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Post by snow on Feb 6, 2015 11:49:31 GMT -5
I'm curious. Is there some reason why it's wrong to question God? Especially when what he is said to be and then said to have done don't make any sense whatsoever? That is exactly why I don't believe in the Christian version of God. The whole concept makes no sense. It is such a tangle of contradictions that make no sense. Then when you add on the things this being of 'love' does in the OT, it just gets more messed up. So then we hear 'well we can't know the mind of God'. But in order to do the horrific things this God does in the OT, you would need to be a psychopath to understand the mind of God. It wouldn't be a good thing to comprehend how anyone, god or human, could do the things he supposedly did. Then when you hear about how high up Satan was you have to question that story also. If God is all loving and heaven is a wonderful place of eternal bliss, and God is all powerful, why would any angel in it's right mind think it could take on this being and win? Also why would they want to if heaven is what people think it is? I have to admit that I'm not comfortable questioning God's motives. I don't mind saying I don't understand his motives, or occasionally asking questions of the "Why me, Lord"? variety. I also don't have much trouble questioning the way in which other people understand God. There are also many aspect of Christian interpretation of God and man's relationship with God that I don't accept. I do think of God as Love, but on many issues I don't have an answer - most notably on why mankind has to suffer. I think that the necessity of 'free will' is at least a partial answer. I hope I'll see that one more clearly when I wake up in the Matrix, whoops, I mean the after-life. Thanks for your answer. Am I on the right track if I say that you are not comfortable questioning God because you fear what he will do to you if you question him? If God is all knowing and God is love then it should be perfectly safe questioning him and he should understand how any human would need to question him. The Matrix? You do have a different concept of Christianity than most don't you.
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Post by snow on Feb 6, 2015 11:53:21 GMT -5
Then when you hear about how high up Satan was you have to question that story also. If God is all loving and heaven is a wonderful place of eternal bliss, and God is all powerful, why would any angel in it's right mind think it could take on this being and win? Also why would they want to if heaven is what people think it is? In heaven Lucifer and all of the angels were only servants... Satan couldn't be king and god in heaven... The Only place Lucifer and 1/3 of fallen angels can be worshipped as gods (religions) and kings/princess, rulers in politics is on earth with the humans.That doesn't answer the question about heaven though. Or God's greatness and love for that matter. Satan doesn't sound like a stupid individual. So what would be so bad about being a servant in paradise that he would take on a being he couldn't beat, and he would have to know he couldn't beat. And those other angels he decided to get to rebel and followed him, you really have to ask yourself what was so terrible about heaven? I just don't accept that Satan didn't like not being King/God of heaven. Even if he didn't, he had to know that wasn't something he couldn't be no matter how much he rebelled. You can't win against an all knowing, all powerful being. The story has enough holes in it large enough to drive a truck through.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 6, 2015 14:18:50 GMT -5
I have to admit that I'm not comfortable questioning God's motives. I don't mind saying I don't understand his motives, or occasionally asking questions of the "Why me, Lord"? variety. I also don't have much trouble questioning the way in which other people understand God. There are also many aspect of Christian interpretation of God and man's relationship with God that I don't accept. I do think of God as Love, but on many issues I don't have an answer - most notably on why mankind has to suffer. I think that the necessity of 'free will' is at least a partial answer. I hope I'll see that one more clearly when I wake up in the Matrix, whoops, I mean the after-life. Thanks for your answer. Am I on the right track if I say that you are not comfortable questioning God because you fear what he will do to you if you question him? If God is all knowing and God is love then it should be perfectly safe questioning him and he should understand how any human would need to question him. The Matrix? You do have a different concept of Christianity than most don't you. Just recently saw the movie again. It's really a "B" movie now that the effects have moved down the ladder from "amazing" to "so 90s". Actually a fun movie. I also bought parts 2 and 3 (on sale) although most people say they're awful. My daughter's partner said he liked them quite a lot, so I think I will too. No, it's not a fear thing. It's more reverence and trust. You do assume, a priori, that God knows what He is doing, and so I reject some of the OT understanding of God's Will. And other things I just don't have an answer for, such as, why do we suffer? I think that one will be clear at some point. The after-life might be like waking from a dream; it might add another level to our reality so that many things that have happened in lifetime won't really matter in the same way. The Bible does say all tears will be wiped away and there will be no more sorrows.
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Post by snow on Feb 6, 2015 15:16:28 GMT -5
Thanks for your answer. Am I on the right track if I say that you are not comfortable questioning God because you fear what he will do to you if you question him? If God is all knowing and God is love then it should be perfectly safe questioning him and he should understand how any human would need to question him. The Matrix? You do have a different concept of Christianity than most don't you. Just recently saw the movie again. It's really a "B" movie now that the effects have moved down the ladder from "amazing" to "so 90s". Actually a fun movie. I also bought parts 2 and 3 (on sale) although most people say they're awful. My daughter's partner said he liked them quite a lot, so I think I will too. No, it's not a fear thing. It's more reverence and trust. You do assume, a priori, that God knows what He is doing, and so I reject some of the OT understanding of God's Will. And other things I just don't have an answer for, such as, why do we suffer? I think that one will be clear at some point. The after-life might be like waking from a dream; it might add another level to our reality so that many things that have happened in lifetime won't really matter in the same way. The Bible does say all tears will be wiped away and there will be no more sorrows. Never saw the Matrix. Maybe I should watch it. I have trouble hearing so I limit my videos because many are an exercise in futility. ah well. There is a New Age line of thought that says we are co-creators with Source/God and we are all connected to this source and therefore all one entity experiencing individual existences. This is to allow source the experience instead of just the thought/concept which is what source does. Source apparently holds the whole 'web' together and the individual divine sparks of source experience everything that can be imagined or thought of so that Source can experience itself. That is an interesting concept because it makes Source and all the divine entities that are a part of source codependent upon each other. As an individual we have access to all the information and knowledge, but not the power to do a lot with it, and Source has the power, but not the ability to experience things. It is limited to the concept for example. So it's kind of a nice idea that Source and those of us in the physical or non physical realms coexist and are helpful to each other. They say the concept also makes people nicer to each other because in a sense if you hurt or harm another you are harming yourself ultimately because you are part of the whole and therefore connected. Each individual experiences something different in order for the whole to have access to what that is like. It also means they would believe we reincarnate into lives of our choosing in order to experience yet another aspect of a concept. Because we cannot die and our lives are like a blink of an eye in eternity experiences that humans would call downright horrific are nothing once you die physically and reenter the spiritual realm. It's interesting that you made the comment 'the after-life might be like waking from a dream' because it is exactly how it is defined by this group concept if you are unaware of your true self. The enlightenment or even nirvana is someone who is in a physical body and knows what they really are and what they are here to experience. That makes them far more accepting of their experiences even when they are hard. Some would say the Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus were examples of an enlightened person that knew how to do things in the physical realm that couldn't be done by those who were not aware of who they were. So that philosophy removes the need to judge others and allows others to love unconditionally. I find it interesting that they do allow for restraint or punishment of those who are harming others in this physical existence, and just view it as being part of the experience. So it's not allowing people to get away with murder or other types of harm, but it's not got the negative stigma attached to it either. It's still 'wrong' to commit horrific acts and punishment is the answer by removing these people from society, but there isn't the judgment and hatred towards that person to the same degree there is in our normal way of viewing things. And, it's also considered a part of the experience to forget what we really are so we can experience the hatred we might feel towards someone who murdered someone we love. It would just depend on what we came here to experience. Which would explain how people can view the same event or action so differently possibly. I found this line of thought or philosophy to be interesting when I was doing my research into all the different religions and new age thought. You triggered my remembering this philosophy with your 'waking up from a dream' comment.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 6, 2015 15:29:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your answer. Am I on the right track if I say that you are not comfortable questioning God because you fear what he will do to you if you question him? If God is all knowing and God is love then it should be perfectly safe questioning him and he should understand how any human would need to question him. The Matrix? You do have a different concept of Christianity than most don't you. No, it's not a fear thing. It's more reverence and trust. You do assume, a priori, that God knows what He is doing, and so I reject some of the OT understanding of God's Will. And other things I just don't have an answer for, such as, why do we suffer? I think that one will be clear at some point. The after-life might be like waking from a dream; it might add another level to our reality so that many things that have happened in lifetime won't really matter in the same way. The Bible does say all tears will be wiped away and there will be no more sorrows. /quote] I understand how you feel.
I want through a lot of the same kind of questioning.
I found that part of the trouble I was having was the same problem as you, of assuming certain things about God, a priori --knowledge or justification is independent of experience.
"That God knows what He is doing" was one of them.
"God as Love" was another.
When I begin to question why I considered those to be true, why had believed them true just because I had heard them as true throughout my whole life, - that was the big first eye opener!
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 6, 2015 15:43:56 GMT -5
In heaven Lucifer and all of the angels were only servants... Satan couldn't be king and god in heaven... The Only place Lucifer and 1/3 of fallen angels can be worshipped as gods (religions) and kings/princess, rulers in politics is on earth with the humans. That doesn't answer the question about heaven though. Or God's greatness and love for that matter. Satan doesn't sound like a stupid individual. So what would be so bad about being a servant in paradise that he would take on a being he couldn't beat, and he would have to know he couldn't beat. And those other angels he decided to get to rebel and followed him, you really have to ask yourself what was so terrible about heaven? I just don't accept that Satan didn't like not being King/God of heaven. Even if he didn't, he had to know that wasn't something he couldn't be no matter how much he rebelled. You can't win against an all knowing, all powerful being. The story has enough holes in it large enough to drive a truck through. It seems that Nathan doesn't think those things through.
He just recites reams of ideas of other people ad infinitum .
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Post by rational on Feb 7, 2015 10:14:18 GMT -5
That doesn't answer the question about heaven though. Or God's greatness and love for that matter. Satan doesn't sound like a stupid individual. So what would be so bad about being a servant in paradise that he would take on a being he couldn't beat, and he would have to know he couldn't beat. And those other angels he decided to get to rebel and followed him, you really have to ask yourself what was so terrible about heaven? I just don't accept that Satan didn't like not being King/God of heaven. Even if he didn't, he had to know that wasn't something he couldn't be no matter how much he rebelled. You can't win against an all knowing, all powerful being. The story has enough holes in it large enough to drive a truck through. Yes, Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels are NOT so smart beings. Just like many of the humans today! God offers eternal life to those who believe, and accept His Son as the Savior but people don't believe or want it. Many people today rather go to hell and be with God in Paradise. Humans can't be neutral in this life. You must make a choice, Living in Paradise with God or NOT. Why? don't people want to live in Paradise? today! NathanB, Your argument fails because, according to the bible, Satan et al. were in heaven and knew what was available. We mere mortals have only been given the most rudimentary information and really have to take unknown people's word that there is something there at all. Satan and the guys knew what they had, knew they would lose in the end, yet still chose to leave. What was so bad about heaven that hell was seen as a better alternative? Do you have a good description of heaven? You say "Live in paradise". That is a meaningless phrase. Can you think of anything/place that would be paradise after a billion years? Besides being in an uncomfortable place with things made of precious metals and items (pearl?) what does heaven have to offer? Hanging out with an entity that will punish you eternally if you don't like him/her? Spending eternity worshiping a being that condones the abuse of children? No wonder they all bolted.
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Post by bubbles on Feb 8, 2015 19:00:09 GMT -5
Rational Lucifer was 'cast out of heaven.'He didnt leave of his own volition. There is a difference!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 20:58:31 GMT -5
My best guess is that it's the 82 people who have most of the world's money. Naturally, isn't that the golden rule of this world, "those with the most gold, rule!?"
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2015 10:08:22 GMT -5
I didn't see street paving as mentioned in the bible.
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2015 10:17:18 GMT -5
~~ The current paradise is an awesome place... Paul wrote in II Cor. 12:1-4 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. And all of this says nothing. If I was trying to sell you a vacation and the only information I could give you was "The current vacation place is an awesome place." would you buy the package? Would saying it was "inexpressible" and that people who know about the place are not permitted to tell make it sound better to you?. Hmmm - 1/ 3 left and 3/ 4 remained. Sounds like there are some agents that are members of each side! Need to check your math!
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2015 12:18:41 GMT -5
And all of this says nothing. If I was trying to sell you a vacation and the only information I could give you was "The current vacation place is an awesome place." would you buy the package? Would saying it was "inexpressible" and that people who know about the place are not permitted to tell make it sound better to you?. Hmmm - 1/ 3 left and 3/ 4 remained. Sounds like there are some agents that are members of each side! Need to check your math! Let me clarify.... for an example... 100,000 angels in heaven. 30,000 left and 70,000 stayed.I see what you wrote but 3/ 4 is 75,000. And 30,000 and 75,000 is 105,000 angels. Some of them would have had to be double agents! About 5,000 in your example. Now, this does not seem possible. A 'good' angel could not lie and pretend to be a 'bad' angel. And an all knowing god would know if a 'bad' angel was pretending to be a 'good' angel. Maybe those 5,000 'extra' angels are the ones currently found in the hollow earth cavorting with the reptilians. It is a tough job to keep track of all the mystical beings in your world, NathanB!
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2015 13:28:04 GMT -5
Under the auspices of a Defense Intelligence Agency program referred to as Operation Crystal Knight, or what is now being called “Project Serpo,” it has been claimed that twelve astronauts left the earth in July of 1965, and were taken to the planet Serpo in the constellation Zeta Reticuli aboard an alien spaceship, as part of an exchange program. The bulk of the information about this program is said to have been dribbled out to the world via 21 e-mails from an individual referred to only as “Anonymous” to a closed circle of high-level UFO insiders beginning on November 2, 2005. www.serpo.org/article6.phpYeah - That has the ring of truth to it!
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2015 14:50:52 GMT -5
I didn't see street paving as mentioned in the bible. That is the New heaven and New earth/Jerusalem city.... Street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. Rev. 21:9-21. One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
If you want to know what the current heaven is like read the book of Revelation where God translated him to heaven where He showed John the future events. John talked he saw people, beings, angels in the current heaven.
I find it interesting they don't mention diamonds. Is it possible they didn't know about diamonds yet so it wasn't in their vocabulary when they gave this very human description of heaven? And agate, why would that even make the precious stone category? While they can be pretty, they really aren't considered a precious stone.
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2015 15:17:47 GMT -5
Nathan, just so you know for the future, whoever you copied your fractions from had a problem with fractions. It would be 1/3 left and 2/3 stayed or 1/4 left and 3/4 stayed. 1/3 + 2/3 = 3/3 = 1 or 1/4 + 3/4 = 4/4 = 1
1/3 + 3/4 = 13/12 or 1 1/12
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2015 15:30:16 GMT -5
I find it interesting they don't mention diamonds. Is it possible they didn't know about diamonds yet so it wasn't in their vocabulary when they gave this very human description of heaven? And agate, why would that even make the precious stone category? While they can be pretty, they really aren't considered a precious stone. ~~ Today, we use the word diamond... back then they call it as Crystal, precious stones...
That is the New heaven and New earth/Jerusalem city.... Street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. Rev. 21:9-21. One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Follow the links below to the different diamond crystal galleries filled with natural crystals of genuine diamond sold by the New York mineral dealer, John Betts-Fine Minerals. www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com/jhbnyc/diamonds.htmok but diamonds were around a few thousand years before the bible was written. The term crystal is also given to other rocks for eg. quartz crystals.
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2015 15:30:55 GMT -5
Nathan, just so you know for the future, whoever you copied your fractions from had a problem with fractions. It would be 1/3 left and 2/3 stayed or 1/4 left and 3/4 stayed. 1/3 + 2/3 = 3/3 = 1 or 1/4 + 3/4 = 4/4 = 1 1/3 + 3/4 = 13/12 or 1 1/12 Thanks, to reduce the confusion, next time I will write a third of the fallen angels left and the rest stayed.That works! as long as you just say 1/3 of the 'angels' left and the rest stayed. I would presume the other 2/3 angels were never fallen, right?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 16:21:43 GMT -5
I didn't see street paving as mentioned in the bible. Rev_21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2015 17:57:13 GMT -5
Yeah - That has the ring of truth to it! Bill Ryan the owner of the Serpo site and Kerry Cassidy CEO of the Camelot site met and talked to the ex-DIA "Anonymous" person at his home. They KNOW who this "Anonymous" person is.I am sure they do. I mean, if I do I an sure they do as well. Richard C. Doty, a former security guard with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. It should come as no surprise that he had a book to sell. As far as the accuracy of the information on the serpo site - You know I don't generally read or listen to the sites you mention. But to be fair I did look at the serpo site and selected a couple at random. I read until I came to the following: "Once the underground facility was ready, we moved in. This was sometime in early 1960. The facility was one of the biggest underground facilities ever built." It went on to say it was over a billion square feet. Wow. That would be about 189,394 square miles. The state of Nevada is 110,622 square miles. So your source claims there is an underground facility that was dug out that is larger than the state of Nevada? Where did they put the material that was removed? Think about it NathanB. If it was only an area with a 15 foot ceiling it means that the material removed would have covered Nevada with more than 15 feet of dirt. The volume of the great pyramid is 92,017,296 cubic feet. Making the claimed facility (10 foot ceiling) would have removed 15,000,000,000 cubit feet. That would be over 150 pyramids. And a 400 mile square 15 foot high room would be difficult to ventilate. Do you see a lot of ventilation units to service the area? A power supply to power it? Use your head NathanB.
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2015 18:02:25 GMT -5
ok but diamonds were around a few thousand years before the bible was written. The term crystal is also given to other rocks for eg. quartz crystals. Amethyst Beryl Carbuncle Carnelian Chalcedony Chodchod Chrysolite Chrysophrasus Coral Crystal Diamond Emerald Jacinth Jasper Ligurus Onyx Sardonyx Pearl Ruby Sapphire Sardonyx Topaz
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2015 18:09:26 GMT -5
ok but diamonds were around a few thousand years before the bible was written. The term crystal is also given to other rocks for eg. quartz crystals. Amethyst Beryl Carbuncle Carnelian Chalcedony Chodchod Chrysolite Chrysophrasus Coral Crystal Diamond Emerald Jacinth Jasper Ligurus Onyx Sardonyx Pearl Ruby Sapphire Sardonyx Topaz There you go. I am rather surprised that Pearl is considered a crystal and Coral for that matter
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Post by rational on Feb 9, 2015 18:38:16 GMT -5
There you go. I am rather surprised that Pearl is considered a crystal and Coral for that matter "Gems" was the search term.
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2015 18:42:32 GMT -5
There you go. I am rather surprised that Pearl is considered a crystal and Coral for that matter "Gems" was the search term. I see. I wonder if it's true that diamonds were called crystals when Revelations was written? I've tried to google it, but not coming up with anything that says diamonds were ever referred to anything but diamonds. Not going to waste my time on it as it doesn't much matter. Not to me anyway.
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Post by snow on Feb 20, 2015 14:08:57 GMT -5
Nathan, I have a question. You told me that the reason God called for the complete annihilation of the tribes Israel were fighting was because they were the reptilian races and fallen angels. Is that correct? Like the instructions below would be for those fallen angel and reptilian races? Deuteronomy 20:10-18New International Version (NIV)
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
Footnotes:
Deuteronomy 20:17 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the Lord, often by totally destroying them.
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Post by snow on Feb 20, 2015 17:48:55 GMT -5
Well then I have another question. If these people were 'undesirables' that god wanted to get rid of, how come they were allowed to keep the women and breed with them? Wouldn't that further the race God was trying to destroy?
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Post by rational on Feb 20, 2015 19:10:22 GMT -5
~~ 2013/ Awesome Evidences are found around the world of .... 200 fallen angels had sexual intercourse with women of this earth so their Children become Rulers/Kings elite race through the centuries... The Giants over 10 feet tall, Elongated Hybrids Pharaoh of Egypt, Elongated Skulls in Mayans, Peru, Siberia Russia, Iran, Germany, Bolivia, Mexico, and other cultures. The Nephilim around the world... The Nephilim around the world At time (35:00) Noah's Flood fossils found on MT. Everett, whale skeletons found in Egypt desert, and South America. OVER 2.7 Millions Viewers! I get the idea that you think popular equals fact. Think about this - 133 million views for New PlayDoh Sparkle Princess Ariel. There is no accounting for taste. 2.7 million viewers is not a lot if you consider that David Hannum was probably accurate.
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Post by snow on Feb 20, 2015 19:18:44 GMT -5
I guess my concern with breeding with these women is that they would carry the reptilian gene pool that God was trying to weed out. So changing who they decided to worship wouldn't address that particular issue. The Hebrews, if they allowed them into their midst and had children with them, would then contaminate their gene pool. God would surely know this, wouldn't he?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 20, 2015 23:05:52 GMT -5
Nathan, is there any connection between these reptillians etc and basketballers. Just asking in case I need to be a bit more careful when attending a game.
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