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Post by terfly4fun on Jan 26, 2015 20:51:34 GMT -5
Mark Twain said fiction is obliged to stick with possibilities; truth is not. “‘Tis strange – but true; for truth is always strange; Stranger than fiction.” British poet Lord Byron (George Gordon Byron) In his epic poem Don Juan (1819-1824) Origin of the saying “Truth is stranger than fiction.” I notice that frequently, and I really want to say ALL THE TIME; but, am reluctant to allow myself to go to that extent, I notice that people who disbute, question, and try to down play factual points in posts on TRUTH MEETINGS BOARD always come up with other "possibilities" in their rationalizations; but, the truth still remains ... truth is strange and perhaps stranger than fiction.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 0:16:45 GMT -5
Give us an example, Terfly4fun.
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Post by terfly4fun on Jan 27, 2015 12:24:27 GMT -5
You can read through many many posts on here even some of mine and someone states some thing happened or some event took place or whatever .... then come the "... possibilities ..." like maybe it didn't happen at all, or maybe it happened this way or that way ... or maybe what was ment was this or that ... but with truth there are no other possibilities. So, Bert I just find this interesting, because the Bible does tell us to test the waters ... to sort it all out ... to find the truth and know what's true and what isn't.
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Post by terfly4fun on Jan 30, 2015 11:43:23 GMT -5
I once asked an elder in the 2x2 system if he thought this group of people were the only ones who are right. He quickly responded " ... oh, no doubt about it ... this "way" goes clear back to the Apostles ..." " ... you see, he said, the workers of today are 'God's ambassadors,' and the friends and workers go clear back to the days of the disciples and so on ... Okay, my comment about " ... TRUTH BEING STRANGER THAN FICTION ..." concerns the fact that these well-intentioned people, many of them with very good spirits, believe the "truth" they worship in, and the "way" they live, is, in fact, THE only way to be saved and the only way to ever know the true and living God. It's my understanding George Walker studied to be a Presbyterian minister. If George Walker was " ... the chosen one ..." and " " THE TRUTH" was the ONLY way ... why did he study to be a Presbyterian minister? Why was George Walker ever a Presbyterian? That's like someone in " THE TRUTH" saying in essence " ... this truth is the ONLY way, and all other religions are " ... of the world .." " .. worldly .." " ... of the devil ..." " ... however, George Walker came from a Satanic religion called PRESBYTERIAN, and GEORGE WALKER STARTED THE TRUTH ..." In other words George Walker was Satanic as far as his religious background and training; but, at the same time he is one of " ... God's disciples ...!" Has anyone heard the old saying " a friend of my enemy is not my friend?" George's ONLY WAY Does NOT make sense. As the quotation says " ... TRUTH has no other possibilities ..." that's my point. I've seen other religions out there so similar to " THE TRUTH" ( and I realize THE TRUTH is just a way of trying to categorize these people as they truly have no name). I know of one such group in Indiana where the Gutwein's are members. The Gutweins being some of the wealthiest people in the area. This group I believe called THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH believes they are the absolute ONLY ones going to heaven. They are so sanctimonious as to believe you can not even join their group - EVER. If you are not born into their group you will NEVER go to heaven! They have their own private cemeteries where their dead are buried and no deceased person from any other religion is allowed to be buried there! I've been "eyeballed" by some of these people in public in the grocery store a couple of times, and believe I was being discerned "against" to say the least. I was a foster child raised in the truth myself, but I now believe, as an adult, the "friends" and "workers" are basically a FUNDAMENTALIST religion. George Walker and Jack Carrol, its founders, were FUNDAMENTALISTIC in their views of the BIBLE and they founded the truth by going back to the fundamentals of the Bible and trying to teach people to live and believe according to the fundamentals of the Bible; but, I do not believe the people in the truth are the only right ones and the only ones going to heaven. (only 100,000 souls are going to heaven anyway, according to the Bible). In other words, there are other possibilities. Therefore, what they are calling TRUE .. the TRUE way, is NOT true, and is NOT the only true way. So, with truth being stranger than fiction ... which way is the ONLY right and true way? Look at nature. Nothing is absolute. Even the sun itself changes in composer over time. The weather changes. The earth changes. There is no absolute concretely "right" way and religion I believe, that is the ONLY way to ever meet God. I do believe the creator of the universe is AWESOME and great. I believe our creator designed everything, and the more man studies and educations himself/herself in especially in biology and science, they can not help but some now KNOW everything had to be designed. You look at the foot of most animals, including humans, how it works as a lever, with a pivot point, the electrical system that keeps the heart beating and the brain working, all of the tasks of the blood and blood cells, plasma etc., the liquid and gel substances in the eye that distinguish colors, and the camera-like mechanism of the eye, how the eyelashes catch dust and particles and protect the eye, and not the just the eyes of humans but also of mice and dogs and cats, etc., the digestive system, the way a body ( which is a machine in many ways) processes waste, it couldn't have all just happened by some big "bang!" It surely had to have all been designed. It's all truly amazing.
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Post by terfly4fun on Jan 30, 2015 12:20:14 GMT -5
Ok Nate. I thought George Walker studied to be a Presbyterian minister, and I thought George Walker and another man started the truth. That's what I read in a book about the so-called "2X2's" Hey, at least I haven't had anyone KILLED like Paul did. Wasn't it Paul who, before he was "saved," was so against Jesus Christ that he had people killed for being Christians? The Bible does say " .. prove all things ..." " ... search the spirits ..." and so on ... I'm looking for the TRUTH. What is REALLY true here Nate. That's all. I'm simply looking for the truth. Now, are you saying the "2x2's" go clear back to the Bible? Also, do you believe they are the ONLY ones who can be saved? In other words, is the truth, and the fellowship of "the friends" the true and ONLY way there is to come to know God and be saved?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 12:50:19 GMT -5
Anyway what God has cleansed call no one, man or woman, common or unclean including the Gentiles like us. If God be for us/ with us, who can be against us? God is the righteous judge, not man. I console myself with that thought.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 30, 2015 13:07:03 GMT -5
Ok Nate. I thought George Walker studied to be a Presbyterian minister, and I thought George Walker and another man started the truth. That's what I read in a book about the so-called "2X2's" Hey, at least I haven't had anyone KILLED like Paul did. Wasn't it Paul who, before he was"saved," was so against Jesus Christ that he had people killed for being Christians? The Bible does say " .. prove all things ..." " ... search the spirits ..." and so on ... I'm looking for the TRUTH. What is REALLY true here Nate. That's all. I'm simply looking for the truth. Now, are you saying the "2x2's" go clear back to the Bible? Also, do you believe they are the ONLY ones who can be saved? In other words, is the truth, and the fellowship of "the friends" the true and ONLY way there is to come to know God and be saved? T erfly4fun, I didn't need the book, The Secret Sect to know that the TRUTH didn't go all the back to the original disciples & apostles of Jesus.
The book did fill in a lot of blanks.
However, I had known this since I was a very young child (I am 83 next month).
My father had been in the work & I overheard him talking to my mother.
I feel a deep sorrow for those who were led to believe that did go that far back.
They should not have been deceived by people who they had so much confidence in.
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Post by terfly4fun on Jan 31, 2015 21:48:18 GMT -5
Isn't the book of I TIMOTHY, written by Paul, basically a discourse on how Paul wanted Timothy, Pastor of the church in Ephesus, to know how people must conduct themselves in the household of GOD "This is the church of the living God (I Timothy 3:15)isn't I TIMOTHY a book on how to be a great pastor?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 7:21:25 GMT -5
Isn't the book of I TIMOTHY, written by Paul, basically a discourse on how Paul wanted Timothy, Pastor of the church in Ephesus, to know how people must conduct themselves in the household of GOD "This is the church of the living God (I Timothy 3:15)isn't I TIMOTHY a book on how to be a great pastor? You can call Timothy a "Pastor of the church in Ephesus" but you make it sound like he was a Protestant style priest, officiating in a temple. Pastor, Elder, Bishop are just Greek words for people who cared for the church, or were elderly church statesmen. Timothy no doubt had much the same role as Paul. At one time Timothy was the junior partner when Paul was preaching.
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Post by faune on Feb 1, 2015 9:45:12 GMT -5
Ok Nate. I thought George Walker studied to be a Presbyterian minister, and I thought George Walker and another man started the truth. That's what I read in a book about the so-called "2X2's" Hey, at least I haven't had anyone KILLED like Paul did. Wasn't it Paul who, before he was"saved," was so against Jesus Christ that he had people killed for being Christians? The Bible does say " .. prove all things ..." " ... search the spirits ..." and so on ... I'm looking for the TRUTH. What is REALLY true here Nate. That's all. I'm simply looking for the truth. Now, are you saying the "2x2's" go clear back to the Bible? Also, do you believe they are the ONLY ones who can be saved? In other words, is the truth, and the fellowship of "the friends" the true and ONLY way there is to come to know God and be saved? T erfly4fun, I didn't need the book, The Secret Sect to know that the TRUTH didn't go all the back to the original disciples & apostles of Jesus.
The book did fill in a lot of blanks.
However, I had known this since I was a very young child (I am 83 next month).
My father had been in the work & I overheard him talking to my mother.
I feel a deep sorrow for those who were led to believe that did go that far back.
They should not have been deceived by people who they had so much confidence in.
DMG ~ I AGREE! Have you ever noticed that when folks are having a hard time defending the workers actions, they always seem to defer to making broad comparisons with churches outside of the 2x2's or society in general? Another ploy is to ask for certain statistics to back up one's argument or to downplay common knowledge among the members of the 2x2's? Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that its strange teaching of the Living Witness Doctrine has been continuously taught long after the original founder, William Irvine, was buried from view within the 2x2's original history and replaced with a whole new storyline going back to the shores of Galilee? Chapter 11 in Cherie's book on William Irvine found on TTT gives a clear picture of how the workers tried to replace Truth with Fiction for a number of years until their cover-up story became known by the world through the birth of the Internet and a wealth of information at one's fingertips. Quoted from Chapter 11 ~ “The Living Witness Doctrine he (Ed Cooney) saw as the root cause of Irvine’s defeat. For much more serious than his moral transgression was his spiritual transgression, i.e. that spirit of dominion which set him above his fellows. This spirit, Cooney believed resulted directly from the Living Witness heresy. For although God had removed Irvine from the oversight, Cooney saw that the problem was still with them For the Living Witness heresy had already divided this hitherto equal brotherhood into two classes, workers and saints or priests and laity…thus investing the workers with a power that was ungodly…So Cooney’s call to his brethren was, ‘let us return unto the Lord, and he will return unto us.’” (Life & Ministry of Edward Cooney by Patricia Roberts, p 116)" www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/11wmibook.php
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Post by faune on Feb 1, 2015 9:47:28 GMT -5
Of course, burying the memory of William Irvine also created a number of impossible questions that would need answering. ~
"THE IMPOSSIBLE QUESTIONS: Possibly the workers feared the questions that might be asked if they continued to openly acknowledge Wm. Irvine as their “spiritual father,” as they did in the beginning. Their ability to "sell" their method/way was seriously compromised. What would they tell prospective converts who were sure to ask them questions like: "When did this way start? Who was your founder? Where is Wm. Irvine now? What became of him? Why? How can this way be 'God’s Only Right Way' if the one who was given the original revelation went wrong? There simply were no satisfactory answers to questions that would show the workers' actions in a good light.
Wm. Irvine was a HUGE fly in their ointment. For a sect to have removed its founder for being immoral, a heretic, or a mental case was not consistent with the sect the founder started being "God's Only True Way." This left the workers with a dilemma. Two new schools of thought formed: (1) Restorationism: the view that God raised up Irvine to restore the true church which supposedly had died out. (2) Apostolic Successionism: the view that through untraceable lineage the workers and friends have continuously existed since the first century.
Most of the time the source of information is not a big issue. Truth is truth, regardless of the source. However, the character or integrity of a source or originator can be very significant and have a bearing on truth: (1) when the source has been denied, covered up, omitted or lied about (2) when a particular source has exceptional circumstances or claims (3) when the character of the source is intrinsic to the issue at hand The character of a Founder is intrinsic to an issue; therefore, the Founder's integrity is a legitimate concern.
For instance, evidence that John Doe has been convicted for embezzling would be a legitimate concern, if he were applying for employment as an accountant. Evidence that Jane Doe had been arrested for pedophilia or child abuse would be significant, if she were seeking employment as a teacher, nurse or child care worker.
Undesirable actions and character on the part of a church Founder who was given a special message by God IS fundamental to whether or not the method and ministry the Founder created is God's only right way. Some point out that Irvine, a man, some men or "2-3 men going wrong" does not prove the fellowship they started is "not right." That a person(s) wrong actions do not adversely affect a system or group to which the person(s) is connected. That who leaves or who stays in a particular group or system does not determine whether or not that group or system is right or wrong, good or evil, or true or false. This is true. However, the fact that one of those "2-3 men who went wrong" just happened to be the creator, originator, source and founder of the 2x2 fellowship is intrinsic to the subject.
When circumstances are exceptional, what is true in general may or may not be true universally and without qualification. Applying a general rule to a particular case with exceptional circumstances is faulty reasoning. A Founder's character and actions DO have a major effect over a system he created, when it is claimed to be God's Only Right Way. When the character of the Founder Wm. Irvine (or lack of) and his actions fall in the category of exceptional, rather than general, they should be judged accordingly.
The workers naturally wanted to head off any questions concerning Wm Irvine's removal that had the potential to cast them in a bad light. Two choices that could be effective were: (1) they could change their doctrine and eliminate the LWD (so the sect was no longer God's Only True Way and people could be saved outside of their group and there was no need for Irvine to be exceptional--so then the workers putting Irvine out wouldn't be dastardly, base, dishonorable or shameful); OR (2) they could continue the LWD and conceal the history (cover up Wm. Irvine's involvement in the movement (wipe out his memory: damnatio memoraie); and change their story about the beginning of the group).
The workers chose the easiest way. It was far easier to pretend that Wm. Irvine never existed, and their group had no known founder or history, than to answer the hard questions that were sure to come up if they didn't enagage in a massive cover-up. The cover-up was and is today intentional. Some justify the deceit with the verse, "Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves." By stamping out the memory of Irvine in their history, it would be easier to acquire more converts and more workers. Possibly, it was when they started the cover-up that the group began avoiding publicity and maintaining a very low profile, in order to avoid questions.
And today, the workers may claim to be ignorant of the past; to say that the past does not matter or hold any interest for them; that they are concerned only with their present relationship with God; that they have faith to believe it is God's Only True Way; that genealogies are not profitable, etc. to avoid hard questions concerning the founder of their sect.
Doug Parker wrote: "Irvine's role in the movement was to be ignored; young workers were told not to mention it, and so the facts of the origin and development of the nameless house church began to fall into obscurity. The true sources of preachers' authority, Wm. Irvine and the Living Witness Doctrine, were kept secret from incoming members, and a subtle emphasis on the teaching that their church was 'from the beginning' helped workers overcome the difficulty of explaining its origin
After the crisis of 1914, Irvine's fellow preachers weighed the consequences of maintaining their position within the movement against the possibility of excommunication if they were to profess loyalty for Irvine or fail to repress their knowledge of the sect's origin. Certain that they were in the 'true way,' many accepted the overseers' decision to exclude Irvine and avoided mention of his role as founder." (The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker, p. 70)"
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2015 9:53:26 GMT -5
I once asked an elder in the 2x2 system if he thought this group of people were the only ones who are right. He quickly responded " ... oh, no doubt about it ... this "way" goes clear back to the Apostles ..." " ... you see, he said, the workers of today are 'God's ambassadors,' and the friends and workers go clear back to the days of the disciples and so on ... Okay, my comment about " ... TRUTH BEING STRANGER THAN FICTION ..." concerns the fact that these well-intentioned people, many of them with very good spirits, believe the "truth" they worship in, and the "way" they live, is, in fact, THE only way to be saved and the only way to ever know the true and living God. It's my understanding George Walker studied to be a Presbyterian minister. If George Walker was " ... the chosen one ..." and " " THE TRUTH" was the ONLY way ... why did he study to be a Presbyterian minister? Why was George Walker ever a Presbyterian? That's like someone in " THE TRUTH" saying in essence " ... this truth is the ONLY way, and all other religions are " ... of the world .." " .. worldly .." " ... of the devil ..." " ... however, George Walker came from a Satanic religion called PRESBYTERIAN, and GEORGE WALKER STARTED THE TRUTH ..." In other words George Walker was Satanic as far as his religious background and training; but, at the same time he is one of " ... God's disciples ...!" Has anyone heard the old saying " a friend of my enemy is not my friend?" George's ONLY WAY Does NOT make sense. As the quotation says " ... TRUTH has no other possibilities ..." that's my point. I've seen other religions out there so similar to " THE TRUTH" ( and I realize THE TRUTH is just a way of trying to categorize these people as they truly have no name). I know of one such group in Indiana where the Gutwein's are members. The Gutweins being some of the wealthiest people in the area. This group I believe called THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH believes they are the absolute ONLY ones going to heaven. They are so sanctimonious as to believe you can not even join their group - EVER. If you are not born into their group you will NEVER go to heaven! They have their own private cemeteries where their dead are buried and no deceased person from any other religion is allowed to be buried there! I've been "eyeballed" by some of these people in public in the grocery store a couple of times, and believe I was being discerned "against" to say the least. I was a foster child raised in the truth myself, but I now believe, as an adult, the "friends" and "workers" are basically a FUNDAMENTALIST religion. George Walker and Jack Carrol, its founders, were FUNDAMENTALISTIC in their views of the BIBLE and they founded the truth by going back to the fundamentals of the Bible and trying to teach people to live and believe according to the fundamentals of the Bible; but, I do not believe the people in the truth are the only right ones and the only ones going to heaven. (only 100,000 souls are going to heaven anyway, according to the Bible). In other words, there are other possibilities. Therefore, what they are calling TRUE .. the TRUE way, is NOT true, and is NOT the only true way. So, with truth being stranger than fiction ... which way is the ONLY right and true way? Look at nature. Nothing is absolute. Even the sun itself changes in composer over time. The weather changes. The earth changes. There is no absolute concretely "right" way and religion I believe, that is the ONLY way to ever meet God. I do believe the creator of the universe is AWESOME and great. I believe our creator designed everything, and the more man studies and educations himself/herself in especially in biology and science, they can not help but some now KNOW everything had to be designed. You look at the foot of most animals, including humans, how it works as a lever, with a pivot point, the electrical system that keeps the heart beating and the brain working, all of the tasks of the blood and blood cells, plasma etc., the liquid and gel substances in the eye that distinguish colors, and the camera-like mechanism of the eye, how the eyelashes catch dust and particles and protect the eye, and not the just the eyes of humans but also of mice and dogs and cats, etc., the digestive system, the way a body ( which is a machine in many ways) processes waste, it couldn't have all just happened by some big "bang!" It surely had to have all been designed. It's all truly amazing. Truth that is stranger then the fiction we've been brought upon...William Irvine was brought to Christ through a minister who was of one of the established churches of that day. I think it was said or understood that all the other workers/friends professed through William(thatis, the beginning ones). And the beginning workers, particularly WI taught that any who profess had to come through one of the 2x2 workers. Well, if that is so...then all those beginning workers who professed through William Irvine are not true professes according to WI's own rules....and then that would come on down through the generations of workers to this day. NO ONE WORKER or FRIEND is saved because they all have become extended generations of William Irvine's, who never professed through a worker, but from a "false prophet" according to WI's own rules! Now this makes it very dangerous, IMO.....No one person is exempt from that rule and thus every one is not saved because the workers they may have come to the 2x2 religion through are not saved either according to WI's rules.....
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Post by faune on Feb 1, 2015 9:57:16 GMT -5
I feel that people really do need to "examine the foundation" of any group that calls itself the "Truth," to see if it really measures up to its claims by what is taught within the Bible; because, if Jesus is not the "real cornerstone," you have nothing but a "faulty foundation."
I have always admired Cherie's signature quote below her posts and her leading question ~ "Ask a worker who is William Irvine?
"There are just two kinds of people: One to whom Belief...is more precious than Truth, And the other to whom Truth...is more precious than Belief."
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2015 10:02:22 GMT -5
Ok Nate. I thought George Walker studied to be a Presbyterian minister, and I thought George Walker and another man started the truth. That's what I read in a book about the so-called "2X2's" Hey, at least I haven't had anyone KILLED like Paul did. Wasn't it Paul who, before he was"saved," was so against Jesus Christ that he had people killed for being Christians? The Bible does say " .. prove all things ..." " ... search the spirits ..." and so on ... I'm looking for the TRUTH. What is REALLY true here Nate. That's all. I'm simply looking for the truth. Now, are you saying the "2x2's" go clear back to the Bible? Also, do you believe they are the ONLY ones who can be saved? In other words, is the truth, and the fellowship of "the friends" the true and ONLY way there is to come to know God and be saved? T erfly4fun, I didn't need the book, The Secret Sect to know that the TRUTH didn't go all the back to the original disciples & apostles of Jesus.
The book did fill in a lot of blanks.
However, I had known this since I was a very young child (I am 83 next month).
My father had been in the work & I overheard him talking to my mother.
I feel a deep sorrow for those who were led to believe that did go that far back.
They should not have been deceived by people who they had so much confidence in.
This "deception" will mean that all the workers will be held liable for those whom they told the lies to as well as those of the oncoming generations that learn at their parents' knees! We can read in Ezekiel and other OT prophet books about the time God got very angry about the hired shepherds that were damaging the tender sheep and lambs...God tossed them out and proclaimed that they would never be considered a shepherd again but that they would be held answerable to their deeds that harmed or offended any of the flock! Then God proclaimed He'd send the True Shepherd. Nathan, please don't stop at the cross and Jesus' blood as the end of it all....the hope is buried in Jesus' resurrection and eternal life! Thank you! As I said in another post, all the workers and friends who are the succeeding generation from WI who was a Presbyterian convert did NOT come to it through a worker themselves...so the workership was polluted from the beginning and is nothing more then another manmade religion! This God will show just as He showed about the horrible hired shepherds!
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Post by faune on Feb 1, 2015 10:23:27 GMT -5
Give us an example, Terfly4fun. Bert ~ What do you think of the example I gave earlier?
This was my concluding remark:
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 1, 2015 11:33:19 GMT -5
terfly4fun: A few corrections: George Walker didnt study to be a Presbyterian minister--He was a Methodist. And George Walker and Jack Carroll didnt start the 2x2 way...Wm Irvine did, in 1897. Irvine was born and raised a Presbyterian. He studied for 2 years at the Bible Institute in Glasgow. You need to review the history again. You sound a whole lot like jetmech or terry.
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Post by placid-void on Feb 1, 2015 12:04:07 GMT -5
Good morning terfly4fun. I really appreciate the awe you express for all of the wonders of nature. And, I agree with you, “it is all truly amazing”.
You are asking probably one of the most fundamental and most challenging questions that can be posed . . . . what is “true”. As your comments suggest, your questions can have many answers depending on where you are standing or what the context of the question happens to be. If you are on the savannah and a hungry lion lies in wait, 25 yards from where you stand, it is “true” that you are in a heap of trouble. If, on the other hand, you are at the San Diego Zoo just before feeding time and standing 10-15 yards from a lion, it is “true” that you probably are not in that much danger. Same question, many of the same considerations but the context is different so the meaning of “truth” is different for those two situations.
But you are not asking about lions, you are asking about a whole religious belief system (the 2X2 fellowship) and how their beliefs about God and worshipping God agree or differ from your own beliefs. “Truth”, in this case, is much more difficult to discuss reasonably and rationally. I would like to tell you how I try to think about the questions you raise.
I begin at one centering point . . . . there are questions that arise in my consciousness for which I am “unable to know” the answer (truth).
This was a very difficult point for me to get to. For most of my life I believed with “absolute certainty” that through study, experience and social interactions there was no question to which I could not find the “right/true” answer if I searched long and hard enough. I am at a point in life now where I no longer have that “absolute certainty”.
What has been interesting for me, personally, is that by getting to the center point of accepting there are things that I am “unable to know” has been a freeing experience. I no longer feel the need to advocate for or defend against particular beliefs, rather I am able to explore more deeply my own beliefs (and amend as necessary depending on new experiences and new insights).
I used to be an avid Giants fan (NFL football team). Oh, the excuses I could come up with when my team wouldn’t make the playoffs. I am still a Giants fan but today you can be sure that I am going to be rooting like mad for the Seattle Seahawks against those bad and evil New England Patriots. And with that slight shift in focus I easily leave behind the misery of missing the playoffs and enter into the passion and joy of experiencing someone else succeed. For me it works.
I have chosen to retain my allegiance to the 2X2 Fellowship. I have not been to Sunday morning meetings for over 50 years but I absolutely cherish the values I learned and internalized in that fellowship that have been invaluable to me throughout my life. Spiritually, I am indebted to that belief-system for the consciousness that there are powers and considerations beyond my own intellect. For me it has been a good and adequate system. It has allowed me to remain “true” to myself.
Just like everyone else, I am aware that the Fellowship betrays peoples trust, abandons people, fails to meet people’s expectations, differs from peoples personal convictions, hopes or dreams. Were it otherwise for all people at all times, I doubt it would be necessary to question what is “truth”, the answer would be self-evident.
It comes down to another quote:
This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man. Shakespeare’s Hamlet
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2015 14:28:10 GMT -5
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Post by terfly4fun on Feb 1, 2015 16:04:42 GMT -5
American history goes back approximately 239 years. My ex-wife is from Iran. She pointed out to me once that Iranian history goes back 10,000 + years. There are cooking recipes in Iran that have been passed down for thousands of years and can't be found in any cook book. Look at Chinese history ... which goes back even further. Has anyone read the writings of Confucius ... written before Christ was even born? Some of the things Christ said had already been said by Confucius. Anyone can do an online search for similar quotations of Christ and Confucius. If someone can prove to me that there were gospel meetings and workers before and during the time of confucius I will go back to meeting ... profess ... and I'll be more loyal that George Walker was!
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Post by snow on Feb 1, 2015 16:56:52 GMT -5
American history goes back approximately 239 years. My ex-wife is from Iran. She pointed out to me once that Iranian history goes back 10,000 + years. There are cooking recipes in Iran that have been passed down for thousands of years and can't be found in any cook book. Look at Chinese history ... which goes back even further. Has anyone read the writings of Confucius ... written before Christ was even born? Some of the things Christ said had already been said by Confucius. Anyone can do an online search for similar quotations of Christ and Confucius. If someone can prove to me that there were gospel meetings and workers before and during the time of confucius I will go back to meeting ... profess ... and I'll be more loyal that George Walker was! Very little that Jesus taught hadn't already been said by other world masters like Confucius and the Buddha, Krishna. Even Plato.
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Post by snow on Feb 1, 2015 22:13:49 GMT -5
Very little that Jesus taught hadn't already been said by other world masters like Confucius and the Buddha, Krishna. Even Plato. Confucius, Buddha, Krishna, even Plato, etc... have ever said this, "I am the Way, the Truth and Life, no MAN comes to the Father/God but through me." Only Jesus has said it. Jesus is the ONLY person was raised/resurrected from the dead after 3 days and nights in the grave.Actually, no Nathan, Jesus is not the first and only that is said to have died, been resurrected. That is what all the dying/rising godmen have in common. Maybe no one said they were the way the truth and the life because no one had that kind of ego? So no, Jesus is not special for what he said and much of what he said had been said before.
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Post by snow on Feb 1, 2015 22:37:51 GMT -5
Actually, no Nathan, Jesus is not the first and only that is said to have died, been resurrected. That is what all the dying/rising godmen have in common. Maybe no one said they were the way the truth and the life because no one had that kind of ego? So no, Jesus is not special for what he said and much of what he said had been said before. It wasn't Jesus ego, but he was telling the TRUTH. So, can you name any religious leader died and raised from the dead after 3 nights and walked, eat, with his disciples and raised to the sky like Jesus did. Thanks.The whole concept of the dying rising 'godman' was part of the Jewish and Hellenistic mindset. Even Herod in the bible thinks that Jesus is John the Baptist so it is not difficult to understand where the concept arose. Each one of the many had different things they were said to have done, but they all had one thing in common and that was that they died and rose again. You believe Jesus is the only one that is true because you believe in Christianity. But you can't deny that the Jewish culture were quite comfortable believing in reincarnation etc. Here is what King Herod had to say about Jesus ministry. It proves they believed it was possible before the death of Jesus. Those who wrote the gospels added the resurrection after the fact. King Herod heard of [the ministry of Jesus], for His name had become well known; and people were saying, “John the Baptist has risen from the dead, and that is why these miraculous powers are at work in Him.” But others were saying, “He is Elijah.” And others were saying, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old.” But when Herod heard of it, he kept saying, “John, whom I beheaded, has risen!” (Mark 6:14–16)
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 1, 2015 23:47:46 GMT -5
1) So, you don't know of any religious man died, and resurrected after 3 days like Jesus did, right?
Yes, There are at least 10 of them. Old pagan idea long before Jesus.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 2, 2015 0:44:15 GMT -5
Yes, There are at least 10 of them. Old pagan idea long before Jesus.
Can you give like 3 names, so I can check out their stories and get back to you. Thanks. "In comparative mythology, the related motifs of a dying god and of a dying-and-rising god (also known as a death-rebirth-deity) have appeared in diverse cultures.[1][2] In the more commonly accepted motif of a dying god, the deity goes away and does not return.[2] The less than widely accepted motif of a dying-and-rising god refers to a deity which returns, is resurrected or is reborn, in either a literal or symbolic sense.[2][3][4][5][6]
Beginning in the 19th century, a number of gods who would fit these motifs were proposed.[3] Male examples include the ancient Near Eastern and Greek deities Baal,[7] Melqart,[8] Adonis,[9] Eshmun,[10] Tammuz,[11] Ra, Osiris,[12] Jesus, and Dionysus.[13] Female examples include Inanna/Ishtar, Persephone,[14] and Bari" wiki
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 2, 2015 2:55:51 GMT -5
"In comparative mythology, the related motifs of a dying god and of a dying-and-rising god (also known as a death-rebirth-deity) have appeared in diverse cultures.[1][2] In the more commonly accepted motif of a dying god, the deity goes away and does not return.[2] The less than widely accepted motif of a dying-and-rising god refers to a deity which returns, is resurrected or is reborn, in either a literal or symbolic sense.[2][3][4][5][6]
Beginning in the 19th century, a number of gods who would fit these motifs were proposed.[3] Male examples include the ancient Near Eastern and Greek deities Baal,[7] Melqart,[8] Adonis,[9] Eshmun,[10] Tammuz,[11] Ra, Osiris,[12] Jesus, and Dionysus.[13] Female examples include Inanna/Ishtar, Persephone,[14] and Bari" wiki
Baal is Satan... Ra, Osiris, Ishtar, Dionysus... fallen angels= gods of the underworld... copy cats.... MYTHOLOGY!
Jesus is NOT a myth! He is Immanuel means God with us. He lived and died as a God/Man. There is no comparison! Satan and the fallen angels are ONE kingdom below Jesus/Yahweh God. Jesus is the Creator of ALL the good angels, Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels.
Well, I'm so glad that you have that all figured out, Nathan!
Since Jesus came after all the rest, I would have thought that HE was the "copy cat"
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Post by snow on Feb 2, 2015 11:37:47 GMT -5
The whole concept of the dying rising 'godman' was part of the Jewish and Hellenistic mindset. Even Herod in the bible thinks that Jesus is John the Baptist so it is not difficult to understand where the concept arose. Each one of the many had different things they were said to have done, but they all had one thing in common and that was that they died and rose again. You believe Jesus is the only one that is true because you believe in Christianity. But you can't deny that the Jewish culture were quite comfortable believing in reincarnation etc. Here is what King Herod had to say about Jesus ministry. It proves they believed it was possible before the death of Jesus. Those who wrote the gospels added the resurrection after the fact. King Herod heard of [the ministry of Jesus], for His name had become well known; and people were saying, “John the Baptist has risen from the dead, and that is why these miraculous powers are at work in Him.” But others were saying, “He is Elijah.” And others were saying, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old.” But when Herod heard of it, he kept saying, “John, whom I beheaded, has risen!” (Mark 6:14–16) 1) So, you don't know of any religious man died, and resurrected after 3 days like Jesus did, right?
Where did you get that from. All of the dying rising Godmen did exactly what Jesus did. Died and then rose again, spent some time with their disciples, then went on to rule in their individual heavens. It's not a new or unique story. So you call it resurrection instead of reincarnation?
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Post by snow on Feb 2, 2015 11:42:16 GMT -5
"In comparative mythology, the related motifs of a dying god and of a dying-and-rising god (also known as a death-rebirth-deity) have appeared in diverse cultures.[1][2] In the more commonly accepted motif of a dying god, the deity goes away and does not return.[2] The less than widely accepted motif of a dying-and-rising god refers to a deity which returns, is resurrected or is reborn, in either a literal or symbolic sense.[2][3][4][5][6]
Beginning in the 19th century, a number of gods who would fit these motifs were proposed.[3] Male examples include the ancient Near Eastern and Greek deities Baal,[7] Melqart,[8] Adonis,[9] Eshmun,[10] Tammuz,[11] Ra, Osiris,[12] Jesus, and Dionysus.[13] Female examples include Inanna/Ishtar, Persephone,[14] and Bari" wiki
Baal is Satan... Ra, Osiris, Ishtar, Dionysus... fallen angels= gods of the underworld... copy cats.... MYTHOLOGY!
Jesus is NOT a myth! He is Immanuel means God with us. He lived and died as a God/Man. There is no comparison! Satan and the fallen angels are ONE kingdom below Jesus/Yahweh God. Jesus is the Creator of ALL the good angels, Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels. Baal was worshiped by the Jews at one point and was the God of Fertility. Tell my how they can be copy cats when they came BEFORE Jesus? The Christian religion is the copycat. Read an article the other day about this saying that yes there were myths that were similar but Jesus story was a real myth. Really? The early church knew this was going to be a hard sell to the pagans. They even went as far as to try to say that the devil caused all those earlier religions to have the same story in order to make the Jesus story look like a copy cat religion and a myth. That's really grasping.
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Post by snow on Feb 2, 2015 11:44:07 GMT -5
Where did you get that from. All of the dying rising Godmen did exactly what Jesus did. Died and then rose again, spent some time with their disciples, then went on to rule in their individual heavens. It's not a new or unique story. So you call it resurrection instead of reincarnation? Resurrection is NOT reincarnation. Resurrection comes back in the same body. Reincarnation the soul comes back in a different body.The way King Herod defines it, it's not resurrection it's reincarnation. The story of the Resurrection is pagan in origin and not a Jewish concept.
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