him. They change. The heaviness that was over them lifts. Hope is grasped. Trust returns. Faith is discovered.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 13, 2015 23:53:35 GMT -5
Dennis Sorry if it looks like inhijacked thread. When this happens we become equal in one sense through the sharing. Oneness.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Feb 14, 2015 0:22:55 GMT -5
Oops Bob It begins with your relationship in your closet. But I told my wife we didn't have to stay in the closet. That would be tangible if it moved a feather. Would it move a feather? Is it electricity, or a feeling of electricity. You know that if you can't measure it, it's not tangible. charity is an abstract concept, not a tangible thing. People being touched in that manner is not tangible, unless the glory of god is people. The way you use "touched" here doesn't make anything tangible. The lightness of the atmosphere is not tangible, it is the personal description of one's mood. What does that have to do with the glory of God. Who knows. [/quote] What is tangible about this? I'm not making fun of you -- I think you're speaking in metaphors, and I'm interested in tangibles.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 14, 2015 0:29:29 GMT -5
Feb 13, 2015 22:47:17 GMT -6 bubbles said:
"Yes the glory of god is tangible. You can feel it. But coupled with that is evidence in others. It begins with your relationship in your closet. There are many ways to feel it. Sometimes a cool soft wind when there is no 'wind' sometimes electricity running along finger tips..but what im referring to when charity meets poverty and people are touched then they may weep with wonder and appreciation but the lightness in the atmosphere is felt by all. People generally dont think there is a god who cares. When their needs are met they turn to him because of his goodness. Goodness is regarded as righteousness. Sometimes healing takes place in their emotions. They have been crying out. In a destitute state. Thinking he isnt listening hoping he is. When this phenomina happens they recognise his hand. Are so grateful to him. They change. The heaviness that was over them lifts. Hope is grasped. Trust returns. Faith is discovered.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 0:53:51 GMT -5
I don't know why this word "equality" is considered so noble. There's no equality in nature, no equality in human societies and no equality in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Disposing of the notion of equality led over half a billion people being lifted out of poverty in China. That some did better than others made all the difference. If Deng Xiaping hadn't introduced this policy after Mao then we can be sure there would be tin rattlers (even church tin rattlers) asking money to help the poor Chinese, as they still do for poor Africans.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 14, 2015 1:15:15 GMT -5
I don't know why this word "equality" is considered so noble. There's no equality in nature, no equality in human societies and no equality in the Kingdom of Heaven. Disposing of the notion of equality led over half a billion people being lifted out of poverty in China. That some did better than others made all the difference. If Deng Xiaping hadn't introduced this policy after Mao then we can be sure there would be tin rattlers (even church tin rattlers) asking money to help the poor Chinese, as they still do for poor Africans. How do you figure that Bert?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 1:32:26 GMT -5
This stuff is readily available on the internet. It isn't contested.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 14, 2015 1:52:25 GMT -5
Bob Reality is not metaphoric. Im trying to describe tangible using all of our senses. Glory of god being something we cant see. Goodness has a lot to do with the glory. On the flip side evil doesnt.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 2:48:59 GMT -5
You folks have largely responded exactly as I had wished for in posting this thread, thank you. I am glad to know I am not alone in my thoughts and musings on this topic.
Having expressed this, my musings go even much deeper, into origins of many of these inequalities. In animal husbandry and the genetic lessons I have learned there, replica fading may be a remote cause, however we often seek to interbreed for purity of desired traits. If an animal appears near perfect, whole complete to a given standard, that is what we chose to continue to propagate. One of the laws of entropy seems to come into play here. Disorder only increases.
So where do the unequal properties in human reproduction originate? No, I do not intend to lead anyone anywhere. It is merely an attempt to bring others thoughts into play for my and all who read here to consider. If I find my thoughts are not expressed by anyone else, then I will contribute them later into this thread for consideration. Thanks again, and please carry on?!
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 14, 2015 3:05:08 GMT -5
This stuff is readily available on the internet. It isn't contested. Then tell us where it can be found if it is so readily found & available.
You seem to do this quite a lot.
Stating something as if it were a fact and then giving NO reference as where it can be found.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 14, 2015 3:15:48 GMT -5
Bob Reality is not metaphoric. Im trying to describe tangible using all of our senses. Glory of god being something we cant see. Goodness has a lot to do with the glory. On the flip side evil doesnt. Right, -Reality isn't metaphoric.
So, why are you using metaphors then?
Whose "goodness"has anything to do with "glory"- what ever "glory " means
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 5:00:25 GMT -5
Feb 13, 2015 22:47:17 GMT -6 bubbles said:"Yes the glory of god is tangible. You can feel it. But coupled with that is evidence in others. It begins with your relationship in your closet. There are many ways to feel it. Sometimes a cool soft wind when there is no 'wind' sometimes electricity running along finger tips..but what im referring to when charity meets poverty and people are touched then they may weep with wonder and appreciation but the lightness in the atmosphere is felt by all. People generally dont think there is a god who cares. When their needs are met they turn to him because of his goodness. Goodness is regarded as righteousness. Sometimes healing takes place in their emotions. They have been crying out. In a destitute state. Thinking he isnt listening hoping he is. When this phenomina happens they recognise his hand. Are so grateful to him. They change. The heaviness that was over them lifts. Hope is grasped. Trust returns. Faith is discovered. Ah yes, but English is a dynamic language, words can take on different meanings over time.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Feb 14, 2015 5:37:19 GMT -5
This stuff is readily available on the internet. It isn't contested. Then tell us where it can be found if it is so readily found & available.
You seem to do this quite a lot.
Stating something as if it were a fact and then giving NO reference as where it can be found.Here's a start:
|
|
|
Post by xna on Feb 14, 2015 9:13:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Feb 14, 2015 9:42:53 GMT -5
Steven Pinker's books are illuminating relative to the nature/nurture debate.
I suspect the list of inequalities is endless. The challenge is to reflect on the few common threads that might attest to any essential equality that be speaks our humanity.
|
|
|
Post by Alan Vandermyden on Feb 14, 2015 15:37:34 GMT -5
Dennis, ideas of somehow making life "equal" or "fair" seem to be fairly recent, arising perhaps from both "enlightenment" and Marxist ideologies (though obviously with different means of supposedly achieving "equality"!). "Justice" for us now relates to these ideas - or sometimes to revenge - but I have read through theological readings (and I would have to search to remember which specific authors and books now) that "justice" formerly meant "putting things in order." Biblically, this had to do with what people were worshiping, and the warnings against idolatry nearly always figured into this - idols that related to power, through money, military, politics, etc.
I often refer to the time when a man asked Jesus to "speak to my brother to divide the inheritance with him," and Jesus did not go at all into legalities, "fairness," or related ideas. He went directly to an admonition to "beware of covetousness." This is significant to me, as I was involved for a year or so with a very "liberal" Christian church, where I began to wonder, "Well what is the message of the gospel in all this if we are only repeating what I hear at the university up the street" (I was a student at the time). The message of this "liberal" church was primarily awareness of social issues and activism to change them. That has its place, but I didn't see how it brought anything different - gospel - to the world.
I am in no way criticizing what I was learning at college. I had completed a BA in Ethnic Studies at the time, and was then working on an MA in Pacific Islands Studies. I am well aware of the history of colonization and Christianity's role in it. I still carry that awareness and a concern for "oppression" in its various forms. And yet, I could not put my heart into the "activist" role, at least coming from a church setting. That is when I began my voracious theological reading - about three years ago now - that has led me to a very changed view on what "justice" is all about, and the vital necessity of putting things in order in my own life first - or rather, responding to the confrontation by God demanding that I put things in order.
I'm probably rambling a bit here, but for me this all relates to my refusal now to be drawn into discussions of "they did this and they said that." It is endless! Are "fairness" and "equality" any more than current, modern ideals that lead to a dead-end?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 14, 2015 15:55:09 GMT -5
Then tell us where it can be found if it is so readily found & available.
You seem to do this quite a lot.
Stating something as if it were a fact and then giving NO reference as where it can be found. Here's a start: OK.
But how does this fit with what Bert said: "Disposing of the notion of equality led over half a billion people being lifted out of poverty in China. That some did better than others made all the difference If Deng Xiaping hadn't introduced this policy after Mao then we can be sure there would be tin rattlers (even church tin rattlers) asking money to help the poor Chinese, as they still do for poor Africans."
Why that comparison between the two, China & Africa? And what has it to do with "equality?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 4:33:18 GMT -5
Three articles on my favorite site help nextbigfuture.com/2015/01/the-violent-history-of-property.htmlWealth distribution by force - China style. This impoverished the entire nation. and nextbigfuture.com/2015/01/wealth-distribution-for-dummies-3-poor.htmlThe rich got richer, the poor became better off. and nextbigfuture.com/2015/01/yes-80-billionaires-have-wealth-of.htmlHow Oxfam continue to get it wrong. Oxfam has the wrong message Bill Gates correctly points out : Almost all countries will be what are now called lower-middle income or richer by 2035, Gates said in the letter. They will learn from their most productive neighbors and benefit from innovations such as new vaccines, better seeds and the digital revolution, he said. “The belief that the world is getting worse, that we can’t solve extreme poverty and disease, isn’t just mistaken. It is harmful,” Gates wrote. “By almost any measure, the world is better than it has ever been. In two decades it will be better still.” Nextbigfuture has noted that extreme poverty could be eliminated by 2025. The World Bank has made this an objective as well. Oxfam has generally not been promoting the solutions that will actually work to lift people out of poverty.
Somwhere around 2060 Europe will account for about 5% of the world's GDP, and once poor China will account for 40%. China has four trillion in reserves to provide low interest loans to developing countries for the development of infrastructure - including 40,000 miles of high speed rail. That's what good economic development can do to a country. Compare that to Mao's equality driven society. As for Africa? Who knows - it could sustain on Western welfare for the next thousand years.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 15, 2015 16:40:59 GMT -5
Unequal properties in human reproduction originate? Sounds bit deep for me.At conception? I read of a child born with twins or remains of twins in her uterus?
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Feb 15, 2015 17:01:05 GMT -5
I believe we all have the same opportunities (limited by the society we live in), but many make unwise choices like the man below. They did start off unequal but 2 chose wisely the other did not. In fact the one with 2 talents ended up with the greatest reward which was the same as the one who started with 5. Of course, investments can be risky and of course what they say is hind sight is a good thing.
Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 and I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
|
|